Re: Any comments? (Deconstructing WBC)

Chuck Stevens wrote:
> "LX-i" <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote in message
>  news:4e12c$44209c32$45491d7a$12452@KNOLO
GY.NET...
> 
>
> Presuming you're referring to the WBC, I too disagree with these folks.  T
he
> dilemma is that they have *exactly* the same constitutional right to
> practice and to express their beliefs as you do your own, *and* to declare
> that anyone who disagree with them deserves physical death and is worthy o
f
> eternal torment.

This is true.  It's  that exercising our right to kick their butts up
and down the sidewalk would probably land us in jail.  :(  I'm not
disputing their right to do what they do.  However, in the case of folks
like this, I have a few problems...

First, they're using the name of my particular religious denomination.
I'm a member of Eastmont Baptist Church, and I've been leading music the
last few months at Wares Ferry Road Baptist Church.  The beliefs of both
these congregations are nowhere near those of the Westboro Baptist
Church - but by the name, who knows?

Next, these WBC jokers have the Bible.  Yet, they're willingly twisting
it to support their own hateful views.  Many times, a religion focused
on one aspect of Christianity discards the context for their proof texts.

Just because I'm leaving tomorrow for the rest of the month (and
therefore will see everyone's responses almost two ws from now),
let's deconstruct each of their points, gleaned from the home page at
http://www.godhatesfags.com/ .  (For those reading, and don't want the
point-by-point stuff for fear that it'll be to proselytizing ;), it's
indented - just skip past it.)  Also, some of these refutations apply to
more than one of their points - I'll not mention them multiple times

- "Sodomy is an abominable sin, worthy of death"  The verse they quote
is from Leviticus (the old law), and they quote Paul from Romans also
referring to this law.  These aren't misquotes, but taken out of
context.  Proverbs 20:16-19
[url]http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs%206%20:16-19;&version=9;[/url
]
lists 7 abmoniations to the Lord - homosexuality (or just sodomy, as
they claim) is not listed among these.  Why not godhatesliars or
godhatesmurderers?

- "God hates all workers of iniquity"  I'm not so sure they'd be so
vehement about this one if they turned over to Romans 3:10 - "There is
*none* righteous, no, not one..." (emphasis mine)  If God hates all
workers of iniquity, He must hate us *all*!

- "Jesus Christ died only for those who believe"  Their supporting
verse for this is, believe it or not, John 3:16.  They're focusing on
the latter part of the verse, that says "that whosoever believeth in
Him..."  But this is not consistent with the interpretation given later
in the New Testament.  Revelation 22:17 specifically says "And whoseover
will, let him take of the water of life freely."  Christ died, and
offers His atonement for anyone who will accept it.

- "Only God's Elect have the capability to believe"  Election and
predestination date back to Calvin.  Several times, this concept of
God's Elect is mentioned, mostly in the New Testament; it follows the
thought process along the lines of "since God is omniscient, He knows
who will be saved and who will not; if He knows they will be saved, then
they will be; therefore, I have no responsibility for sharing the Gospel
with them."  Some (as WBC does) take it to the next step - "since *I* am
part of the elect and *they* obviously are not, they are less than me."
This isn't a proper view - rather, Jesus told His disciples to "go ye
into *all* the world and preach the gospel to every creature" (Acts 1:8,
emphasis mine).  Also, as John is setting the stage for his gospel, he
writes "But as many as received Him..."  Election does not equal no
responsibility - rather, election equals *more* responsibility.

- "Sodomites are proud of their sin ("Gay Pride")...and you can't
repent of something you're proud of"  Leaving aside the sweeping
generalities of "all sodomites are proud" (they're not) and not
repenting of something you're proud of (an experience I have had with
some code I wrote)...  In their support Scriptures, they cite several
passages where God declares His judgment on unrepentant peoples.  The
easiest refutation of this is the story of Ninevah - a proud, heathen
society that Jonah ran away from, and preached to not thinking they
could ever repent, ended up repenting and following the Lord.  This also
violates the principle that Paul sets up in Romans 12:19 - "vengeance is
Mine: I will repay, saith the Lord".  It is not up to us to decide to
write off anyone.

- This next one is big, so I'm breaking it up...
- "The sodomites only hope is to have the unambiguous truth
preached to them"  OK, I'm with them on this one so far.  Romans 10:17
says "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."
- Back to the WBC quote - "and perhaps God will soften their hearts
and grant them repentance to depart from their sin and name the name of
Christ"  Here's where they start going off-track with this one.  The
order is backwards - come to Christ, *then* work on your life after
that.  Throughout Jesus' ministry, He was a "come as you are"
evangelist.  4-time divorcee living with a 5th man?  Come.  (John
4:7-29)  Stealing money from people under the pretense of collecting
taxes?  Come.  (Luke 19:1-10)  Demon-possessed prostitute?  Come.  (Luke
7:36-50)  (This last one - a cross-comparison of the gospels indicates
that this was Mary Magdelene, who had been both a prostitute, and demon
possessed at one time.)
- One more WBC visit...  "Not very likely, though, since God has
given them up"  Their support of this is Romans 1:24-28, which is part
of Paul's anti-homosexuality treatise at the beginning of the letter.
This could apply to some, but definitely does not apply to all - and, in
Paul's letter, he addressed all forms of moral depravity, not just
homosexuality.  Again, the key word in that verse is *God* - He's the
one that's supposed to do the "giving up", if there's any to be done.

- The last one - yay!
- "There is a hell where all impenitent sinners will reside for all
eternity"  Funny how when they get to the bottom of their list, they
actually start making more sense than when they started.  *This* part of
the statement is biblical.
- "That includes sodomites (called "dogs")"  This is wrong.  The
basis of who gets into heaven and who gets into hell is *not* based on
whether they were queer or not.  It is solely based on their acceptance
of Jesus' atonement for their sins.  Revelation 21:27 - "And there shall
in no wise enter into it...but they which are written in the Lamb's book
of life."  Also, sodomies are *not* called dogs *anywhere* in the Bible.
Back to Revelation 22 - verse 15 says "For without are dogs, and
sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever
loveth and maketh a lie."  Nowhere is the word "dogs" associated with
any particular breed of sinner.

- - - End of point-by-point - - -

As you can see, there is much in the Bible that they have disregarded.
Through their willful twisting of the Scripture, they give Christians
(and Baptists) a bad name.  But, believe it or not, the Bible has
something to say about people who do what they're doing as well.  I'll
cite Revelation 22:18-19...

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of
this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto
him the plagues that are written in this book: and if any man shall take
away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away
his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the
things which are written in this book."

God doesn't take too kindly to His Word being tinkered with...
 
>
> You're most welcome.   I hold that nobody who dies in the service of our
> country deserves less.

I don't really have a response for that - I just quoted it because it
was so well-said.  :)

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"Who is more irrational?  A man who believes in a God he doesn't see, or
a man who's offended by a God he doesn't believe in?" - Brad Stine