Belief in Santa

On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 20:10:34 -0600, "Judson McClendon"
<judmc@sunvaley0.com> wrote:

>If you assume the Bible is correct, then
>there can be no evidence to demonstrate it to be false, because God could,
>by definition, do anything, so any "evidence" we found could simply be a
>Devine artifact.

True.   But we could show that it doesn't agree with what we observe
or with what we understand of logic.   An omnipotent being can
magically make two contradictory Biblical statements both *true* - but
what does that mean?

> There's no way we could tell. But the reverse is not true.
>If you assume the Bible to be false, there *can* be evidence of Creation,
>either by the expedient of showing that no other explaination makes sense,
>or by finding some phenomena that has no other explaination. This is a
>perfectly logical and correct definition, here. If you intend to refute it,
>you have to do so by showing a logical flaw

If we don't know an answer, this does not mean your particular answer
is True.   Why not some other religion's answer?   Why not Santa
Claus?

Speaking of which - There are a *lot* of Santa Claus movies where the
apparent object is to tell us how important it is to believe in him.
Apparently parents don't believe in him, despite the fact that
presents appear magically - but the important part of the movies is
that belief in Santa is important.

This bothers me.   Why is it important that people believe in Santa?

> Why is it important that people believe in Santa?

I can see 'reasons':

Social Control - children have to be good if they believe that Santa
gives the presents and can know whether they are being good or not (cf
religions where 'reward' is at end of life).

Commercial - parents are induced to compete leading to retailers being
in heaven.

Training ground - building simple belief mechanisms in young that lead
to religious beliefs later. Well that certainly worked for Judson.

Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 20:10:34 -0600, "Judson McClendon"
> <judmc@sunvaley0.com> wrote:
> 
>
> True.   But we could show that it doesn't agree with what we observe
> or with what we understand of logic.   An omnipotent being can
> magically make two contradictory Biblical statements both *true* - but
> what does that mean?

That suicide is the best option? If a god could make true two opposites
at one and the same time then there is no logical consistency to the
universe. In such circumstances, as one can not build upon ones'
knowledge and experience, there would be no point to existence.
Therefore suicide is the best option, unless one can change one's god
for another?


> 
>
> If we don't know an answer, this does not mean your particular answer
> is True.   Why not some other religion's answer?   Why not Santa
> Claus?
>
> Speaking of which - There are a *lot* of Santa Claus movies where the
> apparent object is to tell us how important it is to believe in him.
> Apparently parents don't believe in him, despite the fact that
> presents appear magically - but the important part of the movies is
> that belief in Santa is important.
>
> This bothers me.   Why is it important that people believe in Santa?

"Alistair" <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1134596941.681035.69020@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Howard Brazee wrote: 
>
> That suicide is the best option? If a god could make true two opposites
> at one and the same time then there is no logical consistency to the
> universe. In such circumstances, as one can not build upon ones'
> knowledge and experience, there would be no point to existence.
> Therefore suicide is the best option, unless one can change one's god
> for another?

There is no "best option". Or maybe there is. You simply cannot make
rational decisions in a logically inconsistent universe. Or maybe you can.
Any decision you make will be based on logic, which now doesn't hold. Or
maybe it does. Maybe upon commiting suicide, your normal expectations of
life and death will turn out to be wrong, and you will be in a worse
situation after the suicide than you were before it. Or maybe not.

- Oliver, or someone else.

"Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net> wrote in message
 news:e0d0q1l57lssha5sa24l7r0g5sddq2fi8g@
4ax.com...
> On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 20:10:34 -0600, "Judson McClendon"
> <judmc@sunvaley0.com> wrote:
>
<snip>>
> This bothers me.   Why is it important that people believe in Santa?

I think this is an excellent question.

Apart from the obvious answers about holding something over kids so they
will behave and commercialism in retail stores, I think all of us pine when
we lose our innocence and realise that there is no tooth fairy or Santa
Claus. We somehow feel that if we encourage our kids as long as possible,
their age of innocence will last a little longer and they will be protected
from grim reality for a while further.

The idea of the Santa story touches a place in our "evil" (if Judson is to
be believed...) hearts, and we WANT some kindness and goodness. (I know...
it's contradictory if we are truly evil, but I don't believe we are...)

If belief in Santa Claus causes a little more kindness, a little more
"goodwill towards men", how can it be bad?

The answer is that it is bad because we are lying to our children and lying
is always bad. (Sometimes you may remain silent, but don't lie...)

This is just one of the many dilemmas parenthood presents. (It is no wonder
parents are stressed... :-))

I believe there may be a "middle path" here....(c.f. Buddhist belief...)

Tell kids the story of Saint Nicholas of Smyrna and explain why what he did
was so good. (TRUE)

Tell them that presents are left for good kids in memory of this, and the
legend goes that Saint Nick brings them in a sled with reindeer and gets in
the house down the chimney. (Don't frighten little kids whose house doesn't
have a chimney, and when they ask how he does it; it's supposed to be
"magic".) (TRUE).

Tell them about the Nativity as well. It's a pretty good story... no room in
the inn, wise men, star etc. making the point that many people believe in
the divinity of the baby born at this time (and many others don't), and that
it doesn't really matter as long as we are good to each other. (TRUE as far
as possible).

Tell them that we have a custom, in memory of these stories. We spend this
time thinking about those less fortunate than ourselves, and trying to make
life a bit better for all people. As a mark of this we exchange presents
with our friends and family, but not just them if we can manage  to go
further.  (TRUE)

Then sit down and get them to think of someone they consider less fortunate
than themselves who they might like to get a present for. The emphasis is
not about getting or giving presents, it is about considering others,
WITHOUT looking down on them or feeling smug or superior...recognising that
any of us can be in any condition any time.

Older kids can be encouraged to discuss why the "Christmas Spirit" shouldn't
pertain all year...

Just some thoughts...

Pete.

ROFL! Great post, Oliver. Loved it!

Pete.

TOP POST nothing more from me below...

"Oliver Wong" <owong@castortech.com> wrote in message
news:QFiof.568$lv3.159@clgrps12...
>
> "Alistair" <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1134596941.681035.69020@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... 
>
>    There is no "best option". Or maybe there is. You simply cannot make
> rational decisions in a logically inconsistent universe. Or maybe you can.
> Any decision you make will be based on logic, which now doesn't hold. Or
> maybe it does. Maybe upon commiting suicide, your normal expectations of
> life and death will turn out to be wrong, and you will be in a worse
> situation after the suicide than you were before it. Or maybe not.
>
>    - Oliver, or someone else.
>

"Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:40el1cF19dvm9U1@individual.net...
>
> "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net> wrote in message
>  news:e0d0q1l57lssha5sa24l7r0g5sddq2fi8g@
4ax.com... 
> <snip>> 
>
> I think this is an excellent question.
>
> Apart from the obvious answers about holding something over kids so they
> will behave and commercialism in retail stores, I think all of us pine
> when we lose our innocence and realise that there is no tooth fairy or
> Santa Claus. We somehow feel that if we encourage our kids as long as
> possible, their age of innocence will last a little longer and they will
> be protected from grim reality for a while further.
>
> The idea of the Santa story touches a place in our "evil" (if Judson is to
> be believed...) hearts, and we WANT some kindness and goodness. (I know...
> it's contradictory if we are truly evil, but I don't believe we are...)
>
> If belief in Santa Claus causes a little more kindness, a little more
> "goodwill towards men", how can it be bad?
>
> The answer is that it is bad because we are lying to our children and
> lying is always bad. (Sometimes you may remain silent, but don't lie...)
>
> This is just one of the many dilemmas parenthood presents. (It is no
> wonder parents are stressed... :-))
>
> I believe there may be a "middle path" here....(c.f. Buddhist belief...)
>
> Tell kids the story of Saint Nicholas of Smyrna and explain why what he
> did was so good. (TRUE)
>
> Tell them that presents are left for good kids in memory of this, and the
> legend goes that Saint Nick brings them in a sled with reindeer and gets
> in the house down the chimney. (Don't frighten little kids whose house
> doesn't have a chimney, and when they ask how he does it; it's supposed to
> be "magic".) (TRUE).
>
> Tell them about the Nativity as well. It's a pretty good story... no room
> in the inn, wise men, star etc. making the point that many people believe
> in the divinity of the baby born at this time (and many others don't), and
> that it doesn't really matter as long as we are good to each other. (TRUE
> as far as possible).
>
> Tell them that we have a custom, in memory of these stories. We spend this
> time thinking about those less fortunate than ourselves, and trying to
> make life a bit better for all people. As a mark of this we exchange
> presents with our friends and family, but not just them if we can manage
> to go further.  (TRUE)
>
> Then sit down and get them to think of someone they consider less
> fortunate than themselves who they might like to get a present for. The
> emphasis is not about getting or giving presents, it is about considering
> others, WITHOUT looking down on them or feeling smug or
> superior...recognising that any of us can be in any condition any time.
>
> Older kids can be encouraged to discuss why the "Christmas Spirit"
> shouldn't pertain all year...
>
> Just some thoughts...

Sounds like good advice, and one that I will probably apply (since I
very much don't like the idea of lying, even in the context of the existence
of Santa Claus to little children). I don't know the story of Saint Nicholas
of Smyrna though, so that'll probably be something I have to look up by the
time I start having kids.

While reading this, I tried to visualize how I could avoid lying, and
yet avoid revealing the "truth" about Santa Claus, but it seemed like I
would be digging myself into a deeper and deeper hole very, very quickly:

My child: "Is Santa Claus Real?"
Me: "Some people believe in Santa Claus. Personally, I don't."
Child: "Then where do the presents under the tree come from?"
Me: "Erm... Well, I have a theory about that, but I don't think your
mother would approve of me telling you."
Child: "Why not?"
Me: "Uh... does it really matter? Let's look at the expected utility of
believing in Santa Claus versus not. [pulls out various bar charts and
graphs, hoping to dissuade further questions]"

- Oliver

Oliver,

I have amended your dialogue below a little... Hope this helps... :-)

"Oliver Wong" <owong@castortech.com> wrote in message
news:mFDof.2074$ic1.1436@edtnps90...

>
>    While reading this, I tried to visualize how I could avoid lying, and
> yet avoid revealing the "truth" about Santa Claus, but it seemed like I
> would be digging myself into a deeper and deeper hole very, very quickly:
>
>    My child: "Is Santa Claus Real?"
Me: "Many people believe so. There certainly was a Saint Nicholas who was
kind and good to unfortunate people, especially children. [Next bit depends
on the age of the child... you might simply tell the story of the 4th
century Bishop of Smyrna, or you might encourage some internet searching and
let the child tell you the facts. No lying is involved and no personal
opinions are unnecessarily expressed :-)] After that you can explain that
some of our Christmas customs are done in memory of that... Santa in the
stores represents Saint Nick.

>    Me: "Some people believe in Santa Claus. Personally, I don't."[personal
> opinions are best avoided; let the child decide... :-)]
>    Child: "Then where do the presents under the tree come from?"
[again, depends on the mental age of the child... There are cards on the
presents, and children should be encouraged to place their own presents to
others under the tree. For very young children who put out a stocking and
find it filled, you could say: "Maybe there is a Spirit of Saint Nicholas
that ensures good children get presents. Some people believe he visits every
house and leaves presents for good children. I'm sure it is something you
will find out about as you get older." The point here is that "wanting to
know" is the child's problem, not yours, and just because a question is
asked does not mean it has to be answered definitively...and certainly not
answered by you... :-)

>    Me: "Erm... Well, I have a theory about that, but I don't think your
> mother would approve of me telling you."[ This gets you into real hot
> water... :-)]
I realise you were joking when you wrote this and what follows... :-)

>    Child: "Why not?"
>    Me: "Uh... does it really matter? Let's look at the expected utility of
> believing in Santa Claus versus not. [pulls out various bar charts and
> graphs, hoping to dissuade further questions]"
>

I think it is important to encourage kids to question all things, and to
think about their own solutions. Give them honest unbiased information at a
level they can understand, without lying. The "Spirit of Saint Nick"
mentioned above does not have to be a phantasm; as long as we go along with
the idea (and most of us do) it is true. They should also be told it is
important not to pass their knowledge on to other (especially younger) kids,
but to let them have the fun and achievement of working out the riddle of
Christmas for themselves...

DISCLAIMER:

The author has no children. Any advice is given on a "best attempt" basis
with all care but no responsibility for trauma suffered by the children or
parents concerned. Take this advice at your own risk.

(Having said that, I DO have a number of nephews and nieces and other kids
who see me as their "uncle", and all of them are very glad to spend time
with me. :-))

Pete.

Pete Dashwood wrote:
> "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net> wrote in message
>  news:e0d0q1l57lssha5sa24l7r0g5sddq2fi8g@
4ax.com...
> 
>
> <snip>>
> 
>
>
> I think this is an excellent question.
>
> Apart from the obvious answers about holding something over kids so they
> will behave and commercialism in retail stores, I think all of us pine whe
n
> we lose our innocence and realise that there is no tooth fairy or Santa
> Claus. We somehow feel that if we encourage our kids as long as possible,
> their age of innocence will last a little longer and they will be protecte
d
> from grim reality for a while further.
>

I told my kids that if they were really good, thy got to *become* santa,
and so far I have found it to be true.

Donald

Pete Dashwood wrote:
> Oliver,
>
>
> DISCLAIMER:
>
> The author has no children. Any advice is given on a "best attempt" basis
> with all care but no responsibility for trauma suffered by the children or
> parents concerned. Take this advice at your own risk.
>
> (Having said that, I DO have a number of nephews and nieces and other kids
> who see me as their "uncle", and all of them are very glad to spend time
> with me. :-))
>
> Pete.

As an atheist with no offspring of my own I have always thought that
the best thing to do was to vehemently spout the pro-Santa story even
when the child offers evidence to the contrary (usually something to do
with the absurdity of believing in faster than light travel). It's more
fun that way.