OT: Iraq

Judson McClendon wrote:
>
> I didn't mean to imply that I thought Fox News was perfect, I only said th
ey
> had a balance of liberal and conservative opinion. What you both to fail t
o
> understand is that you have been exposed to extreme liberal bias in the
> media so consistently and for so long, that you don't even have a correct
> mental picture of what conservatives are really about. All you ever see
> portrayed is distorted caricatures. You receive no balancing conservative
> viewpoints, because they were simply not out there until Fox News came
> along, imperfect as it is. And by then, your mental images were so
> influenced by liberal bias, that every conservative viewpoint you hear see
ms
> biased to you.
<snip>

Judson,

Much, much too long to respond in detail with a tit for tat - and
besides which it doesn't change people's thoughts.

My own political catharsis. Brought up in N. London, the first child of
blue-collar workers, Irish immigrants. The Thirties were tough for
everybody in the world. Educated by my parents saving like mad to send
me to a catholic 'grammar' school rather than finish at an elementary.
They never espoused political thought, but Labour (Socialists) had an
appeal to them - supporting the working man. My very first vote in the
RAF - I went for Winston, the war hero. I told my parents, they were
shocked but never made a judgment.

My new found adult experiences exposed me to the snobbishness and
hypocrisy that existed in the military - just an extension of
Establishment thinking that the gentry were the only ones who should be
in charge. There are plenty of 'officers' in the military, but certainly
a shortage of 'gentlemen'.

Not even a concrete awareness, but I didn't favour Labour, they had some
bright ex-university types but too much influence from 'uneducated'
vocal trade union leaders, "Oon-acustomhed as Ah am to spekin' in
publick, Ah sez we gotta ....". A gross distorted characterization - but
an attempt to convey my reaction. Similarly Conservatives - partially
covered above, but that snotty attitude that they should be in charge
and, "Oh deary, deary me why are you poor folks so want to doing so much
complaining....". Didn't care for that either. So without a deliberate
move I became a centrist in political thought, borrowing ideas from both
Right and Left as I saw fit. There is after all no black and white in
life. So politically for me, and though considerably too small in
numbers to be effective in Parliament, I put my hat on the Liberals.

I'm still of that centrist view over here and regularly vote Liberal
both federally and provincially. But I would dearly like to see Paul
Martin and the current set get the boot in January - we just need a
bloody change of team, fresh ideas, fresh approach etc., even if for
only six months. Maggie Thatcher 12 or 13 years, same with Tony Blair,
and from Chretien onwards, I believe our Liberals here have had a
12-year stint. I will still vote Liberal come January; won't make a damn
bit of difference, a fellow-catholic Jason Kennedy will still get the
conservative seat he already holds and unless a thunderbolt descends
from the sky - we will still finish up with a Liberal minority
government in Ottawa - Back to Square One.

Now before you jump in - don't go quoting me on your two-term maximum
for a president. You have an obsessiveness down there for writing
everything down in a book and dotting the i's and crossing the t's. Want
to change anything, folks keep coming back at you with quotes from the
nth amendment to the Constitution, why you can or can't. It isn't a dig
at J4 - but the COBOL specification is conceived in a similar fashion as
an ANSI 'subsidiary'. Given a parliamentary form of government with the
simple mechanism of a vote of no confidence in the ruling party, given
current poll ratings, Dubya would already be out on his ear.

Some 50% of Americans would be dismayed, but the remainder of the
population and the rest of the world, "Good riddance". I could suggest
he is mentally-challenged - more clearly he is both stubborn and stupid,
even though his 'folksy' style is that of the cunning fox in amongst the
hens.

Above my route to political beliefs. Now to your suggestion that Peter
and I are two virgins seduced by a Liberal media.

Firstly whether you are an entrepreneur or a 'performer' (newspaper
columnist or anchor man/woman sat in front of a camera) the prime
objective is to make money and show a profit. You get nowhere if your
product can't capture an audience, i.e. generate incoming revenue from
advertising spots. Now I find it extremely difficult to accept that
fellow-minded liberals, their minds already made up, planned and
deliberately started the various networks ABC, CNN, whatever. Same sort
of thing goes for PBS which Republicans love to hate and try and reduce
public funding. Same sort of mix in Canada with independent networks and
UK with it's ITV etc. But Canada and UK have their 'independent'
government funded CBC and BBC respectively. I think it's the same down
in Oz with ABC.

Fox obviously appeals to a segment of the population that likes its
message; people who like what they are hearing - it seems so close to
their own perceptions. We often joke up here about 'ignorant Yanks'.
Somebody coming across the border near Vancouver and asking for a map of
downtown Canada. Some arriving with skis in July. And only last night
over a nice Christmas meal at a chicken joint called Swiss Chalet, an
acquaintance said he was appalled down in Georgia, possibly at a gas
station, when in response to telling the man he was from Canada, got the
reaction, "Canada ? Oh that's somewhere up north isn't it ?". Without
doubt there must be some Canucks in the same vein - but you do appear to
have a preponderance. Whether Fox or CNN, not too difficult to guage
that these intellectual bright bulbs can get sucked in by a message.

I rarely watch CBC, can't figure it out, but somehow doesn't fit my
needs. Most times I'm looking at US channels, primarily for
documentaries and decent exciting or uplifting movies. Only occasionally
do I watch your news programmes - particularly during Gulf War II - but
I really started to get bored with the constant repetitive message of
embedded correspondents. And as for watching a camera mounted on the
front of a car where the 'brave souls' inside were going up a long
stretch of apparently dangerous road for some thirty minutes - Well ! As
an outsider looking in on the goldfish bowl I haven't sensed the US
public being duped by an evil liberal media. But as both Peter and I
mentioned we certainly saw that being done on extracts from Fox with
Anne Coulter and that bombastic re-incarnation of Joe McCarthy - and I
still can't remember his damn name.

First off, the message we get up here is that you conservatives
(Republicans) are in charge of the airwaves (radio). The likes of Rush
Limbaugh or whatever his name is. But again a message is being trotted
out that appeals to the particular listening audience.

Newspapers. Have no knowledge of how they operate in the States. A
little refreshing here in Canada. Canadian Conrad Black; aka Lord Black
of Coldharbour, dressed in his ermine robes, had to forgo his Canadian
citizenship to get the UK title, firstly trying to sue Chretien for not
allowing a Canuck to have a UK title, then actually gets it from a
Socialist Prime Minister in 10 Downing Street ! (I do hope the courts in
Illinois or Chicago put him away for his hanky-panky with
Hollinger/Hollinger International). Dear Conrad successfully started up
a paper in Canada and eventually finished up owning all the ones that
mattered. An Anglophile he set up residence in UK and acquired the Daily
Telegraph group. He in turn sold his Canadian interests to an avowed
Liberal, Izzy Asper; Israel is now dead and his son Leonard runs the
show, Canwest with TV affiliates.

Newspapering - to make money. The Calgary Herald is part of that Liberal
owned group. Many moons ago the paper had as its editor an Irishman,
suitably supported by his young feisty local lass, (born in UK during
the Blitz and with a Canadian-Irish dad). Both the boss and the damsel
were Liberals, and set the tone of the paper accordingly. ZONK ! went
the advertising revenues as the downtown oil guys got pissed off with
the message the paper was generating. After a few shuffles at
musical-chairs, different management styles etc., we finish up to-day
with a paper *owned* by Liberals. Money matters, so in a Conservative
stronghold the right wing message matters. However, with some
enlightenment the 'Left' is not ignored. Given a theme I'll see two
articles juxtapositioned, Nigel Hanniford, elegant-looking Brit and how
so smooth, up against a newcomer 'lefty' Naomi Lakrotvitz, chubby and
not particularly attractive - both giving you the dirt from their point
of view. I *really* like that - two points of view which I can balance
in my mind and arrive at my own conclusions.

How the rest of Canada fares with hard print I don't know. Perhaps some
other Canucks can comment.

I've gone on long enough already, and as Pete observed a while back,
minds will remain unchanged. Hardly likely at 74 that I am going to have
a political Epiphany, or you being sixty-ish will change your thoughts
either. Only time will tell, perhaps we might see a pattern after Dubya,
say 2012, but I suspect longer. I'm neither an optimist nor a pessimist,
collecting thoughts in my head as events occur - there's no category for
it but between 'optimist' and 'pessimist' call me a 'mellowist'. It
figures, I can't gone on forever, even if they install an Energizer
battery :-)

I don't go there myself at all frequently, but BBC does have a lot of
back-up articles on their news items at their site. Just go take a look
out of curiosity. Same applies to PBS - but I've never looked.
It used to be intriguing while domiciled in the UK to see Time magazine
express its view of the UK, (Swinging London in the Sixties - big plus,
British Food - what food ?, British Food Part 2 - hey it ain't so bad,
they've improved, Economics - iffy etc....). Similarly I think the
Economist did some articles about a year ago on how you are in the
doggy-doo with your National Debt - particularly now that we have Gulf
War II.

Meanwhile I'll keep tapping away at the keyboard to stop myself from
going nuts and succumbing to Alzheimer's. Who knows, but for the bucks
involved, I might just splash out for a touch screen - then I could
write a dissertation for Rick on Touch Screens and the OO classes needed :-)

Jimmy, Calgary AB

In article <F0pjf.91$Gd6.17@pd7tw3no>,
James J. Gavan <jgavandeletethis@shaw.ca> wrote:

[snip]

>There is after all no black and white in
>life.

Everything's a shade of grey... and that's the black-and-white truth, eh?

DD

docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
> In article <F0pjf.91$Gd6.17@pd7tw3no>,
> James J. Gavan <jgavandeletethis@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> 
>
>
> Everything's a shade of grey... and that's the black-and-white truth, eh?
>
> DD

So every OOP object is a simple bit, by definition.

Donald

Donald Tees wrote:
> docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
> 
>
>
> So every OOP object is a simple bit, by definition.
>
I thought they were called pixies.

Jimmy

The Australians fought in Vietnam. Apparently (I've seen photographs)
they used tanks in the jungle with some degree of success. There was
another nation that helped the US in Vietnam but I can not remember
precisely whom. It may also be the case that British special forces may
have been involved but that is more guesswork rather than hard fact.

"Alistair" <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1133532295.702705.276420@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
>  There was
> another nation that helped the US in Vietnam but I can not remember
> precisely whom.

Republic of Korea.

"Rick Smith" <ricksmith@mfi.net> wrote in message
news:11p0vdtp5dnut6b@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Alistair" <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1133532295.702705.276420@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> [snip] 
>
> Republic of Korea.

Australians were there, too.

> There was another nation that helped the US in Vietnam

New Zealand had a small artillery group there, and much anti-vietnam
war (and anti-american) protests. I remeber it well, being at
university and having an american girl friend at the time.

That is a surprise to me. I dunno.

I had suspected the NZ of it but wasn't sure. Ta.