Cobol books & experiences

LS,

I'm at the point of buying one or two books on COBOL development. I've
found lots of books on this language, and from the outline they all
seem interesting. Some of those are a bit older (from the mid '80s)
which tend to be a bit 'out-dated'.  But as always, one book is better
than the other. So I'm interested in your view on books on COBOL. Which
topics are discussed? Does the author seem to be 'on top of things' or
just writing along?

The main topic of the books should be focused on 'modern' COBOL (not to
offend anyone: not focused on mainframe); on new tech like .NET,
webbased and object oriented programming. I work with NetCOBOL, but a
general, non-compiler specific book would be equally fine.

If we can structure this topic nicely it might be a good reference for
others interested in COBOL, so i'd like to propose an outline for
replies:

Title:
ISBN:
Author:
Publisher:

General topic:
General application:  (e.g. client-server, .NET, ASP, etc.)

Your opinion: (of course, with arguments)



Kind regards,

Rik Hendriks

For .NET

Title: COBOL and Visual Basic on  .Net: A guide for the Reformed mainframe
Programmer
ISBN: 1-59059-048-1
Author: Chris Richardson
Publisher: Apress 2003

Title: Microsoft .NET for COBOL Programmers
ISBN:
Author: Howard E. Hinman
Publisher: Fujitsu 2003

Comments: I started on the first one but never finished because my mom died
and I had to settle her estate and I never got back to either one. My
motivation has been low because I know I will never spend the money required
for the compiler. I will not comment further because at the time I had sleep
apnea and my memory is a little fuzzy. The second title is really two CD's
with a small book that contains mostly an outline/bullet points.

For web programming:

Title:Elements of COBOL Web Programming with Micro Focus Net Express
ISBN: 0-9655945-1-3 (without Micro Focus Net Express University Edition)
ISBN: 0-9655945-2-1 (with Micro Focus Net Express University Edition)
Author: Wilson Price
Publisher: Object-Z 1999
Comments: I remember really enjoying this book a lot.

For Object Oriented COBOL:

Title: Elements of Object-Oriented COBOL
ISBN: 0-9655945-6-4 (without Micro Focus Net Express University Edition)
ISBN: 0-9655945-7-2 (with Micro Focus Net Express University Edition)
Publisher: Object-Z 2001
Comments: I learned a lot from this book but I remember having a hard time
following along at times. IIRC it seemed like some of the example code did
not quite match what the text was saying. I remember sending an errata sheet
to Mike Murach Inc. (the publisher that I bought it from) but now I cannot
seem to find it. In all fairness it could have just been me and my sleep
apnea. I do remember that if you are motivated and stick with it you can
eventually figure out and learn the concepts.

<top post no more follows>

"RH" <R.Hendriks@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1132391727.534963.214830@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> LS,
>
> I'm at the point of buying one or two books on COBOL development. I've
> found lots of books on this language, and from the outline they all
> seem interesting. Some of those are a bit older (from the mid '80s)
> which tend to be a bit 'out-dated'.  But as always, one book is better
> than the other. So I'm interested in your view on books on COBOL. Which
> topics are discussed? Does the author seem to be 'on top of things' or
> just writing along?
>
> The main topic of the books should be focused on 'modern' COBOL (not to
> offend anyone: not focused on mainframe); on new tech like .NET,
> webbased and object oriented programming. I work with NetCOBOL, but a
> general, non-compiler specific book would be equally fine.
>
> If we can structure this topic nicely it might be a good reference for
> others interested in COBOL, so i'd like to propose an outline for
> replies:
>
> Title:
> ISBN:
> Author:
> Publisher:
>
> General topic:
> General application:  (e.g. client-server, .NET, ASP, etc.)
>
> Your opinion: (of course, with arguments)
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Rik Hendriks
>

Hello,

Let me ask this the other way around,

I've recently bought

%T Teach Yourself Cobol in 24 Hours
%A Thane Hubbel
%P SAMS 1999

It has the Fujitsu Cobol v3 compiler.

Is this a good way to proceed?
Is the compiler "close to standard"
(obviously, not 04 standard :-( )

TIA

charles hottel wrote:

<snip>

--
Cheers!

Dan Nagle
Purple Sage Computing Solutions, Inc.

Charles hotel wrote:

Rik and Dan,

Let me use the response from Charles as a template to reply against -
good references.

Now neither of you indicate whether or not you are newbies to COBOL.
Assuming you are, then it wouldn't hurt to go 'backwards' and pick up
copies of older texts which specifically are titled 'Structured
Programming" - one author I can think of is Dan McCracken. It's likely
he is up-to-date for COBOL 85.

Dan asked about Thane Hubbell's "Teach Yourself COBOL in 24 Hours". Good
choice - not that I'm interested in Procedural code as such, but unless
somebody can suggest a later book - still # 1 for me in the 'starter'
category. Thane's book contains CD with early version of Fujitsu and
reference to Flexs SP2 which he uses for GUI-ing. No OO in this book.

I'm going to switch Charles's text around a bit to put it in sequence :-

> For .NET
>
> Title: COBOL and Visual Basic on  .Net: A guide for the Reformed mainframe
> Programmer
> ISBN: 1-59059-048-1
> Author: Chris Richardson
> Publisher: Apress 2003
>
> Title: Microsoft .NET for COBOL Programmers
> ISBN:
> Author: Howard E. Hinman
> Publisher: Fujitsu 2003
>
> Comments: I started on the first one but never finished because my mom die
d
> and I had to settle her estate and I never got back to either one. My
> motivation has been low because I know I will never spend the money requir
ed
> for the compiler. I will not comment further because at the time I had sle
ep
> apnea and my memory is a little fuzzy. The second title is really two CD's
> with a small book that contains mostly an outline/bullet points.

Didn't know about above, but from titles, geared to PCs ? The emphasis
with the second book is of course in using Fujitsu's approach to dotNet
with their compiler.

Before we move on to the Wilson Price books, and from here on in we are
talking OO and Micro Focus.

*>---------------------------------------------------------------------
Title: Object Oriented COBOL
ISBN : SIGS Books 1-884842-34-8 and Prentice Hall 0-13-261140-6
Author : Edmund C. Arrange & Frank Coyle
Publisher : SIGS Books & Multi Media
Comments : Surprisingly using the ISBNs you wont get the correct
reference! ( came up with an entirely different book using one of those
or both ISBNs for a search). You can only get second-hand copies, if
there are any still available. Ignore the ISBNs and do a search on
"Edmund Arrange" in amazon.com.

My starting point and would never have got a hang on OO COBOL without
this. Text develops concepts and an appendix has a very simple and clear
example of OO for an in-house company library. Avoids file handling by
using Working-Storage Tables and GUI-ing using simple ANSI displays.
(Tried to get a diskette containing that Appendix source. Had lost Ed's
e-mail but picked up on Frank. Reply "Don't know where you would get it;
glad book was useful to you, Ed and I have moved on from COBOL...."

*>-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Now to Will Price - a trio in sequence

*>-------------------------
For Object Oriented COBOL:

Title: Elements of Object-Oriented COBOL
ISBN: 0-9655945-6-4 (without Micro Focus Net Express University Edition)
ISBN: 0-9655945-7-2 (with Micro Focus Net Express University Edition)
Publisher: Object-Z 2001
Comments: I learned a lot from this book but I remember having a hard
time following along at times. IIRC it seemed like some of the example
code did  not quite match what the text was saying. I remember sending
an errata sheet to Mike Murach Inc. (the publisher that I bought it
from) but now I cannot seem to find it. In all fairness it could have
just been me and my sleep apnea. I do remember that if you are motivated
and stick with it you can eventually figure out and learn the concepts.
*>----------------------------------------------------------------------

Charles's reference above. It is an excellent text, with a tremendous
number of tips and pointers; numerous ones added in the Second Edition.
However, Arranga/Coyle took the traditional approach developing themes
and adding to them. Not that Will's book doesn't do the same, but having
been a tutor at universities many years, presents material as separate
modules - his preferred style as he himself has said. He builds on a
fictitious company renting out rooms for education/training purposes. I
found it a little difficult to follow his references to RoomDriver1,
then later RoomDriver2 etc. - difficult to explain - but nevertheless an
excellent text.

As to Charles's comments about contacting Murtach - that wouldn't do any
good. Originally Will had the books privately printed, then presumably
passed over the residual stock for Murtach to sell. Will has moved on a
bit, somewhat disappointed at the lack of interest by COBOL users.
Hardly likely, to oblige somebody like Charles, that he is going to
produce a Third Edition.

***** Charles - Donald, Pete Dashwood, Thane and I have copies, so if
***** there are any points you want to clarify - sing out.

*>-----------------------------------------------
> For web programming:
>
> Title:Elements of COBOL Web Programming with Micro Focus Net Express
> ISBN: 0-9655945-1-3 (without Micro Focus Net Express University Edition)
> ISBN: 0-9655945-2-1 (with Micro Focus Net Express University Edition)
> Author: Wilson Price
> Publisher: Object-Z 1999
> Comments: I remember really enjoying this book a lot.
>
The title is a little deceptive - primarily about Web using the Micro
Focus 'Forms' module, a pull down from the IDE. But thrown in for good
measure, (and already having been advised to go from COBOL files to
(R)DBMS) - some good simple stuff on SQL Statements, and which made me
look closer at the Micro Focus IDE where they have ESQL Assistant - to
the complete novice to SQL, an absolute dream. Figure out your table in
the appropriate Database and use the ESQL Assistant to generate your SQL
statements - then just copy/paste into your COBOL source.

*>----------------------------------------------------------------------

For dotNet :

Title: COBOL and .Net
ISBN: 0-9655945-8-0
Author: Wilson Price and Wayne Rippin (ex-Micro Focus employee and a
university instructor in UK, Nottingham or Manchester ???)
Publisher: Micro Focus
On-Line Ordering : www.microfocus/com/shopr - e-mail academic@microfocus.com
Comments: I have a copy which Micro Focus sent if you indicated you
would like it, when they were promoting their dotNet. Only had a casual
read and see that Will uses Visual Basic as the 'other language' plus of
course reference to Visual Studio. Looks good, but I have no immediate
need to 'talk' to other languages.

*>------------------------------------------------------------------------



Well, before you get all wound up that's not the whole story. Check
messages here where Bill Klein posts on the "COBOL FAQ" - as Bill writes
not updated for quite a while, but fairly accurate. References to
complers available, other useful COBOL sites etc.

If starting completely from scratch, go with Thane's book.

PROCEDURAL COBOL : check Bill's FAQ - Acu COBOL, HP/Compaq,
Liant(RM/COBOL), Relia etc. don't have OO but use other tools for GUI-ing.


OBJECT ORIENTATION :  only three compilers -

Mainframe :-

IBM Enterprise - has the ability to handle bare bones creation of OO
Classes but any COBOL Class inherits form JavaBase. Java controls
creation of objects and is also responsible for destroying them - auto
garbage collection. Plus it's Java you use for collections/dictionaries,
(variable length lists) and GUI-ing

Fujitsu-Siemens in Germany - has or is developing an OO-oriented compiler.

PCs : just the two for OO

Fujitsu and Micro Focus; both have in-built GUIs particular to their
compiler - note GUIs are not part of the COBOL standard and highly
unlikely they will ever be - so you can use in-built GUIs or dotNet or
other vendors GUI products.

Both also have collections/dictionaries, again different in style, but
ahead of the COBOL standard which is due for release 2006-2008.

COSTS :

Well nothing is free. Take the whole gambit of PC compilers. I don't
know prices but both Fujitsu and Micro Focus are around $3,000-3,500.
(KOBOL - check Bill's FAQ - about $100). I believe they both now come
with cheaper tutorial editions, but there's a lock so that you don't try
to market using your cheapie tutorial - not unreasonable. Hang on until
spring/summer of next year and you can get the M/F University Edition of
Net Express V 5.0 for around $100 - includes dotNet.

RUNTIMES : i.e. you pay the vendor a royalty each time you distribute,
selling a copy of the software you have produced.

- Fujitsu - none

- Micro Focus - yes.

Firstly what's your intended career path - to join a small to medium
sized software house having come up to snuff on COBOL ? Want to go it
alone, or perhaps some years after having cut your teeth at somebody
else's expense, branch out and do your own thing with a buddy ? This is
only relevant if YOU are picking up the tab.

How much do you want to charge for your software ?. Now ask Micro Focus
before figuring out what you want to do, how much they are going to want
as royalties and when. Good luck !!!!

DOT NET ;

You understand the grand design, Microsoft providing the ability to
communicate between different languages. Of course MS provide some of
the components like Visual Basic, #C and Visual Studio, all dedicated to
using one operating system - Windows. Their products, so Visual Basic
and #C are no doubt tightly interwoven to the background API calls -
very probably you never have to directly code APIs.

My own personal gut feeling - Fujitsu and Micro Focus have made a
blooper getting involved. Firstly, Fujitsu produced their dotNet; to
stay competitive against them Micro Focus introduced their dotNet.

I pick up some possibles reading between the lines of messages in the
Micro Focus Forum.

(a) "I'm using Visual Basic and want to return.... to COBOL.... how do I
do this ?", or vice versa. So why is he using COBOL - because he likes
it as a mechanism to do his Business coding, plus he likes the COBOL
file system. So we'll assume he's using Visual Basic in dotNet for
preference as his GUI-tool. Suppose he latches on to the advantages of
using SQL in preference to the COBOL file system. ADO.Net is already
available as part of the dotNet family. Little while later, says to
himself, "Wait a minute, I'm using dotNet for GUI-ing, ADO.Net for my
database - why do I need to keep hopping backwards and forwards between
dotNet and COBOL". Perhaps....., "Bye, bye COBOL".

(b) Somebody very adept at OO and GUI-ing in Micro Focus. As of May this
year :-

"I find the class inheritance tree asscociation quite useful. I use it
all the time under Visual Studio. I don't tend to do much new
development under Net Express".

Haven't heard from him since but I would like clarification on WHAT HE
IS DOING in Net Express.

Same possibilities with the Fujitsu product.

*>---------------------------------------------------------------------

It's your career - research as carefully as you can and come back here
asking more, and more, and more questions.

Jimmy, Calgary AB

James J. Gavan wrote:
> Charles hotel wrote:
>
> Rik and Dan,

There was a typo in my previous - it should read Edmund ARRANGA, not
'Arrange', just in case you go searching amazon.com

Well there were a few other typos - but it's the one above which could
have thrown you.

Jimmy

In article <2112a$437f4c80$4f9c6a8$13616@DIALUPUSA.NET>,
charles hottel <jghottel@yahoo.com> wrote:

[snip]

>For web programming:
>
>Title:Elements of COBOL Web Programming with Micro Focus Net Express
>ISBN: 0-9655945-1-3 (without Micro Focus Net Express University Edition)
>ISBN: 0-9655945-2-1 (with Micro Focus Net Express University Edition)
>Author: Wilson Price
>Publisher: Object-Z 1999
>Comments: I remember really enjoying this book a lot.

Wow... this sounds like some of the Book Reports I tried to get away with
lo, those many years ago!

DD

Everyone thanks for the replies!

James,

I've been working with Fujitsu NetCOBOL for some years now, ain't no
newbie anymore. The COBOL language is clear and easy to learn and
understand, and NetCOBOL is easy to use. Now I'm at the point of
stepping up. I have experience with OO (in Java, ** no ..positive..
comment on that language **) and want to read more about the way in
which others have combined COBOL with OO. Also, Web developing is
becoming more intresesting and with to see how COBOL is used in a web
environment. That's in short my background and why I posed this topic
here. PS. I'm fully PC/x86 oriented. Mainframes are not in the picture
for me.

With regard to your statement on Fujitsu jumping on the .NET bandwagon.
You feel it's a mistake, I don't agree. Surely the introduction of .NET
(especially the new 2.0) will reduce COBOL development. New languages
like C# close the gaps that C++ created years ago. Look at the new
Express editions of VS2005; anyone can created **some sort of**
application (it doesn't make them professionals just like that). But
for the greater part this will be development of new applications, new
systems etc. With creating a COBOL 'extension' of the MIL one can still
use COBOL as the language to develop applications, and for instance you
can still use indexed files for data storage. With the reduced number
of new COBOL developers it's a good thing you can hook up your COBOL
application to a C# application. In earlier years a company had to
choose 1 language; now a company can combine many 'thanks' to Microsoft
and .NET.

When you look at legacy (mainframe) systems, they will need some sort
of rewriting sometime in the future. Companies will have to choose:
scale up to COBOL for .NET of rewrite the whole thing in another
language. If the first option wouldn't be available what would they
choose? I've seen a big company use Fujitsu NetCOBOL to rewrite
mainframe COBOL systems allowing them to connect it to their Windows
enviroment.

I think that when you isolate COBOL, it will have a less chance of
surviving than when you allow it to go along with new technologies. I
also think that COBOL as a language will stay interesting enough, and
powerful enough to stay with us for many many years.

Dang it! Dang you for mentioning a book that I have not heard about! :-)

Well I did not buy it but I got to searching for books and bought 3 more
Java books.

<snip>

"James J. Gavan" <jgavandeletethis@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:SNPff.538553$1i.244696@pd7tw2no...
> *>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> For dotNet :
>
> Title: COBOL and .Net
> ISBN: 0-9655945-8-0
> Author: Wilson Price and Wayne Rippin (ex-Micro Focus employee and a
> university instructor in UK, Nottingham or Manchester ???)
> Publisher: Micro Focus
> On-Line Ordering : www.microfocus/com/shopr - e-mail
> academic@microfocus.com
> Comments: I have a copy which Micro Focus sent if you indicated you would
> like it, when they were promoting their dotNet. Only had a casual read and
> see that Will uses Visual Basic as the 'other language' plus of course
> reference to Visual Studio. Looks good, but I have no immediate need to
> 'talk' to other languages.
>
> *>------------------------------------------------------------------------


<snip>

RH wrote:
> Everyone thanks for the replies!
>
> James, <snip>

Don't disagree with what you wrote and was being purely speculative as
to what could occur - i.e. *perhaps* a preference for dotNet tools as
opposed to COBOL. The other side of the coin, non-COBOL users *could*
become interested in COBOL because of its availability through dotNet -
although I think the price of COBOL would be a deterrent.

Before I respond further now that I know you are not a newbie, fill in
some blanks :-

- have you yet used OO in Fujitsu - i.e. ignoring the dotNet feature and
specifically for what.

- Fujitsu dotNet - just cutting your teeth, or already actively using.
Which features of dotNet are you using. Other languages and out of
curiosity any additional costs involved to complete your own design
environment.

Part of your template answer was "Experience". Was that the usefulness
of the particular book or are you looking more for background on how
COBOL users have approached design using OO COBOL. At this time there
are three of us who have done it, but each in a slightly different
approach, Donald (F/J), Pete Dashwood (F/J), but as his interest is
primarily 'Components' I think he has moved to Java, and of course yours
truly using M/F (Net Express).

Now I'm not remotely suggesting the above three names are hot-shots,
just brave folks who have from time-to-time, stuck their necks out to
explain what they are doing  :-). Obviously other 'success' stories
around, but with a new concept a modest reluctance to spell out what
they are doing. Lots of folks 'indirectly' (GUI design), and a minority
'directly' use OO, from messages in the M/F Forum. I just don't think
there is a F/J equivalent - is there ?

Jimmy

Hello,

Thanks to all who replied.

I am a newbie with Cobol.

I take it that there's a marked divide between
pre 2004 Cobol and post 2004 ?  Specifically OO stuff?

I'm happy to learn the basics first.  I'm not overly
enthused by .Net, too many eternal standards du jour.
But eventually, learning the OO stuff is part
of the plan.

James J. Gavan wrote:

<snip>

I'll try this one after I get the procedural stuff learned.

> *>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Title: Object Oriented COBOL
> ISBN : SIGS Books 1-884842-34-8 and Prentice Hall 0-13-261140-6
> Author : Edmund C. Arrange & Frank Coyle
> Publisher : SIGS Books & Multi Media
> Comments : Surprisingly using the ISBNs you wont get the correct
> reference! ( came up with an entirely different book using one of those
> or both ISBNs for a search). You can only get second-hand copies, if
> there are any still available. Ignore the ISBNs and do a search on
> "Edmund Arrange" in amazon.com.
>
> My starting point and would never have got a hang on OO COBOL without
> this. Text develops concepts and an appendix has a very simple and clear
> example of OO for an in-house company library. Avoids file handling by
> using Working-Storage Tables and GUI-ing using simple ANSI displays.
> (Tried to get a diskette containing that Appendix source. Had lost Ed's
> e-mail but picked up on Frank. Reply "Don't know where you would get it;
> glad book was useful to you, Ed and I have moved on from COBOL...."
>
> *>-----------------------------------------------------------------------

<snip a bunch>

> It's your career - research as carefully as you can and come back here
> asking more, and more, and more questions.

Thanks, I've been lurking a while.  Sounds like
a nice friendly newsgroup, with an occasional rant.  :-)

--
Cheers!

Dan Nagle
Purple Sage Computing Solutions, Inc.