loading french hyphenation without french typesetting rules

Hello,

I know I may be asking something somewhat heterodox... please don't
burn me at stake!!!

I'm trying to include an article in French for a conference
proceedings, with its own idiomatic typesetting conventions, with the
combine package, and somehow the thing is messed up in trying to load
the \usepackage[...,french,...]{babel} package. So I'd like to typeset
French text, with right hyphenation, without French typesetting
rules... i.e. without the babel package option.  How could I do that?

Luis.

jlrivera wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I know I may be asking something somewhat heterodox... please don't
> burn me at stake!!!
>
> I'm trying to include an article in French for a conference
> proceedings, with its own idiomatic typesetting conventions, with the
> combine package, and somehow the thing is messed up in trying to load
> the \usepackage[...,french,...]{babel} package. So I'd like to typeset
> French text, with right hyphenation, without French typesetting
> rules... i.e. without the babel package option.  How could I do that?


Oh my god!  I hope that no french will read your document. For me that's
exactly an horror ("huge horror", not just "somewhat heterodox).

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage[frenchb]{babel}
\begin{document}
\showhyphens{catastrophe}

\begingroup
\language=0
\showhyphens{catastrophe}
\endgroup
\end{document}

Jean-Côme Charpentier

Jean-Côme Charpentier wrote:
> jlrivera wrote:
> 
>
>
> Oh my god!  I hope that no french will read your document. For me that's
> exactly an horror ("huge horror", not just "somewhat heterodox).

Ooops! I think I have misunderstund.  You want the french hyphenation
without other french rules.  Right?  In this case, that's not an horror
I suppose.

\documentclass{book}
\usepackage[frenchb,american]{babel}
\newenvironment{frenchhyphen}
{%
 {\selectlanguage{french}{\xdef\frenchlan
guage{\the\language}}}
\language=\frenchlanguage
}{}
\begin{document}
\showhyphens{non catastrophique}% american
Ponctuation? Anglo-saxonne!\par
S\^ur. Sure?

\begingroup
\selectlanguage{french}
\showhyphens{non catastrophique}%french
Ponctuation? Fran\c caise!\par
S\^ur. Sure?
\endgroup

\begin{frenchhyphen}
\showhyphens{non catastrophique}%french
Ponctuation? Anglo-saxonne!\par
S\^ur. Sure?
\end{frenchhyphen}
\end{document}

On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:53:12 -0500, Jean-Côme Charpentier
<Jean-Come.Charpentier@wanadoo.fr> wrote:

>
>    Ooops! I think I have misunderstund.  You want the french hyphenation
> without other french rules.  Right?  In this case, that's not an horror
> I suppose.
>
> \documentclass{book}
> \usepackage[frenchb,american]{babel}
> \newenvironment{frenchhyphen}
> {%
>     {\selectlanguage{french}{\xdef\frenchlan
guage{\the\language}}}
>    \language=\frenchlanguage
> }{}

babel provides a "hyphenrules" environment for this kind of thing.
--
Morten

Morten Høgholm wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:53:12 -0500, Jean-Côme Charpentier
> <Jean-Come.Charpentier@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> 
>
>
> babel provides a "hyphenrules" environment for this kind of thing.

Then this is even more easy! Thanks Morton (...and I have to reread the
babel documentation!)

Jean-Côme Charpentier

Jean-C=F4me Charpentier wrote:
> Morten H=F8gholm wrote: 

Right! :)
 
>
> Then this is even more easy! Thanks Morton (...and I have to reread the
> babel documentation!)
>

Nope. None of the above; and I've tried both already...

Perhaps the title ``french hyphenation without babel'' is a little more
explanatory.

The problem is: frenchb.ldf blows up TeX's memory, no matter how much I
do enlarge it. Perhaps there is something wrong with another loaded
package, but I don't want to mess with that...

Thanks,=20

Luis.

On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:30:53 -0500, jlrivera <jlrn77@gmail.com> wrote:

> Nope. None of the above; and I've tried both already...
>
> Perhaps the title ``french hyphenation without babel'' is a little more
> explanatory.

Well, the problem is that one has to know which number the French
hyphenation patterns have. And that can vary from computer to computer.

> The problem is: frenchb.ldf blows up TeX's memory, no matter how much I
> do enlarge it. Perhaps there is something wrong with another loaded
> package, but I don't want to mess with that...

Sounds like an infinite loop. But why wouldn't you want to mess with
that?! It is not entirely inconceivable that someone on this news group
can figure out what is wrong and provide a workaround if you give a
minimal example of something that doesn't work. The following works but
try to add packages until it stops.

\listfiles
\documentclass{combine}
\usepackage[frenchb]{babel}
\begin{document}
Hello.
\end{document}

*File List*
combine.cls    2002/08/24 v0.5 collection of documents
keyval.sty    1999/03/16 v1.13 key=value parser (DPC)
article.cls    2004/02/16 v1.4f Standard LaTeX document class
size10.clo    2004/02/16 v1.4f Standard LaTeX file (size option)
babel.sty    2005/05/21 v3.8g The Babel package
frenchb.ldf
frenchb.cfg
t1lmr.fd    2005/08/29 v1.2 Font defs for Latin Modern
--
Morten

Morten H=F8gholm wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:30:53 -0500, jlrivera <jlrn77@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>
> Well, the problem is that one has to know which number the French
> hyphenation patterns have. And that can vary from computer to computer.
>

Exactly.  Now: provided I know the number of the French language
hyphenation patterns in my local computer, how do I access the
hyphenation patterns without going through babel's ldf files?
 
>
> Sounds like an infinite loop. But why wouldn't you want to mess with
> that?! It is not entirely inconceivable that someone on this news group
> can figure out what is wrong and provide a workaround if you give a
> minimal example of something that doesn't work.

Well, at this point all I need is a kludge, not a solution ;-)

Now seriously: perhaps this may be a general solution for another sort
of problem.  I want the hyphenation patterns, and I already have the
latex.fmt compiled against babel's kernel; how do I load the
hyphenation patterns without loading the particulars (shorthands,
active characters, specials, etc.) of a particular language, i.e.,
without the ldf?

.=2E. or perhaps there is something deeply wrong with some package (or
latex kernel, or the TeX implementation), and there is no time to go
through the development/debugging cycle...

Luis.

On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:30:23 -0500, jlrivera <jlrn77@gmail.com> wrote:

> Exactly.  Now: provided I know the number of the French language
> hyphenation patterns in my local computer, how do I access the
> hyphenation patterns without going through babel's ldf files?

Turns out I didn't remember correctly. The hyphenrules environment is
defined in hyphen.cfg so it is already a part of your LaTeX format. Just
use it.
 
>
> Well, at this point all I need is a kludge, not a solution ;-)

Sure, but others might you know. And they may not be able to get by with a
kludge like the one you are willing to accept.
--
Morten

Morten H=F8gholm wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:30:23 -0500, jlrivera <jlrn77@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>
> Turns out I didn't remember correctly. The hyphenrules environment is
> defined in hyphen.cfg so it is already a part of your LaTeX format. Just
> use it.
>

How do I do that?  I mean: I already loaded the hyphenation patterns
into my format---via hyphen.cfg, of course.

Now I want to access *only* the hyphenation patterns, not the
typesetting rules.

> 
>
> Sure, but others might you know. And they may not be able to get by with a
> kludge like the one you are willing to accept.

You're probably right.

So let's attack the general problem: how to use any language's
hyphenation rules, loaded with hyphen.cfg, without the language's
typesetting rules?

I guess by something like defining a dummy language `hyphens', defining
some user command(s) specifying the language(s) whose hyphenation
patterns are needed, may do the trick.

So perhaps we need to make a hyphens.ldf, defining
\loadhyphens{lang,...,lang}, and \usehyphens{lang}

I think I'll write Johannes Braams about this one...

Cheers,

Luis.