University Vocational Schools

Eliot Miranda wrote:
>
>
<snip>
>
> Over the past two decades the university sector has become more
> vocational in its teaching.  Alan Kay lambastes no less than Stanford
> university in his Croquet presentation for using Java for teaching. When
> I was teaching in London University in the early 90's much debate was
> between those that wanted to teach concepts and those that wanted to
> "provide marketable skills".  Government, with pressure from industry
> (almost always short-sighted), sided with the vocationalists and good
> computer science teaching suffered.
>
I've heard that complaint a lot lately.  I wonder if it has more to do
with the demand for "coders" than a demand for "computer scientists".
As long as government and business require unsophisticated programmers
for unsophisticated expectations vocational training is the most
efficient producer.

That kind of training is probably easily accomplished in a 2-year
program.  Perhaps CS students should be able to attain masters degrees
in 4-years compared to their 2-year counterparts.  Perhaps colleges and
universities could help make that differentiation by handing out
associates degrees for their vocational programs.

Little-to-no Smalltalk?  Little-to-no Lisp?  Less theory?
Congratulations, you've learned less and here's your
less-than-a-bachelor's degree.

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 06:55:07 -0500, Thomas Gagne
<tgagne@wide-open-west.com> wrote:


>Little-to-no Smalltalk?  Little-to-no Lisp?  Less theory?
>Congratulations, you've learned less and here's your
>less-than-a-bachelor's degree.

I wonder if those would be able to compete against the folks in India
with a better background and less salaries...

Fernando wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 06:55:07 -0500, Thomas Gagne
> <tgagne@wide-open-west.com> wrote:
>
>
> 
>
>
> I wonder if those would be able to compete against the folks in India
> with a better background and less salaries...


Even more worrying - what if those folks in India pick up and run with
Smalltalk/Lisp. Remember what happened to the western car industry when
Japan picked up TQM?

Dan,

> Even more worrying - what if those folks in India pick up and run with
> Smalltalk/Lisp. Remember what happened to the western car industry when
> Japan picked up TQM?

Yes - US car makers got clobbered, and then improved their products in
response to the competition.  Fair?

Whether it's better ways to build cars, or better ways to build
software, the more, the merrier :)

Bill


--
Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
bills@anest4.anest.ufl.edu

dan wrote:
> Fernando wrote:
> 

Hi Dan,

let's do some Indian bashing here. When I started working as freelancer afte
r a little while I was also worried that projects may be moved to India. Sub
sequently I had a look at what they produce in India, or are capable of prod
ucing, in short:

DO NOT WORRY ABOUT IT COMPETITION FROM INDIA, DON'T!

The quality what they deliver there is SO FAR BEHIND, just don't worry about
 it.

Guenther

>
>
>
> Even more worrying - what if those folks in India pick up and run with
> Smalltalk/Lisp. Remember what happened to the western car industry when
> Japan picked up TQM?

Günther Schmidt wrote:
> dan wrote:
> 
>
>
> Hi Dan,
>
> let's do some Indian bashing here. When I started working as freelancer
> after a little while I was also worried that projects may be moved to
> India. Subsequently I had a look at what they produce in India, or are
> capable of producing, in short:
>
>     DO NOT WORRY ABOUT IT COMPETITION FROM INDIA, DON'T!
>
> The quality what they deliver there is SO FAR BEHIND, just don't worry
> about it.
>
> Guenther
>
WE still have to worry and here is why:
In short sighted corporate accounting word nobody give a S. about
software quality.  Everybody is concerned with the quarterly results.
And with that folks in India even with their zero quality software win
hands down with their fraction of the labor cost.  The  thing --
those Corporate Execs will not be there when a true cost of outsoursing
will be calculated few years later, they will collect their "golden
parachutes" and move on to screw another company using the "labor cost
reduction" as their greatest achievement.




 

Günther Schmidt wrote:

> DO NOT WORRY ABOUT IT COMPETITION FROM INDIA, DON'T!
>
> The quality what they deliver there is SO FAR BEHIND, just don't worry
> about it.

Um, before this thread gets too unpleasantly racist[*]...

Can I remind people that:

a) this group has a genuinely international readership.

b) comp.lang.smalltalk.dolphin (which is where I am reading this) has
traditionally been a pleasant place, where such discussions are neither
relevant nor (in my opinion) welcome.

Thanks.

-- chris

([*] check my surname.)

Fernando  <frr@easyjob.net> writes:
 
>
> I wonder if those would be able to compete against the folks in India
> with a better background and less salaries...

Those who graduate from the elite IITs in India have a strong mathematical
and traditional computer _science_ background.

I suspect that they would dramatically outperform the vocationally trained.

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:15:39 GMT, israel <rambam@bigpond.net.au>
wrote:

 
>
>Those who graduate from the elite IITs in India have a strong mathematical
>and traditional computer _science_ background.

Not just in India. Many developing countries have world class
colleges, such as Brasil or Chile.

So investing in a 'vocational' education, while living in the first
world, adn therefore lacking the competitve advantage of a low salary,
is a waste of time and money. I don't think that anyone with this sort
of knowledge will be able to compete in a global market anymore.

Anyway, this has become rather off topic...

Getting back on-topic...

Would there be value to having two separate degrees?  Have too many
colleges become Java vocational schools?  Are they learning Java or are
they supposed to be learning OO?  If they're learning OO Java is not a
good place to do it.  Python, Ruby, Smalltalk are better for learning
the disciplines of OO than Java can ever be with all its primitives,
iterators, and non-OO idioms.