Re: OT - Basic human rights

Lueko Willms wrote:
> .    On  24.03.05
>   wrote  lxi0007@netscape.net (LX-i)
>      on  /COMP/LANG/COBOL
>      in  ac289$424381b9$45491f85$23919@KNOLOGY.NET
>   about  Re: OT - "lie" vs "error"
>
>
> l> Does someone without "health care" mean that the government should get
> l> involved?  I'm of the belief that *most* folks without "health care"
> l> are without it due to the choices they have made in their life - and,
> l> conversely, those who "have it" are also there due to the choices they
> l> have made in their lives.
>
>
>    Like chosing to be born into a poor family, you mean?

That's a popular retort...

>    Health care, as food, clothing, housing, education, access to
> culture and sports are basic human rights.

And *that* is where we disagree.  Life is a basic human right, and
that's it (from your list above).  Combined with liberty, the rest is up
to the individual to attain.  Hungry?  Do what you must do to obtain
food.  Need a house?  Do what you need to do to rent/buy one.  I don't
mind a temporary "helping hand", but defining them as rights, at least
in this country, means that the government has to provide them.

>    Without it, a human being cannot exist or not develop itself to the
> full extent of their abilities.

But they're not rights.  They're *responsibilities*, on parents first,
to provide food, clothing, shelter, education, and culture.  When the
child reaches the age that they should begin providing for themselves,
they should.

>    A society which can't guarantee such basic humand rights needs to
> be changed quite urgently.

In this country, you are guaranteed the *opportunity* for all these
things.  You are not guaranteed that they will be handed to you.  (Well,
at least you shouldn't...)

>    Have a look at the small island country just south of the USA as a
> counter example.

Cuba?  You've got to be kidding me...  They're a lot more prosperous,
affluent, and free than we are.

> l> Rewarding irresponsible behavior with free
> l> money (or health care, or whatever) only encourages irresponsibility.
>
>    Makes me think of Enron, Worldcom and the like,

Was that the government?

> also all the wars fought by the USA in the past decades.

All the wars - even the one that defeated Hitler?  Even the Cold War,
which means that *you* live in a freer Germany because of it?  Whew - we
must just be lucky...


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~  /     \/       o  ~                                        ~
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..     Am  25.03.05
schrieb  lxi0007@netscape.net (LX-i)
bei  /COMP/LANG/COBOL
in  2285e$42448117$45491f85$7309@KNOLOGY.NET
ueber  Re: OT - Basic human rights

Medical care as a human right.
 

l> That's a popular retort...
 

l> And *that* is where we disagree.  Life is a basic human right, and
l> that's it (from your list above).  Combined with liberty, the rest is
l> up to the individual to attain.  Hungry?  Do what you must do to
l> obtain food.  Need a house?  Do what you need to do to rent/buy one.

When you want the human society as such a dog-eats-dog everyone-on-
its-own-against-the-rest, rejecting  all human solidarity, then you
also can't have no objections to Mr. Schiavo getting rid of that haft
dead person which is his wife, don't you?


Yours,
Lüko Willms                                     http://www.mlwerke.de
/--------- L.WILLMS@jpberlin.de -- Alle Rechte vorbehalten --

"Ohne Pressefreiheit, Vereins- und Versammlungsrecht ist keine
Arbeiterbewegung möglich"        - Friedrich Engels      (Februar 1865)

Lueko Willms wrote:
> .     Am  25.03.05
>  schrieb  lxi0007@netscape.net (LX-i)
>      bei  /COMP/LANG/COBOL
>       in  2285e$42448117$45491f85$7309@KNOLOGY.NET
>    ueber  Re: OT - Basic human rights
>
>    Medical care as a human right.
>
> 
>
>
> l> That's a popular retort...
>
> 
>
>
> l> And *that* is where we disagree.  Life is a basic human right, and
> l> that's it (from your list above).  Combined with liberty, the rest is
> l> up to the individual to attain.  Hungry?  Do what you must do to
> l> obtain food.  Need a house?  Do what you need to do to rent/buy one.
>
>    When you want the human society as such a dog-eats-dog everyone-on-
> its-own-against-the-rest, rejecting  all human solidarity, then you
> also can't have no objections to Mr. Schiavo getting rid of that haft
> dead person which is his wife, don't you?
>
>

Or you and I, from what I can see.

Freedom to kill each other, freedom to kill everybody else, and freedom
to invade anybody for anything you want to take. Freedom to destroy the
air, freedom to rape the forests and trees, Freedom to destroy the planet.

But freedom to live?  Not a chance. You are allowed to be born.  That's
it?  After that you are on your own? Very strange philosophy. What a
miserable society to live in.

Donald

Lueko Willms wrote:
> .     Am  25.03.05
>  schrieb  lxi0007@netscape.net (LX-i)
>      bei  /COMP/LANG/COBOL
>       in  2285e$42448117$45491f85$7309@KNOLOGY.NET
>    ueber  Re: OT - Basic human rights
>
> l> And *that* is where we disagree.  Life is a basic human right, and
> l> that's it (from your list above).  Combined with liberty, the rest is
> l> up to the individual to attain.  Hungry?  Do what you must do to
> l> obtain food.  Need a house?  Do what you need to do to rent/buy one.
>
>    When you want the human society as such a dog-eats-dog everyone-on-
> its-own-against-the-rest, rejecting  all human solidarity, then you
> also can't have no objections to Mr. Schiavo getting rid of that haft
> dead person which is his wife, don't you?

Of course.  "Life is a basic human right" means that it should only be
taken away according to a very strict, narrow set of laws.

And, it's not dog-eat-dog.  I'm all for human solidarity, loving your
neighbor as yourself, and helping people out.  However, I *don't*
believe it is the *government's* job to do that - it is the *citizen's* job.


--
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~   /   \  /         ~        Live from Montgomery, AL!       ~
~  /     \/       o  ~                                        ~
~ /      /\   -   |  ~          daniel@thebelowdomain         ~
~ _____ /  \      |  ~      http://www.djs-consulting.com     ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
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~ h---- r+++ z++++                                            ~
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Donald Tees wrote:
> Lueko Willms wrote:
> 
>
> Or you and I, from what I can see.
>
> Freedom to kill each other, freedom to kill everybody else, and freedom
> to invade anybody for anything you want to take. Freedom to destroy the
> air, freedom to rape the forests and trees, Freedom to destroy the planet.
>
> But freedom to live?  Not a chance. You are allowed to be born.  That's
> it?  After that you are on your own? Very strange philosophy. What a
> miserable society to live in.

You think I feel this way, and yet you taunt me?  You're brave...  ;)

(And you *know* that the above is a gross misrepresentation of my world
view - either that, or you haven't been paying attention to my posts...)


--
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~   /   \  /         ~        Live from Montgomery, AL!       ~
~  /     \/       o  ~                                        ~
~ /      /\   -   |  ~          daniel@thebelowdomain         ~
~ _____ /  \      |  ~      http://www.djs-consulting.com     ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e    ~
~ h---- r+++ z++++                                            ~
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

LX-i wrote:
> Donald Tees wrote:
> 
>
>
> You think I feel this way, and yet you taunt me?  You're brave...  ;)
>
> (And you *know* that the above is a gross misrepresentation of my world
> view - either that, or you haven't been paying attention to my posts...)
>
>

The only things I know about you are the things you tell me in this NG.

Yes, I do rather suspect that your world view is a bit more kindly than
what you stated, or I responded to above.

Nevertheless, I did you the courtesy to respond to what you stated. I
did not second geuss what I thought you might mean, then try to respond
to that.

Donald