OT Rail vs truck was Re: OT - Re: Program templates as Object Classes

Robert Wagner wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:45:58 GMT, "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net>
> wrote:
>
> 
>
>
> Railroad rates are set by the Federal government, the ICC. They are
> calculated to yield 5.5% ROI. In return for 'guaranteed' profit,
> government can set minimum performance standards.

The ICC no longer exists and government set rates are now the exception
rather than the rule.  Trucking is even more deregulated.  Profit
definitely is NOT guaranteed.

Incidentally after having gone downhill the Southern Pacific is now a
part of the Union Pacific which is having massive problems.  Because of
the difficulties caused by various capacity constraints, in most markets
even cross-country the truck will be faster.  I hate to say this as a
rail supporter but rail is ill-equipped to take on much truck traffic.
Inadequate return on investment is one reason.
>
> 
> 
>
> During the Glory Years, when Vanderbilt & friends were running
> railroads, they made only 3% ROI. That's not obscene.
>
> [url]http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/rcah/html/ah_073400_railroads.htm[/u
rl]
>

> Someone mentioned monster seven-trailer trucks traveling the
> Australian outback at 70 mph.

They did ?  Strange that Google can't find that.

> No so.They're called Road Trains and most have two or three trailers.

What is it that is 'No so' ?  Road Trains _are_ 'monster trucks with up
to 7 trailers' and do travel at up to 70 mph.

They have 1, 2, 3, 4 or as many will fit with 53.5 metres.

http://territorypictures.tripod.com...rainsindex.html

> We have the same in northern Indiana along I-80.

I know how difficult it is for you to accept not being the
best/biggest/most loud mouthed, but those triples in Indiana are not
"the same", or even close.

The limits for Indiana are doubles to 65 feet and 80,000 lb.  Triples
may exist on toll roads  and may be 50% more than those limits, up to
98 feet.

http://www.pilotcars.com/indiana.htm

Road Trains are up to 160 feet (53.5 metres) and 300 tonnes (330,000
lbs). ie twice the size.

> The really big Australian trucks, with 6-7 trailers, travel on
private roads no faster than 40 mph.

Certainly speed is determined by motive power, weight, and air
resistence.  The larger the slower.  But where did you get the nonsense
about 'private roads' ?

http://territorypictures.tripod.com...es/bhrtrain.jpg

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~djf0...roadtrains.html

"""4. In the Tanami Desert in NT, where there is now a 400 tonne seven
(yes seven) trailer two engine road train servicing "the Granites" gold
mining project. I can't wait to for that one to pass me."""

On 1 Jan 2005 14:06:10 -0800, "Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote:
 
>
>They did ?  Strange that Google can't find that.

I must have read it elsewhere.
 
>
>What is it that is 'No so' ?  Road Trains _are_ 'monster trucks with up
>to 7 trailers' and do travel at up to 70 mph.
>
>They have 1, 2, 3, 4 or as many will fit with 53.5 metres.

Most tourist pictures show three trailers.
 
>
>I know how difficult it is for you to accept not being the
>best/biggest/most loud mouthed, but those triples in Indiana are not
>"the same", or even close.
>
>The limits for Indiana are doubles to 65 feet and 80,000 lb.  Triples
>may exist on toll roads  and may be 50% more than those limits, up to
>98 feet.
>
>http://www.pilotcars.com/indiana.htm

That site is misinformed. The standard US triple uses 28 foot trailers
and has a length of 105 feet. A 98 foot triple cannot be made from
readily available equipment. The triples running on I-80 (a toll road)
do not have escort cars, as the site claims they must.

A standard double, made from 48 foot trailers, is actually 5 feet
longer than a triple. Both carry 120,000 pounds.

>Road Trains are up to 160 feet (53.5 metres) and 300 tonnes (330,000
>lbs). ie twice the size.
> 
>private roads no faster than 40 mph.
>
>Certainly speed is determined by motive power, weight, and air
>resistence.  The larger the slower.  But where did you get the nonsense
>about 'private roads' ?

From a Web site I can't find again. It showed six-trailer road trains
claimed to be the longest registered for everyday use, used to haul
ore from a mine to a port. I got the impression the mining company had
paid for the road. A picture caption said, "40 is about it". I assumed
that had been translated to miles per hour.

If the limit is 160 feet, that means Aussies are using 20 foot
trailers.

The big difference is they're running on two-lane roads. Autos have to
pass in the face of oncoming traffic. That would never be tolerated in
the US, where long rigs are allowed only on limited access multi-lane
roads (Interstates, freeways).

The Australian outback looks a lot like West Texas and Eastern New
Mexico, my home base, where one sees another vehicle every half-hour.
Also western Utah, where gas stations are 150 miles apart.

Last wend I drove in blinding snow through Charleston, WVa, where I
saw an accident involving at least three trucks with long trailers.
I-77/79 southbound was backed up more than ten miles. Later, on the
news, I learned of an 80 vehicle accident in Mercer, Pa, that blocked
the highway for 8 hours.

I remember approaching Tulsa from the east a few years ago .. at
night, in the rain, in a construction zone with guard rails close to
the roadway. I slowed down to 70 mph.Trucks, including doubles, were
passing at 80+ mph. I exited at the first motel.

>"""4. In the Tanami Desert in NT, where there is now a 400 tonne seven
>(yes seven) trailer two engine road train servicing "the Granites" gold
>mining project. I can't wait to for that one to pass me."""

Hearsay from a bicyclist. Newmont Mining says nothing about it and the
above Web site refutes the claim.

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 09:46:48 GMT, Robert Wagner
<spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> enlightened us:

>On 1 Jan 2005 14:06:10 -0800, "Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote:
> 
>
>I must have read it elsewhere.
> 
>
>Most tourist pictures show three trailers.
> 
>
>That site is misinformed. The standard US triple uses 28 foot trailers
>and has a length of 105 feet. A 98 foot triple cannot be made from
>readily available equipment. The triples running on I-80 (a toll road)
>do not have escort cars, as the site claims they must.
>

Maybe it is you who are misinformed.  Check out an authoritative site
on I-80 (Indiana Toll Road) at:

http://www.ai.org/dot/motoristinfo/tollroad/faq.html


>A standard double, made from 48 foot trailers, is actually 5 feet
>longer than a triple. Both carry 120,000 pounds.
> 
>
>From a Web site I can't find again. It showed six-trailer road trains
>claimed to be the longest registered for everyday use, used to haul
>ore from a mine to a port. I got the impression the mining company had
>paid for the road. A picture caption said, "40 is about it". I assumed
>that had been translated to miles per hour.
>
>If the limit is 160 feet, that means Aussies are using 20 foot
>trailers.
>
>The big difference is they're running on two-lane roads. Autos have to
>pass in the face of oncoming traffic. That would never be tolerated in
>the US, where long rigs are allowed only on limited access multi-lane
>roads (Interstates, freeways).
>
>The Australian outback looks a lot like West Texas and Eastern New
>Mexico, my home base, where one sees another vehicle every half-hour.
>Also western Utah, where gas stations are 150 miles apart.
>
>Last wend I drove in blinding snow through Charleston, WVa, where I
>saw an accident involving at least three trucks with long trailers.
>I-77/79 southbound was backed up more than ten miles. Later, on the
>news, I learned of an 80 vehicle accident in Mercer, Pa, that blocked
>the highway for 8 hours.
>
>I remember approaching Tulsa from the east a few years ago .. at
>night, in the rain, in a construction zone with guard rails close to
>the roadway. I slowed down to 70 mph.Trucks, including doubles, were
>passing at 80+ mph. I exited at the first motel.
> 
>
>Hearsay from a bicyclist. Newmont Mining says nothing about it and the
>above Web site refutes the claim.


Regards,

////
(o o)
-oOO--(_)--OOo-


"Santa Claus has the right idea ...
Visit people only once a year."
-- Victor Borge
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Steve

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 11:23:52 -0500, SkippyPB
<swiegand@neo.rr.NOSPAM.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 09:46:48 GMT, Robert Wagner
><spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> enlightened us:
 
>
>Maybe it is you who are misinformed.  Check out an authoritative site
>on I-80 (Indiana Toll Road) at:
>
>http://www.ai.org/dot/motoristinfo/tollroad/faq.html

The site says:

"Trailer Combinations (Triples and Long Doubles) operate under
separate rules. Contact Patron Services for information, ext. 420."

The permit application form gives those rules:

"A combination of three vehicles (tractor-trailer-trailer) whose
trailers do not exceed 48 feet, 6 inches each, the width of which
does not exceed 8 feet, 6 inches, and the height does not exceed 13
feet, 6 inches. The maximum weight, subject to axle limits,
may not exceed 127,400 pounds. CAUTION: You must contact the Indiana
Toll Road Authority to obtain a toll road certification
for this type of vehicle prior to applying for this permit.

A combination of 4 vehicles (tractor and triple trailer) whose
trailers do not exceed 28 feet, 6 inches each, the width of which
does not exceed 8 feet, 6 inches, and the height does not exceed 13
feet, 6 inches. The maximum weight, subject to axle limits,
may not exceed 127,400 pounds. CAUTION: This type of triple trailer
combination is not allowed on any highway other
than an Indiana toll road, except between an Indiana toll road
designated make-up, break-up area and the nearest toll gate."

www.in.gov/dor/mcs/pdfs-forms/m233t.pdf

Neighboring Ohio has similar rules:
http://www.ohioturnpike.org/faresch.html

>> http://www.pilotcars.com/indiana.htm

> That site is misinformed. The standard US triple uses 28 foot
trailers
> and has a length of 105 feet.

Misinformed sites now is it ?  I am sure they will give any corrections
you make to them all the consideration they deserve.

> A 98 foot triple cannot be made from readily available equipment.

65 foot double plus 28 foot trailer seem to fit within 98 feet.  But am
I _sure_ that you are more expert than, say, the  AITA.

> The triples running on I-80 (a toll road) do not have escort cars, as
the site claims they must.

I don't see anywhere on the site where they claim an escort is needed
for a 98 foot, 120,000 lb unit.  Certainly for oversize they would need
one, as they specify.

> I got the impression the mining company had paid for the road.

They may well have paid for the road, but that doesn't make it
'private'.  'Private' means no one else can use it without permission.
If it has been built on public land then anyone can.

> If the limit is 160 feet, that means Aussies are using 20 foot
trailers.

That does not mean that _all_ trailers are 20 foot.  It may mean that
ore tippers are 20 foot for _that_ road train and/or the 160 foot limit
is raised in that area.

> Hearsay from a bicyclist.

How ironic, when _all_ that you said was hearsay.  Here is a 7 tipper:
http://territorypictures.tripod.com...es/bhrtrain.jpg

> "Trailer Combinations (Triples and Long Doubles) operate under
> separate rules. Contact Patron Services for information, ext. 420."

You certainly have highlighted that the traffic on I-80 is far from
your claim of "the same" as Road Trains.  While Road Trains operate
routinely up to 160 feet and 300 tonnes your I-80 is limited to much
less regardless of whether it is 98 or 3 x 28.5 + tractor.

On 2 Jan 2005 13:00:10 -0800, "Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote:
 
>
>You certainly have highlighted that the traffic on I-80 is far from
>your claim of "the same" as Road Trains.  While Road Trains operate
>routinely up to 160 feet and 300 tonnes your I-80 is limited to much
>less regardless of whether it is 98 or 3 x 28.5 + tractor.

If Aussies are using 20 foot trailers, the triples most often seen in
pictures are only 80 feet long.

On 2 Jan 2005 11:25:08 -0800, "Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote:
 
> 
>trailers 
>
>Misinformed sites now is it ?  I am sure they will give any corrections
>you make to them all the consideration they deserve.
> 
>
>65 foot double plus 28 foot trailer seem to fit within 98 feet.  But am
>I _sure_ that you are more expert than, say, the  AITA.

That's called a Rocky Mountain Double. It's not commonly used on the
East Coast.
 
>trailers.
>
>That does not mean that _all_ trailers are 20 foot.  It may mean that
>ore tippers are 20 foot for _that_ road train and/or the 160 foot limit
>is raised in that area.

On all road trains I've seen, trailers appeared to be the same length.
I'm guessing it's 20 feet based on 160/7.

Rigs with more than two trailers are nearly impossible to control. The
driver has one eye on the road ahead and the other on rear view mirror
watching the last trailer, which fishtails like crazy. Most drivers
are afraid to drive triples.

It's all about money. Big rigs save money at the price of endangering
civilians and normal truckers. Their participation in accidents is
well above average based on road-miles.

> Someone mentioned monster seven-trailer trucks traveling the
> Australian outback at 70 mph. No so.They're called Road Trains and
> most have two or three trailers.

http://territorypictures.tripod.com...es/bhrtrain.jpg

> We have the same in northern Indiana along I-80.

Most roading system have limits on total length, total weight, and axle
weight.  The Northern Territory has much larger limits than anywhere
else or none at all.  This means that large truck-trailer combinations
(called Road Trains) can exist in NT.

For example in USA:
"""The maximum weight of a tractor-trailer is supposed to be 80,000
pounds on the interstate system. """

"""H.R. 3132 will freeze maximum trucktrailer length at 53 feet on the
NHS."""

see http://www.aitaonline.com/Weight%20Size%20Limits.html

Which shows that triples are only allowed on toll highways in Indiana.

While a double is limited to 65 foot and a triple may get to 95 foot,
the NT Road Trains run to 160 foot for a triple and can near double
that for a 7 trailer.  Weights go to 300,000 lbs or more.

They are nowhere near 'the same' in Indiana.

> The really big Australian trucks, with 6-7 trailers, travel on
private roads no faster than 40 mph.

Where do you get this nonsense about 'private roads' ?  It seems that
in the USA the triples can only run on toll roads, but in NT there are
no such thing.

Certainly the heavier the road train the more power is needed to move
it, and thus for the same power the heavier is slower, but they still
do Darwin to SA.