Re: OT - Re: Program templates as Object Classes

> It doesn't say the 17% includes transportation of food nor irrigation
> water nor manufacture of fertilizer.

""" ... and to manufacture and transport chemical inputs such as
fertilizers and pesticides."""

> That adds .20 * .33 = 7% of total energy consumption, a higher
> percentage of fossil fuel. The total might now be 25-27% of fossil
> fuel.

The actual transport percentage is less that 1/3 given at
http://www.phy.syr.edu/courses/modu.../energy_end.gif

Probably 25% so maybe you could scape it to 22% for _ALL_ food.

> I give up. Fossil fuel consumed by agriculture appears to be 20-30%.
I
> know from land use statistics that about half of US farmland produces
> animal food. So roughly 10% of fossil energy consumption goes to meat
> .. down from one third.

Thank you.

Given that much of that is transport, freezing, processing, fertiliser
and pesticide production, then reducing meat and replacing this with
more other foods is unlikely to make much difference to the energy
consumption.

I suspect, however, that many Americans could be better off by eating
much less (and driving much less and ..) and this would be better for
the rest of us too.

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 02:24:13 +1300, "Pete Dashwood"
<dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:

>
>"Robert Wagner" <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote in message
> news:m6efr0d9h8rst2q86qjnjvo9one5mgtite@
4ax.com... 
>
>So where did you find that, Robert?

"In recent years there has been a shift in beef industry emphasis
toward customer-focussed beef cattle production and breeding systems.
Meeting customer requirements through improved meat quality
characteristics can be achieved by selecting genetically superior
animals, through management changes such as from pasture to
grain-based diets,"
http://www.beef.org.nz/research/bre...breed_ace96.asp

# Kerr RA  1974. Feedlot facilities 34: 177-181 Abstract
# Bell RG 1974. Pollution problems associated with feedlot production
of livestock 34: 182-187 Abstract
# Morris GR 1974. Animal health in a feedlot 34: 188-193 Abstract
# Jagusch KT, et al. 1974. Nutrition of feedlot beef cattle in New
Zealand 34: 194-205 Abstract
# Thompson KR, et al. 1974. Feed intake and growth in New Zealand
feedlots 34: 206-214 Abstract
# McIvor AR, et al. 1974. Financial aspects of feedlot management in
New Zealand 34: 215-232 Abstract
http://nzsap.org.nz/proc/sapt74.html

>I lived in the U.K. during the mad cow epidemic. It was heartbreaking to se
e
>millions of cattle being burned. It was too high a risk to really eat beef
>at that time (well, it was for me...). I managed on pheasant, duck,
>partridge, guinea fowl, chicken, venison, rabbit, pork, NZ lamb,  turkey,
>and fish... unimaginative but safe.
>
>It was caused by feeding processed remains of diseased animals into the
>feedlots. It jumped from sheep (scrapies) to cattle and then from cattle to
>humans.

Scrapies/BSE/CJD can only be transmitted by eating the brain or spine
of an infected animal. Humans have been eating scrapies-infected sheep
for centuries without catching it. Who eats brains? Anyone who eats
hot dogs, sausage and other ground meat. There is very little  risk
from steaks, roasts, etc.

>Grass feeding is a tradition here. If the Japs want our beef they will lowe
r
>their tariffs and make it viable. I don't see feedlots being set up so they
>can receive an inferior product.

Japanese and Europeans have been 'educated' to prefer US-style
corn-fed beef. It remains to be seen whether market forces will
prevail over good sense.

Robert Wagner wrote:

>Japanese and Europeans have been 'educated' to prefer US-style
>corn-fed beef. It remains to be seen whether market forces will
>prevail over good sense.
>
>
Disagree Robert. I first came over here on holiday in '74. Of Irish
descent, my younger brother was convinced we should visit *ALL* the
local watering-holes. Many of course served Alberta beef - great chunks,
no wonder obesity.  Yes I was 'educated' from experience to prefer the
grain-fed beef. Beats anything I tasted in my days in UK.

Now when it comes to dairy cows - Canada just isn't in the league.  Try
as they might to produce local versions of Harvarti, Camembert, Brie
etc., they are very poor knock-offs. The Kiwis described the lushness of
dairyland,  which also applies to my part of UK, Somerset and Devon.
Superb by-products from milk. Both lamb and butter have always been
produced  in quantity throughout UK- but a few decades ago when we were
off to the grocers, subsequently supermarkets, we zeroed in on "NZ
Lamb" and "NZ Butter".

Back when I was with Unigate the dairy company, the PRIME cheddar in UK
was Canadian Black Diamond. With modern production methods, make it,
slice it into chunks and plastic wrap, (it can't 'breathe'), I very much
doubt it holds that position now. If I buy Mild, Medium or Strong all
with an incremental price, I might just as well always buy Mild. There's
no perceptible difference in taste. Certainly the public as been
'educated' in the sense that to suit modern production methods we have
been 'conned' into accepting quickly produced and products lacking
ageing to enhance taste. I shudder each time I pick up one of those
monstrous, tasteless strawberries from California - neither smells nor
tastes like a home-grown one..

Jimmy

James J. Gavan wrote:
> Robert Wagner wrote:
>
>
> Back when I was with Unigate the dairy company, the PRIME cheddar in UK
> was Canadian Black Diamond. With modern production methods, make it,
> slice it into chunks and plastic wrap, (it can't 'breathe'), I very much
> doubt it holds that position now. If I buy Mild, Medium or Strong all
> with an incremental price, I might just as well always buy Mild. There's
> no perceptible difference in taste. Certainly the public as been
> 'educated' in the sense that to suit modern production methods we have
> been 'conned' into accepting quickly produced and products lacking
> ageing to enhance taste. I shudder each time I pick up one of those
> monstrous, tasteless strawberries from California - neither smells nor
> tastes like a home-grown one..
>
> Jimmy

Now *that* annoys me as a cheddar lover.  However, just this w, I
found a menonite cheese factory (in Bright, Ont.) that still makes
premium white cheddar. Their seven year old is superb, but they only
sell it in the Kitchener market, and it is normally gone by 8:00 or so
in the morning on market day ... they ration it. The stuff in the
supermarkets is close to inedible in comparison. Even the "old nippy"
tastes like mild mozzerilla.

I read the other day that *most* vegetables sold in Canadian markets
today have only 60% of the food value they had 25 years ago, due to
early harvesting and gene manipulation for size/appearance. The number
of sub-species available has also gone down to 1/10 of what use to be
available.

We have fished the oceans dry, cut down all the forests, and poluted the
water table of the entire continent. I'd say the human race is in deep
shit. I sold my car four months back, and have decided to live without
one, but it is nothing but a token ack, I'm afraid. Forgoing meat is
trivial.  Forgoing transportation *might* help. I suspect that nature
will start correcting it within the next 50 years, but probably at a
cost of 95% of the human race.

Donald

"Robert Wagner" <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote in message
 news:f1ugr0p7a8pajavk0b15sof2bmca7rt74r@
4ax.com...
> On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 02:24:13 +1300, "Pete Dashwood"
> <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:
> 
eat 
>
> "In recent years there has been a shift in beef industry emphasis
> toward customer-focussed beef cattle production and breeding systems.
> Meeting customer requirements through improved meat quality
> characteristics can be achieved by selecting genetically superior
> animals, through management changes such as from pasture to
> grain-based diets,"
> http://www.beef.org.nz/research/bre...breed_ace96.asp

That is a description of an experiment (carried out in 1993 and 1996) by a
world class animal research centre. All of the Feedlots are part of the
research establishment, NOT general feedlots established for normal retail
cattle.

The experiment was primarily about following the offspring of certain sires
and they tried them on different diets. At no point does it suggest that
feedlots are in general use in NZ. It doesn't even suggest that they ought
to be... The last sentence of your quote (taken out of context anyway) does
suggest that genetically superior animals could be managed differently. It
is speculation. Even if it is true, it has not been implemented.

>
> # Kerr RA  1974. Feedlot facilities 34: 177-181 Abstract
> # Bell RG 1974. Pollution problems associated with feedlot production
> of livestock 34: 182-187 Abstract
> # Morris GR 1974. Animal health in a feedlot 34: 188-193 Abstract
> # Jagusch KT, et al. 1974. Nutrition of feedlot beef cattle in New
> Zealand 34: 194-205 Abstract
> # Thompson KR, et al. 1974. Feed intake and growth in New Zealand
> feedlots 34: 206-214 Abstract
> # McIvor AR, et al. 1974. Financial aspects of feedlot management in
> New Zealand 34: 215-232 Abstract
> http://nzsap.org.nz/proc/sapt74.html
>
Again these are research results from 1974. At that time there was interest
in the possibility of feedlotting. Despite what the academics may have
thought, the idea was never taken up by farmers. Quote from the paper you
referenced above:

"It is concluded that capital intensive units are required to ensure
efficient utilization of nutritional resources and that these should be
controlled by cooperatives. Farmers should feedlot only as an adjunct to
land-intensive agriculture, namely strategic off-paddock supplementation. "

The farming community just never implemented it. Maybe the words "capital
intensive" proved a bit much for the average Kiwi Cow-cocky.

So you have quoted at great length two very old experiments, carried out by
highly reputable academia, and then decided that the rest of New Zealand
must be doing it. Things don't work like that here... The research goes in
and then the battle for the hearts and minds of the New Zealand farmer
begins... These people are not easily hornswoggled or impressed by
academics. They implement things that make sense and look profitable. Grass
is free (once you have covered the capital outlay and minimum maintenance
for fencing, irrigation (which is mainly natural) and fertilizing
(thoughtfully provided by the stock you raise on it), and land is so
plentiful here that we pile it up in heaps...

Your references are disappointingly suspect. I expected more from you.
 
see 
beef 
to 
>
> Scrapies/BSE/CJD can only be transmitted by eating the brain or spine
> of an infected animal. Humans have been eating scrapies-infected sheep
> for centuries without catching it. Who eats brains? Anyone who eats
> hot dogs, sausage and other ground meat. There is very little  risk
> from steaks, roasts, etc.
>
You either ignored what I wrote or didn't understand it. The human form of
"mad cow disease" is a variant of CJD and is properly termed vCJD. This is
the one that jumped from catttle to humans. CJD has always been present in
Humans (a tiny percentage of us)
 
lower 
they 
>
> Japanese and Europeans have been 'educated' to prefer US-style
> corn-fed beef. It remains to be seen whether market forces will
> prevail over good sense.
>
Well, this has been interesting but I have a grass fed T-bone that is just
asking to be BarBQued, so I'll leave it at that. <G>

Pete.

Pete Dashwood wrote: 
>
> Well, this has been interesting but I have a grass fed T-bone that is just
> asking to be BarBQued, so I'll leave it at that. <G>
>
> Pete.
>

Contented cows, most likely ...

Donald  <--grass fed

In article <Wu3ud.468414$nl.383868@pd7tw3no>,
James J. Gavan <jjgavan@shaw.ca> wrote:

[snip]

>Back when I was with Unigate the dairy company, the PRIME cheddar in UK
>was Canadian Black Diamond. With modern production methods, make it,
>slice it into chunks and plastic wrap, (it can't 'breathe'), I very much
>doubt it holds that position now.

Hmmmmm... I've had Black Diamond recently and my palate held it in lower
esteem than a commercially-available Cabot (American, from Vermont)
Private Stock (16 months) or Vintage (18 months) cheddars.

>If I buy Mild, Medium or Strong all
>with an incremental price, I might just as well always buy Mild. There's
>no perceptible difference in taste.

Mr Gavan, did you know that the population of taste-buds per square inch
of tongue decreases markedly with age?  It has been a common plaint of the
hyperannuated that 'thing's ain't got no taste no more... why, when *I*
was a lad the cheese was sharp enough to cut the knife!'

>Certainly the public as been
>'educated' in the sense that to suit modern production methods we have
>been 'conned' into accepting quickly produced and products lacking
>ageing to enhance taste.

Ahhhhh, for the Oldene Dayse... when a man could bemoan the passing of the
Oldene Dayse such as *ten* men cannot, today!

'The simple solution became the adaption of the products themselves so
they could be reproduced by modern machinery.  If it means that wholesome
cake-like bread has to become soggy cellulose mush, with all food value
lost, then it is a small price to pay because look how much faster and
cheaper the machines can reproduce the new inferior product!  Naturally it
was difficult for them to even consider that it might be better to produce
something of worth in an inefficient way than to produce worthless things
efficiently.  Efficiency was everything.

'Beauty became Utility; Joy became Laughter; Creation became Labor; Art
became Productive; and Man became Machine.  It is this disaster that some
would define as Progress.'

- James Drought, 'Drugoth', 1965

1965?  A mere four decades back... that's no time at all, any teenager
could have told you *that*!

DD

docdwarf@panix.com wrote:

>In article <Wu3ud.468414$nl.383868@pd7tw3no>,
>James J. Gavan <jjgavan@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>
> 
>
>Hmmmmm... I've had Black Diamond recently and my palate held it in lower
>esteem than a commercially-available Cabot (American, from Vermont)
>Private Stock (16 months) or Vintage (18 months) cheddars.
>
>
But that merely re-iterates my point,  the ageing process. Which applied
with Black Diamond some forty years ago. You are not exactly a spry
young thing, but nevertheless this has to be  beyond your ken -
certainly my wife couldn't remember when I mentioned it to her tonight
over supper. Back when I was in my teens, trot off to the grocers at my
mother's behest, or accompany her. Order up some cheddar. The wheels,
(a token weight of 56lbs., with an outer wrapping of wax and bandage),
stood on the counter already partially cut. Mr. Grocer used a wire,
tautened by two wooden pegs to slice off the cheese. Depending upon its
age, it came off as a 'rubbery' piece, or perhaps even with this fine
cutting mechanism, some would crumble as it was being cut, the latter
indicating its maturity.

Then again, just over forty years ago, RAF in Germany and excited to
visit Holland for first time with Dutch (R.Neth.A.F.) friends. The
border town Enschede (EN-SHAY-DER in German, EN-SKER-DAY in Dutch).
Visit the town market with a gent in clogs flogging Gouda and Edam.
Having with some temerity sampled raw herring with onion, then latched
on to the phrase, "Oude kaas", - older cheese. Go through a sampling of
Gouda until you hit the one with the right taste.

As that young Welsh lass, Mary Hopkins,  sang many moons ago :-

"Those were the days my friend,
da, da, da, da,
da, da......."

Jimmy

>
> 
>
>Mr Gavan, did you know that the population of taste-buds per square inch
>of tongue decreases markedly with age?  It has been a common plaint of the
>hyperannuated that 'thing's ain't got no taste no more... why, when *I*
>was a lad the cheese was sharp enough to cut the knife!'
>
>
> 
>
>Ahhhhh, for the Oldene Dayse... when a man could bemoan the passing of the
>Oldene Dayse such as *ten* men cannot, today!
>
>'The simple solution became the adaption of the products themselves so
>they could be reproduced by modern machinery.  If it means that wholesome
>cake-like bread has to become soggy cellulose mush, with all food value
>lost, then it is a small price to pay because look how much faster and
>cheaper the machines can reproduce the new inferior product!  Naturally it
>was difficult for them to even consider that it might be better to produce
>something of worth in an inefficient way than to produce worthless things
>efficiently.  Efficiency was everything.
>
>'Beauty became Utility; Joy became Laughter; Creation became Labor; Art
>became Productive; and Man became Machine.  It is this disaster that some
>would define as Progress.'
>
>             - James Drought, 'Drugoth', 1965
>
>1965?  A mere four decades back... that's no time at all, any teenager
>could have told you *that*!
>
>DD
>
>
>

In article <_t8ud.450794$Pl.429413@pd7tw1no>,
James J. Gavan <jjgavan@shaw.ca> wrote:
>docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
> 
>But that merely re-iterates my point,  the ageing process. Which applied
>with Black Diamond some forty years ago.

It applies to it nowadays; the Black Diamond I had was a black wax-wrapped
cheese which had a label claiming it was two-years aged.

DD

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 21:57:52 GMT, "James J. Gavan" <jjgavan@shaw.ca>
wrote:

>Robert Wagner wrote:
> 
>Rather looks like the Marmite may well have been on the shelf for
>sometime. Sadly here, Calgary, using the Pareto 80-20 rule, they keep
>discreetly deleting items, until the retailer, if he follows Pareto's
>logic,  finds himself with no product  looking up his ass ! Same as
>Marmite there's Vegemite from Kraft and Bovril (the paste version) from
>God knows who.

Possibly Unilever. You know what they are, don't you? They are the
sludge from the bottom of beer tanks. Basically dead yeast containing
lots of protein and vitamins and fairly salty. The paste is essential
in vegetable stock. Gravy Quik is an unacceptable substitute. When I
spread it on cracker bread, which I do infrequently, I found the
secret is to make the coat as thin as possible.

>Reading recent copies of the 'Wly Express' (for ex-pats), It becomes
>really difficult to know who owns what in the UK of the favourite brands
>one grew up with.

It works both ways. King's supermarkets in New Jersey are owned by
Marks & Spencer. The La Brea Bakery is owned by IAWS, out of Ireland.
Mrs. Baird's bread, a long-time Texas institution (I don't know why,
it tastes like facial tissue), is now owned by the Mexican 'Bimbo
Group'. Is nothing sacred?

> That's that commercial obsession to grow, otherwise
>you will die - so many US companies have grabbed whole chunks of UK
>brand names. Probably got it wrong but Bird's Custard Powder is now
>owned by Kraft - quite a possibility they may kill it off, along with
>two ancillary products Dream Whip, Something....Topping.

Kraft spent millions developing Dream Whip. It was intended to be
synthetic milk. Customers refused to buy synthetic milk, so it became
dessert topping and coffee creamer. They won't drop it.

>Talisker Scotch - never hoid of it. But I do have a rather neat drop of
>Laphroaig  (pronounced "La-froyg",  according to the label), plus a wee
>dram of Glenfiddich. Both are nectar to be sipped upon, with absolutely
>no addition of water, soda or whatever.

Robert Lewis Stevenson mentioned all three in a poem: The Scotsman's
Return from Abroad "The king o' drinks, as I conceive it, Talisker,
Islay or Glenlivit." Laphroaig is from Islay, an island in the south
of Scotland where the whiskey tastes of smoke and seaweed.
Glenfiddich, along with most traditional single malt Scotch, comes
from the Highlands district of Speyside, same as Glenlivit. One of the
best in that genre is Cragganmore. You might find it interesting to
try your Glenfiddich alongside a Lowland malt such as Glenkinchie or
Girvan (similar to your name). Lowland malts are a bit smoother and
more restrained, most often the stock for blended (Girvan goes into
Grant's; Glenkinchie, into Haig's), but stand up well as single malt
and single grain.