Re: OT - Re: Program templates as Object Classes

On 7 Dec 2004 18:58:12 -0800, "Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote:
 
> 
> 
>
>Here is an actual figure for agriculture:
>
>"""Few people realize that an enormous amount of energy is required to
>produce our food. In fact, 17% of all fossil fuel used in the U.S. is
>consumed by the food production system.4
>...
>Large amounts of fossil fuel are required to power heavy farming
>machinery, to process foods, to refrigerate foods during
>transportation, to produce packaging materials, and to manufacture and
>transport chemical inputs such as fertilizers and pesticides."""
>
>So actual statistics report that 17% is used for _ALL_ food production,
>including transport and packaging, versus your claim that _twice_ that
>amount is used to produce a part of that food.

It is questionable how much transportation is included. This is what
the review source says :

"Large amounts of fossil fuel are required to power heavy farming
machinery, to process foods, to refrigerate foods during
transportation, to produce packaging materials, and to manufacture and
transport chemical inputs such as fertilizers and pesticides."

It doesn't say the 17% includes transportation of food nor irrigation
water nor manufacture of fertilizer. The same source says:

"According to the U.S. Department of Transportation, food and
agricultural products (not including imported or exported foods) are
transported 566 billion ton-miles within U.S. borders each year,
constituting more than 20% of total U.S. commodity transport.7"

That adds .20 * .33 = 7% of total energy consumption, a higher
percentage of fossil fuel. The total might now be 25-27% of fossil
fuel.

A source for energy consumed by irrigation says:

"Only about 3 percent of the nation's energy is used in agriculture
and only 23 percent of this quantity (or less than 0.7 percent of the
nation's energy use) powers the irrigation pumping plants."
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oiaf/160...pdf/gg-vol2.pdf

How did we get from 17% down to 3%? They are counting on-farm
consimption, not total consumption. Does "irrigation pumping plant"
include local wells on the farm?

"     Wells are the main source of irrigation water.  Half of all the
irrigation water comes from wells and is used on over 60 percent of
all irrigated land"
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/cb95-203a.html

The biggest users of irrigation are citrus, cotton, rice and
vegetables. Irrigated corn and soybeans, the main animal foods, are
uncommon.

I give up. Fossil fuel consumed by agriculture appears to be 20-30%. I
know from land use statistics that about half of US farmland produces
animal food. So roughly 10% of fossil energy consumption goes to meat
.. down from one third.

In article <sqtcr0h86rgg38nee8rufhn3fevql240o7@4ax.com>,
Robert Wagner  <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:

[snip]

>So roughly 10% of fossil energy consumption goes to meat
>.. down from one third.

But hey... what's an over-estimate of a couple of hundred percent and
change, anyhow?

DD

On 8 Dec 2004 16:00:56 -0800, "Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote:

>In this country I eat the seed (grain), the cattle eats the grass
>(hay).  Most of the time they just eat grass.  They are equipped to eat
>grass - they are ruminants.
 
>
>In this country cattle don't eat grain, they eat grass, hay, and
>windfall or damaged fruit.  In other countries they may eat
>mangelworzles which you wouldn't.  To us it is trash, to farm animals
>it is food.

New Zealand has a few feedlots (for the Japanese market?), but the
vast majority of its beef is grass-fed, as you say.

US cattle eat grass, hay and mostly silage (fermented grain plants)
until they weigh 4-500 lbs. Then they're moved to a feedlot and
switched to a 'finishing diet' consisting of corn supplemented with
protein. They put on another 500 lbs in the feedlot before they are
slaughtered at age 15 months. If they ate grass their whole life, it
would take five years.
 
>that's all you ate.
>
>Exactly.  To replace meat there needs to be high quality food.  Cattle
>eat low quality food and turn it into high quality food.
>You would starve if all you eat was cattle fodder.

Meat may be high quality food, but it causes a low standard of
culinary quality. One of my heroes, Br. Ron Picarski, led a US team
that won gold and silver in two consecutive Culinary Olympics, cooking
vegan dishes vs. European hotel chefs cooking meat. Charlie Trotter, a
non-vegetarian Chicago chef, cooks vegetarian meals that sell for $75
per plate. He has a three-month waiting list.  Those examples should
dispel any image of deprivation or low quality.

On 8 Dec 2004 20:43:42 -0800, "Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote:
 
>
>Well, actually, no.  While marbled meat does fetch a higher price it is
>only a very small part of the local market.  There is a premium export
>market for this.

Grass-fed fetches a higher price in the US, but it's a very small part
of consumption -- health-food stores and the like. Perhaps some Kiwi
(or Argentinian) marketing genius could tap into that market. It would
have to be Organic as well.

In article <m6efr0d9h8rst2q86qjnjvo9one5mgtite@4ax.com>,
Robert Wagner  <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>On 8 Dec 2004 16:00:56 -0800, "Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote:

[snip]
 
>
>Meat may be high quality food, but it causes a low standard of
>culinary quality.

'Low standard of culinary quality'?  What, pray tell, are the units of
measure of this standard, Mr Wagner?

DD

"Robert Wagner" <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote in message
 news:m6efr0d9h8rst2q86qjnjvo9one5mgtite@
4ax.com...
> On 8 Dec 2004 16:00:56 -0800, "Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote:
> 
> 
>
> New Zealand has a few feedlots (for the Japanese market?), but the
> vast majority of its beef is grass-fed, as you say.

So where did you find that, Robert?

I have refrained from posting here because Richard has been doing it more
than adequately.

He told you the circumstances of feedlots here. Yet you insist there are
feedlots. Our cattle eat some of the lushest and greenest sward in the
world. (did you see Lord of the Rings? The Shire is what we call "Dairy
country". The Waikato valley produces milk and beef. Another province
(Taranaki) is similar. I have NEVER seen cattle being fed grain here. I
believe Richard's explanation of when this might occur is accurate. So now
you tell us there are feedlots for the Japanese Market.

It's nonsense. The Japanese are currently in NZ to buy beef because they
have stopped importing it from the US and Canada, due to mad cow disease.
What they will buy will be NZ raised grass fed beef.

Check this link:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm...bjectID=3542375

I lived in the U.K. during the mad cow epidemic. It was heartbreaking to see
millions of cattle being burned. It was too high a risk to really eat beef
at that time (well, it was for me...). I managed on pheasant, duck,
partridge, guinea fowl, chicken, venison, rabbit, pork, NZ lamb,  turkey,
and fish... unimaginative but safe.

It was caused by feeding processed remains of diseased animals into the
feedlots. It jumped from sheep (scrapies) to cattle and then from cattle to
humans. I note that NZ has never had a case of it. I'm not saying this
smugly because it could always be imported, but as long as our cattle remain
grass fed it is unlikely to happen "by itself".

The meat, just like all the other produce here, is delicious...

Grass feeding is a tradition here. If the Japs want our beef they will lower
their tariffs and make it viable. I don't see feedlots being set up so they
can receive an inferior product.

Pete.

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:52:33 -0500, SkippyPB
<swiegand@neo.rr.NOSPAM.com> wrote:

>Her name is Ann Coulter.  She once commented, on FOX News' Hannity and
>Colmes, that God gave people dominion over the planet and that we
>should "rape" the earth "as opposed to living like the Indians".

She wished Timothy McVeigh had chosen the New York Times building.

In article <0gljr09fva5hccq6tdsf4m176ui9or9lo9@4ax.com>,
Robert Wagner  <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:52:33 -0500, SkippyPB
><swiegand@neo.rr.NOSPAM.com> wrote:
> 
>
>She wished Timothy McVeigh had chosen the New York Times building.

I guess that's what passes these days for 'compassionate conservatism'.

DD

In article <sqtcr0h86rgg38nee8rufhn3fevql240o7@4ax.com>,
Robert Wagner  <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:

[snip]

>So roughly 10% of fossil energy consumption goes to meat
>.. down from one third.

But hey... what's an over-estimate of a couple of hundred percent and
change, anyhow?

DD

"Robert Wagner" <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote in message
 news:m6efr0d9h8rst2q86qjnjvo9one5mgtite@
4ax.com...
> On 8 Dec 2004 16:00:56 -0800, "Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote:
> 
> 
>
> New Zealand has a few feedlots (for the Japanese market?), but the
> vast majority of its beef is grass-fed, as you say.

So where did you find that, Robert?

I have refrained from posting here because Richard has been doing it more
than adequately.

He told you the circumstances of feedlots here. Yet you insist there are
feedlots. Our cattle eat some of the lushest and greenest sward in the
world. (did you see Lord of the Rings? The Shire is what we call "Dairy
country". The Waikato valley produces milk and beef. Another province
(Taranaki) is similar. I have NEVER seen cattle being fed grain here. I
believe Richard's explanation of when this might occur is accurate. So now
you tell us there are feedlots for the Japanese Market.

It's nonsense. The Japanese are currently in NZ to buy beef because they
have stopped importing it from the US and Canada, due to mad cow disease.
What they will buy will be NZ raised grass fed beef.

Check this link:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm...bjectID=3542375

I lived in the U.K. during the mad cow epidemic. It was heartbreaking to see
millions of cattle being burned. It was too high a risk to really eat beef
at that time (well, it was for me...). I managed on pheasant, duck,
partridge, guinea fowl, chicken, venison, rabbit, pork, NZ lamb,  turkey,
and fish... unimaginative but safe.

It was caused by feeding processed remains of diseased animals into the
feedlots. It jumped from sheep (scrapies) to cattle and then from cattle to
humans. I note that NZ has never had a case of it. I'm not saying this
smugly because it could always be imported, but as long as our cattle remain
grass fed it is unlikely to happen "by itself".

The meat, just like all the other produce here, is delicious...

Grass feeding is a tradition here. If the Japs want our beef they will lower
their tariffs and make it viable. I don't see feedlots being set up so they
can receive an inferior product.

Pete.