A question to the APL vendors on Windows GUIs ...

AFAIK, most APL vendors interface to the standard Windows GUI objects.
Is there a possibility of using "Java GUI Modules" instead ?
i.e. Java  Classes etc etc.
... and if so, is it possible without much effort ?




The reason I'm asking ?

Well, a recent example :
... a friend of mine recently recieved his personal copy of APL and
his very first comment was....." the GUI interface looks wrong ; is it
(APL) installed properly?"

( he meant the APL-Window, not anything he himself had written  .. and
it was of course installed properly )


When you see the software on the market today, their GUIs are more
than pleasing to the eye... ... which is of course a major selling
factor ..  rightly or wrongly !

I myself have written over the last few years a couple of larger sized
APL apps which I intended to sell. In the end, I decided not to
bother, as the GUI just didn't look "nice" enough ! ...... not because
of my own work,but because the GUI simply wasn't "slick"enough ... ..
as is the case in most Java apps , for example !


I also did a lot of exploratory work on internet interfacing ( Browser
DOM models etc. etc. ) as well as reporting loads of bugs ( 100's of
Emails ) in the latest verions of my APL interpreter . I discovered
( from the vendor ) that not many Users have been as far as I have in
those domains ! This surprised me "very" much !!



I am well aware that most APL Vendors (apart from IBM) probably don't
have the resources to expend  on GUIs especially when there are more
important outstanding jobs on the table. OTOH, I seem to remember
Sharp APL doing a Java interface !




PS:
Don't flame me for being critical .. but I would like to see some
constructive discussion on this topic !!
Also, I am not trying to discourage the small Vendors, and consider
they have "all" done more than excellent jobs.

Which APL interpreter are you using?

I am not aware of the issues you raise. As far as I know, APL uses
standard Windows controls via some mechanism to enable APL syntax.
Therefore, I'd expect all controls to look the same whether hosted by
APL or not. As far as I can tell, they do.

However, because of the custom bridge, some controls/behaviours are
not available e.g the autosizing features of controls in .Net GUIs,
for instance.

Is it possible that it is your APL GUI design that is the culprit? APL
does not have a GUI designer to speak of, certainly not one that comes
close to even the VB6.0 designer, let alone the much better VS2005
one.

If you still hold your conviction, you can do your presentation tier
in (exclusively) Java (or whatever else) and use APL for your buiness
tier. You will need to use something like COM for allowing the two
tiers to communicate. As far as I know, COM and Java present
nightmares of unimaginable complexity ...

I've used the VB GUI designer as well as various JavaDKs.
I still stand by my conviction .. it's not the Vendor's fault, but
simply the fact that they stick to the STD Windows rules for obvious
reasons , e.g. for maintainability etc. etc.

I also agree that there is no comparable (to VB etc. ) GUI designer
for APL.  I disagree completely that my "own GUI work" is the
problem !
The "problem" is the "look and feel" is basically boring STD windows,
whereas the Java developers have the ability to buy and use thousands
of "programming modules/classes" etc. etc. for making the appearance
of their Apps much more "swish" and "ergonomically appealing".
We (APL users) do not have that choice !

The whole point of "is basically boring STD windows" is that is
consistent no matter what development environment deploys them. This
ensures that users are presented with a consistent look and feel i.e.
like controls behave identically irrespective of whether it is APL or
anything else that presents them.

The Java stance is to be different i.e this renders users acquired
experience to date with GUI interfaces next to useless ... if they are
that different.

As I said, you can do the user interface in JAVA and have it talk to
the APL business interface. OR, find someway to define the JAVA
controls as custom controls that can be put on APL GUI forms. I know
that this approach is viable with VB6.0 and .NET dontrols.

You did not mention which APL you are using!

> The whole point of "is basically boring STD windows" is that is
> consistent no matter what development environment deploys them.

Yes, I'm well aware of that !

On the GUI side, you must yourself have noticed that many new software
Apps are using new GUI ideas ... made avaible via Java and similar,
i.e. no longer sticking to STD WIndows GUI standards.

Take the Ububtu "Look and Feel" or MAcBook's Leopard for example.
There are various "new" and IMO better L&Fs out there.

My original question was aimed at those !
....like, are we APlers destined to become stuck with the "old"
Windows L&F which I personally do not consider superior to the others
I mentioned !






> You did not mention which APL you are using!
.... my question was general !

Since

1. there are more Windows developers than Linux or Mac developers
taken together
2. there is no organisation (in the world) using Linux or Macs who do
not ALSO use Windows

I'd say that it is Windows that defines the standard; this is far from
being "stuck with the "old"
Windows" ... it is abiding by the most ubiquitous standard.

You said: "I also did a lot of exploratory work on internet
interfacing (Browser DOM models etc. etc. ) as well as reporting loads
of bugs ( 100's of Emails ) in the latest verions of my APL
interpreter." ... note "my APL interpreter". So your question was
hardly general. PS. I have used web forms & DOM from APL without any
problems.

Maybe we can get back to the original question ?

<<<AFAIK, most APL vendors interface to the standard Windows GUI
objects.
Is there a possibility of using "Java GUI Modules" instead ?
i.e. Java  Classes etc etc.
... and if so, is it possible without much effort ? 

As to you saying ""I am not aware of the issues you raise""
then I would simply reply that I beg to differ !

From what you have said so far, I take it that the task is by no means
"easy to do " !

Thanks for you effort all the same !

You might remember Stephen Taylor's comment on "creolisation" in APL.
Just take those features that are useful, not more. The K-GUI  philosophy
is a good example
But there are more. Several (mainly internal) applications have made very
efficient use of a scarce extraction of the (Windows) GUI-features (but show
ed
on diverse APL-conferences, some extensively explained and even distributed
by way of a diskette - too bad if you weren't there).



"aleph0" <apl68000@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fb1c2638-a6c2-484f-871b-1a3bda6d419d@l32g2000hse.googlegroups.com... 
>
> Yes, I'm well aware of that !
>
> On the GUI side, you must yourself have noticed that many new software
> Apps are using new GUI ideas ... made avaible via Java and similar,
> i.e. no longer sticking to STD WIndows GUI standards.
>
> Take the Ububtu "Look and Feel" or MAcBook's Leopard for example.
> There are various "new" and IMO better L&Fs out there.
>
> My original question was aimed at those !
> ....like, are we APlers destined to become stuck with the "old"
> Windows L&F which I personally do not consider superior to the others
> I mentioned !
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> .... my question was general !
>

> The K-GUI =A0philosophy is a good example
> But there are more. Several (mainly internal) applications
> have made very> efficient use of a scarce extraction of
> the (Windows) GUI-features (but showed on diverse APL-
> conferences, some extensively explained and even
> distributed by way of a diskette


That sounds interesting ... could you supply a link for me to read
please ?

PS:
The A+ GUI I found extremely innovative .. just a shame they couldn't
implement it under Windows .. too complex to integrate AFAIK ( not
surprisingly ).

yes, several
http://www.ganuenta.com/annuity.exe
http://www.ganuenta.com/bonds.exe
http://www.ganuenta.com/stocks.exe
http://www.ganuenta.com/mortality.exe

and more at http://www.ganuenta.com/ under samples
APL, J & K (including workspaces & scripts)



"aleph0" <apl68000@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:658bab0e-4e18-4876-a680-6cbe93b47e9b@f10g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> The K-GUI philosophy is a good example
> But there are more. Several (mainly internal) applications
> have made very> efficient use of a scarce extraction of
> the (Windows) GUI-features (but showed on diverse APL-
> conferences, some extensively explained and even
> distributed by way of a diskette


That sounds interesting ... could you supply a link for me to read
please ?

PS:
The A+ GUI I found extremely innovative .. just a shame they couldn't
implement it under Windows .. too complex to integrate AFAIK ( not
surprisingly ).