Re: Perfrom Thru (really syntax)

<docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:c48tei$fug$1@panix1.panix.com...
> In article <106fdie9ano6n64@corp.supernews.com>,
> Rick Smith <ricksmith@mfi.net> wrote:
<much snippage> 
>
> Then, Mr Smith, if the Standard allows for a particular syntax and the
> compiler throws a 'syntax error' then it would seem that the
> implementation is not conforming to the standard.
>

That would be true. ; HOWEVER, if the Standard
A) "allows for a particular syntax"
*and*
B) allows the implementation to place LIMITS and other additional restrictio
ns
on the Standard supplied syntactic specifications

Then
It is true  the implementation MAY OR MAY NOT BE conforming to the standard,
if the  compiler 'throws a 'syntax error'  for that particular syntax.

Doc,
You (and Richard and others) may not LIKE it, but the COBOL Standard (curren
t
and past) simply does NOT say that source code that conforms to the "syntact
ic
specifications" of the Standard *must* not get any additional SYNTAX errors
(based on "limits violations"; use of optional features; WHATEVER) - and sti
ll
have the compiler considered "conforming".  This may not be true for other
programming languages (I don't know) but it is the case for the COBOL Standa
rd.

The COBOL Standard (current and past) tells you when source code MUST get a
syntax error (or an extension flag).  It does NOT tell you when it must get 
a
"clean" compile (no syntax error).

I have provided the information from the 2002 Standard, but for those (must 
of
us) using an '85 Standard compiler, here is what that says on this topic,

"1.7 RELATIONSHIP OF A CONFORMING PROGRAM TO A CONFORMING IMPLEMENTATION
The translation of a conforming source program by a conforming implementatio
n
and the subsequent execution of the resultant object program is defined only
 to
the extent specified in Standard COBOL. However, the preceding statement doe
s
not imply that the program will be translated or executed successfully;
translation and execution depends on other factors, such as the use of
implementor-defined language elements, the logical correctness of the progra
m,
and the data upon which the program operates.

In general, Standard COBOL specifies no upper limit on such things as the nu
mber
of statements in a program and the number of operands permitted in certain
statements. It is recognized that these limits will vary from one implementa
tion
of Standard COBOL to another and may prevent the successful translation of s
ome
programs that meet the requirements of Standard COBOL."


--
Bill Klein
wmklein <at> ix.netcom.com

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"William M. Klein" <wmklein@nospam.netcom.com> wrote

>   You (and Richard and others) may not LIKE it, but the COBOL Standard (cu
rrent
> and past) simply does NOT say that source code that conforms to the "synta
ctic
> specifications" of the Standard *must* not get any additional SYNTAX error
s
> (based on "limits violations"; use of optional features; WHATEVER)

It is not a case of whether we like it or not.  While it is perfectly
true that the standard allows a compiler to output any message it
likes and may call an error a 'syntax error', this does not make the
source code have an error in its syntax when it is, in fact, a
limitation of the system that is the cause of the error.

For example if the compilation ceased because there was no disk space
left, then it would be incorrect to blame the programmer as having
used the wrong syntax.

In the case discussed the compiler ran out of 'segment space'.  There
is no error in the syntax, that exact source code could be compiled
correctly if it was in a different place in the program, it is not a
'syntax error'.

It is irrelevant that standard makes no constraints on what error
messages may be, the issue has nothing to do with what syntax is used
in the source code.

Your argument _may_ have some validity if the compiler was
consistently rejecting a particular source structure because it
couldn't handle the actual syntax, but in the case discussed it would
sometimes accept the lines around the 'error' and sometimes not.  The
issue is _not_ the syntax.

Actually, in the case that began this thread, if you moved the entire PARAGR
APH
(or section?) anywhere else, you would get the exact same syntax error.  The
error in the source code (which was - according to the report - was clearly
indicated) was that the source code had a syntax error in that the "procedur
e's
source code" (syntax) needed to be MODIFIED by the programmer to "break up" 
the
procedural statements into smaller "pieces of syntax".

HOWEVER, regardless of this, as far as COBOL goes, if you are talking about 
what
is and is not a valid syntax error - you may ONLY apply the rules of the
ANSI/ISO COBOL Standards (which are silent on this topic).  You may say that
 you
do not like a vendor's classification, but that is your opinion - NOT an iss
ue
of the compiler be conforming to the Standard (which is what Doc seemed to w
ant
to say).

--
Bill Klein
wmklein <at> ix.netcom.com
"Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote in message
news:217e491a.0403292049.270bd951@posting.google.com...
> "William M. Klein" <wmklein@nospam.netcom.com> wrote
> 
(current 
"syntactic 
>
> It is not a case of whether we like it or not.  While it is perfectly
> true that the standard allows a compiler to output any message it
> likes and may call an error a 'syntax error', this does not make the
> source code have an error in its syntax when it is, in fact, a
> limitation of the system that is the cause of the error.
>
> For example if the compilation ceased because there was no disk space
> left, then it would be incorrect to blame the programmer as having
> used the wrong syntax.
>
> In the case discussed the compiler ran out of 'segment space'.  There
> is no error in the syntax, that exact source code could be compiled
> correctly if it was in a different place in the program, it is not a
> 'syntax error'.
>
> It is irrelevant that standard makes no constraints on what error
> messages may be, the issue has nothing to do with what syntax is used
> in the source code.
>
> Your argument _may_ have some validity if the compiler was
> consistently rejecting a particular source structure because it
> couldn't handle the actual syntax, but in the case discussed it would
> sometimes accept the lines around the 'error' and sometimes not.  The
> issue is _not_ the syntax.

Am  29.03.04
schrieb  riplin@Azonic.co.nz (Richard)
auf  /COMP/LANG/COBOL
in  217e491a.0403292049.270bd951@posting.google.com
ueber  Re: Perfrom Thru (really syntax)

r> "William M. Klein" <wmklein@nospam.netcom.com> wrote

WmK>>   You (and Richard and others) may not LIKE it, but the
WmK>> COBOL Standard (current and past) simply does NOT say that
WmK>> source code that conforms to the "syntactic specifications" of
WmK>> the Standard *must* not get any additional SYNTAX errors (based
WmK>> on "limits violations"; use of optional features; WHATEVER)

r> It is not a case of whether we like it or not.  While it is perfectly
r> true that the standard allows a compiler to output any message it
r> likes and may call an error a 'syntax error', this does not make the
r> source code have an error in its syntax when it is, in fact, a
r> limitation of the system that is the cause of the error.

The standard defines only an _abstract_ syntax, leaving out
implementation-specific limitations, but specifying explicitly, that
an implementation will and can impose limitations.

A concrete compilation unit does have to conform to the syntactic
contraints imposed by the concrete compiler, not some abstract syntax.

When you want a program to be checked only against the abstract
syntax of the language standard, then you will also only get abstract
program which don't execute in reality, but only in abstract, i.e. in
your mind.

When a real world compiler concretizes the standard by imposing
certain limits on, say the number of WHEN clauses in an EVALUATE
statement, then exceeding these limits is a syntax error.

The concrete error message in this case would probably be:
"xxx exceeds the number of allowable WHEN clauses".



Yours,
Lüko Willms                                     http://www.mlwerke.de
/--------- L.WILLMS@jpberlin.de -- Alle Rechte vorbehalten --

"Ohne Pressefreiheit, Vereins- und Versammlungsrecht ist keine
Arbeiterbewegung möglich"        - Friedrich Engels      (Februar 1865)

In article <po0ac.6015$Dv2.2893@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
William M. Klein <wmklein@nospam.netcom.com> wrote:
><docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:c48tei$fug$1@panix1.panix.com...
 
><much snippage> 
>
>That would be true. ; HOWEVER, if the Standard
>  A) "allows for a particular syntax"
>        *and*
>  B) allows the implementation to place LIMITS and other additional restric
tions
>on the Standard supplied syntactic specifications
>
>Then
>   It is true  the implementation MAY OR MAY NOT BE conforming to the stand
ard,
>if the  compiler 'throws a 'syntax error'  for that particular syntax.

Mr Klein, this seems remarkably similar to a formulation found in

<http://groups.google.com/groups?sel...
&output=gplain>

--begin quoted text:

'It appears here, Mr Klein, that a vendor's implementation '...MUST
include the "Syntax Rules" and "general Formats" of the Standard'.  If
that is the case then a compiler which returns a syntax error for code
which complies with the Standard's Syntax Rules is neither right nor
wrong.'

--end quoted text

[snip]

>  The COBOL Standard (current and past) tells you when source code MUST get
 a
>syntax error (or an extension flag).  It does NOT tell you when it must get
 a
>"clean" compile (no syntax error).

Mr Klein, this is astounding.  The Standard lists all possible errors and
says 'none of these are any good' and gives no example of 'this is
acceptable syntax'?  It must be a much larger document than I imagined!

DD

In article <b_9ac.8135$lt2.7006@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
William M. Klein <wmklein@nospam.netcom.com> wrote:

[snip]

>HOWEVER, regardless of this, as far as COBOL goes, if you are talking about
 what
>is and is not a valid syntax error - you may ONLY apply the rules of the
>ANSI/ISO COBOL Standards (which are silent on this topic).

Mr Klein, you may have hit upon something here.  Consider:

The rules of the ANSI/ISO COBOL Standard say nothing about this condition.

The compiler says something (syntax error) about this condition.

The compiler says something (syntax error) which is not in the rules of
the ANSI/ISO COBOL Standard.

Have I made an error in definitions or logic here?  The syllogism appears
to be valid.

DD