Re:

wrote:

> "Jason Nocks" <nocksj@sourcextreme.com> wrote in message
>  news:f314e$405f994f$cff54506$14463@dcane
t.allthenewsgroups.com...
> 
> 
>
> Even thinking that of all the use cases, they "typically" take 3 months is
> wierd to me, if not to you.
>
> And how does the fact stories is plural _not_ mean that RCM sees the
> "typical" use case takes 3 months?

Are you serious?

If you are serious, I believe that Bob was talking about a single
release, which is composed of many stories (several iterations, each of
which contains several stories). In XP, Use Cases might be used to
describe User Stories. So, many User Stories would imply many Use Cases.

I really can't explain this any further and just have to assume that you
are just trolling.

<snip>

> Cheers to you to <g>,
>
> Especially for your GPL efforts,

Thanks.

>
> Elliott
>

Cheers,
Jason Nocks
SourceXtreme, Inc.
http://www.sourcextreme.com/

"Jason Nocks" <nocksj@sourcextreme.com> wrote in message
 news:72654$405fcbd2$cff54506$19230@dcane
t.allthenewsgroups.com...
>   wrote:
> 
is 
>
> Are you serious?
>
> If you are serious, I believe that Bob was talking about a single
> release, which is composed of many stories (several iterations, each of
> which contains several stories). In XP, Use Cases might be used to
> describe User Stories. So, many User Stories would imply many Use Cases.
>
> I really can't explain this any further and just have to assume that you
> are just trolling.
>

If you reread carefully a few times you will see the logic in my statement.
Further, if you "believe" what RCM was saying and are not certain you should
not be so quick slinging the "troll" designation.  You are not certain
yourself what RCM was saying and I'm giving one quite plausible
interpretation.

I'm not doing or saying or engaging comp.object for appearance, opportunism,
or FUD.  My goal here is to search for, explain and help develop the best in
OO software engineering.  You may accept that or not.

In that light what is so out of the way about thinking that RCM sees
creation of the average use case taking 3 months when he states:
Once stories have been gathered and 

RCM is stating here that a release is 3 months worth of effort.  I assume
parallel development of all use cases---i.e. all of the use cases to be
released in 3 months are  worked on simultaneously.

Wouldn't logic suggest that each use case takes about 3 months to create?
If not then RCM needs to seriously improve his communication skills.  He is
either leaving something major out right here, or he's adding superfluous
information.

Given my to the point, very detailed, serious comments in general in all
posts, why would I troll?  Trolling is for those who lack the ability to
address matters in an effective manner, or whom are not sincere about
wanting to improve OO sw engineering.  What in any posts you have read,
other than this one, indicates either to you about me?  Given it's only this
one, you should be slow to
make ugly, untoward comments.

Elliott

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 04:58:49 -0500, "Universe"
<universe@tAkEcovadOuT.net> wrote:

>In that light what is so out of the way about thinking that RCM sees
>creation of the average use case taking 3 months when he states:
>Once stories have been gathered and 
>
>RCM is stating here that a release is 3 months worth of effort.  I assume
>parallel development of all use cases---i.e. all of the use cases to be
>released in 3 months are  worked on simultaneously.
>
>Wouldn't logic suggest that each use case takes about 3 months to create?
>If not then RCM needs to seriously improve his communication skills.  He is
>either leaving something major out right here, or he's adding superfluous
>information.

I'm building a kitchen, and it will take three months. Wouldn't logic
suggest that each feature of the kitchen, the installation of the
sink, the building of the cabinets, the installing of the cabinets,
the laying of the floor tile, putting the granite on the countertop,
and putting the dishes in the cabinets will all take about three
months to do?

Well, no. Projects are not made up of a whole skein of tasks all
spanning from the beginning clear through to the end. Things are built
upon things. (*)

Iterations are a few ws long. Releases are a few months long. Ws
are shorter than months. Stories are therefore smaller than releases.

Please. You have been railing about XP for years now, and it becomes
more and more clear every day that you don't know the most basic
things about XP.

Please either start learning about it or stop talking.

Should you at some time in the future present a better-founded idea on
some topic, I'm concerned that your record here will cause people not
to take you seriously. Your reputation is at stake. If you choose to
speak on a subject, it should be one that you have studied and that
you know about.

To date, XP does not appear to be one of those subjects that you know
about. If you did, you might be better able to contribute something to
the state of the programming art. That would be a good thing.


(*) If projects were made up of a large number of "use cases", each
one spanning from the very beginning to the very end, the probability
of any project ending on time would approach zero, since all it would
take would be for one use case to be late, and the whole project would
be late. Hmm, come to think of it, maybe that's what's wrong with so
many projects ... ;->

--
Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
I'm giving the best advice I have. You get to decide if it's true for you.

Universe wrote:

> "Jason Nocks" <nocksj@sourcextreme.com> wrote in message
>  news:72654$405fcbd2$cff54506$19230@dcane
t.allthenewsgroups.com...
> 
> is
> 

Here I am explaining again that a release is composed of multiple
(plural) iterations, and that each iteration is composed of multiple
(plural) stories. So each individual story could not possibly take 3
months. That would indicate that only one story would be accomplished,
or at best one iteration (if # developers = # stories). Since it has
been stated that there are multiple iterations, what you stated cannot
possibly make sense based on what has been stated *over* and *over*
again. This is getting exceedingly boring.
 
>
> If you reread carefully a few times you will see the logic in my statement.[/color
]

Nope. I can assure you that I have done that (I have reread carefully
and provided careful analysis even though it appears to me that you are
trolling) and am unable to see the logic in your statements. Further, I
fail to understand why you would repeat the same things over and over
without actually listening to the response. Hence, my conclusion is that
you are trolling. If I am wrong, then I apologize.

> Further, if you "believe" what RCM was saying and are not certain you shou
ld
> not be so quick slinging the "troll" designation.  You are not certain

Quick? Does anyone think that this thread of posts resulted in a quick
designation of trolling? From what little research I have done, this
behavior is consistent with your posts for quite some time. If I am too
quick, again, I apologize. Just voicing my opinion.

> yourself what RCM was saying and I'm giving one quite plausible
> interpretation.

IMHO, the only way to achieve your inplausible interpretation is to
*try* to misinterpret what RCM posted. This is my opinion, and I freely
admit that I could be wrong. Your ongoing behavior suggests otherwise to me.

> I'm not doing or saying or engaging comp.object for appearance, opportunis
m,
> or FUD.  My goal here is to search for, explain and help develop the best 
in
> OO software engineering.  You may accept that or not.

I don't pretend to understand your motivations. I only wish to convey
how they appear to me.

> In that light what is so out of the way about thinking that RCM sees
> creation of the average use case taking 3 months when he states:
> Once stories have been gathered and
> 

Because, I have seen it explained numerous times that releases are
composed of iterations, and that iterations are composed of stories. If
you actually tried to understand the topic you so actively criticise,
you would understand that all of the stories in an iteration are
completed during that iteration. And I have seen it explained over and
over again that an iteration typically is composed of a few ws.

> RCM is stating here that a release is 3 months worth of effort.  I assume
> parallel development of all use cases---i.e. all of the use cases to be
> released in 3 months are  worked on simultaneously.

Your assumption is flat out incorrect, and has been pointed out. The XP
practices are well documented. I have seen these practises explained
numerous times. If you seriously listened to any of these explanations,
I can't understand how you could conclude that every individual story
always takes 3 months to complete.

> Wouldn't logic suggest that each use case takes about 3 months to create?

No. Logic suggests that you are trolling.

> If not then RCM needs to seriously improve his communication skills.  He is[/color
]

Bob Martin is one of the best speakers I have ever heard in person.
IMHO, consistently misinterpreting what he says requires effort. To me,
that is trolling.

> either leaving something major out right here, or he's adding superfluous
> information.
>
> Given my to the point, very detailed, serious comments in general in all
> posts, why would I troll?  Trolling is for those who lack the ability to
> address matters in an effective manner, or whom are not sincere about
> wanting to improve OO sw engineering.  What in any posts you have read,
> other than this one, indicates either to you about me?  Given it's only th
is
> one, you should be slow to
> make ugly, untoward comments.

This is not meant as an ugly comment, merely my best attempt to try to
explain how things appear to me. If you are truly here for some reason
other than trolling any XP-related posts, great. Then, I am truly sorry.

If you do not wish to appear to be trolling, then I would suggest that
you either cease to actively misinterpret things that are explained over
and over again, or try listening more closely when you challenge
everything XP-related. The choice is yours.

>
> Elliott
>

Cheers,
Jason Nocks
SourceXtreme, Inc.
http://www.sourcextreme.com/

wrote:

> On 21 Apr 2004 22:31:54 -0700, xboxgamedev@hotmail.com (Frank N.
> Stein) wrote:
<snip>
>
> The charter for this forum is discussion of Extreme Programming. This
> material above perhaps belongs on alt.venting or
> alt.other-peoples-children.raving.

Thanks for the clarification.

I was having trouble correlating the posts about Britney Spears,
lesbians, things to do with snakes, and now Frankenstein, er Frank N
Stein. What next?

Cheers,
Jason Nocks
SourceXtreme, Inc.
http://www.sourcextreme.com/