Changeing coding styles was Re: Help! GO TO and PERFORM THRU!

On Sun, 4 Mar 2007 15:06:15 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf@panix.com () wrote:

>In article <54vn4eF22qc81U1@mid.individual.net>,
>Pete Dashwood <dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote: 
>
>Yet Mr Hottel sees a need to revisit it... perhaps something new may be
>learnt from this revisiting.
> 
>
>That is the basis of contractural fulfillment, certainly.
> 
>
>Mr Dashwood, if the arguments you bring forward for structuring a slew of
>IF... ELSE code are so insubstantial that you need to base them in the
>ash-beds of the Auschwitcz crematoria then perhaps you might do well to
>revisit them.
>
>In accordance with Godwin's Law
>http://catb.org/esr/jargon/html/G/Godwins-Law.html) this thread may be
>considered ended... but it might be interesting to see where Mr Dashwood's
>logic takes it.
> 
>
>No, Mr Dashwood, code should be structured in fashions which are most
>readily apprensible by majority of the maintaining-base of pgrogrammers,
>the 'shop standard', as it were.  No 'Nicht Schuldig!', no 'Befehl is
>Befehl'... you take the King's penny, Mr Dashwood, and you write to the
>King's specs.  Don't like it?  Don't take the job... but if you *do* take
>the job and don't write to the specs then don't be surprised if your work
>doesn't pass Prod review.
>
>[snip]
> 
>
>... and when they say 'That's a very pretty argument... but our standards
>are *only* PERFORM... THRU EXIT, every sentence  - and we like 'em *short*
>here! - ends with a period and the precompiler will flag SEARCH as invalid
>syntax' then you decide whether you can deal with this sort of exercise in
>minimalism or whether your delicate, artistic nature is just too...
>*gentle* to survive under such crushing restrictions.

While change of style should not be undertaken frequently or lightly,
when carried to the extreme you have just claimed for one
installation, it becomes a real drag on the company and is the sort of
mentality that makes COBOL less useful in newer situations.  It is an
example of why I claim it is Fortress Management that refuses to
evolve existing tools yet embraces every new fad that has blocked OO
COBOL.  This has been aided and abetted by vendors that are extremely
expensive or in the case of the IBM mainframe have at best only
recently made tools available that even come close to what Pete has
described as being available for C#.  Developing OO code using Endevor
(I can't remember the spelling) and ISPF does not sound straight
forward to me.  The problem is not Fortress COBOL in terms of the
working population.  The problem lies higher up the food chain.

Yes, I can code to some of the restrictions you mention but do I want
to be at a company that is that brain dead?  Since I am semi-retired,
the money would have to be fantastic or there would have to be other
compensating factors for me to even consider it. 

"Clark F Morris" <cfmpublic@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
 news:862mu25a973j9psbv1athkci3j2s7uka9c@
4ax.com...
> On Sun, 4 Mar 2007 15:06:15 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf@panix.com () wrote:
> 
>
> While change of style should not be undertaken frequently or lightly,
> when carried to the extreme you have just claimed for one
> installation, it becomes a real drag on the company and is the sort of
> mentality that makes COBOL less useful in newer situations.  It is an
> example of why I claim it is Fortress Management that refuses to
> evolve existing tools yet embraces every new fad that has blocked OO
> COBOL.  This has been aided and abetted by vendors that are extremely
> expensive or in the case of the IBM mainframe have at best only
> recently made tools available that even come close to what Pete has
> described as being available for C#.  Developing OO code using Endevor
> (I can't remember the spelling) and ISPF does not sound straight
> forward to me.  The problem is not Fortress COBOL in terms of the
> working population.  The problem lies higher up the food chain.
>

Obviously, I completely agree. I think that dissent can help these managers
to understand what is necessary on the shop floor and get that passed on to
vendors. The same applies to S & P and the use of tools.

There SHOULD be proper tools for COBOL (God knows, it's been around long
enough) but as long as no-one grizzles, there won't be. (Sadly, it is now
probably too late; COBOL has lost Management credibility and is unlikely to
regain it.)

We haven't even considered the effect such management attitude has on morale
and, consequently, productivity.

> Yes, I can code to some of the restrictions you mention but do I want
> to be at a company that is that brain dead?  Since I am semi-retired,
> the money would have to be fantastic or there would have to be other
> compensating factors for me to even consider it. 

Precisely. The important thing is to have a choice.

Pete.

In article <862mu25a973j9psbv1athkci3j2s7uka9c@4ax.com>,
Clark F Morris  <cfmpublic@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>On Sun, 4 Mar 2007 15:06:15 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf@panix.com () wrote:
> 

[snip]

>The problem is not Fortress COBOL in terms of the
>working population.  The problem lies higher up the food chain.

*Bingo*, Mr Hottel.  'A fish rots from the head'; what one may be
attributing to 'Fortress COBOL' may be the fault of nothing more than,
say, a situation similar to that of the American automobile industry,
circa 1972, in which Everyone Knew Nobody Wanted No Li'l-Bitty Cars, or
the Banking Industry in the 3-6-3 days (pay 3% interest on deposits,
collect 6% interest on loans and be on the golf links at 3:pm), or when
every newspaper editorial board Knew As Fact that a decent citizen wanted
a copy of the Daily Muck delivered to his doorstep, right next to the milk
bottles.

>
>Yes, I can code to some of the restrictions you mention but do I want
>to be at a company that is that brain dead?  Since I am semi-retired,
>the money would have to be fantastic or there would have to be other
>compensating factors for me to even consider it.

In general, Mr Hottel, I find that Work is better than Not... but I recall
a situation from decades on back when yes, I *needed* the job, I had rent
to pay and student loans that needed to be attended-to... and the software
vendor was selling the Corner-Office Idiot I reported to a load of crap,
their package could not be made to do what they said it could... and
deadline was slipping and I was getting blamed... and blamed in public.

Only problem is... I addressed the assignment of responsibility as I did
any other logical difficulty; step up to the whiteboard, fall into Formal
Logic Mode and show, step by step, where the errors in assumptions were,
where the shortcomings in product were and what steps I had taken to get
around them... in short, I demonstrated, in public, that this fellow was
wrong and that his approach needed to be changed... but at least I was
gentle about it.

So... they called in my pimp; he listened to what I had to say... glanced
over the paperwork and said 'Look, I know this vendor, they've done this
before, their product is crap, you are right and Jones is wrong... and I
also know that Jones has been with the company for twenty-seven years so
he can say that the sun rises in the west if he wants to.  Do you want to
be right or do you want to keep your job?'

My papers were on the streets that afternoon... and I do not blame
'Fortress Cobol' for this, I blame my own seduction by the heroic exploits
of that well-known navigator, Popeye the Sailor-Man who, after receiving
sufficient rebuffs to more reasonable offerings, announces 'That's all I
can stand, I can't stands no more!'... and for youngsters or those who
need a bit of comic escape the results have been called 'amusing' for
decades.

In general... I present my definitions, postulates, common notions and
propositions as to how I have come to a conclusion.  Sometimes I'll even
handicap myself a bit - I'm deadly serious about shops where SEARCH gets
flagged as 'forbidden' by a precompiler and reading PMAPs of ways to get
around it has, I believe, taught me a thing or three - but after a while
it is time to hit the old lonesome highway.  Other readers here may have
been in positions where in the example above Jones gets told 'Do what the
nice consultant says or start collecting your pension three years
early'... this has never happened to me... ahhhh, but there's Hope, and it
is a wonderful world that has new experiences in it!

DD

<docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:esfj7a$d8q$1@reader2.panix.com...
> In article <862mu25a973j9psbv1athkci3j2s7uka9c@4ax.com>,
> Clark F Morris  <cfmpublic@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote: 
>
> [snip]
> 
>
> *Bingo*, Mr Hottel.  'A fish rots from the head'; what one may be
> attributing to 'Fortress COBOL' may be the fault of nothing more than,
> say, a situation similar to that of the American automobile industry,
> circa 1972, in which Everyone Knew Nobody Wanted No Li'l-Bitty Cars, or
> the Banking Industry in the 3-6-3 days (pay 3% interest on deposits,
> collect 6% interest on loans and be on the golf links at 3:pm), or when
> every newspaper editorial board Knew As Fact that a decent citizen wanted
> a copy of the Daily Muck delivered to his doorstep, right next to the milk
> bottles.
> 
>
> In general, Mr Hottel, I find that Work is better than Not... but I recall
> a situation from decades on back when yes, I *needed* the job, I had rent
> to pay and student loans that needed to be attended-to... and the software
> vendor was selling the Corner-Office Idiot I reported to a load of crap,
> their package could not be made to do what they said it could... and
> deadline was slipping and I was getting blamed... and blamed in public.
>
> Only problem is... I addressed the assignment of responsibility as I did
> any other logical difficulty; step up to the whiteboard, fall into Formal
> Logic Mode and show, step by step, where the errors in assumptions were,
> where the shortcomings in product were and what steps I had taken to get
> around them... in short, I demonstrated, in public, that this fellow was
> wrong and that his approach needed to be changed... but at least I was
> gentle about it.
>
> So... they called in my pimp; he listened to what I had to say... glanced
> over the paperwork and said 'Look, I know this vendor, they've done this
> before, their product is crap, you are right and Jones is wrong... and I
> also know that Jones has been with the company for twenty-seven years so
> he can say that the sun rises in the west if he wants to.  Do you want to
> be right or do you want to keep your job?'
>
> My papers were on the streets that afternoon... and I do not blame
> 'Fortress Cobol' for this, I blame my own seduction by the heroic exploits
> of that well-known navigator, Popeye the Sailor-Man who, after receiving
> sufficient rebuffs to more reasonable offerings, announces 'That's all I
> can stand, I can't stands no more!'... and for youngsters or those who
> need a bit of comic escape the results have been called 'amusing' for
> decades.
>
> In general... I present my definitions, postulates, common notions and
> propositions as to how I have come to a conclusion.  Sometimes I'll even
> handicap myself a bit - I'm deadly serious about shops where SEARCH gets
> flagged as 'forbidden' by a precompiler and reading PMAPs of ways to get
> around it has, I believe, taught me a thing or three - but after a while
> it is time to hit the old lonesome highway.  Other readers here may have
> been in positions where in the example above Jones gets told 'Do what the
> nice consultant says or start collecting your pension three years
> early'... this has never happened to me... ahhhh, but there's Hope, and it
> is a wonderful world that has new experiences in it!
>
> DD
>

Well "decades back"  it was a much different employment situation.  I have
moved on from jobs that I did not like and sometimes the new one was better
and sometimes it was not. In the process I have learned the level of poor
management I can tolerate.

In article <I7LGh.9347$tD2.1664@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
Charles Hottel <chottel@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
><docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:esfj7a$d8q$1@reader2.panix.com...[/color
]

[snip]
 
>
>Well "decades back"  it was a much different employment situation.

That might depend, Mr Hottel, on whom one asks... and there are a few
folks whom I've met - believe it or not! - who, decades later, still
*need* the job, have rent to pay and loans that need to be attended-to...
and Corner-Office Idiots blaming them in public for not being able to make
software packages do what salesfolk had promised the Corner-Office
Idiots said packagaes could be made to do.

As the Germans used to say, Mr Mottel: Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme
chose.

>I have
>moved on from jobs that I did not like and sometimes the new one was better
>and sometimes it was not. In the process I have learned the level of poor
>management I can tolerate.

Experience can be a wonderful teacher, Mr Hottel... but such rates!

DD