[OT] Of Java and C#

I've got to say, to those of you who recommended _Sams Teach Yourself
Java 2 in 21 Days_ as a Java learning tool - that book is excellent!
I've completed the first 7 days, and OO is finally "clicking" in my
mind.  Thanks for the great recommendation.

In conjunction with that, I've also written my first C# class, which we
(will, starting next w) use with our COBOL configuration management
system to create program/proc (copybook), program/call, and
program/reject cross-references.  (I'll share it if anyone is interested
- it's also going to update a program/database item xref when it's
completely done, but that code is a bit more complex than the other 3.)
I'm very happy with the way it worked, although I was bitten by a
couple of things that are different than Java.

I agree with Pete Dashwood's assertion that the IDE makes development a
piece of cake.  I started writing this class on Wednesday, and had it
completely debugged by Friday at noon!


--
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~   /   \  /         ~        Live from Montgomery, AL!       ~
~  /     \/       o  ~                                        ~
~ /      /\   -   |  ~          daniel@thebelowdomain         ~
~ _____ /  \      |  ~      http://www.djs-consulting.com     ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e    ~
~ h---- r+++ z++++                                            ~
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Who is more irrational?  A man who believes in a God he doesn't see, or
a man who's offended by a God he doesn't believe in?" - Brad Stine

Hi Daniel,

not sure if this is the Rogers Cadenhead book I recommended or not.. I
thought it was Java 2 in 24 hours... Whether it is or not, very pleased to
see you have found something that was of use and shared it with the group.

Didn't realise you were getting into C#. I am deep into it now and will
deliver my first commercial application next w.  ( I stress that this is
"hobby" commerce and I won't be getting a real job again until April when
the Summer here is over...:-)) At last the weather is improving (we've had a
very wet summer) and it will be good to get out of the house and away from
programming for a while.

The new application is concerned with NZ Postal Address Validation (it
sounds trivial, but actually it is very complex... :-)) and uses a major
legacy COM component I wrote in OO COBOL some time ago. I used the Interop
classes to connect the managed and unmanaged code, and at one point I
thought it was never going to work :-). I had some major problems and have
documented them and the solutions on the MicroSoft C# forum, where everyone
was bewildered to imagine that COBOL would be used with C# :-). It is a
tribute to the claimed interoperability of C# that everything functioned
exactly as it was supposed to (once I got it right :-)) and COBOL plays
nicely with the managed code just like any other language. You don't even
need to get OO COBOL for DotNET; existing legacy COBOL can be wrapped into
this environment VERY easily. (Obviously, if you use a DotNET compiler your
code will be MSIL and so will be "managed" as opposed to "unmanaged", but I
don't see this as warrranting the cost of a DotNET compiler. C# is every bit
as good as COBOL for development (better, in many areas) so nothing is to be
gained by perpetuating COBOL development on the PC platform. The one thing
that would give me pause, would be having to write off all my existing COBOL
investment. I am now completely satisfied that I don't have to, so I'm
afraid Fujitsu are on their own as far as I'm concerned... :-).

[How different a story this might have been, if someone had bothered to
contact me when I wanted to purchase DotNET COBOL and had several thousand
US Dollars in my hot little hand, allocated for that purpose. Obviously,
they are doing so well they don't need to pursue custom, but if I was
running that company, someone would be doing some explaining... Never mind.
Water under the bridge, and if I hadn't been pushed, I wouldn't have found
the joys of C#. Most of us tend to stay with what we know until it becomes
untenable. I have learned something from all of this].

MicroSoft, although much maligned :-), have invested huge money in creating
the DotNET framework and ensuring interoperability. This is a major advance
for application developers and MS deserve credit for it. (I still can't
believe they make this, and the IDE, available for FREE...:-))

Now that it is working, I have to say I am very impressed with C#.

For example, I wanted the errors from a batch process to be written to an
Excel spreadsheet, so that someone could go through them and apply manual
fixes, update the status of the error on the spreadsheet and add any
comments for others. Under Office 2007, Excel spreadsheets are easily
shareable on the network, so this means that several people could be working
correcting errors from the same error reporting spreadsheet. The error
spreadsheet  had to be created on the fly and updated with error information
as the errors were detected, and this had to happen from within the same C#
process that was interfacing to unmanaged code.

Creating and updating the error spreadsheet was a 30 minute job, and that
included finding out how to do it!

I was blown away by the simplicity of it, having tried similar exercises in
OO COBOL using COM Automation. (They worked, but it took days...) (The C#
solution is also using COM Automation, but all the hard work is encapsulated
into classes under the covers that do everything for you and you don't even
have to be aware of them...)

From now on, the error logs from all my applications will be purely for
system problems and the "Error Reports" will be Excel spreadsheets...

I  am becoming more and more convinced that the difference in productivity
between COBOL and C# is largely down to the IDE and the vast amount of
information that is at your fingertips when using C#. I found any number of
articles, including sample code, when I searched on accessing Excel from C#.
And it is SO good to get sample code that is actually in the language you
are using, rather than having to translate VB into COBOL  :-) Having said
that, I also like the simple elegance of C#. It is a very good compromise
between Java and C++ in my opinion.

Daniel, I'm really glad you found VS 2005 to be what I said it was. Thanks
for endorsing my comments.

It rocks!

Pete.



"LX-i" <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote in message
 news:c60ae$45bb58f6$454920f8$17651@KNOLO
GY.NET...
> I've got to say, to those of you who recommended _Sams Teach Yourself Java
> 2 in 21 Days_ as a Java learning tool - that book is excellent! I've
> completed the first 7 days, and OO is finally "clicking" in my mind.
> Thanks for the great recommendation.
>
> In conjunction with that, I've also written my first C# class, which we
> (will, starting next w) use with our COBOL configuration management
> system to create program/proc (copybook), program/call, and program/reject
> cross-references.  (I'll share it if anyone is interested - it's also
> going to update a program/database item xref when it's completely done,
> but that code is a bit more complex than the other 3.) I'm very happy with
> the way it worked, although I was bitten by a couple of things that are
> different than Java.
>
> I agree with Pete Dashwood's assertion that the IDE makes development a
> piece of cake.  I started writing this class on Wednesday, and had it
> completely debugged by Friday at noon!
>
>
> --
>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~   /   \  /         ~        Live from Montgomery, AL!       ~
> ~  /     \/       o  ~                                        ~
> ~ /      /\   -   |  ~          daniel@thebelowdomain         ~
> ~ _____ /  \      |  ~      http://www.djs-consulting.com     ~
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> ~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
> ~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e    ~
> ~ h---- r+++ z++++                                            ~
>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> "Who is more irrational?  A man who believes in a God he doesn't see, or a
> man who's offended by a God he doesn't believe in?" - Brad Stine

Pete Dashwood wrote:
> Hi Daniel,
>
> not sure if this is the Rogers Cadenhead book I recommended or not.. I
> thought it was Java 2 in 24 hours... Whether it is or not, very pleased to
> see you have found something that was of use and shared it with the group.

Heh - well, he did both.  The "Java 2 in 24 Hours" (according to Rogers)
is for people who come from a blank slate as far as software development
goes, while the book I named is geared more towards folks who already
know programming to some extent.  (That's what he said in Appendix A.)
It does seem to move at a pretty good clip, though - there have been
sections I've had to go back and read again, the do the example program,
then go back and read it yet again.  However, that technique usually
makes the point apparent.  :)

Here are the topics, by day, with the appendices...
W 1 - The Java Language
- Day 1 - Getting Started with Java
- Day 2 - The ABCs of Programming
- Day 3 - Working with Objects
- Day 4 - Lists, Logic, and Loops
- Day 5 - Creating Classes and Methods
- Day 6 - Packages, Interfaces, and Other Class Features
- Day 7 - Threads, Exceptions, and Assertions
W 2 - The Java Class Library
- Day 8 - Data Structures
- Day 9 - Working with Swing
- Day 10 - Building a Swing Interface
- Day 11 - Arranging Components on a User Interface
- Day 12 - Responding to User Input
- Day 13 - Using Color, Fonts, and Graphics
- Day 14 - Writing Java Applets and Java Web Start Applications
W 3 - Java Programming
- Day 15 - Working with Input and Output
- Day 16 - Serializing and Examining Objects
- Day 17 - Communicating Across the Internet
- Day 18 - JavaSound
- Day 19 - Creating and Using JavaBeans
- Day 20 - Reading and Writing Data Using JDBC and XML
- Day 21 - Writing Java Servlets and Java Server Pages
Appendices
A - Choosing Java
B - Using the Java Development Kit
C - Programming with the Java Development Kit
D - Using the NetBeans Integrated Development Environment
E - Writing Java 1.1 Applets
F - Creating Web Services with XML-RPC
G - Regular Expressions
H - Where to Go From Here: Java Resources
I - The Book's Website

The latter is http://www.java21days.com - click on the "Fourth Edition"
link.  The example classes and Java source files are there, if you want
to see the code he uses to teach these.

(BTW, threads are really, REALLY !)

> Didn't realise you were getting into C#.

Well, I hadn't planned on it.  At one point, I was responsible for our
home-brewed CM system, and am now the alternate programmer for it.  The
lead guy is working on a .NET conversion, partly to get around the
limitations of the current ActiveX controls we currently use.

When programmers check in a source code file, there are several checks
we do to it, and cross-references that should be updated.  The new .NET
check-in page was deployed last month, and has been the most troublesome
page in the system ever since.  Within the system itself, there is the
capability to create a control number against the system, and there have
been a couple of formal bug reports.

Monday this past w was day 3, "Working with Objects".  This was also
the day that I took it upon myself to begin writing the design for the
changes we would do to fix these problems.  It came to me - a lot of
these processes need to do a line-by-line analysis of the code.  Why not
write one object to do it all?

(Of course, within the object there are many different methods, all but
one protected.  As I mentioned in my last post, I'll post it here Monday
evening (unless otherwise prevented).)

[snip]

> MicroSoft, although much maligned :-), have invested huge money in creatin
g
> the DotNET framework and ensuring interoperability. This is a major advanc
e
> for application developers and MS deserve credit for it. (I still can't
> believe they make this, and the IDE, available for FREE...:-))

There are probably several entities you can thank for that - most of
which are responsible for the "much malign"ing of Microsoft...

[snip]

> From now on, the error logs from all my applications will be purely for
> system problems and the "Error Reports" will be Excel spreadsheets...
>
> I  am becoming more and more convinced that the difference in productivity
> between COBOL and C# is largely down to the IDE and the vast amount of
> information that is at your fingertips when using C#. I found any number o
f
> articles, including sample code, when I searched on accessing Excel from C
#.
> And it is SO good to get sample code that is actually in the language you
> are using, rather than having to translate VB into COBOL  :-) Having said
> that, I also like the simple elegance of C#. It is a very good compromise
> between Java and C++ in my opinion.

Is this app is running on Windows proper or on a web server?  I'm
finding that, more and more, I can't even think of an app to try to
write that isn't web-based.  :)  Maybe a library app - we have a good
number of books, and my wife has begun home-schooling.  Even then,
though, the database would have to be centralized.  I'm actually
thinking about writing that - but at this point, I'm really undecided
about whether to go with Java or C#.  I think it would be good for my
skills in whichever language I decide to go with.  Java would run under
Linux, but supposedly so would C#, using Mono's CLR.

> Daniel, I'm really glad you found VS 2005 to be what I said it was. Thanks
> for endorsing my comments.

You're welcome.  The IDE is very good.  One thing I found was that it
actually caught syntax errors, because the method/property list that I
got wasn't the one I expected.  :)  (Although, one gripe - it really
OUGHT to know that it can convert a .Substring(x,1) to a Char...  but
no, Convert.ToChar(var.Substring(x,1)); )  heh - look at that, my
parenthesis actually match!  ;)

Coincidentally, "Visual SlickEdit" (now known as just "SlickEdit") was
mentioned in Appendix A of the Java book.  I've been entering the code
using it, and once I told it where the JDK was, it'll pop up methods and
properties for me too.  It's not quite as thorough as the C# IDE, but
I'm familiar with it, so it feels comfortable.  :)

--
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~   /   \  /         ~        Live from Montgomery, AL!       ~
~  /     \/       o  ~                                        ~
~ /      /\   -   |  ~          daniel@thebelowdomain         ~
~ _____ /  \      |  ~      http://www.djs-consulting.com     ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e    ~
~ h---- r+++ z++++                                            ~
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Who is more irrational?  A man who believes in a God he doesn't see, or
a man who's offended by a God he doesn't believe in?" - Brad Stine

"LX-i" <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote in message
 news:3894e$45bbfa7f$454920f8$9297@KNOLOG
Y.NET...
> Pete Dashwood wrote: 
>
> Heh - well, he did both.  The "Java 2 in 24 Hours" (according to Rogers)
> is for people who come from a blank slate as far as software development
> goes,

That's right, I remember now... I bought this book some years ago and
decided I wanted to approach Java as a complete newbie. I absolutely loved
the book and still think it is the best "Teach Yourself Programming" book I
have ever come across.


while the book I named is geared more towards folks who already
> know programming to some extent.  (That's what he said in Appendix A.) It
> does seem to move at a pretty good clip, though - there have been sections
> I've had to go back and read again, the do the example program, then go
> back and read it yet again.  However, that technique usually makes the
> point apparent.  :)
>
> Here are the topics, by day, with the appendices...
> W 1 - The Java Language
>  - Day 1 - Getting Started with Java
>  - Day 2 - The ABCs of Programming
>  - Day 3 - Working with Objects
>  - Day 4 - Lists, Logic, and Loops
>  - Day 5 - Creating Classes and Methods
>  - Day 6 - Packages, Interfaces, and Other Class Features
>  - Day 7 - Threads, Exceptions, and Assertions
> W 2 - The Java Class Library
>  - Day 8 - Data Structures
>  - Day 9 - Working with Swing
>  - Day 10 - Building a Swing Interface
>  - Day 11 - Arranging Components on a User Interface
>  - Day 12 - Responding to User Input
>  - Day 13 - Using Color, Fonts, and Graphics
>  - Day 14 - Writing Java Applets and Java Web Start Applications
> W 3 - Java Programming
>  - Day 15 - Working with Input and Output
>  - Day 16 - Serializing and Examining Objects
>  - Day 17 - Communicating Across the Internet
>  - Day 18 - JavaSound
>  - Day 19 - Creating and Using JavaBeans
>  - Day 20 - Reading and Writing Data Using JDBC and XML
>  - Day 21 - Writing Java Servlets and Java Server Pages
> Appendices
> A - Choosing Java
> B - Using the Java Development Kit
> C - Programming with the Java Development Kit
> D - Using the NetBeans Integrated Development Environment
> E - Writing Java 1.1 Applets
> F - Creating Web Services with XML-RPC
> G - Regular Expressions
> H - Where to Go From Here: Java Resources
> I - The Book's Website

Excellent! Looks pretty comprehensive.

I have just received "C# in a Nutshell (second edition)" from O'Reilly. It's
the first book I've had on C# and is kind of a quick reference. There is a
CD in the back cover which plugs into the Visual Studio online help system
and gives you immediate access to everything in the book... :-) an
interesting trend in publishing, I think :-). Unfortunately, it only works
with VS 2003, and i am using VS 2005 :-) I have written to O'Reilly; watch
this space...

> The latter is http://www.java21days.com - click on the "Fourth Edition"
> link.  The example classes and Java source files are there, if you want to
> see the code he uses to teach these.
>
> (BTW, threads are really, REALLY !)

Yes, I remember thinking that too...:-) I like the idea of "listener"s...:-)

> 
>
> Well, I hadn't planned on it.  At one point, I was responsible for our
> home-brewed CM system, and am now the alternate programmer for it.  The
> lead guy is working on a .NET conversion, partly to get around the
> limitations of the current ActiveX controls we currently use.
>
> When programmers check in a source code file, there are several checks we
> do to it, and cross-references that should be updated.  The new .NET
> check-in page was deployed last month, and has been the most troublesome
> page in the system ever since.  Within the system itself, there is the
> capability to create a control number against the system, and there have
> been a couple of formal bug reports.
>
> Monday this past w was day 3, "Working with Objects".  This was also
> the day that I took it upon myself to begin writing the design for the
> changes we would do to fix these problems.  It came to me - a lot of these
> processes need to do a line-by-line analysis of the code.  Why not write
> one object to do it all?

I think you are talking about a Class rather than an object...? It sometimes
helps to think in terms you are familiar with; in this context the Class is
like a COBOL program with each of the Methods being a nested program. The
Class ties them all together (as well as providing factory methods for
common processing).
>
> (Of course, within the object there are many different methods, all but
> one protected.  As I mentioned in my last post, I'll post it here Monday
> evening (unless otherwise prevented).)

I don't think it matters too much whether the terminology is right or even
whether you are sticking to OO principles here. At this stage, the idea is
to get experience and have a productive spin-off from the learning process
(that's how I approach it and I've already gone back and refined some stuff
I wrote a few ws ago, before I acquired the knowledge I have now. The
nice thing is that it is easy in C# to amend stuff and shuffle Classes,
Methods, and Forms around.)

A major challenge I found was defining COBOL data structures in C#. I had
several goes at this and am happy with what I have now. The early attempts
worked, but were not elegant; I have something now that will allow me to
GENERATE these definitions in future. (I still have to write the generator
and that is on my TO DO list; meantime I can build them manually from the
templated approach I have developed. REDEFINES and OCCURS are somewhat
problematic... :-), the rest is pretty easy, once you grasp the underlying
concepts and learn how to create fixed length strings and hierarchically
structure them. Obviously, this is pretty essential if legacy is to be
invoked from C#. (BTW, you can't use the C# 'struct' for this because it is
a TypeValue structure and unmanged code requires TypeRef structures passed
to it... I wasted about a day and a half on that :-))

>
> [snip]
> 
>
> There are probably several entities you can thank for that - most of which
> are responsible for the "much malign"ing of Microsoft...
>
> [snip]
> 
>
> Is this app is running on Windows proper or on a web server?

Initially on the desktop under Windows.Net Framework.

There are different implementations for people with different degrees of
computer literacy. The validation engine is the heart of it, but interfacing
it to existing systems is another major part of it. The desktop incarnation
is aimed at people who have no computer literacy and simply want a solution.
It will search their existing system data, find the address related data,
build a Dataset for it, and present each row of the dataset to the engine,
which will return the necessary changes, and these are then applied. The
interface is completely flexible and will work for any relational database
that is built with MySQL, MS Access, or SQL Server. (MYOB, DB2, and
Greentree are in the pipeline). The engine can accept completely free-format
addresses so it is not necessary to have fixed fields for street, city, etc.
This engine is written as a COM server in OO COBOL and it took me 3 months
to get it right (I seriously underestimated the difficulties in handling
free-format addresses...) It currently processes with over 90% accuracy and
this will be further improved in the coming w. (It is about tuning fuzzy
logic and making sure the Postal Database is accurate) The completely
flexible interface on the other hand is written in C# and took a couple of
ws.

The next step is to wrap the engine as a Web Service and put it on a server.
I expect to have that working fully before the end of Feb, and was exploring
the vagaries of WSDL today :-)

So the people who can't be expected to extract their data or present it for
the engine are covered, and it goes on the first live site next w. (They
have over 5000 addresses and changing them manually would be a very
unpleasant and error prone task.)

Then there are the ones who write their own software (or at least are
capable of doing so). They don't want a full solution, they want a tool.
Providing access to the validation engine as a web service is a good
solution for them. They can run it from my server or their own. The ones who
write VBA macros can connect to the web service as a data source. There will
be some who will want the engine as a COM component and that is no problem
either. I have already tested it as a DCOM + component and have used
component services to generate the necessary .msi for client install.

Once the web service is written my biggest problem is going to be promoting
the service and writing a web site for it. Never mind. One step at a time...
:-)


> I'm finding that, more and more, I can't even think of an app to try to
> write that isn't web-based.  :)

Funny that, isn't it...? :-)

The power of the network is insidious and permeates everything. Businesses
are fnding this too and that's why interoperability is going to be the new
buzzword. True platform independence is the solution for network services.
And I foresee Service Oriented Architectures becoming the future, based
around web services.

> Maybe a library app - we have a good number of books, and my wife has
> begun home-schooling.  Even then, though, the database would have to be
> centralized.  I'm actually thinking about writing that - but at this
> point, I'm really undecided about whether to go with Java or C#.  I think
> it would be good for my skills in whichever language I decide to go with.
> Java would run under Linux, but supposedly so would C#, using Mono's CLR.
>

Either are good chices and I use both, but I'm tending more towards C#
lately... (You may have noticed :-))
 
>
> You're welcome.  The IDE is very good.  One thing I found was that it
> actually caught syntax errors, because the method/property list that I got
> wasn't the one I expected.  :)  (Although, one gripe - it really OUGHT to
> know that it can convert a .Substring(x,1) to a Char...  but no,
> Convert.ToChar(var.Substring(x,1)); )  heh - look at that, my parenthesis
> actually match!  ;)
>
> Coincidentally, "Visual SlickEdit" (now known as just "SlickEdit") was
> mentioned in Appendix A of the Java book.  I've been entering the code
> using it, and once I told it where the JDK was, it'll pop up methods and
> properties for me too.  It's not quite as thorough as the C# IDE, but I'm
> familiar with it, so it feels comfortable.  :)
>
Pete.

"Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:5223m8F1mdkagU1@mid.individual.net...
<snip>

So Pete how would you compare C# and Java? do you like C# better or is it
primarily the IDE?

"Charles Hottel" <chottel@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Fgpvh.18407$w91.16217@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:5223m8F1mdkagU1@mid.individual.net...
> <snip>
>
> So Pete how would you compare C# and Java? do you like C# better or is it
> primarily the IDE?
>
>
I prefer C#.

But it is silly to get emotional about programming languages...:-)

Java works well with Eclipse and this was the platform for the last
commercial team I managed. Eclipse is also a good IDE but, for me, the
DotNET framework is the clincher. You CAN use it from Java but C# is
designed to work with it and I have been very impressed with how easy it is
to do things in C#. Tasks that used to take days to research, code, debug,
and finally get working now get done in minutes. The online support is
phenomenal and I have used the video tutorials to good advantage. The
organizaion of the Help for C# is MUCH better than I have found with any
other langauage. You can find what you need in minutes and so far, I have
never been disappointed when looking for help.

I'm not sorry I spent time learning Java; it helped me immensely to
understand OO COBOL and the OO grounding you get in learning Java is
excellent.

As I get more into C# I find it quite fascinating. It seems to be a very
good compromise between Java and C++.

It has a fundamental simplicity and elegance which I find very appealing,
and it borrows the good points of Java anyway...

Visual Studio is simply excellent and I think it would enhance any language
you used it with. Fujitsu DotNET COBOL uses it, and I'm sure COBOL can be
written much faster and more accurately with its support. Once you start
using it, you realise that this is the kind of tool programmers SHOULD have
had years ago...

I am now looking forward to using C# to turn my desktop application into a
Web Service. The last time I built a Web Service was several years ago and
it involved using DCOM + and wrapping it in a SOAP layer for transport. It
took me several ws of full on hard work, reading about it (when I could
find anything about it, and trying to fill in the blanks when I couldn't)
and it was a painful process trying to test it. It finally worked, but it
was a full month of real pain.

I don't think it will be so bad this time...

Pete.

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 10:52:57 +1300, "Pete Dashwood"
<dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote:

>I prefer C#.
>
>But it is silly to get emotional about programming languages...:-)

Yep.   But despite all of the advantages C# has, I have an aversion to
languages controlled by Microsoft for its ends.   I suppose it is
better than one controlled by Apple for their ends (Apple demands that
we do everything its way), but I want to use a tool on all platforms.

Sun wanted to do this with Java, but because it isn't the 500 pound
gorilla in the marketplace, it found a more palatable alternative.

Thanks a lot Pete!

Top post no more below

"Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:5278lrF1n4o1bU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "Charles Hottel" <chottel@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:Fgpvh.18407$w91.16217@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net... 
> I prefer C#.
>
> But it is silly to get emotional about programming languages...:-)
>
> Java works well with Eclipse and this was the platform for the last
> commercial team I managed. Eclipse is also a good IDE but, for me, the
> DotNET framework is the clincher. You CAN use it from Java but C# is
> designed to work with it and I have been very impressed with how easy it
> is to do things in C#. Tasks that used to take days to research, code,
> debug, and finally get working now get done in minutes. The online support
> is phenomenal and I have used the video tutorials to good advantage. The
> organizaion of the Help for C# is MUCH better than I have found with any
> other langauage. You can find what you need in minutes and so far, I have
> never been disappointed when looking for help.
>
> I'm not sorry I spent time learning Java; it helped me immensely to
> understand OO COBOL and the OO grounding you get in learning Java is
> excellent.
>
> As I get more into C# I find it quite fascinating. It seems to be a very
> good compromise between Java and C++.
>
> It has a fundamental simplicity and elegance which I find very appealing,
> and it borrows the good points of Java anyway...
>
> Visual Studio is simply excellent and I think it would enhance any
> language you used it with. Fujitsu DotNET COBOL uses it, and I'm sure
> COBOL can be written much faster and more accurately with its support.
> Once you start using it, you realise that this is the kind of tool
> programmers SHOULD have had years ago...
>
> I am now looking forward to using C# to turn my desktop application into a
> Web Service. The last time I built a Web Service was several years ago and
> it involved using DCOM + and wrapping it in a SOAP layer for transport. It
> took me several ws of full on hard work, reading about it (when I could
> find anything about it, and trying to fill in the blanks when I couldn't)
> and it was a painful process trying to test it. It finally worked, but it
> was a full month of real pain.
>
> I don't think it will be so bad this time...
>
> Pete.
>
>