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| Author |
There needs to be a book!
|
|
| Robert Hicks 2007-08-31, 9:22 pm |
| No really... : )
Robert
| |
|
| >>>>> "Robert" == Robert Hicks <sigzero@gmail.com> writes:
Robert> No really... : )
OK, convince someone here to work at minimum wage for a year instead of
(or in addition to) whatever job they have. :)
Book writing is *not* profitable. Milking the book because you have a
training or consulting company *sometimes* might work, and we've done a good
job of that. But the reason I'm not cranking a book out every year is that I
really could make more money working at McDonalds than I would be writing
another book. :)
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
| |
| Jake Peavy 2007-09-02, 7:33 pm |
| On 9/1/07, Randal L. Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com> wrote:
>
>
> Robert> No really... : )
>
> OK, convince someone here to work at minimum wage for a year instead of
> (or in addition to) whatever job they have. :)
>
> Book writing is *not* profitable. Milking the book because you have a
> training or consulting company *sometimes* might work, and we've done a
> good
> job of that. But the reason I'm not cranking a book out every year is
> that I
> really could make more money working at McDonalds than I would be writing
> another book. :)
>
lol oh Randal, you're such a martyr.
--
-jp
When Chuck Norris was in middle school, his English teacher assigned an
essay: "What is Courage?" Chuck Norris received an "A+" for writing only the
words "Chuck Norris" and promptly turning in the paper.
| |
| Robert Hicks 2007-09-02, 7:33 pm |
| (Randal L. Schwartz) wrote:
>
> Robert> No really... : )
>
> OK, convince someone here to work at minimum wage for a year instead of
> (or in addition to) whatever job they have. :)
>
> Book writing is *not* profitable. Milking the book because you have a
> training or consulting company *sometimes* might work, and we've done a good
> job of that. But the reason I'm not cranking a book out every year is that I
> really could make more money working at McDonalds than I would be writing
> another book. :)
>
Yes I know...but it seems like  enough tech to do one for. I know
you have written/co-written a few too! : )
| |
| Rocco Caputo 2007-09-04, 7:30 pm |
| On Aug 31, 2007, at 10:32, Robert Hicks wrote:
> No really... : )
Who has time?
But there's some good news. One of my time sinks is the project to
rewrite POE's documentation. I've already rewritten POE.pm's POD,
and I'm working on Kernel.pm:
http://poe.svn.sourceforge.net/view...poe/lib/POE.pm?
view=markup
http://poe.svn.sourceforge.net/view.../POE/Kernel.pm?
view=markup
If people have feedback, questions, or suggestions, this is a great
opportunity to voice them. Ideally, people would insert them
directly into the POD. That would minimize my overhead and keep me
organized.
If anyone needs a commit bit to mark up the docs, please let me
know. You'll need to know subversion and have a (free? easily
obtained?) SourceForge account.
As for a book, there's already a small one's worth of documentation.
Maybe I can sell hardcopies of the Second Edition after it's done. :)
--
Rocco Caputo - rcaputo@pobox.com
| |
|
| Le Vendredi, 31 Ao=C3=BBt 2007 10:32:44 -0400,
Robert Hicks <sigzero@gmail.com> a =C3=A9crit :
> No really... : )
And it wouldn't be too late for it to be the best Perl book of 2007.
OK then, make it 2008.
It would give much coverage to POE but it has to be filled with very
good code snippets and examples, including ones with a GUI preferrably
GTK or Wx. By the wy, the Prima GUI toolkit - which is all Perl,
multiplatform and very easy to use - could be coming by in the near
future.
There's a Ruby on Rails book and this will add to the hype
surronding Ruby. Why not then a POE book and generate at least a
milligram of hype around it ? ;-) Maybe some people would discover
Perl by means of POE examples.
Cheers.
| |
| Nicholas Perez 2007-09-07, 7:23 pm |
| If you(we) really want a book, then maybe we need todo what the SVN
people do and have it online. That way we can get more people involved
in writing it (ie. the filter people discuss filter development, the
GUI people discuss GUI development, bill talking about his crazy all
the code lives in the DB, etc)
Financially it doesn't make a lot of sense for one person to write it,
so maybe we just need some sort of community effort.
On 9/7/07, lanas <lanas@securenet.net> wrote:
> Le Vendredi, 31 Ao=FBt 2007 10:32:44 -0400,
> Robert Hicks <sigzero@gmail.com> a =E9crit :
>
>
> And it wouldn't be too late for it to be the best Perl book of 2007.
>
> OK then, make it 2008.
>
> It would give much coverage to POE but it has to be filled with very
> good code snippets and examples, including ones with a GUI preferrably
> GTK or Wx. By the wy, the Prima GUI toolkit - which is all Perl,
> multiplatform and very easy to use - could be coming by in the near
> future.
>
> There's a Ruby on Rails book and this will add to the hype
> surronding Ruby. Why not then a POE book and generate at least a
> milligram of hype around it ? ;-) Maybe some people would discover
> Perl by means of POE examples.
>
> Cheers.
>
| |
| Rocco Caputo 2007-09-07, 7:23 pm |
| POE has had a "documentation" project for over four years. It's in =20
http://poe.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/poe/trunk/docs/ ... see =20
revision 1997 for some really old documentation.
If people are really interested in contributing, please let me know =20
how I can help. I can't actually write documentation. Until POE's =20
perldocs are done, they have priority on my documentation resources. =20=
Maybe I can resurrect some old guidelines and outlines to provide =20
some guidance, though.
--=20
Rocco Caputo - rcaputo@pobox.com
On Sep 7, 2007, at 14:06, Nicholas Perez wrote:
[color=darkred]
> If you(we) really want a book, then maybe we need todo what the SVN
> people do and have it online. That way we can get more people involved
> in writing it (ie. the filter people discuss filter development, the
> GUI people discuss GUI development, bill talking about his crazy all
> the code lives in the DB, etc)
>
> Financially it doesn't make a lot of sense for one person to write it,
> so maybe we just need some sort of community effort.
>
> On 9/7/07, lanas <lanas@securenet.net> wrote:
| |
| lanas 2007-09-07, 10:21 pm |
| Le Vendredi, 7 Septembre 2007 15:29:52 -0400,
Rocco Caputo <rcaputo@pobox.com> a =C3=A9crit :
> POE has had a "documentation" project for over four years. It's in =20
> http://poe.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/poe/trunk/docs/ ... see =20
> revision 1997 for some really old documentation.
> If people are really interested in contributing, please let me know =20
> how I can help. I can't actually write documentation. Until POE's =20
> perldocs are done, they have priority on my documentation
> resources. Maybe I can resurrect some old guidelines and outlines to
> provide some guidance, though.
Personally, how I see it is more like a real book than documentation.
For comparison's sake, it'd be like a book on Perl OO such has the one
by Damian instead of the Perl OO man pages. The POE Cookbook gives some
good examples, but it is not like a book with all the extraneous text
and context explanation unecessary bla bla and such things (even
funny bits) that makes a book a book. That makes it an interesting
read and ultimately inspiring for trying things out.
Documentation is very important, but a book, with its less formal
approach is great when it uses entertaining and interesting examples,
not only the basic stuff.
Cheers,
Al
| |
| Ty Roden 2007-09-08, 7:26 pm |
| I rarely chime in here (but read religiously). A full book format is
preferable - even if only in PDF to me. To inspire those of us don't
normally use POE to use it requires the informal style only a book can
offer. Reference material does nothing to help me see clear real world
examples of how things work in POE. I am one of the Perl coders out there
who have marveled at the things you are doing with POE, only to be
dumbfounded as to how to implement things in POE in my day to day coding
because I can't yet grasp it properly. Inevitably I end upmoving back to non
POE coding in Perl and keep watching this list hoping I will have the light
bulb turn on someday.
My 2 cents on the topic... I feel a book targeted at a mid level Perl
audience with "Here's how you would do this in Perl -> Now, here's the magic
POE can offer for you" sort of example method of discussion will really be a
boon to POE.
- Ty Roden
On 9/7/07, lanas <lanas@securenet.net> wrote:
>
> Le Vendredi, 7 Septembre 2007 15:29:52 -0400,
> Rocco Caputo <rcaputo@pobox.com> a écrit :
>
>
>
> Personally, how I see it is more like a real book than documentation.
> For comparison's sake, it'd be like a book on Perl OO such has the one
> by Damian instead of the Perl OO man pages. The POE Cookbook gives some
> good examples, but it is not like a book with all the extraneous text
> and context explanation unecessary bla bla and such things (even
> funny bits) that makes a book a book. That makes it an interesting
> read and ultimately inspiring for trying things out.
>
> Documentation is very important, but a book, with its less formal
> approach is great when it uses entertaining and interesting examples,
> not only the basic stuff.
>
> Cheers,
> Al
>
>
| |
|
| Le Samedi, 8 Septembre 2007 14:12:14 -0400,
"Ty Roden" <ty.roden@gmail.com> a =C3=A9crit :
If I may...
> I rarely chime in here (but read religiously). A full book format is
> preferable - even if only in PDF to me. To inspire those of us don't
> normally use POE to use it requires the informal style only a book can
> offer.=20
I would expect a book on POE to also cover topics that are interesting
to experienced developers already using POE. A couple of introductory
chapters for newbies and then inspirational material and applications.
500 pages would be OK ! :-) Aim for the thickness of the Template
Toolkit book :-)
> Reference material does nothing to help me see clear real world
> examples of how things work in POE.=20
To this I must disagree. I've learned POE that way (and through the
Cookbook) and have done two successful projects with it. But then I
only used a small fragment of POE, and did not code it like some
examples I've seen written by Rocco I think which uses a modularity
that I haven't touched that much.
So a book on POE would also be a book on how to code in POE, as it
would perhaps have been intended. Make it then three chapters for
newbies. ;-)
> My 2 cents on the topic... I feel a book targeted at a mid level Perl
> audience with "Here's how you would do this in Perl -> Now, here's
> the magic POE can offer for you" sort of example method of discussion
> will really be a boon to POE.
A 'pointer chapter' on "POE and Others" would also be nice. Recently
I've seen an example of the Catalyst framewrok working with POE, for
instance. "Extending POE" or using POE with other modules, with some
working examples would be nice.
Perhaps also a chapter on how to wrap some plain CPAN modules so that
they become POE friendly. Some time ago I was looking at a Log
Dispatch POE module that was quite a simpel wrap over the plain CPAN
Log Dispatch.
Makes me think... Anything planned with POE using threads ?
Cheers,
Al
| |
| Rocco Caputo 2007-09-08, 7:26 pm |
| Nevertheless, it's not going to happen until people commit to making =20
it so. What do you need from me to help make this a reality?
--=20
Rocco Caputo - rcaputo@pobox.com
On Sep 7, 2007, at 22:12, lanas wrote:
> Le Vendredi, 7 Septembre 2007 15:29:52 -0400,
> Rocco Caputo <rcaputo@pobox.com> a =E9crit :
>
>
>
> Personally, how I see it is more like a real book than documentation.
> For comparison's sake, it'd be like a book on Perl OO such has the one
> by Damian instead of the Perl OO man pages. The POE Cookbook gives =20=
> some
> good examples, but it is not like a book with all the extraneous text
> and context explanation unecessary bla bla and such things (even
> funny bits) that makes a book a book. That makes it an interesting
> read and ultimately inspiring for trying things out.
>
> Documentation is very important, but a book, with its less formal
> approach is great when it uses entertaining and interesting examples,
> not only the basic stuff.
>
> Cheers,
> Al
| |
| Matt Sickler 2007-09-08, 7:26 pm |
| I like the idea of having a wiki / online book like what the
subversion project does. POE changes way too fast for a book to keep
up. The wiki is already in place, it just needs more lovin', maybe
even HTML versions of the POD put up too.
On 9/8/07, Rocco Caputo <rcaputo@pobox.com> wrote:
> Nevertheless, it's not going to happen until people commit to making
> it so. What do you need from me to help make this a reality?
>
> --
> Rocco Caputo - rcaputo@pobox.com
>
>
> On Sep 7, 2007, at 22:12, lanas wrote:
>
>
>
>
| |
| Rocco Caputo 2007-09-08, 7:26 pm |
| The wiki has some documentation and open, collaborative book projects =20=
already. Some of that lovin' of which you speak might start out by =20
combining these dead efforts into something that can be used moving =20
forward.
If people like the wiki idea, poe.perl.org is open for business. If =20
a repository is better, I can set aside namespace in POE's or open a =20
new one on thirdlobe.com. Whatever helps the most.
Here are some links to past book and documentation efforts:
http://poe.perl.org/?Programming_poe
http://poe.perl.org/?Poe_documentation/rewrite_2003
http://poe.perl.org/?Poe_documentat...entation_design
http://poe.perl.org/?Poe_book_outline
http://poe.perl.org/?POE_Documentation/Style
http://poe.perl.org/?POE_Documentation/Beginners_Guide
--=20
Rocco Caputo - rcaputo@pobox.com
On Sep 8, 2007, at 16:47, Matt Sickler wrote:
[color=darkred]
> I like the idea of having a wiki / online book like what the
> subversion project does. POE changes way too fast for a book to keep
> up. The wiki is already in place, it just needs more lovin', maybe
> even HTML versions of the POD put up too.
>
> On 9/8/07, Rocco Caputo <rcaputo@pobox.com> wrote:
| |
|
| >>>>> "Nicholas" == "Nicholas Perez" <nicholasrperez@gmail.com> writes:
Nicholas> If you(we) really want a book, then maybe we need todo what the SVN
Nicholas> people do and have it online. That way we can get more people
Nicholas> involved in writing it (ie. the filter people discuss filter
Nicholas> development, the GUI people discuss GUI development, bill talking
Nicholas> about his crazy all the code lives in the DB, etc)
If you think there are things to be said about POE that aren't already being
said, please start contributing those things to the wiki. Or if the wiki
isn't saying it well enough, *fix* the wiki.
Between the relatively decent POD that comes with POE (thanks rocco!) and the
wiki, I'm not sure what's missing. But if it *is* missing, put it in the wiki
first, even if just as a blank page with a big flashing question mark.
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
| |
|
| >>>>> "Rocco" == Rocco Caputo <rcaputo@pobox.com> writes:
Rocco> The wiki has some documentation and open, collaborative book projects
Rocco> already. Some of that lovin' of which you speak might start out by
Rocco> combining these dead efforts into something that can be used moving
Rocco> forward.
Heh. Great minds think alike. Stupid minds that haven't had enough caffiene
don't read all the messages in the list before posting their own rant. :)
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
| |
|
| Le Samedi, 8 Septembre 2007 17:46:42 -0400,
Rocco Caputo <rcaputo@pobox.com> a =C3=A9crit :
Hi,
> The wiki has some documentation and open, collaborative book
> projects already. Some of that lovin' of which you speak might start
> out by combining these dead efforts into something that can be used
> moving forward.
I for one am not in a position to write about POE and tell people how
to use it. I did two successful projects with it but I do not think
frankly that my coding has anything worthwhile to told others. I get
things done in a way that's pleasant to me and enables me to maintain
the stuff and update it easily but I'm obviously no Damian Conway or
any other that possess a view on programming, and programming with
Perl. Let alone POE. I wouldn't like to tell people at large (i.e.
exceeding the context of a company) how to do things with Perl or POE.
The current docs, Cookbook, examples, are much better at that than me.
This being said, a nice book on POE that gives insigths into using POE,
structuring programs with POE and offering a good amount of
inspirational material that's not found in the current docs (or the
ones outlines below) would be nice.
Cheers.
> http://poe.perl.org/?Programming_poe
> http://poe.perl.org/?Poe_documentation/rewrite_2003
> http://poe.perl.org/?Poe_documentat...entation_design
> http://poe.perl.org/?Poe_book_outline
> http://poe.perl.org/?POE_Documentation/Style
> http://poe.perl.org/?POE_Documentation/Beginners_Guide
=20
| |
| Rocco Caputo 2007-09-09, 7:27 pm |
| Dear lanas, et al:
Thank you for your interest in a POE book (or book-like =20
documentation). Currently nobody wants this project to succeed, so =20
it remains dead for the foreseeable future. I will continue to =20
monitor the situation and inform this mailing list when its status =20
changes.
Meanwhile I am continuing in my endeavor to rewrite POE's perldoc. =20
The first draft of POE.pm is done, and POE::Kernel is in progress. =20
You're invited to monitor my progress in subversion. Should they =20
materialize, your suggestions and feedback will greatly contribute to =20=
the quality of the end product.
Please contact me if you would like to be more directly involved in =20
either project. If there are technical hurdles preventing you from =20
contributing, please let me know. I will attempt to work with you to =20=
lower those barriers.
Yours sincerely:
--=20
Rocco Caputo - rcaputo@pobox.com
On Sep 9, 2007, at 16:58, lanas wrote:
[color=darkred]
> Le Samedi, 8 Septembre 2007 17:46:42 -0400,
> Rocco Caputo <rcaputo@pobox.com> a =E9crit :
>
> Hi,
>
>
> I for one am not in a position to write about POE and tell people how
> to use it. I did two successful projects with it but I do not think
> frankly that my coding has anything worthwhile to told others. I get
> things done in a way that's pleasant to me and enables me to maintain
> the stuff and update it easily but I'm obviously no Damian Conway or
> any other that possess a view on programming, and programming with
> Perl. Let alone POE. I wouldn't like to tell people at large (i.e.
> exceeding the context of a company) how to do things with Perl or POE.
>
> The current docs, Cookbook, examples, are much better at that than me.
>
> This being said, a nice book on POE that gives insigths into using =20
> POE,
> structuring programs with POE and offering a good amount of
> inspirational material that's not found in the current docs (or the
> ones outlines below) would be nice.
>
> Cheers.
>
| |
|
| >>>>> "lanas" == lanas <lanas@securenet.net> writes:
lanas> This being said, a nice book on POE that gives insigths into using POE,
lanas> structuring programs with POE and offering a good amount of
lanas> inspirational material that's not found in the current docs (or the
lanas> ones outlines below) would be nice.
You left out the pony.
Seriously, read the rest of the thread. To summarize (a) there's no money in
books (b) Rocco is already beefing up the perldocs (c) Rocco will hand out
commit bits for said docs if you ask nicely (d) the wiki already has a pile of
stuff (e) anyone can add *more* to the wiki.
Not sure what part of that you don't understand. There's no money to pay for
more docs, and there's plenty of ways volunteers can already add more docs,
and there's already a lot of docs. :)
There's also this mailing list, and the IRC channel, both of which are
monitored by Smarter People than Me, so your individual questions can be
answered far better than any book will do. And with a bit of exploration, you
can see how POE has been used a few dozen different ways in the CPAN.
Now, what else did you want for free?
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
| |
| brian d foy 2007-09-10, 4:43 am |
| In article <20070909165809.57358388@mistral.stie>, lanas
<lanas@securenet.net> wrote:
> I for one am not in a position to write about POE and tell people how
> to use it. I did two successful projects with it but I do not think
> frankly that my coding has anything worthwhile to told others.
That's the position that most book authors start in. The author usually
learns more about the topic than the reader. You don't have to know
everything when you start; you just need the motivation and discipline
to spend the next 18 months figuring out everything the reader needs to
know and how to explain it to them. :)
But, as Randal says, a POE book would be a work of charity and a gift
to the Perl community. It's not a book that's going to make any money.
It has nothing to do with the merit of the content; it simply isn't
going to interest enough people. Learning Perl makes me a little money
as an O'Reilly bestseller, Intermediate Perl does about 1/10th of that,
and I'm not expecting any money from Mastering Perl. Those are all
general interest books. A niche book does orders of magnitude worse in
sales.
Having said that, The Perl Review hasn't published a POE article yet,
and I'd be glad to do that if someone wanted to write an introduction
article, and possibly more advanced articles later. :)
| |
| Robert Hicks 2007-09-11, 8:23 am |
| brian d foy wrote:
<snip>
>
> Having said that, The Perl Review hasn't published a POE article yet,
> and I'd be glad to do that if someone wanted to write an introduction
> article, and possibly more advanced articles later. :)
That is a really good start. A series of (hopefully) articles about POE
would be nice.
Robert
| |
|
| Le Dimanche, 09 Septembre 2007 19:24:20 -0700,
merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) a =C3=A9crit :
> Now, what else did you want for free?
But I want to _buy_ the book ! ;-)
> Seriously, read the rest of the thread. To summarize (a) there's no
> money in books (b) Rocco is already beefing up the perldocs (c) Rocco
> will hand out commit bits for said docs if you ask nicely (d) the
> wiki already has a pile of stuff (e) anyone can add *more* to the
> wiki.
>=20
> Not sure what part of that you don't understand. =20
The part about the book.
The current sources for documentation are good. I used them to make
two projects with POE.
By 'book' I do not mean for instance something like 'Perl in a
Nutshell'. I do not mean a printout of the OO Perl documentation. I
rather mean a real book, like Damian's 'Object-Oriented Perl' or one of
the 'Advanced Perl Programming'. Or even 'Higher Order Perl'. You
know, not a technical reference, but an actual book.
Anyways, I must reiterate that the current available sources of
documentation and examples for POE are good.
But are not comparable to a book.
Cheers,
Al
| |
| Nicholas Perez 2007-09-11, 7:30 pm |
| Patches welcome.
On 9/11/07, lanas <lanas@securenet.net> wrote:
> Le Dimanche, 09 Septembre 2007 19:24:20 -0700,
> merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) a =E9crit :
>
>
> But I want to _buy_ the book ! ;-)
>
>
> The part about the book.
>
> The current sources for documentation are good. I used them to make
> two projects with POE.
>
> By 'book' I do not mean for instance something like 'Perl in a
> Nutshell'. I do not mean a printout of the OO Perl documentation. I
> rather mean a real book, like Damian's 'Object-Oriented Perl' or one of
> the 'Advanced Perl Programming'. Or even 'Higher Order Perl'. You
> know, not a technical reference, but an actual book.
>
> Anyways, I must reiterate that the current available sources of
> documentation and examples for POE are good.
>
> But are not comparable to a book.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Al
>
| |
|
| Le Dimanche, 09 Septembre 2007 21:46:20 -0500,
brian d foy <brian.d.foy@gmail.com> a =C3=A9crit :
=20[color=darkred]
> That's the position that most book authors start in. The author
> usually learns more about the topic than the reader. You don't have
> to know everything when you start; you just need the motivation and
> discipline to spend the next 18 months figuring out everything the
> reader needs to know and how to explain it to them. :)
Yep. And I thought a book was made from current knowledge being
organized in the form of a book. Well, I guess many books wouldn't get
written if relying on current knowledge was the rule.
> But, as Randal says, a POE book would be a work of charity and a gift
> to the Perl community. It's not a book that's going to make any money.
=46rom your description, many, many software books shouldn't bring much
money to the authors. Like the 10 books or so on Ruby on Rails. I'm
curious, and this could be going OT, but is there a possibility that
these books on Rails generates more money than any book about Perl
simply because Ruby is seemingly more popular ?
Thanks for the comment. I nevertheless feel too much that I have
nothing examplar to share at large for the coding community. I
presently have too much this impression that as soon as I demonstrate
something, someone will come up, with reason undoubtly, to say that's
not the best way of doing this, so on so forth.
> Having said that, The Perl Review hasn't published a POE article yet,
> and I'd be glad to do that if someone wanted to write an introduction
> article, and possibly more advanced articles later. :)
Makes me think, I should subscribe ! ;-)
Cheers,
Al
| |
| Kevin Scaldeferri 2007-09-11, 7:30 pm |
|
On Sep 11, 2007, at 9:47 AM, lanas wrote:
>
>
> From your description, many, many software books shouldn't bring much
> money to the authors. Like the 10 books or so on Ruby on Rails. I'm
> curious, and this could be going OT, but is there a possibility that
> these books on Rails generates more money than any book about Perl
> simply because Ruby is seemingly more popular ?
A good friend of mine just wrote one of those books, so I'll ask him
if he's made any money of it in a few months. But, I can tell you
for sure that his motivation for writing the book was not to make
money. Rather it was to gain credibility in the community.
-kevin
| |
|
| >>>>> "lanas" == lanas <lanas@securenet.net> writes:
lanas> But are not comparable to a book.
And you and 400 people will buy that book. Seriously, that's all.
And that's not enough for people to write that book. Seriously.
Now, other than a pony, what do you want here?
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
| |
|
| >>>>> "lanas" == lanas <lanas@securenet.net> writes:
lanas> From your description, many, many software books shouldn't bring much
lanas> money to the authors. Like the 10 books or so on Ruby on Rails. I'm
lanas> curious, and this could be going OT, but is there a possibility that
lanas> these books on Rails generates more money than any book about Perl
lanas> simply because Ruby is seemingly more popular ?
None of them will generate money. I'd bet the rent on it. These
books are published as credentials, not as money makers.
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
| |
| Jeff Lowrey 2007-09-11, 7:30 pm |
| At 04:22 PM 9/11/2007, you wrote:
>None of them will generate money. I'd bet the rent on it. These
>books are published as credentials, not as money makers.
One of the reasons for this is because all technology books are
obsolete by the time they hit the shelves.
I *wouldn't* buy the book, unless I personally knew the author. Even
if I was going to make extensive and frequent use of the information
contained therein. Books are heavy, and don't fit in my suitcase
very well. Never underestimate the bandwidth of a USB flashdrive
full of PDFs.
And I don't use POE often enough to have any tuits to contribute to the wiki.
Ianas/Al - it really seems you're the only one with enough interest
in seeing a book, that you're likely the only person on the planet
who can ever make it happen - for whatever reason you choose to do
so. If all you're looking for is something nifty to flip through on
those cold nights when you're sweating your current code and dreaming
of a new source of inspiration... then now's the time to get started
planning it. By the time you're done, you'll have written code that
demonstrates all the inspiration you're hoping to be given from on
high. And have the perspiration to show for it.
If you're only looking for a way to evangelize POE in the Perl
community - maybe you should start small and write up the programs
you've done with POE for TPJ. Or at least get started on the
process, and find out what TPJ wants in the way of an article on POE,
and then add to your POE knowledge until you can produce that.
There aren't really a lot of experts on POE out there, it seems. And
the ones that there are, are way too busy to write books - or don't
have a stake in the outcome like you do. This means that there's
plenty of room on the ground floor for more experts on POE.
-Jeff Lowrey
| |
| Steven 2007-09-12, 4:35 am |
| lanas wrote:
>
Simon Cozens rewrite of Advanced Perl Programming does have a POE
chapter - that's where I read about POE first.
I mainly read tech books via my on-line Safari Bookshelf, to avoid
filling up my home with obselete references. (Either obselete because
the technology changed, or because my priorities changed!)
| |
| Mike Schilli 2007-09-12, 4:35 am |
| On Wed, 12 Sep 2007, Steven wrote:
> Simon Cozens rewrite of Advanced Perl Programming does have a POE
> chapter - that's where I read about POE first.
Seconded, Simon Cozens' book provides a nice introduction to POE. (As
a side note, this book also contains one of the few usable introductions
to Unicode.)
Especially POE has a number of unusual concepts (why is a wheel called
a wheel again?) which need thorough explanations and probably even nice
drawings for the novice to understand what the hell is going on.
What a good book generally provides, as opposed to a set of wikis, is
that a person with a vision takes the reader by the hand and leads them
onto path where understanding basic concepts just falls in place,
anticipating questions as they come.
This requires talent. Very few people can do it properly.
-- Mike
Mike Schilli
m@perlmeister.com
| |
| George Nistorica 2007-09-12, 8:23 am |
| Mike Schilli wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Sep 2007, Steven wrote:
> Especially POE has a number of unusual concepts (why is a wheel called
> a wheel again?) which need thorough explanations and probably even nice
> drawings for the novice to understand what the hell is going on.
I guess because you shouldn't re-invent the wheel, use the existing one ...
I think it's documented here:
http://poe.perl.org/?POE_Documentation/Style_Concepts
" ... so it was decided to make modular units out of them. Wheels were
invented, replacing the ones being re-created with every program."
>
> -- Mike
>
> Mike Schilli
> m@perlmeister.com
>
| |
|
| Le Mardi, 11 Septembre 2007 15:19:59 -0700,
merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) a =C3=A9crit :
>=20
> lanas> But are not comparable to a book.
>=20
> And you and 400 people will buy that book. Seriously, that's all.
> And that's not enough for people to write that book. Seriously.
>=20
> Now, other than a pony, what do you want here?
I'm not familiar with that 'pony' expression. I'd sure take a pony,
they are good horses, and good for children. If it's free, OK. If
not, then it's way more expensive than a book, and despite its name,
cannot be obtainable on Safari ;-)
Cheers,
Al
| |
|
| Le Mercredi, 12 Septembre 2007 02:14:41 -0700 (PDT),
Mike Schilli <m@perlmeister.com> a =C3=A9crit :
> What a good book generally provides, as opposed to a set of wikis, is
> that a person with a vision takes the reader by the hand and leads
> them onto path where understanding basic concepts just falls in place,
> anticipating questions as they come. This requires talent. Very few
> people can do it properly.
Sometimes, concise articles in a magazine can carry a good deal of
inspiration. Like the one you wrote using POE and Gaim (if I'm not
mistaken - it is some time ago). Your articles are concise and deliver
in a small space without much talk. This is fitting for a periodic
magazine column. =20
Maybe you can come up with other inspiring uses of POE ;-)
On the other hand a good book can be a source of continuous inspiration
and I do not agree that these books are obsolete by the time they reach
the shelves. I'm thinking of 'Perl Best Pratices' and 'Perl Hacks' for
instance. I wonder how much money these have generated. Not much, I
presume.
Tsch=C3=BCss,
Al
| |
| Michael Collins 2007-09-12, 10:19 pm |
|
>=20
> Seconded, Simon Cozens' book provides a nice introduction to POE. (As
> a side note, this book also contains one of the few usable
introductions
> to Unicode.)
Agreed. It is a nice intro to help you get your feet wet.
> What a good book generally provides, as opposed to a set of wikis, is
> that a person with a vision takes the reader by the hand and leads
them
> onto path where understanding basic concepts just falls in place,
> anticipating questions as they come.
>=20
> This requires talent. Very few people can do it properly.
Indeed it does. That's why TPR is so valuable. Investing dozens of man
hours into writing an article is less risky than investing thousands of
man hours into writing a book, yet the readers of both are still
benefited. =20
Maybe there should an informal RFC from the POE user base: what
topic(s) would you most like to see in a TPR article? Perhaps there is
a potential author out there (who doesn't know that he is a potential
author) who has real-world experience with a popular POE subject. =20
Just a thought...
-MC
| |
| Mike Schilli 2007-09-13, 4:31 am |
| On Wed, 12 Sep 2007, lanas wrote:
> Sometimes, concise articles in a magazine can carry a good deal of
> inspiration. Like the one you wrote using POE and Gaim (if I'm not
> mistaken - it is some time ago). Your articles are concise and
> deliver in a small space without much talk. This is fitting for
> a periodic magazine column.
Thanks for the kind words, I'm glad you liked the articles :). Two of
them were POE-related, one 11/2005 on Gaim and POE:
http://www.linux-magazine.com/issue...Gaim_Plugin.pdf
and another one 05/2004 on Gtk and POE:
http://www.linux-magazine.com/issue...en_Scrapers.pdf
> Maybe you can come up with other inspiring uses of POE ;-)
Sure will :).
> On the other hand a good book can be a source of continuous
> inspiration and I do not agree that these books are obsolete by the
> time they reach the shelves. I'm thinking of 'Perl Best Pratices' and
> 'Perl Hacks' for instance. I wonder how much money these have
> generated. Not much, I presume.
It's all about the number of copies a book can sell ... I doubt that
either of these books have made much money for the publisher or the
authors. I guess they sold 2,000 copies each (max!), so if the author
gets a buck or two per copy, you do the math if that's worth your time
for spending half a year on writing them.
On the other hand, publishers like O'Reilly aren't charitable
organisations. Believe it or not, they're in there for the money.
They make it by the one or two out of 100 books that are bestsellers
and sell 500,000 copies over several years.
-- Mike
Mike Schilli
m@perlmeister.com
| |
| Ty Roden 2007-09-13, 7:25 pm |
| Excellent articles indeed. This is exactly the sort of thing the POE
community needs more of. I'm sorry I missed these articles initially, but
glad you have posted them again here. The write up and breakdown of each
section of code really helps in the GTK example. Excellent reading.
On 9/13/07, Mike Schilli <m@perlmeister.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 12 Sep 2007, lanas wrote:
>
>
> Thanks for the kind words, I'm glad you liked the articles :). Two of
> them were POE-related, one 11/2005 on Gaim and POE:
>
> http://www.linux-magazine.com/issue...Gaim_Plugin.pdf
>
> and another one 05/2004 on Gtk and POE:
>
> http://www.linux-magazine.com/issue...en_Scrapers.pdf
>
>
> Sure will :).
>
>
> It's all about the number of copies a book can sell ... I doubt that
> either of these books have made much money for the publisher or the
> authors. I guess they sold 2,000 copies each (max!), so if the author
> gets a buck or two per copy, you do the math if that's worth your time
> for spending half a year on writing them.
>
> On the other hand, publishers like O'Reilly aren't charitable
> organisations. Believe it or not, they're in there for the money.
>
> They make it by the one or two out of 100 books that are bestsellers
> and sell 500,000 copies over several years.
>
> -- Mike
>
> Mike Schilli
> m@perlmeister.com
>
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