Perl 6 Compiler - What the heck is... wrong with Parrot development?

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What the heck is... wrong with Parrot development?

anonymous coward

2005-06-06, 4:04 pm

It's a funny old world...
wrote Dan Sugalski on June 04, 2005 in his Squawks of the Parrot blog.
Go and see: <http://www.sidhe.org/~dan/blog/archives/000400.html>.

Hence the subject.

What the heck is wrong with Parrot development?

anonymous coward
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Larry Wall

2005-06-06, 9:00 pm

On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 04:31:01PM +0200, anonymous coward wrote:
: It's a funny old world...
: wrote Dan Sugalski on June 04, 2005 in his Squawks of the Parrot blog.
: Go and see: <http://www.sidhe.org/~dan/blog/archives/000400.html>.
:
: Hence the subject.
:
: What the heck is wrong with Parrot development?

I can't comment on aspects I am in all likelihood blind to, but I'll
be glad to point out that one of the most *irritating* problems
is people who snipe from the sidelines without having earned the
right to do so by contributing. Dan has earned the right to carp,
and deserves our respect for refusing to vent (much) in public, but
anonymous cowards are generally just interested in making trouble
without being held accountable. Feel free to prove otherwise.

Larry

Fagyal Csongor

2005-06-06, 9:00 pm

Larry,

>On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 04:31:01PM +0200, anonymous coward wrote:
>: It's a funny old world...
>: wrote Dan Sugalski on June 04, 2005 in his Squawks of the Parrot blog.
>: Go and see: <http://www.sidhe.org/~dan/blog/archives/000400.html>.
>:
>: Hence the subject.
>:
>: What the heck is wrong with Parrot development?
>
>I can't comment on aspects I am in all likelihood blind to, but I'll
>be glad to point out that one of the most *irritating* problems
>is people who snipe from the sidelines without having earned the
>right to do so by contributing. Dan has earned the right to carp,
>and deserves our respect for refusing to vent (much) in public, but
>anonymous cowards are generally just interested in making trouble
>without being held accountable. Feel free to prove otherwise.
>
>
With all respect, I think this is a very important thing which needs
attention, and I hope that you will help us to clarify the situation. I
am pretty sure Dan did not leave because he had a bad day - we know he
is a much more serious person. I also think that the community does not
ask you to tell us what is happening - your mind is worth more than that
to us :-) However, it is vital to know if there were issues that should
worry us. I hope someone will come forth and talk about these underlying
problems most of us do not know about - and then your role, if you
accepted it, could be to tell us if that brave person is authentic or not.

Of course it would be best if this person were Dan himself, but I (hope
that I) understand his motives, so if he choses not to tell, let it be
that way, he has indeed earned the right do do so. I know noone asked
*my* opinion, and obviously I have no right to make any waves here, but
what I can say is if there were personal problems that led to this
parting - I mean the "anonymous cowards" you mentioned -, while that is
*very-very* bad and

, it still sounds better to me than, say, knowing
that Parrot development might fall into the hands of those who will
scr*w it up. Apart from the tremendous amount of work and enthusiasm
that went into creating Perl6/Pugs/Parrot, business decisions will be
(if not are being) made on the (predicted) success of Perl6.

I have many things to worry about - it goes with working in IT. Please
someone let me know if there is one more unpredictable thing in the
future or not :-)

- Fagzal

Sam Vilain

2005-06-07, 3:59 am

Fagyal Csongor wrote:
> With all respect, I think this is a very important thing which needs
> attention, and I hope that you will help us to clarify the situation. I
> am pretty sure Dan did not leave because he had a bad day - we know he

Dan's position was very stressful, he had people from all sides trying to
tear him down, even though many were also propping him up and he has a
great level of skill.

However, to altercate on the hows and whys of his action is premature; I
suggest a moratorium on such debate for at least as long as he was the
project leader, for correct perspective.

Please honour his decision to bow out gracefully without turning it into
a childish battle of egos.

In the meantime let us celebrate 5 years of Dan Sugalski's contribution
to the Parrot and Perl 6 project.

Three cheers for Dan!

Sam.

Uri Guttman

2005-06-07, 3:59 am

>>>>> "SV" == Sam Vilain <sam@vilain.net> writes:

SV> Please honour his decision to bow out gracefully without turning it into
SV> a childish battle of egos.

SV> In the meantime let us celebrate 5 years of Dan Sugalski's contribution
SV> to the Parrot and Perl 6 project.

SV> Three cheers for Dan!

hear! hear!!

uri

--
Uri Guttman ------ uri@stemsystems.com -------- http://www.stemsystems.com
--Perl Consulting, Stem Development, Systems Architecture, Design and Coding-
Search or Offer Perl Jobs ---------------------------- http://jobs.perl.org

Edward Peschko

2005-06-07, 3:59 am

On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 07:53:03PM -0400, Uri Guttman wrote:
>
>
> SV> Please honour his decision to bow out gracefully without turning it into
> SV> a childish battle of egos.
>
> SV> In the meantime let us celebrate 5 years of Dan Sugalski's contribution
> SV> to the Parrot and Perl 6 project.
>
> SV> Three cheers for Dan!
>
> hear! hear!!

I'll add a cheer as well.... With parrot and pugs, I think that this whole perl6
might actually get off the ground, of which no small part is due to Dan..

But it still strikes me as odd. I saw some tension in the perl6 mailing lists, but
nothing that would have suggested that *this* would happen.

And I look at other projects which *really* have tension (and yes, I will name
names, go visit cygwin or glibc if you really want a pound of flesh torn from
your backside).

In fact, at face value, the perl6 mailing lists seemed freshly absent from strife.
They are IMO ten times more pleasant to read compared to perl5-porters. So I'm
still left curious as to why this is happening...

I guess I'll find out in due course, but the curiousity is killing me..

Ed

Nicholas Clark

2005-06-07, 9:04 am

On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 05:07:42PM -0700, Edward Peschko wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 07:53:03PM -0400, Uri Guttman wrote:

Do we need to stop at 3?
[color=darkred]
> In fact, at face value, the perl6 mailing lists seemed freshly absent from strife.
> They are IMO ten times more pleasant to read compared to perl5-porters. So I'm
> still left curious as to why this is happening...

This is an average for perl5-porters over its entire existence?
I don't think that it's a reputation it deserves any more. It's very a
very uneventful list now.

Nicholas Clark

Dan Sugalski

2005-06-07, 4:07 pm

I didn't realize I was still on this list (which I'm going to take
care of in a bit) but since I'm seeing this...

At 5:07 PM -0700 6/6/05, Edward Peschko wrote:
>But it still strikes me as odd. I saw some tension in the perl6
>mailing lists, but
>nothing that would have suggested that *this* would happen.

There was a *lot* of tension. It didn't go anywhere because I always
insisted that the internals list stay professional and polite, and
that applied to me as well. (And when I didn't, well... I've a
collection of mail taking me to task about it)

No, things weren't particularly happy in parrot land. And no, you
generally didn't see it. And no, it has nothing to do with Larry. And
no, I'm not going to go into it here -- this isn't the place for it.
--
Dan

--------------------------------------it's like this-------------------
Dan Sugalski even samurai
dan@sidhe.org have teddy bears and even
teddy bears get drunk

Edward Peschko

2005-06-07, 4:07 pm

On Tue, Jun 07, 2005 at 11:09:18AM +0100, Nicholas Clark wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 05:07:42PM -0700, Edward Peschko wrote:
>
>
> Do we need to stop at 3?
>
>
> This is an average for perl5-porters over its entire existence?
> I don't think that it's a reputation it deserves any more. It's very a
> very uneventful list now.

No, I should have clarified.

It was before perl6, when perl5 was being stretched apart and people were begging
to add features that couldn't be accommodated. The main reason, IMO for the
tension on perl5 was related to engineering and technical reasons, the feeling
that perl5 wasn't going places and there was no way to remedy the situation;
sort of like steam building in a pot that's closed on top of a stove..

Now that perl6 is going, IMO things are much smoother now..

Ed

Nicholas Clark

2005-06-07, 4:07 pm

On Tue, Jun 07, 2005 at 10:26:28AM -0700, Edward Peschko wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 07, 2005 at 11:09:18AM +0100, Nicholas Clark wrote:

>
> No, I should have clarified.
>
> It was before perl6, when perl5 was being stretched apart and people were begging
> to add features that couldn't be accommodated. The main reason, IMO for the
> tension on perl5 was related to engineering and technical reasons, the feeling
> that perl5 wasn't going places and there was no way to remedy the situation;
> sort of like steam building in a pot that's closed on top of a stove..
>
> Now that perl6 is going, IMO things are much smoother now..

Thanks for clarifying. Your description agrees completely with how I remember
things.

Nicholas Clark

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