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Borland no longer part of Trolltech
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| Bill Smith 2005-05-25, 8:59 pm |
| I saw an article today that Borland no longer owns any part of Troll
Tech. This was an integral part of Kylix. Is this further evidence
Kylix is abandones?
| |
| Rob McDonell 2005-05-26, 4:03 pm |
| Bill Smith wrote:
> I saw an article today that Borland no longer owns any part of Troll
> Tech. This was an integral part of Kylix. Is this further evidence
> Kylix is abandones?
Perhaps evidence that CLX is abandoned, rather than Kylix as such.
| |
|
| They are going to wxWindows...
"Rob McDonell" <arkangles@arkangles.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:4295b87d$1@newsgroups.borland.com...
> Bill Smith wrote:
>
> Perhaps evidence that CLX is abandoned, rather than Kylix as such.
| |
| Andreas Hausladen 2005-05-26, 4:03 pm |
| Max wrote:
> They are going to wxWindows...
What is your source?
--
Regards,
Andreas Hausladen
| |
| Simon Kissel 2005-05-26, 4:03 pm |
| > Max wrote:
>=20
>=20
> What is your source?
His imagination.
Simon
| |
| Harry Barclay 2005-05-26, 4:03 pm |
| Simon Kissel wrote:
>
> His imagination.
>
> Simon
Unfortunately our imaginations are all we have to go on. It sure would
be nice to hear some official word from Borland about the future
direction of Kylix.
| |
| oro06@sf.net 2005-05-26, 4:03 pm |
| delphi2006 will include C++ personality, perhaps a WXCL could start ?
as VCL alternative...
Max a écrit :
> They are going to wxWindows...
>
> "Rob McDonell" <arkangles@arkangles.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:4295b87d$1@newsgroups.borland.com...
>
>
>
>
| |
| Simon Kissel 2005-05-26, 4:03 pm |
| > Simon Kissel wrote:
>=20
>=20
> Unfortunately our imaginations are all we have to go on. It sure would =
> be nice to hear some official word from Borland about the future=20
> direction of Kylix.
Ok, here is some guidance:
Borland does not seem to have decided about Kylix' future yet. In this
recent poll they've asked if there would be interest in a new version:
http://infopoll.net/live/surveys/s27784.htm
Earlier Borland has said they are looking for some way to update Kylix
to make it compatible to recent distros.=20
CLX isn't included in Delphi 2005 anymore. The windows part of CLX can
be considered dead. It was of no use anyway, nobody wants to deploy=20
windows applications that depend on QT.
The FreeCLX project is planning to make CLX more compatible to the
Win32 VCL. So a possible future path is to have cross-platform =
applications
that use VCL on win32, and an updated CLX, probably based on QT3/4 on
Linux.
Indepedent from Borland there also is a lot of stuff going on regarding=20
Kylix' future. While there still are a lot of things that are unknown, =
one
thing is for sure now: The future for Kylix-build applications is =
secured,
no matter if Borland decides to continue the product or not.
Simon
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| Bob Goddard 2005-05-26, 4:03 pm |
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Simon Kissel wrote:
>
> Ok, here is some guidance:
>
> Borland does not seem to have decided about Kylix' future yet. In this
> recent poll they've asked if there would be interest in a new version:
> http://infopoll.net/live/surveys/s27784.htm
Yes, very bright. Asking the Windows crowd about whether they want a
new version of Kylix!
> Earlier Borland has said they are looking for some way to update Kylix
> to make it compatible to recent distros.
It's been a few months since anything was talk about and even that
smacked of unofficial. It seemed to be more a few individuals within
Borland trying to harness the OSS community.
[...]
> Indepedent from Borland there also is a lot of stuff going on
> regarding Kylix' future. While there still are a lot of things that
> are unknown, one thing is for sure now: The future for Kylix-build
> applications is secured, no matter if Borland decides to continue the
> product or not.
Oh come on Simon. NOTHING about Kylix is secured.
B
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| Harry Barclay 2005-05-26, 9:02 pm |
| In-Reply-To: <42960143@newsgroups.borland.com>
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Simon Kissel wrote:
>
> Borland does not seem to have decided about Kylix' future yet. In this
> recent poll they've asked if there would be interest in a new version:
> http://infopoll.net/live/surveys/s27784.htm
I did participate in that survey, and I hope enough people indicated an
interest in Kylix to keep Borland interested.
>
> Earlier Borland has said they are looking for some way to update Kylix
> to make it compatible to recent distros.
>
That would certainly be welcome, but it is not the only change that
needs to be made.
> CLX isn't included in Delphi 2005 anymore. The windows part of CLX can
> be considered dead. It was of no use anyway, nobody wants to deploy
> windows applications that depend on QT.
>
> The FreeCLX project is planning to make CLX more compatible to the
> Win32 VCL. So a possible future path is to have cross-platform applications
> that use VCL on win32, and an updated CLX, probably based on QT3/4 on
> Linux.
>
This is indeed the crux of the problem. Without that compatibility
between the VCL and whatever Borland chooses to use for the UI in Kylix,
it's going nowhere. I appreciate the efforts of those involved in the
FreeCLX project, and I know you have done a tremendous amount of work
that has helped keep Kylix alive, but for it to matter in the long run
Borland is going to have to step up.
> Indepedent from Borland there also is a lot of stuff going on regarding
> Kylix' future. While there still are a lot of things that are unknown, one
> thing is for sure now: The future for Kylix-build applications is secured,
> no matter if Borland decides to continue the product or not.
>
> Simon
I use Kylix in house to make utility programs for use on our Linux
servers, but to use the current Kylix product to produce a commercial
desktop product would be more than a little bit scary.
If Borland wants some additional feedback on Kylix, perhaps they should
take a look at what happened to the price of Borland Stock when Kylix
was announce in Jan 2001, and where it is going now with their present
strategy. I know there are a lot of other factors involved in the price
of Borland stock, but I do believe one of the major reasons for the
higher prices in the recent past was the possibility of one code base
for Windows and Linux. I wish they would renew that original enthusiasm.
| |
| Dave Nottage [TeamB] 2005-05-27, 4:04 am |
| Harry Barclay wrote:
> I use Kylix in house to make utility programs for use on our Linux
> servers, but to use the current Kylix product to produce a commercial
> desktop product would be more than a little bit scary.
FWIW, I'm producing a desktop product (although it is for one customer
only, but potentially thousands of units) with the current version of
Kylix, and it is not Kylix that makes it scary; it is Linux that does.
--
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
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>
> Indepedent from Borland there also is a lot of stuff going on regarding
> Kylix' future. While there still are a lot of things that are unknown, one
> thing is for sure now: The future for Kylix-build applications is secured,
> no matter if Borland decides to continue the product or not.
>
Could you explain a bit more?
| |
| Edmund 2005-05-27, 4:04 pm |
| Dave Nottage [TeamB] sighed and wrote::
>
> FWIW, I'm producing a desktop product (although it is for one customer
> only, but potentially thousands of units) with the current version of
> Kylix, and it is not Kylix that makes it scary; it is Linux that does.
>
Just a matter of curiosity, why's that? Aside for the conceptual
differences in how things are executed within the Linux desktop,
what else?
I only just managed to get a desktop 'powerful' enough to run
Kylix 2 (or was it 3), but I suppose my experience with it is
still lukewarm at best. The IDE's slow. Then I took a look
at KDevelop which is a neat IDE, except for the fact that
I can't program in C++ to save my life. Ok. I lied. I
can do basic stuff like defining basic classes and
instantiating them; but when it comes to namespaces
and templates, it's bye-bye.
But I digress.
Edmund
| |
| Dave Nottage [TeamB] 2005-05-27, 4:04 pm |
| Edmund wrote:
> Just a matter of curiosity, why's that? Aside for the conceptual
> differences in how things are executed within the Linux desktop,
> what else?
Lack of knowledge/understanding on the customers part is a huge one.
Their Windows knowledge far outstrips their knowledge of Linux, and
gaining Linux knowledge is prohibitive due to a number of factors,
including multiple distributions, which can make it confusing and
difficult for a lot of people to gain an understanding of. Multiple
desktop options with different applications for doing the same thing
adds fuel to the fire, but then I'm stating the obvious here with all
that.
> I only just managed to get a desktop 'powerful' enough to run
> Kylix 2 (or was it 3), but I suppose my experience with it is
> still lukewarm at best. The IDE's slow.
FWIW, it worked fine for me. That is until I started using Delphi 7 and
CrossKylix, so now the speed of the Kylix IDE on Linux makes no
difference since I don't (or hardly ever) use it.
--
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
| |
| Harry Barclay 2005-05-27, 4:04 pm |
| Dave Nottage [TeamB] wrote:
>
>
> FWIW, it worked fine for me. That is until I started using Delphi 7 and
> CrossKylix, so now the speed of the Kylix IDE on Linux makes no
> difference since I don't (or hardly ever) use it.
>
Kylix 3 works fine for me, although if I were starting a new project I
would go with CrossKylix. So far now you can produce a Linux desktop app
easily that will work great. However as far as I'm concerned that's
only possible thanks to the efforts of Mr. Hausladen and Mr. Kissel.
What happens 3-5 years from now when your customers are demanding an
updated user interface, and those gentlemen have moved on to other projects.
Kylix or CrossKylix really needs a long term commitment from Borland to
be a viable option for me.
| |
| juliusz 2005-05-27, 9:00 pm |
| Dave Nottage [TeamB] wrote:
>
> FWIW, I'm producing a desktop product (although it is for one customer
> only, but potentially thousands of units) with the current version of
> Kylix, and it is not Kylix that makes it scary; it is Linux that does.
>
How so? If you are designing an application for one client then you
shouldn't have any issue with Linux, specially, if your intended
target is multiple deployment in one organization. You make your
application, test and configure it for one particular Linux
distribution and deploy your application together with that specific
Linux distribution. This approach works very well and often the
end-user in normal day-to-day use of your application doesn't have any
idea (or doesn't care) on what operating system it runs on. Linux is
an excellent choice to host such custom application (for one
organization - multiple deployments ) because it permits to be easily
customized. In situation when you cannot do this then a Linux system
administrator will take care of the multiple deployments, set up and
maintain your application on all involved workstations.
While Kylix application will work well on variety of Linux distros we
cannot say the same about Kylix. The Kylix IDE is based on very old
and heavily hacked wine library. The Kylix IDE is very fragile and
sensitive to environment changes, even if you install it on supported
Linux distribution the Kylix IDE may or may not work correctly.
(That's why one person will tell you it works for me very well other
one will tell you that Kylix is unusable)
The solution is to assemble such development system from selected
components, network it with other Linux boxes and fine tune it to
Kylix needs. Further, it depends from the type of application you
do. For example it is really a nightmare to design a database
application with Kylix. The IDE designer my work fine for simple
database connectivity but if you have more complex database structure
then it suffers form unexpected setting losses, not responding to
changes of components property values, weird behavior, sluggishness
etc.. in other words, it stops to be RAD. Basically, it is necessary
to complement Kylix with external custom made tools to do this type of
development, use third-party components and best to avoid the use of
Kylix dbExpress. Then, there is the persistent problems related to
Kylix incompatibility with current Linux technology, due to lack of
support and updates for Kylix, but I think it is pointless to state
the obvious again and again...
CrossKylix is an excellent way to overcome some of the Kylix IDE
problems, but it is not a substitute or solution for absence of
Borlands support for Kylix and unfortunately will not help much users
of Kylix which do not own Delphi 6/7 (which by the way are removed
from the marked by Borland and Delphi 2005 does not have CLX) You can
go and buy Kylix today, but you will have problems to get Delphi 7, so
how you can use CrossKylix or how you can do the cross-development for
Linux and Windows – witch is the advertised main advantage of using
Kylix/Delphi? Beside, for some type of applications it is just
necessary to develop it and debug on Linux, so it looks like another
problem to be solve.
Thanks god (and not only) we have the unofficial patches for Kylix,
but there is a limit what they can improve. Borland controls Kylix
IDE and only they can fix it. Kylix users won't be able to do this
because of lack of access to Kylix source code. If the Kylix IDE
cannot be open-sourced for some legal reasons and if Borland doesn't
have resources to do the update, I do not see why the source code for
the IDE couldn't be make available to selected willing developers
under NDA, it surely will not cost Borland anything and we all could
enjoy unofficial Kylix (unKylix) as we are enjoying the unofficial
patches.
juliusz
--
InstallMade - Kylix-specific installer
http://www.superobject.com/installmade/
http://www.superobject.com/imoe/download.html
| |
| Simon Kissel 2005-05-27, 9:00 pm |
| > Dave Nottage [TeamB] wrote:
and[color=darkred]
>=20
>=20
> Kylix 3 works fine for me, although if I were starting a new project I =
> would go with CrossKylix. So far now you can produce a Linux desktop =
app=20
> easily that will work great. However as far as I'm concerned that's=20
> only possible thanks to the efforts of Mr. Hausladen and Mr. Kissel.
>=20
> What happens 3-5 years from now when your customers are demanding an=20
> updated user interface, and those gentlemen have moved on to other =
projects.
>=20
> Kylix or CrossKylix really needs a long term commitment from Borland =
to=20
> be a viable option for me.
Of course the optimal solution would be Borland to step up on this, and =
I still
hope they'll do.
And while I'm probably not as "futureproof" as a big company, you can =
rest
assured that CrossKylix and CrossFPC will get updated and maintained for
a LONG period. There is a simple reason why I can't move on to other =
projects:
The company I own and work for sells server software products and =
solutions,
and there is a gigantic object pascal codebase. And our enterprise =
customers=20
demand Linux server applications. The share of Linux vs Windows product =
copys
we are selling meanwhile is somewhere near 80/20, while it was the other =
way
round a few years ago.
Looking at possible migration paths I don't see anything that would come
even close to OP, dbexpress and the whole Delphi infrastructure.
As long as I don't get overrun by a bus or something, I'll make sure =
that
at least Delphi/Kylix server applications will run on all current Linux
targets. If Borland should decide to drop Kylix, FPC and CrossFPC
will fill the gap.=20
And in case I'm gone one day, those projects all are open-source and =
someone
could take over the job.
Simon
| |
|
| Gesundheit!
"Simon Kissel" <kissel@computerman.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:429788e1$1@newsgroups.borland.com...
> Dave Nottage [TeamB] wrote:
>
>
> Kylix 3 works fine for me, although if I were starting a new project I
> would go with CrossKylix. So far now you can produce a Linux desktop app
> easily that will work great. However as far as I'm concerned that's
> only possible thanks to the efforts of Mr. Hausladen and Mr. Kissel.
>
> What happens 3-5 years from now when your customers are demanding an
> updated user interface, and those gentlemen have moved on to other
projects.
>
> Kylix or CrossKylix really needs a long term commitment from Borland to
> be a viable option for me.
Of course the optimal solution would be Borland to step up on this, and I
still
hope they'll do.
And while I'm probably not as "futureproof" as a big company, you can rest
assured that CrossKylix and CrossFPC will get updated and maintained for
a LONG period. There is a simple reason why I can't move on to other
projects:
The company I own and work for sells server software products and solutions,
and there is a gigantic object pascal codebase. And our enterprise customers
demand Linux server applications. The share of Linux vs Windows product
copys
we are selling meanwhile is somewhere near 80/20, while it was the other way
round a few years ago.
Looking at possible migration paths I don't see anything that would come
even close to OP, dbexpress and the whole Delphi infrastructure.
As long as I don't get overrun by a bus or something, I'll make sure that
at least Delphi/Kylix server applications will run on all current Linux
targets. If Borland should decide to drop Kylix, FPC and CrossFPC
will fill the gap.
And in case I'm gone one day, those projects all are open-source and someone
could take over the job.
Simon
| |
| Edmund 2005-05-28, 4:00 am |
| Dave Nottage [TeamB] sighed and wrote::
> Edmund wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Lack of knowledge/understanding on the customers part is a huge one.
Yes, I would say that's a major obstacle. The Windows mindset is
so ingrained into the customer, it'd be hard to 'unset' this
concept and have them try a go at Linux.
> Their Windows knowledge far outstrips their knowledge of Linux, and
> gaining Linux knowledge is prohibitive due to a number of factors,
> including multiple distributions, which can make it confusing and
> difficult for a lot of people to gain an understanding of. Multiple
That's another reason why it's getting a little difficult to keep
up in the Linux world. But the issue is, an application developed
on, say Red Hat, shouldn't really have trouble compiling in, say
Mandrake. The problem is library dependency and stuff.
I dream that one day, I'll develop every piece of software under
Linux and run any application under that environment. As it stands,
my programming skills isn't quite up to par to do anything.
>
> FWIW, it worked fine for me. That is until I started using Delphi 7 and
> CrossKylix, so now the speed of the Kylix IDE on Linux makes no
> difference since I don't (or hardly ever) use it.
I see. I'll have to check out CrossKylix. And perhaps do a bit
more work on Delphi.
Thanks
Edmund
| |
| Ronald Klitsche 2005-05-30, 9:00 am |
| > delphi2006 will include C++ personality, perhaps a WXCL could start ?
> as VCL alternative...
There is already a Borland wxWindows C++ success story called CBuilderX
http://www.borland.com/cbuilderx
Since 2 years no further development ... looks like a Kylix clone;-)
Ronald
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