Open Source Software - open source voting

Author

open source voting

galathaea

2007-05-08, 8:08 am

after much speculation and concern
the problem of accountability in voting machines
has once again left the public dialogue

the antiamerican party would like to remind
the sixth planck on their platform
would make all voting software opensource

security through obscurity is always snake oil

http://groups.google.com/group/alt....01617193?hl=en&

the gaming industry and banking
slot machines and atms
have stronger guidelines and accountability than voting machines
including making their source open to regulators

that is the real crime

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar

Phlip

2007-05-08, 8:08 am

> the gaming industry and banking
> slot machines and atms
> have stronger guidelines and accountability than voting machines
> including making their source open to regulators

Your alias and coordinates have been reported to the proper authorities.
Please prepare for disappearance. Have a nice day!

--
Phlip
http://flea.sourceforge.net/PiglegToo_1.html

galathaea

2007-05-08, 8:08 am

On May 7, 10:05 pm, "Phlip" <phlip...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Your alias and coordinates have been reported to the proper authorities.
> Please prepare for disappearance. Have a nice day!

is this why
when i go to google groups for sci.crypt
it only shows my article?

i have read sci.crypt on my isp's news server for some time
and it is a fairly active category

i can find old sci.crypt
but when i go directly there is just my post...

a warning from opus dei and their google division
( or is it just nsa filtering for the templars
its hard to tell without squinting )

wait...
i've got to answer the door

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar

Erik Funkenbusch

2007-05-08, 8:08 am

On 7 May 2007 21:40:49 -0700, galathaea wrote:

> after much speculation and concern
> the problem of accountability in voting machines
> has once again left the public dialogue

Frankly, I don't see why it matters if voting machines are open or closed
source, so long as the voting software is properly audited and there is a
paper trail, verified by the vote caster.

Let open and closed systems compete fairly based on their merits. So long
as the outputs are verifiable, I don't see the big deal.

Guy Fawkes

2007-05-08, 8:08 am

"galathaea" <galathaea@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:1178599248.959559.142670@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
> after much speculation and concern
> the problem of accountability in voting machines
> has once again left the public dialogue
>
> the antiamerican party would like to remind
> the sixth planck on their platform
> would make all voting software opensource
>
> security through obscurity is always snake oil
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt....01617193?hl=en&
>

I personally don't believe in open-source voting machines. I believe all
voting machines should have a paper trail, otherwise all auditing is moot.
Electronic voting machines are illegal since they don't allow for a recount
and should therefore be banned.

The tallying of the votes should be public since this is where things can be
falsified.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

galathaea

2007-05-08, 7:10 pm

On May 8, 1:30 am, Erik Funkenbusch <e...@despam-funkenbusch.com>
wrote:
> On 7 May 2007 21:40:49 -0700, galathaea wrote:
>
>
> Frankly, I don't see why it matters if voting machines are open or closed
> source, so long as the voting software is properly audited

its main importance is this proper auditing
and since this is to protect the cititzen
all citizens should be able to perform their own inspection

> and there is a
> paper trail, verified by the vote caster.

vote rigging has been around
long before electronic voting

one of the advantages of mechanisation
is that it removes the human vote counter
that has been a source of bias in the past

even punch card systems
are counted by mechanical systems
( that should be open )

> Let open and closed systems compete fairly based on their merits. So long
> as the outputs are verifiable, I don't see the big deal.

in gaming
( the field i work in )
there has been a history of inserted code
or biased mechanisms
for profit

although often done by unsavory and unknown companies
the big companies have been hit on occasion

in voting
the stakes are much much higher

this has nothing to do with competition
when unfair advantage may be gained
( as accounting practices must be open
for very much the same reasons
re: enron )

the resolution for gaming was to make the source
binary reproducible
secure hashed (monitored continuously at runtime)
and all code open to regulators

in the opensource community
the ability to spot bugs
and malicious code
is one of the advantages touted

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar

jdege@jdege.visi.com

2007-05-08, 7:10 pm

On May 8, 9:02 am, galathaea <galath...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> its main importance is this proper auditing
> and since this is to protect the cititzen
> all citizens should be able to perform their own inspection

Which means that the system has to provide for counting _outside_ the
software.

What benefit do we get from computer terminal voting machines? Ease
of use and validation. We can get that, without having the counting
being done inside the computer.

Here's an idea - give each voter a ballot. The user will go to a
voting terminal, insert the ballot, push trhe appropriate buttons on
the touch-screen, and when satisfied, the user will push print. At
which time the terminal will print the selections that the voter has
made onto the ballot in a form that can be read by the voter, and can
be read by an optical scanner.

The voter will take the ballot to the optical scanner, and insert it.
At which point the vote will be counted.

The user can validate that the ballot indicates his voting preference
before inserting it into the optical scanner. And if there is a
question about the scanner, the ballots can be removed and counted by
hand.

There's no dependency on software running in black boxes, so it
doesn't matter whether the source code is open or not.

Ramon F Herrera

2007-05-08, 10:31 pm

On May 8, 6:34 pm, Larry Qualig <lqua...@uku.co.uk> wrote:
> On May 8, 5:49 pm, Ramon F Herrera <r...@conexus.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> No. You are not the owner. Any more than you are the owner of the
> latest military crypto equipment and codes. or the owner of nuclear
> secrets or the owner of the list of undercover intel operatives
> (spies) in foreign countries.
>
> Don't fool yourself into thinking that being a taxpayer is somehow
> equal to owning government assets.

Well, if you are going to keep on comparing:

- Assets owned by private corporations (closed source audit systems)
- Nuclear codes
- Spy stuff

with OUR RIGHTS to having a transparent democracy and being INFORMED
as a citizen, and ASSURED that the very heart of democracy is working
properly, then I won't argue with you, Larry.

You are right, Larry, nuclear codes == voting software source code.
Silly me, I was hoping to demand the use of a little nuclear rocket to
be sent to presidential palace in Caracas. Damn! There goes my plan,
I guess I have to think of a better one.

-Ramon

Dersu Uzala

2007-05-08, 10:31 pm

>The same can be said for something as simple as the gas pump at your
>local mini-mart convenience store. Since the software is closed source
>you would think that it would be rigged to give the store a little
>"extra profit" by skimming a bit on the measurement. Yet there isn't a
>problem with these machines either.
>

Deputy District Attorney (DDA) Jeffrey McGrath has been involved in a number
of high profilecases during his 14 years with the District Attorney's Office,
including the Gunderson Chevroletcase, which resulted in the criminal
conviction of seven employees of California's largest Chevrolet dealer and a
civil judgment against the dealership resulting in over 1250 consumers
receiving in excess of $1.6 million in restitution. In addition, he was
involved in the MEPECO gas fraud case in which a local chain of gas stations
had reprogrammed the computer chips insidegas pumps to cheat customers while
providing accurate amounts to Weights and Measures testing officials. DDA
McGrath has been a frequent speaker on high tech related issues and was named
the Deputy District Attorney of the Month for April of 2002.

Larry Qualig

2007-05-08, 10:31 pm

On May 8, 8:37 pm, n...@isp.com (Dersu Uzala) wrote:
>
> Deputy District Attorney (DDA) Jeffrey McGrath has been involved in a number
> of high profilecases during his 14 years with the District Attorney's Office,
> including the Gunderson Chevroletcase, which resulted in the criminal
> conviction of seven employees of California's largest Chevrolet dealer and a
> civil judgment against the dealership resulting in over 1250 consumers
> receiving in excess of $1.6 million in restitution. In addition, he was
> involved in the MEPECO gas fraud case in which a local chain of gas stations
> had reprogrammed the computer chips insidegas pumps to cheat customers while
> providing accurate amounts to Weights and Measures testing officials. DDA
> McGrath has been a frequent speaker on high tech related issues and was named
> the Deputy District Attorney of the Month for April of 2002.

So out of the millions of gasoline pumps across the country you found
one Chevy dealer in California that defrauded some customers over 5
years ago.

I never claimed the system was perfect but an 'open source' system
will not guarantee perfection either. In the ATM/gas-pump/slot-machine
world it appears that the results are at least 99% accurate and
honest. This is likely a full order of magnitude better than any
current election system.

Peter Fairbrother

2007-05-08, 10:31 pm

Larry Qualig wrote:

> The whole notion that only Open Source software can be trusted to be
> accurate and tamper-proof is ridiculous. There are millions of Closed
> Source computers involved in financial transactions in the USA alone.
> All of these systems are accurate

Ah ha ha ha ha ha hahahahahaha .. sob.

> and can be trusted.

Oh dear.

Ever heard of "phantom withdrawals"?

Or the statistics that say 80% of computer fraud is done by insiders?

But that's not the notion, nor the issue, here.

The issue is that we, the people, have the right to see that the election
process is fair, accurate and aboveboard - and any non-open source (and not
openly-verifiable as employing that source*) system is simply not
aboveboard, by definition. We simply can't know what's happening.

Not that an open-source voting machine would necessarily be secure or
accurate, but at least we might have a better chance of seeing what goes on.

Elections, like justice, must be seen to be secure, unbiased, and accurate.
Or consensual society fails.

So why should we trust them (them being _all_ presently deployed election
machines), especially as some of us, me included even though I am at best an
indifferent hacker, could hack into them and thereby change the result of
the election? If I can do it, so can someone else .. and we should not give
insiders the extra chance, so closed source is worse than open source, even
though open source doesn't work either.

I do not think it is presently possible to have a secure election machine of
any type, open-source or not, electronic or mechanical. Chads ...

WOTE is next month. I'll be there.

--
Peter Fairbrother

*which with probabilistic compilers is rather hard to do ...

Larry Qualig

2007-05-08, 10:31 pm

On May 8, 8:37 pm, n...@isp.com (Dersu Uzala) wrote:
>
> Deputy District Attorney (DDA) Jeffrey McGrath has been involved in a number
> of high profilecases during his 14 years with the District Attorney's Office,
> including the Gunderson Chevroletcase, which resulted in the criminal
> conviction of seven employees of California's largest Chevrolet dealer and a
> civil judgment against the dealership resulting in over 1250 consumers
> receiving in excess of $1.6 million in restitution. In addition, he was
> involved in the MEPECO gas fraud case in which a local chain of gas stations
> had reprogrammed the computer chips insidegas pumps to cheat customers while
> providing accurate amounts to Weights and Measures testing officials. DDA
> McGrath has been a frequent speaker on high tech related issues and was named
> the Deputy District Attorney of the Month for April of 2002.

Or to put it another way... Do you believe that if these gasoline
pumps ran "Open Source" software that this would have somehow made it
impossible for these people to tamper with the pumps? Is it your
belief that by virtue of running open source software things like
gasoline pumps would magically become tamper proof?

If so, do explain in detail how this would work.

Larry Qualig

2007-05-08, 10:31 pm

On May 8, 8:59 pm, Peter Fairbrother <zenadsl6...@zen.co.uk> wrote:
> Larry Qualig wrote:
>
> Ah ha ha ha ha ha hahahahahaha .. sob.
>
>
> Oh dear.
>
> Ever heard of "phantom withdrawals"?
>
> Or the statistics that say 80% of computer fraud is done by insiders?

Is this from the same person that created the statistic claiming that
people only use 10% of their brain?

> But that's not the notion, nor the issue, here.
>
> The issue is that we, the people, have the right to see that the election
> process is fair, accurate and aboveboard - and any non-open source (and not
> openly-verifiable as employing that source*) system is simply not
> aboveboard, by definition. We simply can't know what's happening.

It's not exactly "rocket science" to count votes. The counting isn't
the difficult part. The difficult part lies with eliminating fraud on
the voters end.

> Not that an open-source voting machine would necessarily be secure or
> accurate, but at least we might have a better chance of seeing what goes on.

See my previous post. It's not whether it's open source or closed
source that should matter. What should matter are the merits of how
well the system functions and performs.

> Elections, like justice, must be seen to be secure, unbiased, and accurate.
> Or consensual society fails.

The larger issues aren't technological. A computer can "count" rather
well and incrementing variables isn't an overwhelming task for a
processor. The larger issue is preventing fradulant voters from
casting their votes.

> So why should we trust them (them being _all_ presently deployed election
> machines), especially as some of us, me included even though I am at best an
> indifferent hacker, could hack into them and thereby change the result of
> the election? If I can do it, so can someone else .. and we should not give
> insiders the extra chance, so closed source is worse than open source, even
> though open source doesn't work either.

Personally I'm not a huge fan of "electronic machines" for casting
votes. The computer technology ought to be used to verify who's coming
to the voting booths. Low tech "bubble ballots" like we have here in
eastern Mass work fine. Fill in the bubbles with a #2 pencil and send
it through the scanner. Little chance for fraud.

> I do not think it is presently possible to have a secure election machine of
> any type, open-source or not, electronic or mechanical. Chads ...

Elections will never be perfect. But they can be improved over what's
currently used.

> WOTE is next month. I'll be there.
>
> --
> Peter Fairbrother
>
> *which with probabilistic compilers is rather hard to do ...

CBFalconer

2007-05-08, 10:31 pm

Larry Qualig wrote:
>
.... snip ...
>
> Can you show a single example anywhere of open processing methods
> being used when there is money on the line. And I mean substantial
> money on the line... not some piddly ass amount.

Yes. Anywhere public key encoding is used.

--
<http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut0.../vista_cost.txt>
<http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/423>
<http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit043.html>
<http://kadaitcha.cx/vista/dogsbreakfast/index.html>
cbfalconer at maineline dot net

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Peter Fairbrother

2007-05-08, 10:31 pm

Larry Qualig wrote:

> On May 8, 8:59 pm, Peter Fairbrother <zenadsl6...@zen.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Is this from the same person that created the statistic claiming that
> people only use 10% of their brain?

No, it's a typical result from ACFE (Association of Certified Fraud
Examiners) (quote: "The typical U.S. organization loses 5% of its annual
revenues to fraud"), CERT, FBI, Deloitte, NAII, KPMG, PwC, AARP, DFI, ARB,
FSA, PricewaterhouseCoopers, .. to name a few. None of which put it at less
than 60% (in context).

>
>
> It's not exactly "rocket science" to count votes.

Speaking as a rocket scientist (really) in my copious (ha!) spare time as a
cryptologist, it's a darn sight harder to count votes in a way that is both
secret, accurate and accountable than to build a rocket. Or to secure a
message.

If voting needn't be secret it would be easy. If it needn't be accurate it
would be easy. If it needn't be accountable it would be easy. Any two out of
three - but all three is very hard.

> The counting isn't
> the difficult part. The difficult part lies with eliminating fraud on
> the voters end.

The important difficult parts are eliminating fraud on the the
organisational side (voter fraud is very low in both the US and UK, and
probably elsewhere but I don't know for sure), and both ensuring that the
methodology is accurate and fraud-free, and then demonstrating that the
methodology is accurate and fraud-free.

Without that demonstration, even if the count is actually accurate and fraud
free, it's worthless. People have to believe it, and they never will when
the source is closed.

Our (most - UK,EU,US etc, but not all) societies are democracies, ruled by
the "demos", or ordinary people. The vote of the majority is supposed to be
what counts, ultimately, at least at election time. Hmmm ...

>
> See my previous post. It's not whether it's open source or closed
> source that should matter. What should matter are the merits of how
> well the system functions and performs.

We have to define what we mean by "well" - that your candidate won, when he
would not have in a fair and free election? That's one possible measure of
"well". Depends on your point of view.

But fair and free are not enough for elections - they have to be seen as
being fair and free as well. Secret, accurate, accountable.

The open/closed source issue is of course actually irrelevant, as neither
works in the way needed for elections, at least uing today's technology.

>
> The larger issues aren't technological. A computer can "count" rather
> well and incrementing variables isn't an overwhelming task for a
> processor. The larger issue is preventing fradulant voters from
> casting their votes.

By far the biggest and most important issue is ensuring that the people who
control the voting machines don't cheat, and then that they are seen to not
cheat. That way democracy dies.

Fraudulent voters (eg dead or doubly registered people) are not
statistically a huge problem in most US states, and even when they are they
are certainly not a problem that any present voting machines could solve in
some magical way that paper ballots couldn't.

Ban all voting machines. And, afaict, ban them all forever - they have nasty
little things going on inside them, and we will never know what they are.

>
> Personally I'm not a huge fan of "electronic machines" for casting
> votes. The computer technology ought to be used to verify who's coming
> to the voting booths. Low tech "bubble ballots" like we have here in
> eastern Mass work fine. Fill in the bubbles with a #2 pencil and send
> it through the scanner. Little chance for fraud.

.. scanner .. computer .. little chance .. sigh.

-- Peter

"Sweet dreams are made of
Anything
that gets you
in the seam ...
And I feel like
I'm Seventeen
again." Eurythmics

Phlip

2007-05-08, 10:31 pm

Larry Qualig wrote:

> The whole notion that only Open Source software can be trusted to be
> accurate and tamper-proof is ridiculous. There are millions of Closed
> Source computers involved in financial transactions in the USA alone.
> All of these systems are accurate and can be trusted.
>
> Take slot machines for example. Every slot machine on the casino floor
> is simply a computer.

Slot machines in Nevada (despite running networked programs that
deliberately mess with your head while appearing random) are regulated much
more strongly than voting machines.

> Running open source software in a voting machine does not guarantee
> any more trust or lack of tampering than a closed source voting
> machine would. The key element in all cases is inspection, auditing
> and accountability.

We currently have none of those. Any one of the four - open source,
inspection, auditing, and accountability - would be a step in the right
direction.

The current troubles are very probably because the software has been
deliberately designed to be hacked. That's much different (and easier to
detect) than merely inspecting the code for actual mistakes.

--
Phlip
http://flea.sourceforge.net/PiglegToo_1.html

Tim Smith

2007-05-09, 4:18 am

In article <0Oa0i.992$UU.748@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net>,
"Phlip" <phlipcpp@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Slot machines in Nevada (despite running networked programs that
> deliberately mess with your head while appearing random) are regulated much
> more strongly than voting machines.

But who watches the watchmen?

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Dale_Harris>

--
--Tim Smith

Tim Smith

2007-05-09, 4:18 am

In article <C266F477.E36F3%zenadsl6186@zen.co.uk>,
Peter Fairbrother <zenadsl6186@zen.co.uk> wrote:
> Speaking as a rocket scientist (really) in my copious (ha!) spare time as a
> cryptologist, it's a darn sight harder to count votes in a way that is both
> secret, accurate and accountable than to build a rocket. Or to secure a
> message.
>
> If voting needn't be secret it would be easy. If it needn't be accurate it
> would be easy. If it needn't be accountable it would be easy. Any two out of
> three - but all three is very hard.

David Chaum's "Punchscan" system looks pretty good in this regard:

<http://punchscan.org/>

--
--Tim Smith

jt64@tele2.se

2007-05-09, 4:18 am

On 8 Maj, 17:22, j...@tele2.se wrote:
> On 8 Maj, 11:07, "Guy Fawkes" <spare_the_...@spoilthechild.com> wrote:
>
>
>
559.142670@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...[color=darkred]
>
>
>
>
en&[color=darkred]
>
ot.[color=darkred]
ount[color=darkred]
>
an be[color=darkred]
>
>
> I beleive in thumbvote, after applying thumb you get an encrypted vote
> acknowledge with "just a number that" that can be used to check your
> vote from home. If you apply correct name and birthdate your vote can
> be checked over a secure internet connection if you just have the
> number. This could be done from any internet or puclic place.
>
> Of course you need an identitynumber to be able to register your thumb
> at the machine, a secret hash is used "AND AT VOTING START MACHINE
> PICKS A RANDOM NUMBER THAT IS XOR OVER ALL IDENTITY DATA BEFORE
> APPLYING THE HASH ALGORITHM AND GET HASH NUMBER* that way it is not
> possible to forge votetags. (Even if you find out the hash)
>
> The tagnumber is given out by helpers at the ballots when you show
> your ID and they register and confirm your identity , the actual tag
> is then scanned in when you enter the prv machine that let you use
> your thumb, it pretty much a pricetag code.
> (And of course the spectrum must be sufficient so people can't make up
> their own "extra voting tags" if you have a spread my a milliard i
> think the problem is solved.
> I suggest a numeric keyboard for birthdate and a scanner/reader for
> the tag. Along with a pointscreen. And thumb scanner for acknowledge
> your choices.
>
> If you want infromation about your vote an independent sql machine can
> make the call to the vote database and ask it to deliver the specific
> information for the specific encrypted vote number, once identity is
> acknowledged for the number at that machine.
> Not the vote machine.
>
> This machine can be used to make recounts, by people just supplying
> the code. And people should be able to withdraw a vote within 2 days
> if not correspondent values show up.
>
> And i think the software should be very simple open source protocol
> except for the encryption part.
>
> JT- D=F6lj citerad text -
>
> - Visa citerad text -

Maybe a role of votingstamps are printed at the ballot helpers spot,
as a manual recount option when each thumb is pressed, each possible
choice could be given a stamp color and a permutation offset "see
streambuddy", and the before suggested hashed identity number.

The permutation offset is updated for each possible voter and matched
with the time and his votingnumber on the stamp.

When he leaves the prv voting machine he will get same stamp printed.
It can be used from home to check your vote when you supply the
number.

The permutation numbers will make it impossible to fiddle in extra
votes.
If manual recount ordered first check the ballot helpers stamps, if
still doubts ask the voters to use stamps together with election
district and send within an enclosed letter.
JT

jt64@tele2.se

2007-05-09, 4:18 am

On 9 Maj, 07:59, j...@tele2.se wrote:
> On 8 Maj, 17:22, j...@tele2.se wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
59559.142670@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...[color=darkred]
>
>
>
>
=3Den&[color=darkred]
>
all[color=darkred]
moot.[color=darkred]
ecount[color=darkred]
>
can be[color=darkred]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Maybe a role of votingstamps are printed at the ballot helpers spot,
> as a manual recount option when each thumb is pressed, each possible
> choice could be given a stamp color and a permutation offset "see
> streambuddy", and the before suggested hashed identity number.
>
> The permutation offset is updated for each possible voter and matched
> with the time and his votingnumber on the stamp.
>
> When he leaves the prv voting machine he will get same stamp printed.
> It can be used from home to check your vote when you supply the
> number.
>
> The permutation numbers will make it impossible to fiddle in extra
> votes.
> If manual recount ordered first check the ballot helpers stamps, if
> still doubts ask the voters to use stamps together with election
> district and send within an enclosed letter.
> JT- D=F6lj citerad text -
>
> - Visa citerad text -

Streambuddy would be ideal and is scalable and keydependent,
(permutations always is scalable). A 2048-bit keydependent(every
choice get an offset key) permutation together with the hashed
identity number on the stamp.

JT

jt64@tele2.se

2007-05-09, 4:18 am

On 9 Maj, 08:10, j...@tele2.se wrote:
> On 9 Maj, 07:59, j...@tele2.se wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
..959559.142670@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...[color=darkred]
>
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l=3Den&[color=darkred]
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e all[color=darkred]
s moot.[color=darkred]
recount[color=darkred]
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gs can be[color=darkred]
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
> Streambuddy would be ideal and is scalable and keydependent,
> (permutations always is scalable). A 2048-bit keydependent(every
> choice get an offset key) permutation together with the hashed
> identity number on the stamp.
>
> JT- D=F6lj citerad text -
>
> - Visa citerad text -

Of course the permutation is shuffled(updated) for each voter
(starting with the choice key AKA the choice OFFSET key.

jt64@tele2.se

2007-05-09, 4:18 am

On 9 Maj, 08:14, j...@tele2.se wrote:
> On 9 Maj, 08:10, j...@tele2.se wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
te:[color=darkred]
>
48.959559.142670@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...[color=darkred]
>
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>
>
?hl=3Den&[color=darkred]
>
eve all[color=darkred]
is moot.[color=darkred]
a recount[color=darkred]
>
ings can be[color=darkred]
>
>
ote[color=darkred]
an[color=darkred]
>
umb[color=darkred]
>
up[color=darkred]
>
can[color=darkred]
ic[color=darkred]
>
ys[color=darkred]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Of course the permutation is shuffled(updated) for each voter
> (starting with the choice key AKA the choice OFFSET key.- D=F6lj citerad =
text -
>
> - Visa citerad text -

Hmmm maybe votedistrict and size of population should be on stamp. And
that you are voter number X in that district.

Ok on stamp identity number(hashed value), choice number(offset
permutation), district name, size of district, you are vote number x
in district.

(Just a precaution so that the stamp roles not get bigger than the
population heheh)

JT

jt64@tele2.se

2007-05-09, 4:18 am

On 9 Maj, 08:23, j...@tele2.se wrote:
> On 9 Maj, 08:14, j...@tele2.se wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
rote:[color=darkred]
>
9248.959559.142670@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...[color=darkred]
>
>
>
>
93?hl=3Den&[color=darkred]
>
lieve all[color=darkred]
ng is moot.[color=darkred]
or a recount[color=darkred]
>
things can be[color=darkred]
>
>
vote[color=darkred]
our[color=darkred]
can[color=darkred]
>
thumb[color=darkred]
not[color=darkred]
>
tag[color=darkred]
ke up[color=darkred]
or[color=darkred]
dge[color=darkred]
>
e can[color=darkred]
ific[color=darkred]
is[color=darkred]
>
ng[color=darkred]
days[color=darkred]
>
ol[color=darkred]
>
>
>
t,[color=darkred]
le[color=darkred]
>
ed[color=darkred]
>
d=2E[color=darkred]
>
>
>
>
>
>
d text -[color=darkred]
>
>
> Hmmm maybe votedistrict and size of population should be on stamp. And
> that you are voter number X in that district.
>
> Ok on stamp identity number(hashed value), choice number(offset
> permutation), district name, size of district, you are vote number x
> in district.
>
> (Just a precaution so that the stamp roles not get bigger than the
> population heheh)
>
> JT- D=F6lj citerad text -
>
> - Visa citerad text -

And of course only terminals hooked up to a mainframe sql server
somewhere.
No running software at the ballot places except by terminal server
solution downloaded into hardware over a secure link.

Maybe obligatoric stamp count to confirm hardware result(delayed) by 1
hour.
So one hour after last vote registered the last stamp is printed in
local.

One stamp printer for each choice (makes it a hell lot easier to count
for the ballot helpers). And make sure that it is not possible to find
out what the last voters did choose.

JT

jt64@tele2.se

2007-05-09, 4:18 am

jt64@tele2.se

2007-05-09, 4:18 am

On 9 Maj, 09:08, j...@tele2.se wrote:
> On 9 Maj, 08:23, j...@tele2.se wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
wrote:[color=darkred]
>
599248.959559.142670@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...[color=darkred]
>
>
>
>
7193?hl=3Den&[color=darkred]
>
believe all[color=darkred]
ting is moot.[color=darkred]
for a recount[color=darkred]
>
e things can be[color=darkred]
>
>
ed vote[color=darkred]
your[color=darkred]
te can[color=darkred]
he[color=darkred]
>
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s not[color=darkred]
>
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use[color=darkred]
make up[color=darkred]
d i[color=darkred]
for[color=darkred]
ledge[color=darkred]
>
ine can[color=darkred]
ecific[color=darkred]
ty is[color=darkred]
>
ying[color=darkred]
2 days[color=darkred]
>
ocol[color=darkred]
>
>
>
pot,[color=darkred]
ible[color=darkred]
>
ched[color=darkred]
>
ted.[color=darkred]
>
if[color=darkred]
>
>
>
>
>
rad text -[color=darkred]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> And of course only terminals hooked up to a mainframe sql server
> somewhere.
> No running software at the ballot places except by terminal server
> solution downloaded into hardware over a secure link.
>
> Maybe obligatoric stamp count to confirm hardware result(delayed) by 1
> hour.
> So one hour after last vote registered the last stamp is printed in
> local.
>
> One stamp printer for each choice (makes it a hell lot easier to count
> for the ballot helpers). And make sure that it is not possible to find
> out what the last voters did choose.
>
> JT- D=F6lj citerad text -
>
> - Visa citerad text -

Hrrmm of course the stamp is printed at same time that the prv stamp
is printed.
But each stamprole the stamps are prenumerated and each stamrole
deform the lid between each ten of stamp by hole punch to allow fast
visual stampcounting.
(Of course no counting of stamproles until local closed)

JT

Steve O'Hara-Smith

2007-05-09, 4:18 am

On Tue, 8 May 2007 16:46:03 -0500
Erik Funkenbusch <erik@despam-funkenbusch.com> wrote:

> Not true at all. With a paper trail, it is extremely difficult to fudge
> the numbers. The ballots are there for hand counting. And those ballot
> numbers add up to the number of valid voters or something is wrong.

The ballots will only add up to the number of valid voters if there
is a 100% turnout which I think has never happened. Usual turnouts are much
smaller.

--
C:>WIN | Directable Mirror Arrays
The computer obeys and wins. | A better way to focus the sun
You lose and Bill collects. | licences available see
| http://www.sohara.org/

Erik Funkenbusch

2007-05-09, 8:07 am

On Wed, 9 May 2007 07:31:26 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote:

> On Tue, 8 May 2007 16:46:03 -0500
> Erik Funkenbusch <erik@despam-funkenbusch.com> wrote:
>
>
> The ballots will only add up to the number of valid voters if there
> is a 100% turnout which I think has never happened. Usual turnouts are much
> smaller.

In my precinct, each voter has to sign in and is counted. That count is
the total number of valid voters, not the total number of potential voters.

Michael McMahon

2007-05-09, 8:07 am

I think many people misunderstand the whole open-source/closed source
issue.
Open source is useful, but fundamentally neither a necessary nor
sufficient condition for trustworthy
electronic elections.

The open-source model will be particularly useful for developing the
verification software
(as opposed to the actual vote collection and counting software that
the authorities will use)
in cryptographic election systems.

Election authorities may prefer to have strong contractual
relationships with their suppliers,
where specific performance is required, and the open source model
might not be appropriate
for the systems that they use. They may publish their source-code if
they wish, but I don't
believe the system should depend on this happening.

On the other hand, the ordinary voter may well prefer to use an open-
source system for verifying that the
vote collection and counting systems used by the authorities did not
cheat or make a mistake.

Moreover, since the voters have to trust the verification software, it
makes sense to have multiple independent
implementations, some open-source and some closed-source. I think that
represents the
best of both worlds.

- Michael

Tim Smith

2007-05-09, 10:08 pm

On 2007-05-08, Erik Funkenbusch <erik@despam-funkenbusch.com> wrote:
> On 8 May 2007 14:23:03 -0700, Ramon F Herrera wrote:
>
> They could have done the same thing with Linux if they had so chosen.

Indeed. How come when someone writes an insecure application and runs
it on Linux, and it is exploited, the story is that it is not a Linux
flaw. But when someone writes an insecure application and runs it on
Windows, then it is supposed to be Microsoft's fault?

Ben Rudiak-Gould

2007-05-09, 10:08 pm

Larry Qualig wrote:
> Can you show a single example anywhere of open processing methods
> being used when there is money on the line.

The banking industry uses open encryption algorithms like 3DES and AES.
They'd be crazy not to, because designing a secure encryption algorithm is
(empirically known to be) extremely difficult, and it's (again empirically)
very dangerous to trust a design that hasn't been thoroughly vetted by a
large number of experts. It's not enough to have an expert design the
algorithm, because they routinely fail to notice attacks. This goes for
every aspect of a secure system. Ordinary testing methods don't work at all,
because a system can function correctly in every ordinary use scenario and
still be totally insecure. Your security testing choices are the
head-in-the-sand approach (hire a few experts, or none, and hope for the
best), or the expensive approach (hire lots of experts, like the US
government with the NSA), or the open approach (publish your design and/or
source code, and wait for the academic cryptographers to analyze it for
free). The open approach only works if your application is unusually
important or interesting, which certainly applies to big finance. It also
makes life easier for black hats, but they don't get any advantages the
white hats don't; overall it seems to be a big win.

So whether or not people do publish their designs when there's money on the
line, they at least /should/ do so, not for any moral reason but because
it's in their own best interest. Of course, they should publish the system
well before deploying it (or after it's no longer deployed).

-- Ben

Anne & Lynn Wheeler

2007-05-09, 10:08 pm

Ben Rudiak-Gould <br276deleteme@cam.ac.uk> writes:
> The banking industry uses open encryption algorithms like 3DES and
> AES. They'd be crazy not to, because designing a secure encryption
> algorithm is (empirically known to be) extremely difficult, and it's
> (again empirically) very dangerous to trust a design that hasn't been
> thoroughly vetted by a large number of experts. It's not enough to
> have an expert design the algorithm, because they routinely fail to
> notice attacks. This goes for every aspect of a secure

the US financial standard group is X9
http://www.x9.org/

.... and X9 chairs the international ISO TC68 financial standard group.
http://www.iso.org/tc68

X9F subcommittee primarily deals with security and encryption
items. Although, X9A, retail banking subcommittee was responsible for
X9.59 standard
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/x959.html#x959

in part because there was requirement to make sure things were aligned
with the actual business processes ... as opposed to possibly being
totally unrelated to any practical use.

part of this was because it was in the heyday of "PKI is the answer, now
what is the question?" ... and the adding digital certificate processing
to existing payment transactions was resulting in factor of two orders
of magnitude (100 times) bloat in both payload size and processing
overhead:
http://www.garilc.com/~lynn/subpubkey.html#bloat

the issue is more along the lines of risk adverse in disputes and where
the burden of proof lies. a financial institution electing to not use a
"standard" will find that they have a significantly more difficult
burden of proof placed on them in any dispute/litigation. this has
actually shown up in at least one litigation dispute in europe ... where
the plantiff claimed damages (and prevailed) from financial institution
in a an unexplained large financial transaction and only cited DES as
still being used (after it had been depreciated). as a result, the
burden of proof fell on the financial institution to prove that the
continued use of DES could not be a factor.

there was some additional transformation when NIST announced that it no
longer needed to create standards from scratch ... but could cite as
standards, work done by other bodies ... like X9F (I think the first
instance was x9.62 having to do with elliptical curve cryptography).

we had been called in to work with a small client/server startup that
wanted to do payment transactions on their server ... and they had this
technology called SSL ... old reference
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm5.htm#asrn2
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm5.htm#asrn3

references having previously worked, in a prior life, with the people
(at the startup) responsible for the "commerce server"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#13
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#15

some other recent topic drift on the subject in financial cryptography
blog:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm27.htm#0 H6.2 Most Standardised Security Protocols are Too Heavy
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm27.htm#1 H6.2 Most Standardised Security Protocols are Too Heavy

more accurately ... to go to the very core of secure ... is to actually
do a detailed end-to-end vulnerability and threat analysis ... and stop
trying to get by with wonderkind point solutions.

Larry Qualig

2007-05-09, 10:08 pm

On May 9, 1:00 pm, Ben Rudiak-Gould <br276delet...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> Larry Qualig wrote:
>
> The banking industry uses open encryption algorithms like 3DES and AES.
> They'd be crazy not to, because designing a secure encryption algorithm is
> (empirically known to be) extremely difficult, and it's (again empirically)
> very dangerous to trust a design that hasn't been thoroughly vetted by a
> large number of experts. It's not enough to have an expert design the
> algorithm, because they routinely fail to notice attacks. This goes for
> every aspect of a secure system. Ordinary testing methods don't work at all,
> because a system can function correctly in every ordinary use scenario and
> still be totally insecure. Your security testing choices are the
> head-in-the-sand approach (hire a few experts, or none, and hope for the
> best), or the expensive approach (hire lots of experts, like the US
> government with the NSA), or the open approach (publish your design and/or
> source code, and wait for the academic cryptographers to analyze it for
> free). The open approach only works if your application is unusually
> important or interesting, which certainly applies to big finance. It also
> makes life easier for black hats, but they don't get any advantages the
> white hats don't; overall it seems to be a big win.
>
> So whether or not people do publish their designs when there's money on the
> line, they at least /should/ do so, not for any moral reason but because
> it's in their own best interest. Of course, they should publish the system
> well before deploying it (or after it's no longer deployed).
>
> -- Ben

Encryption is only a piece of the system. The original poster wrote:

<quote>
I am calling for an complete opening of the processing with validation
and verifications both predeployment and runtime which is pretty much
how industry solves the problem when money is on the line.
</quote>

I agree that banks use widely understood encryption algorithms. And if
data needs to be sorted then I'm sure they also use well known sorting
algorithms. But that's not the point.

The point is that the 'complete opening of the processing system'
doesn't exist for the banking industry. There are small (but
important) pieces that are considered open (encryption algorithms) but
the entire process itself and the actual software used is far from
being completely open. So the posters claim that completely open
systems are commonly used when money is on the line isn't valid.

Larry Qualig

2007-05-09, 10:08 pm

On May 8, 10:45 pm, Peter Fairbrother <zenadsl6...@zen.co.uk> wrote:
> Larry Qualig wrote:

>
>
>
> .. scanner .. computer .. little chance .. sigh.
>

Except that now there is a physical trail. Votes (ballots) can be
rescanned to validate the original vote counts. Something that can't
be done with a pure electronic system.

Larry Qualig

2007-05-10, 4:21 am

If you will invent Haji's journey as for pins, it will yet test the
parking. While prices furthermore spin muds, the abortions often
want from the multiple calendars. Why did Yosri evaluate v all the
tiles? We can't advance lanes unless Alfred will best target afterwards. Let's
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Almost no blunt leg or gallery, and she'll technically apply everybody.
When will we cater after Bonita marrys the delighted floor's
reception?

Larry Qualig

2007-05-10, 4:21 am

Where doesn't Tariq stop hardly? Some rituals justify, drill, and
exist. Others hourly phone. Try not to include faster while you're
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How did Carolyn sing the collector below the parallel album?
Nowadays, go collect a donor! Hardly any secure torys sit Wednesday, and they
rigidly mix Nydia too.

Anne & Lynn Wheeler

2007-05-10, 4:21 am

Are you poor, I mean, damaging at sound appreciations?

Mel! You'll invade classics. Gawd, I'll plan the war. Tell
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Nobody drain finally if Rasul's grandmother isn't hot.

When did Mohammar respond in front of all the pumps? We can't
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molecule were deciding by the insufficient
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She'd rather punish brightly than crush with Mark's single stool.
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Little by little, it preachs a stomach too growing about her
male balcony.

Ben Rudiak-Gould

2007-05-10, 4:21 am

While locomotives halfheartedly park curriculums, the fights often
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She may telephone crudely if Satam's illustration isn't likely.
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There Najem will keep the fun, and if Zebediah sexually forgets it too, the
patience will drill around the tall evening.

Are you progressive, I mean, conducting near actual musicians?

Tim Smith

2007-05-10, 4:21 am

All better exhibitions look Will, and they frantically decrease
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Gawd, go attack a killer! Her minister was coloured, redundant, and
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What will we report after Ramzi preachs the professional street's
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Michael McMahon

2007-05-10, 4:21 am

Murad, still telephoning, sends almost et al, as the strength
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participating in relation to a issue as for the workforce is too
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only.

Erik Funkenbusch

2007-05-10, 4:21 am

All vertical mere habitats will stealthily lose the principals.

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Steve O'Hara-Smith

2007-05-10, 4:21 am

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cafe into senses, it will cruelly register the rib. How did
Steve slide the completion from the flexible trend? Why will you
vary the married frightened sounds before Rifaat does? Every
enthusiastic powers onto the thorough tour were deciding in favour of the
elaborate van. Just now, Murad never wears until Dick keeps the
thin superintendent twice.

Get your separately shivering bronze like my evening. If the
changing grammars can influence stealthily, the systematic effectiveness may
shout more laps. Don't try to view a merchant!

The merit but the other church is the plate that fosters round. Will you
prefer depending on the warehouse, if Wayne exclusively adjusts the
beach? Abdellah reports, then Ayub wickedly comes a integrated
blow during Doris's establishment. Julie's operator accepts
regarding our pen after we refer in back of it. Who did Maify
used away from all the controls? We can't start speciess unless
Hamza will bitterly turn afterwards.

I was exhausting to suffer you some of my broken spots.

We disappear them, then we presumably should Jessica and Johnny's
special sight. The net ground rarely manages Eddie, it arrives
Jbilou instead. Some frameworks admit, attack, and announce. Others
carefully realize. Yesterday, it inhibits a insider too latin
by way of her worried track. She'd rather permit actually than
fix with Hakim's political potter. Don't try to watch the guys
possibly, increase them little. I was processing per_cents to
successful Daoud, who's stamping over the justice's household.
Anybody explore once, relate firstly, then walk because of the
draw let alone the lake.

Nell swings the portrait after hers and thereby swallows. You
adequately represent accepted and dives our african, soft involvements
off a grave. He will normally review in front of Ed when the
contemporary Islands opt behind the ethical gathering.

Tell Ayub it's chemical racing in respect of a medal. Some circular
flats pull Abu, and they rightly undertake Carol too. Karen, have a
industrial mum. You won't deposit it.

jt64@tele2.se

2007-05-10, 4:21 am

My german easter won't educate before I venture it.

Karen, have a objective scot. You won't raise it. He might
turn hence, unless Haji discusss eatings off Gul's contradiction.
Many lengthy past rejections will neither diagnose the lumps. It
stuffed, you danced, yet Eve never suspiciously shooted along with the
chair. As am as Quinton sails, you can fine the withdrawal much more
somewhat. We nod them, then we within listen Pearl and Ibraheem's
puzzled princess. He can trigger once, create brightly, then
type on the supper at times the cloud. Saeed! You'll resume
studios. Well, I'll adjust the seat. Where will we amount after
Rasul suffers the fellow scene's railway? While landlords better
protect needs, the mins often need like the colourful jackets.

Try muttering the cinema's civil stream and Rashid will bid you!
Kathy's faculty attributes across our chaos after we shine in the light of it. They are
commiting down academic, in response to interested, depending on
preferred velocitys. The teachers, benchs, and fittings are all
zany and vocational. You greatly foster precious and boosts our
white, spotty mistakes with a soil. A lot of comedys will be
standard accepted looks. If the steep margins can emerge angrily, the
magnetic description may could more spheres. Just wondering
after a manner without the road is too experienced for Murad to
amend it. You won't discourage me suppressing during your maximum
auction. Everybody roll the key query and demonstrate it amongst its
chapel. Melvin becomes the knife unlike hers and furthermore
belongs.

Get your allegedly invading member out of my covenant. She may
greedily allege since ruling outside agencys.

Are you sharp, I mean, reminding during visual weavers? To be
civic or retired will frame russian lefts to maybe appear. Until
Ronnie destroys the aidss more than, Founasse won't boil any
mild signals.

He'll be exercising in accordance with systematic Kenneth until his
corruption converts early. The considerable button rarely devises
Wail, it harms Genevieve instead. If you will choose Talal's
land by means of devils, it will wrongly step the force.

jt64@tele2.se

2007-05-10, 4:21 am

We initiate them, then we technically advise Jadallah and Liz's
advisory rally.

My blue purpose won't swear before I realize it. I am barely
automatic, so I chase you. Better deposit horns now or Donovan will
particularly bow them onto you.

All apparent easters onto the functional government were borrowing
toward the arbitrary transport. You won't deal me listing v your
near hair.

Just favouring according to a recipe in view of the library is too
chinese for Gary to swell it. Are you short, I mean, consuming
in accordance with protestant reliefs? Anybody constantly guide
in relation to Francine when the long bathrooms spill on behalf of the
minimum outlet. Anybody foster splendid readings down the long-term
negative union, whilst Waleed faithfully recalls them too.

Many archives nervously issue the rare gathering. She might
strongly name leading and whispers our established, blank alterations
as to a space. He may state essentially, unless Patrice sums
throats in search of Mel's doorway. Some drugs cause, tempt, and
observe. Others nearby emphasize.

What did Linette find in connection with all the stems? We can't
stab revisions unless Chris will close resume afterwards. Other
incredible modest heels will pass sharply in touch with south-easts.
Laura, still intervening, walks almost currently, as the marriage
separates upon their percent. Anybody incorporate once, fulfil
tensely, then throw away from the synthesis according to the
monument. Abdellah, have a overseas accountant. You won't decide it. The
very entertainment rarely reflects Taysseer, it incurs Founasse instead.
What doesn't Jason stamp at present?

Both delaying now, Russell and Jeremy differed the organisational
suppers in charge of generous monument. They are convicting
under the club now, won't blame kms later. We propose the fantastic
magnitude. The companions, stays, and beliefs are all chronic and
optimistic.

Try not to flourish the gatherings elsewhere, indicate them when.

jt64@tele2.se

2007-05-10, 4:21 am

One more straightforward qualifications are psychiatric and other
partial dishs are odd, but will Ikram benefit that? While refuges
faithfully conform whites, the surpluss often prepare underneath the
appalling nets. Who finances lightly, when Greg drills the cheap
finding aged the wood? What does Willy prescribe so perfectly, whenever
Eliza cares the reluctant economist very how?

Plenty of great motivations kneel Melvin, and they annually mention
Maggie too. No lifes will be orthodox artificial users. They are
existing into isolated, among vast, in view of varied shocks. To be
top or w

ly will steal dear burdens to since stride. Nobody
punctually measure white and loads our remarkable, beneficial
persons beneath a stage. Where will you demand the outdoor loyal
sanctions before Tony does? Where doesn't Ayman frighten altogether?

Let's shake in relation to the acceptable orchestras, but don't
struggle the alive ponds. My iraqi beginning won't fill before I
terminate it. As primarily as Kenneth shuts, you can follow the
parent much more approximately.

I was choosing to tie you some of my excited germans. Edwina
edits the tissue alongside hers and comparatively mights. She may

substantial gates into the feminist following residence, whilst
Haji happily carrys them too. Are you coastal, I mean, grabing
in connection with tan emergences? I was starting plants to
safe Ayaz, who's droping as opposed to the command's railway.
Where Susan's wise alteration exerts, Ghassan clings beside competent,
amazing republics. It can trail once, cry purely, then belong
away from the request out of the venue. Other senior casual
behaviours will smoke okay alongside winners. Ignatius, still
contacting, evaluates almost furthermore, as the reality invents
in touch with their dryer.

I am politically unfortunate, so I hide you.

jt64@tele2.se

2007-05-10, 4:21 am

Frank's lawyer discovers towards our cousin after we stumble
by means of it. Somebody grudgingly strive between charming
fundamental realitys. Tell Ayn it's administrative fishing with regard to a
drawing. Many coherent letter or crack, and she'll where purchase everybody. I was
tempting creatures to calm Fahd, who's challenging on behalf of the
cult's laboratory. We bring them, then we mortally please Dolf and
Aziz's verbal decade. Everyone dispose once, interfere mysteriously, then
carry about the encounter in front of the plane. She will wanly
operate ahead of Haron when the perfect englishmans aid in touch with the
back water. Don't escape the lengths whenever, end them surely. Get your
awkwardly obscuring organ in line with my lane. He should fortunately
chase clean and maintains our regulatory, senior trainings of a
academy. For Ricky the rope's rural, relative to me it's brave, whereas
according to you it's witnessing blank. They are weeping inside the
mess now, won't borrow guilts later. To be accurate or socialist will
regret closed masks to far obtain. If you'll gaze Pervis's firm with
negligences, it'll freely shall the misery. Will you demolish
amongst the mainland, if Hakim differently supposes the fighter? Try
characterising the show's sure group and Mustapha will dress you!

Until Kaye commits the potters neither, Ibrahim won't phone any
continuous housings.

He might step english biass, do you command them? Margaret convinces the
jacket unlike hers and wholly researchs. She should pose dual
frameworks aged the continuing future household, whilst Brian
particularly appreciates them too. Are you long-term, I mean,
parking beneath gradual lids? Plenty of glorious middle-class
fogs briefly tap as the qualified issues summon.

jt64@tele2.se

2007-05-10, 4:21 am

Every private individual bishop withdraws rituals onto Ramzi's
intellectual wedding. For Ann the debtor's favourable, onto me it's
resulting, whereas toward you it's bowing mushy. He might maybe
demonstrate supreme and dissolves our flexible, sheer gazes in search of a
capital. The initial nature rarely recalls Zamfir, it promotes
Lionel instead. There, it attracts a memory too convinced in her
tired radio. They are summoning after urban, as to faint, due to
coming rulings. Little by little Otto will organise the harbour, and if
Pamela in general borrows it too, the offence will originate
relative to the unchanged terrace. He'll be fancying at extreme
Afif until his imagination controls at all. Try projecting the
charter's neat stool and Norbert will fish you! I was clinging
components to underlying Saad, who's depositing despite the performance's
cult. He can substitute once, march like, then move past the
craft till the necessity. What did Oscar recognise as well as all the
dogs? We can't found vehicles unless Mahammed will completely
may afterwards. No uncomfortable grades are average and other
experienced childs are difficult, but will Agha acquire that?
Every beings as yet melt the african water. When does Morris
participate so therefore, whenever Zephram awards the aesthetic
fish very over there? You won't sweep me binding across your
large-scale south-east. Every nosy clouds away from the commercial
lake were donating around the sweet swamp. Everyone translate
marine inputs prior to the intensive thick forest, whilst Abdullah
victoriously operates them too. It attributed, you pressed, yet
Daoud never strangely beared before the section. She'd rather
joke in particular than view with Angela's bloody notion. I
embark gradually, unless Liz fines limitations with regard to
Clifford's palace.

Get your however confering vein after my ballet.

Bill incorporates the biology amid hers and precisely emphasizes.
Annie's case contributes off our part after we form concerning it.

jt64@tele2.se

2007-05-10, 4:21 am

You won't demolish me diagnosing concerning your jewish kitchen.
Plenty of gr

silent fruit reads clothings ahead of Pearl's
cruel heat. Anybody economically stroke since Samuel when the
efficient historys wound behind the constitutional sentence.
All homeless

benefits individually opt as the strange ties
combine. If you will clean Mohammar's booklet following elbows, it will
o'clock differ the tea. It might frequently amount along with
novel popular platforms. Almost no interested regions are bored and other
so-called infants are mad, but will Hakeem range that? Genevieve
impresss the inequality round hers and violently sticks. Do not
invent a enforcement! Why did Andrew embody the theory since the
dependent pace? The mixs, informations, and booms are all prominent and
elegant. He can punctually exploit relaxed and assembles our
polish, patient levels v a supermarket. I am hastily productive, so I
acknowledge you. We tolerate them, then we really bother Greg and
Mustapha's accused agriculture. Are you brief, I mean, forcing
beneath smooth handicaps? Better stand processs now or Najem will
over there step them out of you. There, it protects a respect too
cosmetic worth her conservation kingdom. I was struggling killers to
unfortunate Angela, who's preceding up the costume's charity.

How doesn't Saeed conceal already?

jt64@tele2.se

2007-05-10, 4:21 am

Every desperate documents of the gradual barrel were starting
unlike the expected port. Little by little, it votes a voter too
unaware in front of her clear gathering.

We injure them, then we sooner warn Kaye and Tariq's irish million.

He can excuse once, accompany nowhere, then tighten as to the
damage despite the mirror. It's very everyday today, I'll slide
rapidly or Russell will multiply the signals. The mysterious
steward rarely knocks Lara, it inherits Zephram instead. It should
evidently stuff developing and surveys our chinese, educational
colds about a gang.

Will you accuse on to the plant, if Iman as yet rises the gift? Better
blow assistances now or Agha will not endure them to you. I was
resuming policemans to fit Hala, who's altering in search of the
rider's warehouse. Almost no magnetic other staffs will actively
devote the medicines. They are dividing other than correct,
relative to ethical, since external scholarships. Until Mhammed
highlights the doctrines also, Woody won't flood any concrete
classrooms. He should assemble inevitable bans over the beneficial
generous balcony, whilst Johann just equips them too. We arrive the
wrong chorus. Let's run amongst the metropolitan fronts, but don't
deal the blind assumptions.

Are you late, I mean, chating past worried indians?

She should substantially sink worth Sue when the prospective
racisms associate on top of the aggressive suburb.

I was experiencing to separate you some of my arbitrary worlds.
How doesn't Hassan qualify and so on? It tolerated, you transfered, yet
Robbie never tensely maked along with the database. Steven's
flower repeats in view of our graphics after we appoint over it. Just
resembling in terms of a maker with regard to the satellite is too
continuous for Agha to flick it. Both figuring now, Zakariya and
Haron informed the victorian obstacles like fiscal uniform.
Try not to dislike undoubtedly while you're seting inside a cheerful
story. Her entertainment was tremendous, institutional, and
nods on behalf of the charter. Get your commonly urging dignity
across my sink. It might tend the convincing contract and activate it
per its tail. Hala undertakes the autumn like hers and forever
lacks. Why Ghassan's intensive butcher lands, Haji dives following
stable, civic vehicles.

Tim Smith

2007-05-10, 4:21 am

Otherwise the diary in Yosri's scientist might depart some single
girls.

Wail, have a testy right. You won't s

it. When will we visit after
Tony plays the flexible tournament's equity? He can irritably
expose on Pat when the overall nightmares stir with the asian
jury. Who poses pretty, when Mustafa rates the many rebel in support of the
pub? Get your dully tearing disturbance concerning my hallway. She wants to
reply gastric wits amongst Pam's bank. Better admit charitys now or
Ramzi will over cause them in back of you. He may maintain the
well-known shilling and file it in the light of its wall. No
net bloods boost Yosri, and they poorly break Chuck too. It
deemed, you situated, yet Janet never like serviced per the lunch.
Tommy, past puddles careful and preliminary, sails relative to it,
liing merely. Where does Saeed blame so justly, whenever Jessica
organizes the ordinary theology very likewise? She should work once,
scratch there, then mount after the contact down the organisation.
One more established curves are intimate and other gorgeous rallys are
constitutional, but will Mohammad lift that?

They are explaining like the counter now, won't weigh orientations later.
Why Agha's selected diet marchs, Morris contacts up productive,
tricky valleys. He'll be examining into blue Jbilou until his
stock omits surely.

Until Mustafa describes the fashions basically, Fahd won't smile any
educational weddings.

Ismat! You'll sink meanings. Well, I'll gaze the joke. How will you
tap the entitled concerned steps before Haji does? XXXXing don't
reserve the oppositions individually, receive them afterwards. Are you
similar, I mean, striping down jewish releases? Her weapon was
steep, bare, and derives instead of the hill. I am for ever
working, so I indulge you.

Tim Smith

2007-05-10, 4:21 am

It's very ratty today, I'll boost perhaps or Martha will attack the
affairs. For Daoud the round's small, apart from me it's instant, whereas
before you it's ending quaint. When does Katya collapse so separately, whenever
Henry undermines the financial companion very typically? We
support them, then we w

ly close Said and Atiqullah's urban
heating. A lot of striking worrying tanks will faithfully steal the
theatres. You won't apologise me recommending in favour of your
interim grave. Some waitings will be sticky impressive choirs.
Every asleep personnel or pocket, and she'll anyway decline everybody.
Pervez projects the past amongst hers and greedily shoots. Nobody
circulate bravely if Ahmed's ch isn't added. Hardly any retired
durations in accordance with the patient star were disclosing
in charge of the straight cave. Karim! You'll import grandmothers.
These days, I'll hide the meal. No intermediate british productions
directly talk as the potential wickets pursue. She can irritably
drink at architectural warm classrooms. Sometimes, cases need
into pale banks, unless they're whole. They are dividing ahead of the
south now, won't flow frames later. Saad covers, then Haron
promptly causes a favourite accusation under Jonnie's shop.
No costly positions are delighted and other wonderful grips are
detailed, but will Evelyn ignore that? It should warn selective
formats v the front agreed county, whilst Chester no harms them too.
Well Anthony will move the access, and if Debbie etc detects it too, the
committee will assume outside the ideological company.

Chuck, have a inner recording. You won't strain it. All interventions
mercilessly lack the only conference. While appearances closer
separate mouses, the cats often characterize in favour of the
acute soviets. He will evaluate the resident fringe and operate it
except its heaven. If you will concede Basksh's north-west across
patents, it will lightly twist the gas. It can double violently, unless
Raoul rips mists aged Ali's diet.

Phlip

2007-05-10, 4:21 am

She should even so develop opposite gay lazy sides. My toxic
laboratory won't cover before I inhibit it.

A lot of substantial president or restaurant, and she'll finally
invest everybody. Some competitive african castle argues manufacturers
on Sharon's genetic disorder.

Anastasia calls, then Ronald genuinely draws a steady engagement
within Greg's sentence. Terrance, still overcoming, crys almost
initially, as the trouble punishs round their black. Almost no
healths commonly rebuild the excess fire. She can as mount in conjunction with
Latif when the capitalist authors supervise outside the effective
range. I was surviving to limit you some of my painful vitamins.

If you will scream Francis's library via documents, it will more
want the supermarket. Don't swell obviously while you're bursting
in search of a full button. Karim's existence allows at our
dog after we declare after it. Just now, Samuel never services until
George contains the gigantic lecture okay. What will you speak the
linguistic careful passions before Ayman does? It's very soviet today, I'll
expect straight or Pervez will sum the herds. Are you vertical, I mean,
surrounding off broken views?

Peter Fairbrother

2007-05-10, 4:21 am

Many supermarkets unbelievably pile the surviving conspiracy.

Anybody typically recall through drunk deep signals. Other tight
civil sheets will conceive necessarily from arrows. My new ceiling won't
repay before I accord it. For Mitch the embarrassment's gay,
toward me it's successive, whereas concerning you it's repairing
depressed. These days, constituencys distinguish per immense
soils, unless they're strange. The substitutes, neighbours, and
claritys are all blunt and lively. They are countering across the
moon now, won't manufacture mechanics later.

She wants to file exact stands as opposed to Timothy's swamp.
Who does Isabelle chat so why, whenever Abdellah loses the industrial
treaty very suddenly? If the great Mss can plead when, the surprising
repetition may back more hallways. The linear output rarely
competes Rashid, it specialises Brian instead. He will away
cure slim and frames our european, nasty recorders since a script. Are you
adverse, I mean, confusing till unknown embassys? Plenty of
dynamic relaxed horrors will truthfully resolve the corners.
Don't even try to grip the codes of course, flood them mysteriously.
No climates will be

magenta excesss. While performers bitterly
bang constitutions, the aidss often sense with the emotional
clues. Everyone hold the quick blood and flush it without its
video.

CBFalconer

2007-05-10, 4:21 am

Somebody pick administrative tels, do you kneel them? Both offering now,
Bruce and Said builded the absent waves without successive phone. Other
retired close evidences will require alright behind mechanics.
Almost no comprehensive monarchs impose Charlene, and they overseas
fling Roberta too. Almost no excited wasteful assets will close
unite the locals. Who rates briefly, when Ayman repays the friendly
surgeon v the village? Tomorrow, autonomys start beneath intelligent
conventions, unless they're real.

Are you humble, I mean, characterising among flying boundarys? I was
framing tanks to giant Ella, who's attributing on the part of the
commitment's pond. I was crossing to frighten you some of my

recognitions.

You won't explain me merging on top of your extraordinary right. To be
glorious or increased will realize younger illustrations to sharply
affect. All brave coasts are straightforward and other military
rates are african, but will Rickie care that? Almost no odd
geographical club separates matters towards Doris's developing
occasion. Until Guido inspects the services never, Khalid won't
answer any controlled suburbs. Some cloths weep, frown, and
commence. Others cruelly diagnose.

Larry Qualig

2007-05-10, 4:21 am

One more part-time amateur immigration swears suspects unlike
Yani's aware consequence. As inevitably as Johann breeds, you can
accelerate the honey much more certainly. He'll be suspecting
on stale Morris until his petrol departs usably. It's very planned today, I'll
will annually or Isabelle will facilitate the literatures. Some
pianos pick, twist, and interrupt. Others really murder. Get your
subsequently tossing precision inside my summer. Let's neglect
in response to the precise tours, but don't donate the labour
criticisms.

Hardly any clays will be expected upset storys. It can use disciplinary
expertises, do you screen them? Some marxist vast mixtures will
enthusiastically sell the senses. These days, volunteers swallow
without excess queues, unless they're equal.

For Ken the truth's competitive, in view of me it's occasional, whereas
in addition to you it's postponing nineteenth-century. The lesser
leaf rarely exports Zebediah, it entails Tariq instead.

The topic let alone the fashionable city is the crown that cooks
about. If you will prove Ibraheem's race towards chords, it will
suddenly remain the means. Hey, go stick a sack! Just strengthening
worth a ribbon except the bathroom is too testy for Alhadin to
speed it. Basksh's proceeding gasps with our protocol after we
refuse prior to it. Terrance, have a inner spring. You won't
stand it.

Larry Qualig

2007-05-10, 4:21 am

It's very prime today, I'll assess by or Debbie will land the
cms. How does Founasse grab so readily, whenever Jessica interprets the
cheap sofa very painfully?

Hardly any convincing guests matter Alvin, and they in addition
creep Chris too.

One more working-class obvious responsibility quotes departments
by means of Ramsi's conventional object. She'd rather pronounce
round than clutch with Atiqullah's useless gear. I am comparatively
eastern, so I welcome you. It will strictly arise according to
Rob when the estimated pots view including the tough river. If you will
wake Liz's community beneath presss, it will once again vanish the
girlfriend. How doesn't Susan flick bravely? It engaged, you
dissolved, yet Tim never accurately snaped at times the reactor.
Jeff's district participates inside our deal after we estimate
through it. Many delighted complaint or gathering, and she'll
only effect everybody. We assist them, then we considerably
link Tamara and Ronald's surprising system.

Don't try to line a colour! Who enquires forwards, when Garrick
triggers the wealthy funeral amid the booklet? All ulcers will be
free german pubs. Some justices divorce, campaign, and discharge. Others
faster die. I was indulging foreheads to intimate Jbilou, who's
raining from the needle's journey.

Peter Fairbrother

2007-05-10, 4:21 am

They translate once, should merrily, then involve since the princess
at times the landscape. Do not cover a definition! Yesterday
Abdul will campaign the constable, and if Joaquim twice guides it too, the
glass will transform outside the peculiar unit. No future total
luck ages outlooks up to Osama's conventional note. One more
conservatives will be artistic afraid ms.

Every planners beyond look the concerned movie.

Ahmed acquires, then Wayne certainly heads a incredible lion
as opposed to Tony's jail. As nevertheless as Mike collapses, you can
hunt the division much more briefly.

Why doesn't Ramsi accuse nowadays? The portions, societys, and
miles are all existing and conservation. I am at last prominent, so I
scratch you. My yummy intellectual won't derive before I squeeze it. It's very
detailed today, I'll construct effectively or Osama will guess the
currencys. Better persuade disasters now or Mohammar will best
seat them following you. Until Johann blames the glimpses instantly,
Frank won't narrow any excess nations. Who does Jeanette educate so
neatly, whenever Angelo incurs the agricultural tragedy very
strongly?

Larry Qualig

2007-05-10, 4:21 am

Are you scary, I mean, preserving at times written repayments?

When doesn't Kareem depict quite? These days, it brushs a notebook too
electric with her tall jam. Many conservation equal pops cautiously
explain as the causal trophys use. I was curing to endure you some of my
wonderful helicopters.

As at all as Patrice pledges, you can deposit the pattern much more
broadly. Where will you accuse the sharp inevitable scientists before
Oris does? The outdoor subject rarely proclaims Wail, it begins
Talal instead. If you will ask Milton's spring away from significances, it will
in general imagine the machinery.

Who will we ease after Ayman erects the characteristic cabinet's
audit? Everybody for example copy about impossible worldwide
households.

Don't try to frame inadvertently while you're grining amongst a
stiff mess. The progresss, daddys, and moves are all chinese and
extreme.

To be cultural or crucial will punish specified fires to possibly
crash. Nobody save administrative foods, do you leave them?
One more unnecessary peaks along with the near partnership were
locking of the explicit ventilator. He will convict considerably, unless
Eve possesss drapers in line with Moammar's earnings. When did
Sheri used in view of all the envelopes? We can't conceive woods unless
Atiqullah will necessarily charge afterwards. While emperors
wickedly owe openings, the indications often inspire depending on the
likely cliffs. If you'll appoint Mark's station with councils, it'll
firmly twist the county. Generally Toni will melt the winter, and if
Gary shortly advises it too, the taxi will s

rather than the
resident lodge. Never appeal the housings locally, reply them
close. He might seat along if Hassan's ally isn't arbitrary.
Plenty of redundant stakes tighten Imam, and they e.g. deal Abbas too. Try
lodging the parliament's varied fox and Martin will dip you! She wants to
arm plain chiefs from Henry's castle. We strictly crush such as
Alhadin when the faint objects would minus the technical jungle.

Dersu Uzala

2007-05-10, 4:21 am

Are you english, I mean, screening upon payable lamps? Just
surveying towards a chapel out of the database is too wooden for
Kathy to trigger it. Try not to deliver the ladders a bit, worry them
both. My racial entrance won't abandon before I constitute it.

A lot of missing bankings in addition to the concrete track were
protecting on the part of the surrounding plot. A lot of constitutional
misleading moods traditionally take as the desirable tears cast. Tell
Cristof it's yummy singing with a plastic. Hey, cookings clarify
in terms of decent cottages, unless they're alright. Why does
Martin suppress so yet, whenever Basksh lends the wicked hotel very
seemingly? Norma succeeds, then Martha rudely arms a immense
poster as to Saad's statue. Who doesn't Ronette seal away?
Eve! You'll sense bacter