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University Vocational Schools
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| Thomas Gagne 2005-03-28, 8:57 am |
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Eliot Miranda wrote:
>
>
<snip>
>
> Over the past two decades the university sector has become more
> vocational in its teaching. Alan Kay lambastes no less than Stanford
> university in his Croquet presentation for using Java for teaching. When
> I was teaching in London University in the early 90's much debate was
> between those that wanted to teach concepts and those that wanted to
> "provide marketable skills". Government, with pressure from industry
> (almost always short-sighted), sided with the vocationalists and good
> computer science teaching suffered.
>
I've heard that complaint a lot lately. I wonder if it has more to do
with the demand for "coders" than a demand for "computer scientists".
As long as government and business require unsophisticated programmers
for unsophisticated expectations vocational training is the most
efficient producer.
That kind of training is probably easily accomplished in a 2-year
program. Perhaps CS students should be able to attain masters degrees
in 4-years compared to their 2-year counterparts. Perhaps colleges and
universities could help make that differentiation by handing out
associates degrees for their vocational programs.
Little-to-no Smalltalk? Little-to-no Lisp? Less theory?
Congratulations, you've learned less and here's your
less-than-a-bachelor's degree.
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| Fernando 2005-03-28, 4:00 pm |
| On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 06:55:07 -0500, Thomas Gagne
<tgagne@wide-open-west.com> wrote:
>Little-to-no Smalltalk? Little-to-no Lisp? Less theory?
>Congratulations, you've learned less and here's your
>less-than-a-bachelor's degree.
I wonder if those would be able to compete against the folks in India
with a better background and less salaries...
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| Fernando wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 06:55:07 -0500, Thomas Gagne
> <tgagne@wide-open-west.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> I wonder if those would be able to compete against the folks in India
> with a better background and less salaries...
Even more worrying - what if those folks in India pick up and run with
Smalltalk/Lisp. Remember what happened to the western car industry when
Japan picked up TQM?
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| Bill Schwab 2005-03-28, 4:00 pm |
| Dan,
> Even more worrying - what if those folks in India pick up and run with
> Smalltalk/Lisp. Remember what happened to the western car industry when
> Japan picked up TQM?
Yes - US car makers got clobbered, and then improved their products in
response to the competition. Fair?
Whether it's better ways to build cars, or better ways to build
software, the more, the merrier :)
Bill
--
Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
bills@anest4.anest.ufl.edu
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| Günther Schmidt 2005-03-28, 4:00 pm |
| dan wrote:
> Fernando wrote:
>
Hi Dan,
let's do some Indian bashing here. When I started working as freelancer after a little while I was also worried that projects may be moved to India. Subsequently I had a look at what they produce in India, or are capable of producing, in short:
DO NOT WORRY ABOUT IT COMPETITION FROM INDIA, DON'T!
The quality what they deliver there is SO FAR BEHIND, just don't worry about it.
Guenther
[color=darkred]
>
>
>
> Even more worrying - what if those folks in India pick up and run with
> Smalltalk/Lisp. Remember what happened to the western car industry when
> Japan picked up TQM?
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| Mark Pirogovsky 2005-03-29, 4:00 am |
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Günther Schmidt wrote:
> dan wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Dan,
>
> let's do some Indian bashing here. When I started working as freelancer
> after a little while I was also worried that projects may be moved to
> India. Subsequently I had a look at what they produce in India, or are
> capable of producing, in short:
>
> DO NOT WORRY ABOUT IT COMPETITION FROM INDIA, DON'T!
>
> The quality what they deliver there is SO FAR BEHIND, just don't worry
> about it.
>
> Guenther
>
WE still have to worry and here is why:
In short sighted corporate accounting word nobody give a S. about
software quality. Everybody is concerned with the quarterly results.
And with that folks in India even with their zero quality software win
hands down with their fraction of the labor cost. The  thing --
those Corporate Execs will not be there when a true cost of outsoursing
will be calculated few years later, they will collect their "golden
parachutes" and move on to screw another company using the "labor cost
reduction" as their greatest achievement.
[color=darkred]
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| Chris Uppal 2005-03-29, 4:00 am |
| Günther Schmidt wrote:
> DO NOT WORRY ABOUT IT COMPETITION FROM INDIA, DON'T!
>
> The quality what they deliver there is SO FAR BEHIND, just don't worry
> about it.
Um, before this thread gets too unpleasantly racist[*]...
Can I remind people that:
a) this group has a genuinely international readership.
b) comp.lang.smalltalk.dolphin (which is where I am reading this) has
traditionally been a pleasant place, where such discussions are neither
relevant nor (in my opinion) welcome.
Thanks.
-- chris
([*] check my surname.)
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| israel 2005-03-29, 9:00 am |
| Fernando <frr@easyjob.net> writes:
>
> I wonder if those would be able to compete against the folks in India
> with a better background and less salaries...
Those who graduate from the elite IITs in India have a strong mathematical
and traditional computer _science_ background.
I suspect that they would dramatically outperform the vocationally trained.
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| Fernando 2005-03-29, 4:00 pm |
| On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:15:39 GMT, israel <rambam@bigpond.net.au>
wrote:
>
>Those who graduate from the elite IITs in India have a strong mathematical
>and traditional computer _science_ background.
Not just in India. Many developing countries have world class
colleges, such as Brasil or Chile.
So investing in a 'vocational' education, while living in the first
world, adn therefore lacking the competitve advantage of a low salary,
is a waste of time and money. I don't think that anyone with this sort
of knowledge will be able to compete in a global market anymore.
Anyway, this has become rather off topic...
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| Thomas Gagne 2005-03-29, 4:00 pm |
| Getting back on-topic...
Would there be value to having two separate degrees? Have too many
colleges become Java vocational schools? Are they learning Java or are
they supposed to be learning OO? If they're learning OO Java is not a
good place to do it. Python, Ruby, Smalltalk are better for learning
the disciplines of OO than Java can ever be with all its primitives,
iterators, and non-OO idioms.
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| Bob Nemec 2005-03-29, 4:00 pm |
| I would like to see a "Software Engineering" degree, vs. a "Computer
Science" degree.
Based on the resumes we get for our co-op program, the U. of Waterloo
computer science program no longer teaches the 'science' of computers. They
teach how to program... in Java. That's more or less it. Virtually no
Lisp, Prolog, Smalltalk, APL, etc.
And very little comp. sci. history; the OS course is on how Linux works, not
about *why* an OS does what it does (I learned OS theory from a historical
point of view; much better in my opinion).
No wonder Smalltalk has a hard time breaking through.
The state of computer science is disheartening.
--
Bob Nemec
Northwater Objects
"Thomas Gagne" <tgagne@wide-open-west.com> wrote in message
news:OY6dneR3Q4Tb79TfRVn-pA@wideopenwest.com...
> Getting back on-topic...
>
> Would there be value to having two separate degrees? Have too many
> colleges become Java vocational schools? Are they learning Java or are
> they supposed to be learning OO? If they're learning OO Java is not a
> good place to do it. Python, Ruby, Smalltalk are better for learning the
> disciplines of OO than Java can ever be with all its primitives,
> iterators, and non-OO idioms.
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| Bob Nemec wrote:
> I would like to see a "Software Engineering" degree, vs. a "Computer
> Science" degree. ... Based on the resumes we get for our co-op program, the U. of Waterloo
> computer science program no longer teaches the 'science' of computers.
I think we can compare this to giving vocational training
to people to become TV-repair -technicians, vs. teaching
others to become scientists studying super conductivity.
It seems so far that the technicians always vastly outnumber
the scientists.
-Panu Viljamaa
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| israel 2005-03-31, 8:58 am |
| panu <panu@nospam.com> writes:
> It seems so far that the technicians always vastly outnumber
> the scientists.
Seems to be true of most fields.
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