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| Author |
Parsing Smalltalk to java
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| I'm searching a programa to translate smalltalk to java or smalltalk to C#
Someone knows any.
Also i search a specification to the smalltalk sintax.
regards.
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| Jason Jones 2004-07-29, 3:58 pm |
| Check out http://www.missionsoft.com/stjvm.htm . Also, KSC has services -
http://www.ksc.com/services/migrationtable.htm.
"chete" <chete007@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2e3f205d.0407280731.7616427d@posting.google.com...
> I'm searching a programa to translate smalltalk to java or smalltalk to C#
>
> Someone knows any.
>
> Also i search a specification to the smalltalk sintax.
>
> regards.
| |
| Ian Upright 2004-07-30, 3:58 am |
| chete007@hotmail.com (chete) wrote:
>I'm searching a programa to translate smalltalk to java or smalltalk to C#
>
>Someone knows any.
>
>Also i search a specification to the smalltalk sintax.
>
>regards.
BTW, does anyone know of anything that will go the other way.. i.e. Java/C#
to Smalltalk?
Ian
---
http://www.upright.net/ian/
| |
| Matt Schumacker 2004-07-30, 8:56 am |
| chete007@hotmail.com (chete) wrote in message news:<2e3f205d.0407280731.7616427d@posting.google.com>...
> I'm searching a programa to translate smalltalk to java or smalltalk to C#
>
> Someone knows any.
>
> Also i search a specification to the smalltalk sintax.
>
> regards.
You can also try http:\\www.sync-sys.com and check out their SMT tool.
They are an IBM strategic partner for porting to Java.
| |
| James A. Robertson 2004-07-30, 8:56 pm |
| bearing in mind that a "port" from Smalltalk to Java will actually be
a rewrite. make sure you ask how much it will cost you to stand still
for a reproduction of the <system that already works> to get redone
for you. Then see if you can actually define a valid <business
rationale> for spending that money
On 30 Jul 2004 05:09:55 -0700, mschumacker@yahoo.com (Matt Schumacker)
wrote:
>chete007@hotmail.com (chete) wrote in message news:<2e3f205d.0407280731.7616427d@posting.google.com>...
>
>You can also try http:\\www.sync-sys.com and check out their SMT tool.
> They are an IBM strategic partner for porting to Java.
<Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
| |
| Victor 2004-07-31, 3:56 am |
| Jim,
> ...Then see if you can actually define a valid <business
> rationale> for spending that money
I don't know Matt. However, my guess is that if he is here, he is most
likely a developer, rather than a high level manager. If this is the case,
it is not up to him to make the kind of decision you are implying here. He
just has to execute it.
What would be valuable is to reach the decision-makers in all the companies
that are running away from ST into Java. There are quite a few of these,
regrettably. My question is: what is the ST community doing to reach them?
Victor
=====================================
"James A. Robertson" <jarober@gosmalltalk.com> wrote in message
news:nnqlg0dqo0f473nv8sevoe6um3ses3mgq4@
4ax.com...
> bearing in mind that a "port" from Smalltalk to Java will actually be
> a rewrite. make sure you ask how much it will cost you to stand still
> for a reproduction of the <system that already works> to get redone
> for you. Then see if you can actually define a valid <business
> rationale> for spending that money
>
>
>
> On 30 Jul 2004 05:09:55 -0700, mschumacker@yahoo.com (Matt Schumacker)
> wrote:
>
news:<2e3f205d.0407280731.7616427d@posting.google.com>...[color=darkred]
C#[color=darkred]
>
> <Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
> James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk
> http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
| |
| Alan Wostenberg 2004-07-31, 3:57 pm |
|
Victor wrote:
> Jim,
>
>
>
>
> I don't know Matt. However, my guess is that if he is here, he is most
> likely a developer, rather than a high level manager. If this is the case,
> it is not up to him to make the kind of decision you are implying here. He
> just has to execute it.
He may not be a decision maker, but could be an influencer.
Decision makers at that level take input from trusted sources,
be it line managers or respected developers.
> What would be valuable is to reach the decision-makers in all the companies
> that are running away from ST into Java. There are quite a few of these,
> regrettably. My question is: what is the ST community doing to reach them?
Either become a decision maker or become a credible influencer --
thought leaders can be at any level in the organization. Win the trust
in small ways, and when the big rewrite question comes up, know it is in
response to some problem. Managers decide to rewrite the way an animal
"chooses" to escape a trap by chewing off it's leg. It's a desparate
choice. If rewrite is the solution, what was the problem?
Staffing? Vendor viability? Unreliable or brittle Smalltalk application?
Solve that root cause, which is probably more about trust and track
record, than Smalltalk. Don't people more often choose who to believe,
than what to believe?
| |
| Victor 2004-07-31, 3:57 pm |
| > .... Don't people more often choose who to believe,
> than what to believe?
There are many mechanisms people use for decision making. Some are
rational, some are not. Marketing has a lot to do with it. As of now I am
aware of three insurance companies and also other companies considering
moving away from ST.
One thing that could be done is a study to find the root causes of such a
move.
I find it interesting that IBM, the owner of one of the big STs, has
hundreds of job openings, but not a single one requires ST. For a long
while Cincom didn't have openings either, or just small pickings.
Most STers tend to be credible influencers. It seems like that's not
enough.
Well, let's hope from somewhere will come the light.
Victor
"Alan Wostenberg" <awostenbergNospam@psalmweaver.com> wrote in message
news:410BCE1A.50004@psalmweaver.com...
>
>
> Victor wrote:
case,[color=darkred]
He[color=darkred]
>
> He may not be a decision maker, but could be an influencer.
> Decision makers at that level take input from trusted sources,
> be it line managers or respected developers.
>
companies[color=darkred]
these,[color=darkred]
them?[color=darkred]
>
> Either become a decision maker or become a credible influencer --
> thought leaders can be at any level in the organization. Win the trust
> in small ways, and when the big rewrite question comes up, know it is in
> response to some problem. Managers decide to rewrite the way an animal
> "chooses" to escape a trap by chewing off it's leg. It's a desparate
> choice. If rewrite is the solution, what was the problem?
>
> Staffing? Vendor viability? Unreliable or brittle Smalltalk application?
> Solve that root cause, which is probably more about trust and track
> record, than Smalltalk. Don't people more often choose who to believe,
> than what to believe?
>
| |
| Andre Schnoor 2004-08-03, 9:10 am |
| > > What would be valuable is to reach the decision-makers in all the
companies
these,[color=darkred]
them?[color=darkred]
>
> Either become a decision maker or become a credible influencer --
> thought leaders can be at any level in the organization. Win the trust
> in small ways, and when the big rewrite question comes up, know it is in
> response to some problem.
> Managers decide to rewrite the way an animal
> "chooses" to escape a trap by chewing off it's leg. It's a desparate
> choice ...
Alan, this is worth being cited on each and every Smalltalk-related site.
You put it perfectly.
I'm currently in the process of starting a new company and really enjoy the
luxurious situation that all decisions are solely mine. Originally, my plan
was to run the entire company exclusively on Smalltalk (VisualWorks in
particular) - the products, the website, the support, the community, the
business administration, the CRM, etc. (BTW the products have nothing to do
with IT/software/programming).
In addition to my own preference for ST, I also thought of it as kind of a
proof of concept. Wouldn't it be nice to say "This company is based 100% on
Smalltalk and it's successful thanks to Smalltalk." (well, *should* it be
successful).
However, I'm building the website based on PHP / Postgres now, simply
because there are so many ready to run building blocks available that is
saves me at least a month of work. I've had a look at Smalltalk Server Pages
(SSP) and liked it very much. My decision was *not* based on technological
questions. It was a question of time to market and compatibility with
existing building blocks (i.e. caching template engines, bulletin boards,
....). Thank God, I didn't have to use Java.
I'm sure a lot of managers know about the technological superiority of ST
and their decision to use something else is much like Alan put it. If 90% of
your developers talk Java and 90% of your software is Java, then porting the
remaining 10% of ST is probably a reasonable decision (depending on what
kind of business your are running and how tightly the integration of those
components is). IMO, porting 100% ST to Java is just wasted money.
Andre
| |
| Matt Schumacker 2004-08-03, 9:10 am |
| "Victor" <vmgoldberg__NO-_*SPAM*_-PLEASE@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<5aSOc.4136$Jp6.2810@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
First of all, the main reason that I posted was to give the original
poster the information he was looking for, a port from Smalltalk to
Java. I know Synchrony Systems and that they are a strategic partner
of IBM, especially with the port to Java.
And yes, I and a developer who has been working in Smalltalk for over
12 years with many various companies but who has recently moved into
C#. Let's face it, IBM doesn't care about Smalltalk any more and with
that, the bigger companies are leaving Smalltalk also. Many of the
Smalltalk positions out there are either porting to something else, or
maintaining the Smalltalk app while it is rewritten into something
else.
I loved Smalltalk and still think nothing is better, but unfortunately
big companies just don't think the same and aren't willing to bet a
big system on it anymore.
On a positive note, I recently attended a conference where Bob Martin
from Object Mentor was speaking of Agile. One of the items that he
mentioned is that he can see a 'possible' resurgence in Smalltalk due
to its good fit with agile development. I hope so.
Matt
| |
|
| I also happen to know of a couple of companies in the NYC are that are
porting from Java to C# and I'm sure that there are a good number
following suit. There are many managers that make decisions without
any real compelling business reason.
-Charles
"Victor" <vmgoldberg__NO-_*SPAM*_-PLEASE@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<5aSOc.4136$Jp6.2810@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...[color=darkred]
>
> There are many mechanisms people use for decision making. Some are
> rational, some are not. Marketing has a lot to do with it. As of now I am
> aware of three insurance companies and also other companies considering
> moving away from ST.
>
> One thing that could be done is a study to find the root causes of such a
> move.
>
> I find it interesting that IBM, the owner of one of the big STs, has
> hundreds of job openings, but not a single one requires ST. For a long
> while Cincom didn't have openings either, or just small pickings.
>
> Most STers tend to be credible influencers. It seems like that's not
> enough.
>
> Well, let's hope from somewhere will come the light.
>
> Victor
>
>
>
> "Alan Wostenberg" <awostenbergNospam@psalmweaver.com> wrote in message
> news:410BCE1A.50004@psalmweaver.com...
> case,
> He
> companies
> these,
> them?
| |
| Eliot Miranda 2004-08-03, 9:10 am |
|
Matt Schumacker wrote:
> "Victor" <vmgoldberg__NO-_*SPAM*_-PLEASE@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<5aSOc.4136$Jp6.2810@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
>
> First of all, the main reason that I posted was to give the original
> poster the information he was looking for, a port from Smalltalk to
> Java. I know Synchrony Systems and that they are a strategic partner
> of IBM, especially with the port to Java.
>
> And yes, I and a developer who has been working in Smalltalk for over
> 12 years with many various companies but who has recently moved into
> C#. Let's face it, IBM doesn't care about Smalltalk any more and with
> that, the bigger companies are leaving Smalltalk also. Many of the
> Smalltalk positions out there are either porting to something else, or
> maintaining the Smalltalk app while it is rewritten into something
> else.
>
> I loved Smalltalk and still think nothing is better, but unfortunately
> big companies just don't think the same and aren't willing to bet a
> big system on it anymore.
That simply isn't true. JPMorganChase has recently recommitted to
VisualWorks. When the merger between JPMorgan and ChaseManhattan
happened there was concern that Smalltalk would be replaced by Java.
That didn't happen and recent job postings show that JPMC are expanding
their Smalltalk operations. JPMC is one amongst a good number of very
large, very successful companies who have strategic business
applications written in VisualWorks, and we have a number of new
customers who are experiencing rapid growth and success (e.g. see the
Quallaby press release).
In fact, we're seeing few signs of existing customers moving away from
Smalltalk, and one that shall remain nameless that recently considered
moving to .Net has abandoned the move. Further Cincom's annual
Smalltalk revenues are growing by around 10% per annum. That's hardly
sign of companies moving away.
I'd say more but I'm not sure who we can talk about.
> On a positive note, I recently attended a conference where Bob Martin
> from Object Mentor was speaking of Agile. One of the items that he
> mentioned is that he can see a 'possible' resurgence in Smalltalk due
> to its good fit with agile development. I hope so.
I don't see a resurgence. Over the past four years (Cincom bought
VisualWorks in September of 1999) I've seen steady growth. If there was
a resurgence for VisualWorks it was after the first few Cincom releases.
>
> Matt
--
_______________,,,^..^,,,____________________________
Eliot Miranda Smalltalk - Scene not herd
| |
| Paul McDonough 2004-08-03, 4:06 pm |
| Eliot Miranda <eliotm@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<2yyPc.5657$AY5.1086@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>...
> Matt Schumacker wrote:
>
> That simply isn't true. JPMorganChase has recently recommitted to
> VisualWorks. When the merger between JPMorgan and ChaseManhattan
> happened there was concern that Smalltalk would be replaced by Java.
> That didn't happen and recent job postings show that JPMC are expanding
> their Smalltalk operations. JPMC is one amongst a good number of very
> large, very successful companies who have strategic business
> applications written in VisualWorks, and we have a number of new
> customers who are experiencing rapid growth and success (e.g. see the
> Quallaby press release).
A major company Eliot didn't mention has chosen to make a long term
commitment to a new Smalltalk project, which commenced in 2004.
Considering the budget already allocated and being spent (an eight
figure number), I'd say they're serious about Smalltalking.
> In fact, we're seeing few signs of existing customers moving away from
> Smalltalk, and one that shall remain nameless that recently considered
> moving to .Net has abandoned the move. Further Cincom's annual
> Smalltalk revenues are growing by around 10% per annum. That's hardly
> sign of companies moving away.
>
> I'd say more but I'm not sure who we can talk about.
>
>
> I don't see a resurgence. Over the past four years (Cincom bought
> VisualWorks in September of 1999) I've seen steady growth. If there was
> a resurgence for VisualWorks it was after the first few Cincom releases.
Quite right. The big downdraft followed the <insert negative
superlatives here> ParcPlace management decisions of 1997, when
rational customers had every reason to doubt the future of the product
line. After 1999~2000 or so, when the trade-rag crowd realized that
Java per se can't magically induce the production of high quality
software (surprise!!), I've seen ongoing steady growth in the number
of corporate Smalltalk projects. Of course my personal experience
isn't necessarily representative of the industry, but I've been around
enough to have more than a couple data points.
Cincom's strong commitment to developing their product lines has been
crucial, especially their nimbleness in moving into the world of
networked applications. Give marks to new vendors such as Object Arts
and community efforts like Camp Smalltalk as well.
Ease of deployment, imho, is the place where Smalltalk vendors might
best focus to continue to exploit their advantages in the marketplace.
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