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Re: SWI Prolog Sudoku
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| pineapple.link@yahoo.com 2007-08-09, 8:05 am |
| > It looks strange to me that someone asks you to write a 9*9 Sudoku
> solver without doing some simpler exercises before...
He said the 9x9 sudoku was for a final project, so there seems nothing
strange there.
What looks strange to me is that the college generation of today
thinks little to nothing about learning something on their own, and
instead "learns" by consulting the web and downloading whatever quick
solution they can find. If it doesn't work they then complain there
is an error. Meanwhile, they have learned nothing, but I suppose the
bigger problem is that they don't even want to learn or care about
learning - in fact their goal was never to learn in the first place.
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| On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 03:46:17 -0700, pineapple.link@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>He said the 9x9 sudoku was for a final project, so there seems nothing
>strange there.
>
>What looks strange to me is that the college generation of today
>thinks little to nothing about learning something on their own, and
>instead "learns" by consulting the web and downloading whatever quick
>solution they can find. If it doesn't work they then complain there
>is an error. Meanwhile, they have learned nothing, but I suppose the
>bigger problem is that they don't even want to learn or care about
>learning - in fact their goal was never to learn in the first place.
>
Their only goal is to get the diploma.
A.L.
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| Steffen Schwigon 2007-08-09, 7:10 pm |
| A.L. <fela@2005.com> writes:
> On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 03:46:17 -0700, pineapple.link@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
> Their only goal is to get the diploma.
Which is a very negative view of the world.
Although I sometimes feel similar, I don't believe it really maps to
the reality. It more sounds of a generation-specific different view
similar to the "bad Rock'n'Roll" view of the 50-ies or whatever other
way a generation conflict (which is mostly just a generation
misunderstanding) manifests.
To give a positive view of that: in our world today a lot of problems
are already solved and it can be a very important skill in the future
to quickly find an already existing solution.
Only by that the next generation will be able to solve *new* problems,
just by *not* spending their time solving Sudokus.
If you were forced to understand transistors before you used a
computer you never had got enough time to learn logical languages.
Basically I understand your concern, because they have given an
exercice, exactly because they wanted to learn programming and/or
prolog. I just disagree to derive an general apocalyptic "all youth
never wants to learn" opinion from that.
Steffen
--
Steffen Schwigon <schwigon@webit.de>
Dresden Perl Mongers <http://dresden-pm.org/>
Deutscher Perl-Workshop <http://www.perl-workshop.de/>
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| On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 16:19:07 +0200, Steffen Schwigon
<schwigon@webit.de> wrote:
>
>Basically I understand your concern, because they have given an
>exercice, exactly because they wanted to learn programming and/or
>prolog. I just disagree to derive an general apocalyptic "all youth
>never wants to learn" opinion from that.
>
>Steffen
Generally, disagree with all what you write. I spent 10 years (plus
minus) as professor at two US universities. I voluntarily left the
system. I was sued twice for bad grades, was getting threatening
telephone calls ("we know the school your kids are attending"), and
finally, my friend and coworker was shot and killed in the classroom
by student who flunked the exam.
In the meantime complains to the dean that I am lousy teacher ("you
have to teach me, if I flunked, this is your fault and you should
return the monies I paid for your course, even if I was coming to the
classroom and listening iPod all the time") and that I am teaching
them wrong things ("We should study Numerical Recipes instead some
sh... about differential equations" - this was about the course named
Advanced Numerical Methods). Cheating is the main problem, and
copying homeworks/projects from the Internet is everyday business.
If you think that Europe is different, then I congratulate your
optimism. I just came back from short trip to Europe. I visited my
Alma Mater (where I was also professor for quite a long time). There
is a huge board in Student's Center, all covered with notes like this:
"I will pay XXX for making my project on YYY, urgent please, name
address". Nobody cares.
A.L.
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| Steffen Schwigon 2007-08-09, 7:10 pm |
| A.L. <fela@2005.com> writes:
> On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 16:19:07 +0200, Steffen Schwigon
> <schwigon@webit.de> wrote:
>
> Generally, disagree with all what you write. I spent 10 years (plus
> minus) as professor at two US universities. I voluntarily left the
> system. [...]
Puh. Dark stories I only know from movies. Very pessimistic. Is it me
who has a wrong world view? I hope not. Things also go wrong here in
many areas, but not generally that dark and not large scale.
Steffen
--
Steffen Schwigon <schwigon@webit.de>
Dresden Perl Mongers <http://dresden-pm.org/>
Deutscher Perl-Workshop <http://www.perl-workshop.de/>
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| On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 17:55:56 +0200, Steffen Schwigon
<schwigon@webit.de> wrote:
>A.L. <fela@2005.com> writes:
>
>Puh. Dark stories I only know from movies. Very pessimistic. Is it me
>who has a wrong world view? I hope not. Things also go wrong here in
>many areas, but not generally that dark and not large scale.
I don't know. I don't paint GLOBAL picture, however something known as
"grade inflation" is global problem.
As I asid, I know some European countries directly and some other
indirectly (I have friends/family there). I am close to the condlusion
that the mentality of iPod generation is about the same everywhere -
quick reward with no effort.
The only problem in painting the picture is what you SEE versus what
you WANT to see.
But returning to tthe problem: a) Suddoku is good problem for leaning
Prolog, b) The guy should solve problem himself
A.L.
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| On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 19:25:49 +0100, Sandy
<junk.rubbish@alma-services.abel.co.uk> wrote:
>[ Print article using a fixed-width font (like Courier) 3746 words ]
>
>
Trashed without reading. NTG.
A.L.
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| On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 13:05:58 -0700, pineapple.link@yahoo.com wrote:
>Let's see, I have to write a term paper, so let me go off and find an
>"already existing solution." I have to take a test. Let me bring to
>the test books of "already existing solutions" to the problems.
>
>Under this paradigm, a "programmer" or "software engineer" could go
>through his entire University program and never once write a program,
>never implement a sort or a data structure. Amazing.
When I interview "computer engineer/scuentist" right out of college,
my standard first question is "what courses you had on (data
structures, algebra, numerical methods - each one is good enough).
Standard response in about 95% cases is "from the top of my head, I
cannot tell you". RIGHT OUT COLLEGE! . If he/she doesn't remember the
course NAME, how he /she remember course CONTENT?
If the answer to this question is not satisfactory, I have no more
questions.
A.L.
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| Steffen Schwigon 2007-08-10, 4:23 am |
| pineapple.link@yahoo.com writes:
>
> You've got to be kidding me.
>
> Let's see, I have to write a term paper, so let me go off and find an
> "already existing solution." I have to take a test. Let me bring to
> the test books of "already existing solutions" to the problems.
>
> Under this paradigm, a "programmer" or "software engineer" could go
> through his entire University program and never once write a
> program, never implement a sort or a data structure. Amazing.
Just to discuss on this particular point, there *are* people who can
not program a sort and can nevertheless be useful in a team of people
with distributed skills. Software development is not only programming.
You are (IMHO, please!) over-generalizing. You measure the next
generation on *your* skills.
I also said:
[color=darkred]
To explain this another way: Most people don't know how a radio
works. In times, when radio technology was new, it might have seemed
like it would be necessary to understand the future. A few generations
later it is obviously *not* necessary. You just hear the weather
report from it.
Maybe knowing how to program a "sort" *hinders* someone to come to new
ideas. And for that person it might be perfectly ok to just *use* an
existing sort, just to concentrate on his other, maybe new, ideas. And
if he really needs another sort, he teams up with someone who can
program it.
I see nothing *generally* wrong with your ironical described "amazing"
situation.
Take it evolutionary optimistic: a whole generation of stupid,
learn-resistent individuals will not be able to produce things like an
iPod. So the next after the next generation will not have the same
problem and can concentrate on learning again.
Steffen
--
Steffen Schwigon <schwigon@webit.de>
Dresden Perl Mongers <http://dresden-pm.org/>
Deutscher Perl-Workshop <http://www.perl-workshop.de/>
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| On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 05:20:54 -0700, pineapple.link@yahoo.com wrote:
><<When I interview "computer engineer/scuentist" right out of college,
>
>Kids are still hired in America to do computer work "right out of
>college?" It's not a joke question - I'm being serious.
Yes. We hire quite a lot. Usually this is "internship with option to
hire"
>I was under
>the impression that outsourcing of jobs, and "insourcing" of
>foreigners
Actually, this is the mixture. Not everything can be outsourced., and
teh opportunities fro "insourcing" are limited.
A.L.
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| Steffen Schwigon 2007-08-10, 7:08 pm |
| pineapple.link@yahoo.com writes:
> The things you say make you sound like you are from Mars.
Maybe just Europe. I don't know.
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