Fortran - Re: OT usage nitpick (was Re: Starting to doubt fortran)

Author

Re: OT usage nitpick (was Re: Starting to doubt fortran)

Louis Krupp

2007-03-26, 4:08 am

blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote:
> In article <1174836437.967730.281760@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
> Nomad.C@gmail.com <Nomad.C@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> English-language-usage nitpick: "Starting to doubt fortran" will be
> read by many native speakers as "starting to think fortran is no good",
> which I think isn't what you mean. I notice that many non-native
> speakers use "doubt" in contexts in which I think most native speakers
> (in the US anyway) would use "question". My guess is that this has
> something to do with imperfect translation from the speaker's first
> language (words don't always map one-to-one between languages).
> Anyway, "doubt" has a generally negative connotation (you think
> something is not true, or not good, or something) that's counter
> to what I think you meant to say here.
>
> OT and possibly unneeded, since you're getting answers to your
> actual question. But based on the subject line, I thought your
> post was going to be about how you thought Fortran really is dead,
> despite the claims of many in this newsgroup, and that there would
> then be a more-heat-than-light discussion.
>
> "For what it's worth", maybe.
>
> (I think I'd have used "should I learn fortran?" as a subject line.
> Again, for what it's worth.)
>

I'm not sure I'd say that Indians (who I've seen using "doubt" as a
synonym for "question") aren't native speakers. English might not be
their mother tongue (there are hundreds of languages there), but it's a
common language in India. People seem to learn English very early, only
with a slightly different vocabulary and verb preference than in Britain
or North America. I get the impression that Indians use English to
communicate with each other as much as with foreigners, and if they all
learn the same usage of "doubt," then the rest of us might as well get
used to it.

Louis

blmblm@myrealbox.com

2007-03-26, 4:08 am

In article <130erl8d2rdei2c@corp.supernews.com>,
Louis Krupp <lkrupp@pssw.nospam.com.invalid> wrote:
> blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote:

[ snip ]
[color=darkred]
> I'm not sure I'd say that Indians (who I've seen using "doubt" as a
> synonym for "question") aren't native speakers. English might not be
> their mother tongue (there are hundreds of languages there), but it's a
> common language in India. People seem to learn English very early, only
> with a slightly different vocabulary and verb preference than in Britain
> or North America. I get the impression that Indians use English to
> communicate with each other as much as with foreigners, and if they all
> learn the same usage of "doubt," then the rest of us might as well get
> used to it.

Oh dear. What, it wasn't enough to have the US and the UK be "two
countries separated by a common language"? we need more variants?
Sort of a :-).

I actually was thinking, in writing my post, that I wouldn't want to
make any claims about all native speakers of English, only for those
in the US, and to word things accordingly. I hope that came across.
I'm interested to learn that this use of "doubt" for "question" is
not limited to non-native speakers (which is mostly where I think
I've encountered it before). Perhaps it will be interesting to the
OP to hear how his/her words were interpreted by a native speaker
of another dialect. Or something.

--
B. L. Massingill
ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.

Louis Krupp

2007-03-26, 4:08 am

blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote:
<snip text from original, on-topic post>

>
> [ snip ]
>
>
> Oh dear. What, it wasn't enough to have the US and the UK be "two
> countries separated by a common language"? we need more variants?
> Sort of a :-).

If you look closely, it's more complicated than that. The Irish have
ways of saying things in English that I presume came from the Irish
language ("It's after being summer" or "He'd drink taken"). None of
this, as far as I know, correlates with the speaker's fluency in Irish.

The UK itself has its share of variations. The people north of the
Border at least have a name for their dialect, or dialects, or language;
exactly how to classify "Scots" is a political question as much as
anything else.

I took a class from a Scotsman years ago. I wouldn't have accused him
of not speaking perfect English, and I'm pretty sure he wasn't lecturing
us in Broad Scots, but his accent alone assured that I didn't understand
much of what he said. But then I never was much of a student...

Oh, and in Canada, you wait in a lineup, something which has a
completely different meaning here in the States.

Louis

blmblm@myrealbox.com

2007-03-26, 4:08 am

In article <130f1ah96m9p8d@corp.supernews.com>,
Louis Krupp <lkrupp@pssw.nospam.com.invalid> wrote:
> blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote:

[ snip ]

[ snip ]
[color=darkred]
>
> If you look closely, it's more complicated than that. The Irish have
> ways of saying things in English that I presume came from the Irish
> language ("It's after being summer" or "He'd drink taken"). None of
> this, as far as I know, correlates with the speaker's fluency in Irish.
>
> The UK itself has its share of variations. The people north of the
> Border at least have a name for their dialect, or dialects, or language;
> exactly how to classify "Scots" is a political question as much as
> anything else.

It is, isn't it? (More complicated than UK versus US.)

> I took a class from a Scotsman years ago. I wouldn't have accused him
> of not speaking perfect English, and I'm pretty sure he wasn't lecturing
> us in Broad Scots, but his accent alone assured that I didn't understand
> much of what he said. But then I never was much of a student...

Yeah. I spent a month in New Zealand, a long time ago, and I
remember frequently not being able to parse what I heard people say
into English I could recognize. I wasn't especially good at foreign
("other foreign"?) languages either. Maybe that's related.

> Oh, and in Canada, you wait in a lineup, something which has a
> completely different meaning here in the States.

Another nice example of the "two countries divided" adage.

It's kind of interesting to me that I've asked about this usage
("doubt" where a US English speaker -- did I say it right this
time? :-) -- would say "question") in other newsgroups (e.g.,
alt.usage.english), and I think you're the first person to say that
it's common usage in Indian speakers of English. This probably
means I should stop trying to educate the non-natives and accept it
as regional variation.

--
B. L. Massingill
ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.

Gary Scott

2007-03-26, 8:29 am

Nomad.C@gmail.com wrote:
> On 26 Mar, 10:02, blm...@myrealbox.com <blm...@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Its funny to see how this was posting was supposed to be a question on
> a computer language turned into a discussion on different variations
> of English around the globe.
>
It's more amazing how rare these off topic diversions are here.

--

Gary Scott
mailto:garylscott@sbcglobal dot net

Fortran Library: http://www.fortranlib.com

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it can't be done.

-- Henry Ford

blmblm@myrealbox.com

2007-03-26, 7:05 pm

In article <qNPNh.75$5e2.4@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net>,
Gary Scott <garylscott@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Nomad.C@gmail.com wrote:

[ snip ]

> It's more amazing how rare these off topic diversions are here.
>

I guess it is, isn't it? Thread drift is much more common in some of
the groups where I hang out, and that probably influenced my decision
to post something admittedly far off-topic for this group. My thinking
was that by changing the subject line and adding "OT" I wouldn't raise
any hackles. Tell me I'm wrong and I'll try to remember not to do it
again, though. It's just that "doubt" for "question" is a pet peeve
of mine -- though something I've learned from this discussion is that
maybe it shouldn't be.

I do kind of wonder how many other people looked at the subject line
and said "oh no, another flamefest ...." Maybe everyone else knows
Indian English better than I do!

--
B. L. Massingill
ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.

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