Fortran - O/T: Career advice

Author

O/T: Career advice

Random Programmer

2005-08-09, 5:04 pm

Hello, apologies for the off topic post, but it seems to me that this
place has a high number of people who are experienced when it comes to
working in industry.

I've been wanting to ask a couple of questions in an informal setting
(one where they're not compelled to give me an "official" line).
Perhaps it would help me keep an eye out for what skills to develop,
etc.

(1)
How important (honestly!) is being a teamplayer as a researcher? The
main reason why I did not get a job despite being an honours graduate
is because I was labelled as "not a teamplayer". I'm just not one of
those types of people who can enjoy a pint with co-workers at a nearby
bar or work in a team naturally without forcing myself to participate.

When I am faced with a difficult problem (within my area of expertise),
my first impulse is to go to a quiet place and think about it. Not
bounce ideas/thoughts off people. Of course, if it isn't my area of
expertise, I ask a Newsgroup :)

As a side question, if teamplay is important as a researcher, should I
try to "fake" it at an interview, or just be honest and say I prefer to
work alone?

(2)
What did you learn/get out of your PhD?

I know people have said that a PhD is a statement of your ability to do
research. But this really doesn't say much about what you developed
during the process. For example, not to come across as snooty, but many
of the skills I am using in my PhD, I already used in my earlier years
of education (such as ruminating on a problem).

I'm in the early stages of my research, so I can't answer my own
question much, except to say that my PhD has helped me discover a
subject which I am passionate about.

(3)
I really want to go to America once I graduate. Unfortunately, the
nature of my research experience is in politically sensitive areas.
Obviously, I am not an American citizen either. Should I give up any
hopes of continuing work in a field I am fascinated in? Am I likely to
even get offered a job because I am not an American citizen?

Thanks for any input you can offer.

Richard E Maine

2005-08-09, 5:04 pm

In article <1123620790.324415.114780@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"Random Programmer" <nonexistent2032@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> (1)
> How important (honestly!) is being a teamplayer as a researcher?

Hugely. I don't know how to state how hugely. A lot. That doesn't
mean you have to be intimate beer-drinking friends with everyone, but if
you can't work with people, its the wrong business (as are many).

Another critically important skill is the ability to communicate clearly
(not that I see obvious signs of problems with that in you, but I do in
many other people.) In undergrad school, I was one of those numerous
foolish undergrad engineering students who thought that all I needed was
to learn the technical material. I was wrong. But fortunately, and due
largely to help from other people, I got over that. I have since come to
the realization (far from unique to me) that it doesn't matter how good
my technical skills are if I can't communicate the results.

> main reason why I did not get a job despite being an honours graduate
> is because I was labelled as "not a teamplayer".

Hmm. I suppose that it isn't a coincidence that this was exactly my
thought when I made the negative comments about what my hiring
recommendations would be. It comes through.

I'm afraid that I'm not in a good position to counsel on how to
improve in that area. Such counseling is *WAY* outside my area
of expertise, but I wonder if s

ing such might be the best
solution. I say that as my best attempt at a helpful suggestion,
not as anything derogatory.

> As a side question, if teamplay is important as a researcher, should I
> try to "fake" it at an interview, or just be honest and say I prefer to
> work alone?

Don't try to fake anything. Ethical questions aside, it won't work.
The interview isn't the end of your job experience. You then have to
actually work wherever you are hired. Whatever your nature is, it
*WILL* come out.

> (2)
> What did you learn/get out of your PhD?

I didn't actually finish a thesis. (Could have done one, but well... my
life story isn't relevant). But the main thing I got out of my work
towards the PhD was an improved ability to abstract things and recognize
higher-level connections between things that aren't obviously related at
lower levels. This helps a lot when looking at new problems - to
recognize how they might be related to things that I know how to do.

I very rarely use the specific technical material taught in the more
abstract mathematical courses I took. Never once have I had to evaluate
a Radon-Nikodym (spelling? It's been a while. :-)) derivative or an Ito
integral in my work. But the ability to abstract things stuck and has
been of immeasurable use.

--
Richard Maine | Good judgment comes from experience;
email: my first.last at org.domain | experience comes from bad judgment.
org: nasa, domain: gov | -- Mark Twain

e p chandler

2005-08-09, 5:04 pm

Random Programmer wrote:

> Perhaps it would help me keep an eye out for what skills to develop,
> etc.

IMO the most important skill you can develop is the ability to
communicate well and express yourself clearly. Being able to explain
what you do to people without a background in your field is a sign of a
good researcher and teacher.

Thomas Koenig

2005-08-09, 10:01 pm

Random Programmer <nonexistent2032@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>How important (honestly!) is being a teamplayer as a researcher?

Very, very, very much.

The research problems that can be attacked by a single person
are fairly rare, and the results are probably not likely to be
very valuable.

>The
>main reason why I did not get a job despite being an honours graduate
>is because I was labelled as "not a teamplayer". I'm just not one of
>those types of people who can enjoy a pint with co-workers at a nearby
>bar

That doesn't matter a lot.

>or work in a team naturally without forcing myself to participate.

This sounds less good.

>When I am faced with a difficult problem (within my area of expertise),
>my first impulse is to go to a quiet place and think about it. Not
>bounce ideas/thoughts off people.

This isn't too bad, if you bounce your ideas off at the next meeting,
and you do your homework that you get assigned :-)

>As a side question, if teamplay is important as a researcher, should I
>try to "fake" it at an interview, or just be honest and say I prefer to
>work alone?

Try to learn teamwork, instead. Faking things at a job interview is almost
always a bad idea.

Random Programmer

2005-08-09, 10:01 pm

> In undergrad school, I was one of those numerous
> foolish undergrad engineering students who thought that all I needed was
> to learn the technical material.

Sounds like my mistake. I thought a first class honours would mean that
I wouldn't have a problem finding a job. I didn't bother with summer
internships, etc. which companies really value. In the end, I put all
my eggs in the wrong basket.

> I have since come to the realization (far from unique to me) that it doesn't > matter how good my technical skills are if I can't communicate the results.

What do you mean by communicate? I've noted several different types:
communication to the non-specialist, presentation skills, being
concise...

> Hmm. I suppose that it isn't a coincidence that this was exactly my
> thought when I made the negative comments about what my hiring
> recommendations would be. It comes through.

OMG, really? I'm really curious to learn how you could note this trait
about me from my mere written word. It would answer a lot of
frustrating questions, like how I seem to alienate people even in
writing :o

I think I'll go off and try speaking to my uni's careers advisor and
see how I can build on the teamwork skills...

Good thing I catched a mistaken assumption that it's OK being a lone
gunman if you're a researcher.

Random Programmer

2005-08-09, 10:01 pm

Hiya, do you think it written or spoken ability to communicate to the
non-specialist is more important? I think I'm OK with writing, I just
need to sit down for a while and distill things to a concise form with
easily recognisable analogues in every day life.

I know part of what you're getting at is that a good, basic
understanding of the subject helps you explain things clearly. However,
I've often felt that I know *what* to say, just not *how* to say it.
Especially when it comes to verbal communication. Do you have any
suggestions on how I can improve?

Random Programmer

2005-08-09, 10:01 pm

> The research problems that can be attacked by a single person
> are fairly rare, and the results are probably not likely to be
> very valuable.

Geez, man. Good thing I asked. I was under the mistaken impression that
it is OK for researchers to go about things solo.

> Try to learn teamwork, instead.

Do you have any suggestions that might help?

Also, I'm making an appointment with my uni's careers advisor as well.
I'll try to post some feedback on this thread in due course to help
other people in the same situation.

Duane Bozarth

2005-08-09, 10:01 pm

Random Programmer wrote:
>
> Hiya, do you think it written or spoken ability to communicate to the
> non-specialist is more important?

Yes. :) (But only half grinning...)

....
> I know part of what you're getting at is that a good, basic
> understanding of the subject helps you explain things clearly. However,
> I've often felt that I know *what* to say, just not *how* to say it.
> Especially when it comes to verbal communication. Do you have any
> suggestions on how I can improve?

Riddle for an answer..."How do you get to Carnegie Hall?"

(Since you're non-US, Carnegie Hall is the epitome in the USA of the
musical elite in New York---substitute your local equivalent).

Duane Bozarth

2005-08-09, 10:01 pm

Random Programmer wrote:
>
....
> Sounds like my mistake. I thought a first class honours would mean that
> I wouldn't have a problem finding a job. I didn't bother with summer
> internships, etc. which companies really value. In the end, I put all
> my eggs in the wrong basket.

No, you just didn't round out the basket. It's not that technical skill
is immaterial, it's that inter-personal and communication skills are
also vital.
>
....

> What do you mean by communicate? I've noted several different types:
> communication to the non-specialist, presentation skills, being
> concise...

All of the above...you'll be exposed to all those situations and more.

....

> I think I'll go off and try speaking to my uni's careers advisor and
> see how I can build on the teamwork skills...
>
> Good thing I catched a mistaken assumption that it's OK being a lone
> gunman if you're a researcher.

Good plan. <VERY> positive note that you're willing to listen and
follow up...

And, you may well find it's not as painful as you may think, besides!
:)

Random Programmer

2005-08-09, 10:01 pm

> Riddle for an answer..."How do you get to Carnegie Hall?"

Hiya Duane. 2 answers:
1) With money to buy a ticket;
2) With a good voice, or by being a virtuoso.

I suspect the answer you are prodding for is with #2, and by
practising.

BTW, don't you guys find the decorum, posturing and politics in teams
just tiresome and a waste of energy/effort?

Rich Townsend

2005-08-09, 10:01 pm

Random Programmer wrote:
>
>
> Geez, man. Good thing I asked. I was under the mistaken impression that
> it is OK for researchers to go about things solo.
>

Well, in some areas, its not quite that bad. When I was doing my PhD and
first post-doc in the UK, I worked almost completely on my own (for
reference, I'm an astrophysicist). I figured that I could just put my
head down and plough on through various reasearch topics. To a certain
extent, this worked; I managed on average to get a couple of
(sole-author) papers out per year, and judging by citation counts, they
haven't been completely worthless. In fact, during this solo episode of
my career, I developed many vital skills for self-starting and
independent research.

However, a couple of years ago, I moved to the USA to work with a
well-established colleague. Since then, my productivity has gone through
the roof. I am involved in around six different research areas, only one
of which I work on alone. All the others are collaborations both with
colleagues at my University, and with people all over the States and the
world. Through these collaborations, I've found areas where I can make a
significant contribution to a project with a modest outlay of my own
time. I obviously benefit from this, as do myy collaborators.
Ultimately, working as a part of a team is a win-win situation; it
allows you to leverage your own strengths, while relying on the
strengths of others to deal with issues that you yourself might get
bogged down in.

I'm not sure how much all of this might be relevant to you, since it
sounds like you'll be going into industry instead of academia. However,
the fundamental benefits of being a teamplayer remain the same. Not only
will your company like it, it will benefit *you* greatly by improving
your productivity. Indeed, when I worked briefly in industry after my
PhD, I found that my most successful projects came about from
collaborations with people from different departments in the company.

*This* is why you should develop teamwork skills -- beyond being a hoop
that a company will want you to jump through, they are of direct and
immense benefit to *you*.

cheers,

Rich

Brooks Moses

2005-08-09, 10:01 pm

Random Programmer wrote:
>
> Hiya Duane. 2 answers:
> 1) With money to buy a ticket;
> 2) With a good voice, or by being a virtuoso.
>
> I suspect the answer you are prodding for is with #2, and by
> practising.

I'd say it's an old joke, except it's not really a joke exactly, but in
any case it's a question-and-answer that's been around for a long time;
the stock answer is simply "Practice, practice, practice."

(Actually, I suppose it is a joke -- it's supposed to be told in a way
that implies that the person asking "How do you get to Carnegie Hall" is
asking for what streets to take.)

> BTW, don't you guys find the decorum, posturing and politics in teams
> just tiresome and a waste of energy/effort?

I find that the posturing and politics in teams are symptoms either of
problems among the team members or problems in how the team is managed;
the team that I am currently working in seems to have rather little of
either. I'm not sure what you mean by "decorum", exactly.

Insofar as a team ends up involving posturing and politics, though, I'd
agree that those are a waste of time. Sometimes it's still a valid
tradeoff to put up with them, though.

Interestingly, I always used to think that I was best at working on
projects by myself, and my Ph.D. research is in fact largely a solo
project with little interaction with others. After a number of years
working on the project, though, I've found that I have problems with
staying motivated -- whereas, on the team projects I have worked on
(which doesn't necessarily mean it's _all_ teamwork; mostly I've worked
on independent pieces that fit into the overall picture), the fact that
other people are looking forward to my results really helps keep me from
getting too bogged down. (And it's not just that they're looking
forward to my results; it's also that their results often help me with
my work, or at least are interesting and related to it, which boosts my
enthusiasm.) So now I'm starting to think that I actually do need to be
part of a research team for my own good, independent of all the external
reasons.

- Brooks

--
The "bmoses-nospam" address is valid; no unmunging needed.

Gib Bogle

2005-08-10, 4:01 am

Random Programmer wrote:

> As a side question, if teamplay is important as a researcher, should I
> try to "fake" it at an interview, or just be honest and say I prefer to
> work alone?

In interviews, as in life, sincerity is the key. Learn to fake that and
you've got it made.

Gib

Random Programmer

2005-08-10, 4:01 am

"Actually, I suppose it is a joke --..."

LOL, reminds me of the time when I was first introduced to the term
"elbow grease" during a workshop session. I asked where I could find it
:-/

"I'm not sure what you mean by "decorum", exactly."

For example, I often alienate friends because I hate sticking my neck
out for them. In my PhD office which I share with a bunch of other
researchers, there was a IT security breach. We know who was
responsible -- we trusted him and let him hang around the office.
Apparently he betrayed that trust and stole our passwords somehow. He
didn't appear to use the information in a malicious manner. One of the
guys just noticed that porn pages were accessed in his account in the
Mediterranean language of the chap.

Now, rules & regulations dictates that this breach be reported to the
people responsible for IT security. My friends however wanted to slip
the whole thing under the carpet and forget about it. This is what I
mean by "decorum" -- when friends ask for compromising favours, do you
bend the rules and help them out or do you play by the book. Like I
said, I hate sticking out my neck for friends.

I guess another example would be if a friend asked a bent cop to pull
the records on someone quietly as a "favour".

About the motivation thing, I have to agree that sometimes I too,
despite my passion for my subject, feel like I need to take a walk and
get some air. I guess I just haven't met a team that was also very
passionate about the work, that way we could mutually energise each
other.

Gib Bogle

2005-08-10, 9:04 am

Random Programmer wrote:
> "Actually, I suppose it is a joke --..."
>
> LOL, reminds me of the time when I was first introduced to the term
> "elbow grease" during a workshop session. I asked where I could find it
> :-/
>
> "I'm not sure what you mean by "decorum", exactly."
>
> For example, I often alienate friends because I hate sticking my neck
> out for them. In my PhD office which I share with a bunch of other
> researchers, there was a IT security breach. We know who was
> responsible -- we trusted him and let him hang around the office.
> Apparently he betrayed that trust and stole our passwords somehow. He
> didn't appear to use the information in a malicious manner. One of the
> guys just noticed that porn pages were accessed in his account in the
> Mediterranean language of the chap.
>
> Now, rules & regulations dictates that this breach be reported to the
> people responsible for IT security. My friends however wanted to slip
> the whole thing under the carpet and forget about it. This is what I
> mean by "decorum" -- when friends ask for compromising favours, do you
> bend the rules and help them out or do you play by the book. Like I
> said, I hate sticking out my neck for friends.
>
> I guess another example would be if a friend asked a bent cop to pull
> the records on someone quietly as a "favour".

This doesn't fit the meaning of "decorum".

p.kinsler@ic.ac.uk

2005-08-10, 9:04 am

Richard E Maine <nospam@see.signature> wrote:
> In article <1123620790.324415.114780@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> "Random Programmer" <nonexistent2032@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

[color=darkred]
> Hugely. I don't know how to state how hugely. A lot. That doesn't
> mean you have to be intimate beer-drinking friends with everyone, but if
> you can't work with people, its the wrong business (as are many).

Umm. "Teamplayer" can mean diffeent things. Does it just mean
"happy to work with other people" or are you also required to
sing the company song/ socialise with cow-orkers outside work hours/
work hard for no recognition (it's only the TEAM that counts!)/
etc. It might even mean "work like a dog so the team leader can
take all the credit". It might turn out to be a socialist,
co-operative paradise.

They are using "teamplayer" as a shorthand for something. You
need to get an idea about that something is before you know
whether you fit or not.

As a researcher, you need to be able to work, co-operate, and
bounce ideas off others; however, depending on the topic and
the research group, those others might number anywhere from
one or two through to maybe five or ten, or possibly many more.

So, RP, if you get asked a "teamplayer" question, perhaps start
by saying something vague (but truthful) like "I'm happy to work
with others, as it's important to get a range of perspectives".
Then ask them to tell you more about the group and it's culture,
so you can see how (or if) you might fit in. Then say (if
appropriate) something like "I generally like to think things
through by myself, and your environment seems like one I could
fit into".

> Don't try to fake anything. Ethical questions aside, it won't work.
> The interview isn't the end of your job experience. You then have to
> actually work wherever you are hired. Whatever your nature is, it
> *WILL* come out.

I agree.

Disclaimer: I am no sort of careers advisor, these are just my
thoughts, based on my experience.

--
---------------------------------+---------------------------------
Dr. Paul Kinsler
Blackett Laboratory (QOLS) (ph) +44-20-759-47520 (fax) 47714
Imperial College London, Dr.Paul.Kinsler@physics.org
SW7 2BW, United Kingdom. http://www.qols.ph.ic.ac.uk/~kinsle/

Gordon Sande

2005-08-10, 9:04 am

Random Programmer wrote:
>
>
> Geez, man. Good thing I asked. I was under the mistaken impression that
> it is OK for researchers to go about things solo.
>

That is probably because R&D is 1% R and 99% D even if the recruiters
would tell you that it is 75% R and 25% D. The R may be solo but that
is what showers are for. Just in case you don't get the joke about all
the great ideas that happened in the shower, typically by someone trying
to bypass the employee intellectual property rules. The folks who have
the track records to do 10% R tend to have job titles like "Company
Fellow".

>
>
>
> Do you have any suggestions that might help?
>
> Also, I'm making an appointment with my uni's careers advisor as well.
> I'll try to post some feedback on this thread in due course to help
> other people in the same situation.
>

Gordon Sande

2005-08-10, 9:04 am

Kevin G. Rhoads

2005-08-10, 9:04 am

>When I am faced with a difficult problem (within my area of expertise),
>my first impulse is to go to a quiet place and think about it. Not
>bounce ideas/thoughts off people.

This sounds like you may be more of an introvert than an extrovert. I would
recommend you learn a bit about the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI) and
highly recommend either book: Type Talk or Type Talk at Work (there is sufficient
overlap that either alone will suffice).

You can NOT fake being the other kind. You SHOULD NOT try to fake it. But
you don't have to keep dealing with this as if it were some flaw in you. Learn
about how this is both a strength and a weakness and how you can do something
about the areas where it acts as a weakness.

As for the Ph.D., it is many things to many people -- why do you care? What
do you want it to be for you? Beyond being the "union card" to get into research
and/or tenure track -- it is an apprenticeship in doing research. You should have
learned how to play the game -- you obviously identified one area of the game where
you want to improve (being a team player and clearly signalling that). Now you
should be identifying your goals and areas where improvement can aid you in achieveing
them.

HTH
Kevin

Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply

2005-08-10, 9:04 am

In article <nospam-AFF502.14450609082005@news.supernews.com>, Richard E
Maine <nospam@see.signature> writes:

> In article <1123620790.324415.114780@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> "Random Programmer" <nonexistent2032@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> Hugely. I don't know how to state how hugely. A lot. That doesn't
> mean you have to be intimate beer-drinking friends with everyone, but if
> you can't work with people, its the wrong business (as are many).

Of course, it depends on your area of research. Einstein, for example,
would probably qualify as a pretty good researcher, but he was very much
a lone wolf. No-one was ever awarded a doctorate for working with him,
though he was a professor for most of his professional life. I'm not
sure, but Don Knuth is someone whom I think of as a lone researcher
type.

As usual, it depends. In many areas, of course, teamwork is absolutely
essential.

Random Programmer

2005-08-10, 9:04 am

OK, I might have used my poetic license a bit. But essentially, the
"polite" thing to do is to help out a friend/do favours for them. I
prefer to cover my rear and play things by the book, which alienates
people...

Random Programmer

2005-08-10, 9:04 am

Hiya Kevin. I did do a Myers-Briggs test, both at my uni's careers
service a while ago, and online. Both the test results essentially
concurred. I was an extremely strong INT, with a borderline J/P. As I
recall, I couldn't have scored higher in the
introvert/intuitor/thinking ranges. So, my test scores except for the J
was extremely polarised.

It seems that all the employers I've approached so far have classified
team play as important. Surely there is no point looking for it's
strengths w.r.t. the workplace if I can't even get employed with such a
personality?

Thanks.

Duane Bozarth

2005-08-10, 9:04 am

Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:
>
> In article <nospam-AFF502.14450609082005@news.supernews.com>, Richard E
> Maine <nospam@see.signature> writes:
>
>
> Of course, it depends on your area of research. Einstein, for example,
> would probably qualify as a pretty good researcher, but he was very much
> a lone wolf. No-one was ever awarded a doctorate for working with him,
> though he was a professor for most of his professional life. I'm not
> sure, but Don Knuth is someone whom I think of as a lone researcher
> type.
>
> As usual, it depends. In many areas, of course, teamwork is absolutely
> essential.

The example of Einstein exemplifies my observation--if one is going to
be very successful as the "lone wolf" one best be that kind of talent.
I suppose Newton was another as he was by all descriptions apparently,
irascible at best.

Duane Bozarth

2005-08-10, 9:04 am

Random Programmer wrote:
>
> OK, I might have used my poetic license a bit. But essentially, the
> "polite" thing to do is to help out a friend/do favours for them. I
> prefer to cover my rear and play things by the book, which alienates
> people...

Well, there's an art of accommodation--sometimes a little leniency can
go a long ways without compromising principles unnecessarily.

Kevin G. Rhoads

2005-08-10, 9:04 am

>I've often felt that I know *what* to say, just not *how* to say it.
>Especially when it comes to verbal communication. Do you have any
>suggestions on how I can improve?

Practice, practice, practice.

Were you still working on the PhD, I'd recommend TA-ing grad. level
courses to start, then advanced undergrad. courses, and finally,
freshman topics. When you can teach freshman you have a good start
on explaining to most people. Of course, doing that depends on how
much you uni- uses grad. student Teaching Assistants. If you are
now finished, see about non-tenure track teaching positions. There
is a di

vantage -- it takes TIME and does not pay at all well. So
this is best suited to when you were a grad. student, but you can do it
now. OF course, if teaching is a bore or a pain to you, this will not
work. Don't try to force yourself to be what you aren't.

The advanced challenge is teaching science or math in the K-12 range.
But they usually won't ley anyone do that unless they have a teaching
certificate.

Adult enrichment courses are another venue to practice speaking and
explaining skills -- pay is negligible to non-existent, but the students
are typically motivated.

Kevin G. Rhoads

2005-08-10, 9:04 am

>BTW, don't you guys find the decorum, posturing and politics in teams
>just tiresome and a waste of energy/effort?

Put three people together in a room and the politicking starts.

But just cause the others are playing a game doesn't mean you have to
play the SAME game. Some cases are so terminal, there just isn't any
way to deal with them other than "get out" -- but those are the rare
exception. When a meeting rambles off into personality funnies, you
can tune out and think about the technical stuff. Or you can try to
take hold and redirect it. Or you can do something else. It isn't
an inevitable experience you have to passively sit through.

Duane Bozarth

2005-08-10, 9:04 am

"Kevin G. Rhoads" wrote:
>
>
> Practice, practice, practice.
>
> Were you still working on the PhD, I'd recommend TA-ing grad. level
> courses to start, then advanced undergrad. courses, and finally,
> freshman topics. When you can teach freshman you have a good start
> on explaining to most people. Of course, doing that depends on how
> much you uni- uses grad. student Teaching Assistants. If you are
> now finished, see about non-tenure track teaching positions. There
> is a di

vantage -- it takes TIME and does not pay at all well. So
> this is best suited to when you were a grad. student, but you can do it
> now. OF course, if teaching is a bore or a pain to you, this will not
> work. Don't try to force yourself to be what you aren't.
>
> The advanced challenge is teaching science or math in the K-12 range.
> But they usually won't ley anyone do that unless they have a teaching
> certificate.
>
> Adult enrichment courses are another venue to practice speaking and
> explaining skills -- pay is negligible to non-existent, but the students
> are typically motivated.

Things as simple as participating in student activities such as student
government, service organizations, etc., are good ways to learn and
practice both people and communication skills.

Richard E Maine

2005-08-10, 5:06 pm

In article <1123631781.740347.134370@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Random Programmer" <nonexistent2032@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> BTW, don't you guys find the decorum, posturing and politics in teams
> just tiresome and a waste of energy/effort?

Sounds to me like you have a narrow view of what teamwork means. The
above description doesn't sound much like a team to me. It sounds closer
to the opposite - a group of people working together but not acting as a
team (maybe because it has a lot of people who aren't team players? :-)).
This kind of thing is full of far too many generalizations to say much.
I'm sure your statement accurately describes some teams, even teams that
"work". But that is not fundamentally what it means to be a team.

Several months ago I was on a flight readiness review board for a flight
research project. I came closer than is comfortable to recommending that
the project be terminated because the project personnel were not acting
as a team and I felt that this made it unsafe to fly. Fortunately
(termination would have been painful and controversial), the project did
get its act together. The FRR report did include a formal finding, which
I authored, on the subject of the project teamwork, but also noted the
resolution. (No, this wasn't shuttle or anything you've probably heard
of).

--
Richard Maine | Good judgment comes from experience;
email: my first.last at org.domain | experience comes from bad judgment.
org: nasa, domain: gov | -- Mark Twain

Rich Townsend

2005-08-10, 5:06 pm

Richard E Maine wrote:
> In article <1123631781.740347.134370@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Random Programmer" <nonexistent2032@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Sounds to me like you have a narrow view of what teamwork means. The
> above description doesn't sound much like a team to me. It sounds closer
> to the opposite - a group of people working together but not acting as a
> team (maybe because it has a lot of people who aren't team players? :-)).
> This kind of thing is full of far too many generalizations to say much.
> I'm sure your statement accurately describes some teams, even teams that
> "work". But that is not fundamentally what it means to be a team.
>
> Several months ago I was on a flight readiness review board for a flight
> research project. I came closer than is comfortable to recommending that
> the project be terminated because the project personnel were not acting
> as a team and I felt that this made it unsafe to fly. Fortunately
> (termination would have been painful and controversial), the project did
> get its act together. The FRR report did include a formal finding, which
> I authored, on the subject of the project teamwork, but also noted the
> resolution. (No, this wasn't shuttle or anything you've probably heard
> of).
>

Black-ops skunkworks stuff, eh, Mr Maine? You Roswell/Area 51 stooge!

:)

Kevin G. Rhoads

2005-08-10, 5:06 pm

>Surely there is no point looking for it's
>strengths w.r.t. the workplace if I can't even get employed with such a
>personality?

I scored 100% introvert when I did MBTI test. I am a team player. Being an introvert
is not destiny, it is a predilection. The Type Talk book helps you understand yourself,
so you can use your strengths better and work-around or overcome your weaknesses.

Being an introvert does NOT mean you can't be a team player -- but it does mean you
will likely not be, if you don't learn how to be. I'm sure there are other good books
or resources to help one learn these things, but the Type Talk books were ones that
worked for me.

"Team player" is a complex of behaviours. "Introvert" is a personality trait. If
you don't learn how to be a team player while remaining an introvert, that will limit
your career possibilities. You can't change from an introvert to being an extrovert,
but you can change your behaviour and what kinds of interactions you can comfortably
deal with. You didn't reinvent calculus from scratch -- you learned it from teachers
and books. Don't feel you need to reinvent the whole process of dealing with social
situations and your personality predilections -- learn from those whove gone before you.

OK - enough pep talk here. ;-)

Kevin G. Rhoads

2005-08-10, 5:06 pm

>But essentially, the
>"polite" thing to do is to help out a friend/do favours for them. I
>prefer to cover my rear and play things by the book, which alienates
>people...

Usually "friends" don't ask friends to be accessories-after-the-fact. On the
other hand, there are ways to report questionable or wrong activity that do
not involve rubbing peoples' noses in it.

One place I worked at had an in house number crunch (in Fortran, to make this
marginally on topic) that was considered highly proprietary and sensitive. Many
people in the company didn't know the thing existed, very few people had access
to the executable and only two people had access to the source. Being a Fortran
hacker of long standing I'd asked about seeing the source when I was given access
to the EXE, and nearly had my ears burnt off with the response. (That's how
I learned only two people had access to the source code.) Some months later,
while perusing the public directory related to that number crunch project I saw
a subdirectory which was full of source -- accidentally left publicly accessible
on the in house network. I *walked over* to another building in the complex, found
the guy in charge of the project and quietly mentioned it to him out of anyone else's
hearing.

That reported the problem so it could be fixed, but didn't make any waves.
Reporting it in just about any other manner would have created a big stink
(and gotten me labelled as a trouble-maker) and made for me an enemy of
the guy in charge of the project. Instead I did my duty to the company,
fixed a problem, and didn't get any bad labels. And, the guy in charge
of that project knew I was a team player, 'cause I didn't make him look
bad unnecessarily.

Part of being a team player is considering how one's actions will affect
others -- and in choosing variants that minimize unnecessary harm.

Kevin G. Rhoads

2005-08-10, 5:06 pm

>The FRR report

Is an FRR another name for an MRR (Mission Readiness Review)?

Richard E Maine

2005-08-10, 5:06 pm

In article <1123630325.872514.131860@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"Random Programmer" <nonexistent2032@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>
> What do you mean by communicate? I've noted several different types:...

Pretty much all kinds, as others have noted. But I wasn't saying that I
particularly noticed you having a problem with that. Your posts here
seem coherent enough. I was just mentioning communication a similar case
of non-technical skills that are often dismissed by some students as
unimportant, but are actually very important.

>
> OMG, really? I'm really curious to learn how you could note this trait
> about me from my mere written word.

Not worth belaboring here, but it didn't take supernatural insight. The
first impressions come from clues that I haven't analyzed past noting
that I got the impression. Later reinforcement was pretty explicit,
though, in things like wanting to protect your status as the only person
who could do something seeming, and in preferring to keep your code to
yourself even when you think that other people could improve on it. Few
things make me more proud of my work than when someone else claims that
they can do better than I did; that makes me feel like my work had an
influence on future progress and didn't just end with me.

But mostly let me not belabor this negative line further.

> I think I'll go off and try speaking to my uni's careers advisor and
> see how I can build on the teamwork skills...

This sounds good and positive.

I'll note in closing that to some degree, things like this are related
to age. They take time to develop. You have to get headed in the right
direction, which some people never do. I am encouraged that perhaps you
are starting in that direction. Once you are on the path, time will
help. It helped me.

--
Richard Maine | Good judgment comes from experience;
email: my first.last at org.domain | experience comes from bad judgment.
org: nasa, domain: gov | -- Mark Twain

Richard E Maine

2005-08-10, 5:06 pm

In article <42FA2162.32613FA7@alum.mit.edu>,
"Kevin G. Rhoads" <kgrhoads@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

>
> Is an FRR another name for an MRR (Mission Readiness Review)?

I don't think so. Overlap, but not the same. I'm not actually familiar
with MRRs from first hand experience; I think the space project
procedures tend to be a bit different. For an aero flight research
project, an FRR is a fairly major hurdle before the project's first
flight. But a research project usually involves multiple flights,
sometimes as many as hundreds. There are much smaller hoops to jump
through before individual flights. A new FRR would be merited after a
major change or major new phase of a flight research project.

I think a single space mission is a "bigger deal" than a single research
flight of an airplane. So the procedures are probably different.

But frankly, I don't know much about the space flight procedures at that
level of detail. I've worked on some Shuttle-related teams on occasion
(particularly analyzing the aero data from the first re-entries), but
I've never been involved in the project-level procedures like that.

--
Richard Maine | Good judgment comes from experience;
email: my first.last at org.domain | experience comes from bad judgment.
org: nasa, domain: gov | -- Mark Twain

Richard E Maine

2005-08-10, 5:06 pm

In article <ddd6s9$3vq$1@scrotar.nss.udel.edu>,
Rich Townsend <rhdt@barVOIDtol.udel.edu> wrote:

> Black-ops skunkworks stuff, eh, Mr Maine? You Roswell/Area 51 stooge!

I can honestly say that I am not allowed to talk about any work
that I have done for NASA at area 51. :-)

P.S. The FRR was for an aero-elastic wing project (which is now flying
and getting good data).

--
Richard Maine | Good judgment comes from experience;
email: my first.last at org.domain | experience comes from bad judgment.
org: nasa, domain: gov | -- Mark Twain

Duane Bozarth

2005-08-10, 5:06 pm

Richard E Maine wrote:
>
> In article <ddd6s9$3vq$1@scrotar.nss.udel.edu>,
> Rich Townsend <rhdt@barVOIDtol.udel.edu> wrote:
>
>
> I can honestly say that I am not allowed to talk about any work
> that I have done for NASA at area 51. :-)

Wouldn't that be may or may not have done? :)

Random Programmer

2005-08-10, 5:06 pm

Hiya Kevin. Is this the book you were referring to?

"Type Talk"
by Otto Kroeger & Janet Thuesen

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...478200?v=glance

My college's library doesn't have it. Looks like I will have to buy
it...

Random Programmer

2005-08-10, 5:06 pm

Oh, btw, I found your suggestion that being an introvert doesn't
necessarily mean you're not a teamplayer extremely useful. I always
assumed that introverts are not teamplayers, period.

Jim Cornwall

2005-08-10, 5:06 pm

Random Programmer wrote:
>
>
> Hiya Duane. 2 answers:
> 1) With money to buy a ticket;
> 2) With a good voice, or by being a virtuoso.
>
> I suspect the answer you are prodding for is with #2, and by
> practising.
>
> BTW, don't you guys find the decorum, posturing and politics in teams
> just tiresome and a waste of energy/effort?
>

If I were in a team environment like that, yes I would find it tiring.
However, I think those are more the exception than the rule.

In my job (US federal civilian agency, doing database applications for
water), we find it essential to work as a team or nothing would get
done. Too many programs to manage, too many customers to deal with, and
we need as many brains as possible just to keep up with the demand for
updates and enhancements. We do have a couple of guys who prefer the
'lone-wolf' approach, and beleive me it can get very frustrating for the
rest of us when their software changes don't quite fit with the rest of
the team's changes.

BTW, I don't have a computer degree/education either. Two degrees in
geology plus a bit over a decade of military computer experience. I had
team operations beaten in over the years, so there's surely hope for
learning how. :-)

Jim C

Kevin G. Rhoads

2005-08-10, 5:06 pm

>Hiya Kevin. Is this the book you were referring to?
>
>"Type Talk"
>by Otto Kroeger & Janet Thuesen

Yes. Or the sequel Type Talk at Work.

Duane Bozarth

2005-08-10, 5:06 pm

Random Programmer wrote:
>
> Oh, btw, I found your suggestion that being an introvert doesn't
> necessarily mean you're not a teamplayer extremely useful. I always
> assumed that introverts are not teamplayers, period.

As noted, you <always> have choice...

Brooks Moses

2005-08-11, 4:01 am

Random Programmer wrote:
> Oh, btw, I found your suggestion that being an introvert doesn't
> necessarily mean you're not a teamplayer extremely useful. I always
> assumed that introverts are not teamplayers, period.

This is _way_ off-topic, but.... The explanation of it that's made the
most sense to me is: Extraverts [1] find it energizing and invigorating
to be interacting with large groups of people and tiring to be in small
groups or alone, while intraverts are the opposite.

So, it doesn't mean that you can't be a team player, or even that you
can't become quite good at interacting with groups of people. It just
means that interacting with groups of people is probably something that
you find tiring and probably don't really enjoy, and thus probably
haven't had much motivation to get much practice at. (At least, that's
what it's meant for me, though I've found that its become a lot more
enjoyable and less tiring as I've done more of it.)

Also, one thing that I've personally found is that online communities
have been good for me in this sort of thing -- because I'm (in the
literal sense) alone right now, and can pause and go think about
something else for an hour without being rude, or can skim over boring
parts, it's a lot easier and much less tiring to interact with people
this way -- but it's still developing communication skills, and skills
at answering people's questions and listening (well, reading), and such.

- Brooks

[1] Note the fifth-letter-"a" spelling of the words, which is what the
MBTI uses. That's different from the usual spelling, and in the MBTI
it's intentionally done that way to indicate that it doesn't really mean
quite what the "usual" use of the "o"-spelled word means.

--
The "bmoses-nospam" address is valid; no unmunging needed.

Kevin G. Rhoads

2005-08-11, 9:03 am

>> Is an FRR another name for an MRR (Mission Readiness Review)?
>
>I don't think so. Overlap, but not the same. I'm not actually familiar
>with MRRs from first hand experience; I think the space project
>procedures tend to be a bit different

OK. THanks for the info. I just recently (last couple of years) started dealing
with MRRs (at Wallops, for sounding rocket programs) as I am now working with a
physics group that does ionospheric/magnetospheric research using sounding
rocket borne instrumentation. (So far, in addition to payload integration
and MRRs at Wallops, I've gotten to go to Svalbard and Alaska -- in winter).

I am TLA-enabled but MRRs were new to me ;-)
Since most of my prior experience was university and industrial (mostly consulting)
I'd not previously dealt with such.

Carlie J. Coats

2005-08-16, 5:06 pm

Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:
[snip...]
> Of course, it depends on your area of research. Einstein, for example,
> would probably qualify as a pretty good researcher, but he was very much
> a lone wolf. No-one was ever awarded a doctorate for working with him,
> though he was a professor for most of his professional life....

You have to be a little careful about the Einstein example: there was
sufficient active interaction at meetings and enough correspondence
going on that some make the case that David Hilbert was the first
to state the general relativity equations correctly...

which is evidence for the importance of professional interaction,
although perhaps not "team play."

--

Carlie J. Coats, Jr. carlie.coats@baronams.com
Environmental Modeling Center carlie_coats@ncsu.edu
c/o North Carolina State University MEAS Department
1125 Jordan Hall Campus Box 8208
Raleigh, NC 27695 phone: (919)515-7076 / fax: (919)515-7802
"My opinions are my own, and I've got *lots* of them!"

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