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Q: F2k3 Vote Result
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| Gary L. Scott 2005-02-19, 3:57 am |
| Hi,
The F2k3 vote was something like:
13 For "as presented" (Canada, China, Czech Republic, Germany, Italy,
Japan, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Republic of Korea, Slovenia,
UK, USA)
6 Abstain (Australia, France, Singapore, South Africa, Sweden, Switzerland)
10 No vote
From the above, it looks like a majority was either unavailable to
vote, disinterested, opposed but not concerned with blocking, or some
other reasoning. What were some of the reasons for the high percentage
of "non participation" and what does abstain mean (don't like it but
don't care enough to block?, they had to catch a flight to Tahiti and
couldn't stay?)?
(sorry for any typos, couldn't find my glasses but I squinted and I
think I got most of them :-)
--
Gary Scott
mailto:garyscott@ev1.net
Fortran Library: http://www.fortranlib.com
Support the Original G95 Project: http://www.g95.org
-OR-
Support the GNU GFortran Project: http://gcc.gnu.org/fortran/index.html
Why are there two? God only knows.
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep, voting on what to eat for dinner...
Liberty is a well armed sheep contesting the vote. - Thomas Jefferson
| |
| Dan Nagle 2005-02-19, 3:57 pm |
| Hello,
In some countries, the standards committee consists
of one or two people who have their own interests.
In an unfortunately large number of cases, there's
no concern or vote on anything outside the interest.
This is bad for programming, because commercial interests
have more influence when public interests vacate
the arena. See the C++ competition between Microsoft
and J16. Is C++ becoming one language or two?
--=20
Cheers!
Dan Nagle
Purple Sage Computing Solutions, Inc.
On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 21:47:33 -0600, "Gary L. Scott"
<garyscott@ev1.net> wrote:
>Hi,
>
>The F2k3 vote was something like:
>
>13 For "as presented" (Canada, China, Czech Republic, Germany, Italy,=20
>Japan, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Republic of Korea, Slovenia,=20
>UK, USA)
>
>6 Abstain (Australia, France, Singapore, South Africa, Sweden, =
Switzerland)
>
>10 No vote
>
> From the above, it looks like a majority was either unavailable to=20
>vote, disinterested, opposed but not concerned with blocking, or some=20
>other reasoning. What were some of the reasons for the high percentage=20
>of "non participation" and what does abstain mean (don't like it but=20
>don't care enough to block?, they had to catch a flight to Tahiti and=20
>couldn't stay?)?
>
>(sorry for any typos, couldn't find my glasses but I squinted and I=20
>think I got most of them :-)
| |
| Gary L. Scott 2005-02-19, 3:57 pm |
| Dan Nagle wrote:
> Hello,
>
> In some countries, the standards committee consists
> of one or two people who have their own interests.
You mean a Fortran standards committee? that is only interested in one
or a few features and can't be bothered with the rest?
> In an unfortunately large number of cases, there's
> no concern or vote on anything outside the interest.
>
> This is bad for programming, because commercial interests
> have more influence when public interests vacate
> the arena. See the C++ competition between Microsoft
> and J16. Is C++ becoming one language or two?
>
Generally bad, however vendors tend to be somewhat more learned on the
subject of compilers than the general public so is it really all that
bad? Better than to let fad-obsessed academia run roughshod over the
process.
--
Gary Scott
mailto:garyscott@ev1.net
Fortran Library: http://www.fortranlib.com
Support the Original G95 Project: http://www.g95.org
-OR-
Support the GNU GFortran Project: http://gcc.gnu.org/fortran/index.html
Why are there two? God only knows.
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep, voting on what to eat for dinner...
Liberty is a well armed sheep contesting the vote. - Thomas Jefferson
| |
| Michael Metcalf 2005-02-19, 3:57 pm |
|
"Gary L. Scott" <garyscott@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:111eo5c9l6b8g02@corp.supernews.com...
> Dan Nagle wrote:
>
> You mean a Fortran standards committee? that is only interested in one
> or a few features and can't be bothered with the rest?
>
>
That's what he means. For instance, the only person left remotely active in
Germany is interested only in interval arithmetic (which never quite makes
it into the standard). The members involved in all countries apart from the
UK and US are essentially self appointed but nevertheless recognised by the
respective national bodies as being representative of all (Fortran)
programmers in that country. Only in the UK and US is there any attempt to
consult, however rudimentarily, the programming 'public'. Basically, the
system is deeply flawed but the only one we have. Of course, anyone is
welcome to join in, so it's not exclusive!
Regards,
Mike Metcalf
| |
| Richard Maine 2005-02-19, 3:57 pm |
| "Gary L. Scott" <garyscott@ev1.net> writes:
> Dan Nagle wrote:
>
> You mean a Fortran standards committee? that is only interested in one
> or a few features and can't be bothered with the rest?
No. It is a higher level committee - I forget whether at the level
of all programming languages, or even higher than that. What happens
is that the country in question doesn't have anyone working on
Fortran standardization at all - or maybe not even in programming
languages in general. So they tend not to vote.
By the way, to correct he who shall not be named. Yes, Canada does
have a vote and tends to use it. The current tCanadian rep also
attends J3 meetings, but that doesn't make him a US vote. If it
did, then you'd have to count most of the votes as US votes, since
many people from other companies attend the US J3 meetings with
varying degrees of regularity. The fact is that Canada has a vote.
If someone wants to say that "it doesn't count as an independent
vote", well, they are free to make whatever personal interpretations
they want, but I'll stick to the facts of the matter instead of the
usual slurs.
--
Richard Maine
email: my last name at domain
domain: summertriangle dot net
| |
| Richard Maine 2005-02-19, 3:57 pm |
| Richard Maine <nospam@see.signature> writes:
> "Gary L. Scott" <garyscott@ev1.net> writes:
>
>
> No. It is a higher level committee...
> is that the country in question doesn't have anyone working on
> Fortran standardization at all...
Hmm. I see that Mike replied with a different answer... and he usually
knows what he is talking about, so perhaps I'm wrong on this. I've
never heard about word one about Fortran from a few of those countries,
not even on some isolated subject, but I guess that I don't know
for a fact that they have no Fortran committee. That's the impression
that comes over, but I'm not actually sure of the precise details.
--
Richard Maine
email: my last name at domain
domain: summertriangle dot net
| |
| Michael Metcalf 2005-02-19, 3:58 pm |
|
"Richard Maine" <nospam@see.signature> wrote in message
news:87sm3sa4hg.fsf@vega.site...
>
> Hmm. I see that Mike replied with a different answer... and he usually
> knows what he is talking about, so perhaps I'm wrong on this. I've
> never heard about word one about Fortran from a few of those countries,
> not even on some isolated subject, but I guess that I don't know
> for a fact that they have no Fortran committee. That's the impression
> that comes over, but I'm not actually sure of the precise details.
>
How it's supposed to work is that the higher level committee, responsible
for all programming languages, is supposed to s advice from the relevant
Fortran committee. It is, indeed, the ANSI, DIN, BSI, AFNOR etc. committees
that supply the votes. Whatever happens formally does not change the fact
that Fortran standardization is moved forward by a group of activists. In
the best possible case, an individual can claim to represent a constituency,
as Richard certainly did for NASA (and as I tried to do for high-energy
physics). At the other extreme are activists who are actually in retirement
and who still participate with no brief from anyone. That's not to criticise
them, as without those very experienced folks it's probable that the whole
effort would collapse. My basic point, and one that I've been making for
years, is that before about 1990 there were so many people involved in
Fortran standardization that the system, although flawed, could nevertheless
claim to be representative. I no longer believe that to be the case.
Regards,
Mike Metcalf
| |
| Gary L. Scott 2005-02-19, 3:58 pm |
| Michael Metcalf wrote:
> "Gary L. Scott" <garyscott@ev1.net> wrote in message
> news:111eo5c9l6b8g02@corp.supernews.com...
>
>
>
> That's what he means. For instance, the only person left remotely active in
> Germany is interested only in interval arithmetic (which never quite makes
> it into the standard). The members involved in all countries apart from the
> UK and US are essentially self appointed but nevertheless recognised by the
> respective national bodies as being representative of all (Fortran)
> programmers in that country. Only in the UK and US is there any attempt to
> consult, however rudimentarily, the programming 'public'. Basically, the
> system is deeply flawed but the only one we have. Of course, anyone is
> welcome to join in, so it's not exclusive!
Not that I'm in any way qualified, but I did make a concerted effort to
get company sponsorship, going all the way to the company president with
what I thought was a well reasoned argument. Surprised that there was
any interest at all, he commissioned a study of Fortran use in the
company. To his surprise, he found users numbering in the 100s (and at
one time CVF was the only compiler of any language offered for dual home
and work use arrangments). However, he left the final decision to the
"software engineering" department (rather than the hardware/systems
engineering department of which I am a part). Since it wasn't Ada or C
based, they decided it wasn't "strategic". Now they seem to be running
from Ada in droves...
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike Metcalf
>
>
--
Gary Scott
mailto:garyscott@ev1.net
Fortran Library: http://www.fortranlib.com
Support the Original G95 Project: http://www.g95.org
-OR-
Support the GNU GFortran Project: http://gcc.gnu.org/fortran/index.html
Why are there two? God only knows.
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep, voting on what to eat for dinner...
Liberty is a well armed sheep contesting the vote. - Thomas Jefferson
| |
| Walt Brainerd 2005-02-19, 8:58 pm |
| Gary L. Scott wrote:
> Dan Nagle wrote:
>
>
>
> You mean a Fortran standards committee? that is only interested in one
> or a few features and can't be bothered with the rest?
>
>
>
> Generally bad, however vendors tend to be somewhat more learned on the
> subject of compilers than the general public so is it really all that
> bad? Better than to let fad-obsessed academia run roughshod over the
> process.
>
I know it's fun to take cheap shots at the pointy-headed academics,
but a couple of points are relevant to this comment:
1. Academics have been very underrepresented on the Fortran
standards committees. Almost all of those that have had
an academic affiliation are not faculty (the real pointy
ones, I guess). Which brings us to point #2 ...
2. Fortunately, there has been significant representation
from at least some parts of the user community. Without them,
Fortran 90 probably would not have come to exist.
The vendors certainly, as a group, are the most knowledgable
about compilers. That does not mean that they have the best
ideas about how a programming language should evolve (nor does
it mean they don't).
--
Walt Brainerd +1-877-355-6640 (voice & fax)
The Fortran Company +1-520-760-1397 (outside USA)
6025 N. Wilmot Road walt@fortran.com
Tucson, AZ 85750 USA http://www.fortran.com
| |
|
| On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 12:47:00 -0700, Walt Brainerd <walt@fortran.com>
wrote:
>Gary L. Scott wrote:
>I know it's fun to take cheap shots at the pointy-headed academics,
>but a couple of points are relevant to this comment:
>
>1. Academics have been very underrepresented on the Fortran
> standards committees. Almost all of those that have had
> an academic affiliation are not faculty (the real pointy
> ones, I guess). Which brings us to point #2 ...
>
>2. Fortunately, there has been significant representation
> from at least some parts of the user community. Without them,
> Fortran 90 probably would not have come to exist.
>
>The vendors certainly, as a group, are the most knowledgable
>about compilers. That does not mean that they have the best
>ideas about how a programming language should evolve (nor does
>it mean they don't).
Having developed compilers for a vendor, I have found that the
vendor's rep watches for any changes or proposals that would make it
difficult or impossible for the vendor to meet them.
| |
| Gary L. Scott 2005-02-19, 8:58 pm |
| Walt Brainerd wrote:
> Gary L. Scott wrote:
>
> I know it's fun to take cheap shots at the pointy-headed academics,
> but a couple of points are relevant to this comment:
Responded separately also. Was just a light-hearted poke. Just a hope
for balance in the process. I love academics and I'm also a current
graduate student (and don't let anyone tell you that Indiana State is an
easy school either)...but they are prone to fads...
>
> 1. Academics have been very underrepresented on the Fortran
> standards committees. Almost all of those that have had
> an academic affiliation are not faculty (the real pointy
> ones, I guess). Which brings us to point #2 ...
>
> 2. Fortunately, there has been significant representation
> from at least some parts of the user community. Without them,
> Fortran 90 probably would not have come to exist.
>
> The vendors certainly, as a group, are the most knowledgable
> about compilers. That does not mean that they have the best
> ideas about how a programming language should evolve (nor does
> it mean they don't).
>
They certainly tend to understand their customer base also, his
applications, and what he really must accomplish with his system. Thus
the plethora of low-level "system programming" features that evolved
over the decades. One of my biggest complaints is the lack of balance
(at least I perceive that) in favor of making (or keeping as the case
may be) Fortran a niche (inadequately capable, ala F77) language rather
than making it more general purpose. It is happening, but it has been
excruciatingly slow and some fundamental features are still lacking (bit
string datatype (no I don't like the "Typeless" proposal as being
insufficient), processes, threads, priority control, synchronication).
--
Gary Scott
mailto:garyscott@ev1.net
Fortran Library: http://www.fortranlib.com
Support the Original G95 Project: http://www.g95.org
-OR-
Support the GNU GFortran Project: http://gcc.gnu.org/fortran/index.html
Why are there two? God only knows.
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep, voting on what to eat for dinner...
Liberty is a well armed sheep contesting the vote. - Thomas Jefferson
| |
| Gerald F. Thomas 2005-02-20, 3:57 pm |
|
"Richard Maine" <nospam@see.signature> wrote in message
news:87wtt4a4zg.fsf@vega.site...
>
> By the way, to correct he who shall not be named.
You have not corrected anyone, least of all me ('he who shall not be
named', AFAIK, Gerald F. Thomas, gfthomas@sympatico,ca), of which you are
incapable..
>Yes, Canada does have a vote
Absolutely wrong.
> and tends to use it. The current tCanadian rep also
> attends J3 meetings, but that doesn't make him a US vote. If it
> did, then you'd have to count most of the votes as US votes, since
> many people from other companies attend the US J3 meetings with
> varying degrees of regularity.
And Canada is no exception.
>The fact is that Canada has a vote. If someone wants to say that
> "it doesn't count as an independent vote",
These are your words which you ought not attribule to anyone other than
yourself; actually don't shove anything down anyone's throat unless
invited, undoubtedly an infrequent invitation in your case.
> well, they are free to make whatever personal interpretations
> they want, but I'll stick to the facts of the matter instead of the
> usual slurs.
>
You are a grand master of slurs. Thank you, you have taught me much!
--
You're Welcome,
Gerry T.
______
"Things are not what they seem; or, to be more accurate, they are not only
what they seem, but very much else besides." -- Aldous Huxley.
| |
| Aardpig 2005-02-20, 3:57 pm |
| Gerald F. Thomas wrote:
> "Richard Maine" <nospam@see.signature> wrote in message
> news:87wtt4a4zg.fsf@vega.site...
>
>
>
> You have not corrected anyone, least of all me ('he who shall not be
> named', AFAIK, Gerald F. Thomas, gfthomas@sympatico,ca), of which you are
> incapable..
>
gfthomas@sympatico.ca is a bogus email address; just like its presumed
owner is a bogus person.
>
>
>
> Absolutely wrong.
>
Pardon me, but what the XXXX do you know? What is *your* standing to
make such a claim? And who on this ng gives a shit what you think?
| |
| Walt Brainerd 2005-02-20, 3:57 pm |
| john wrote:
<snip>
>
> Having developed compilers for a vendor, I have found that the
> vendor's rep watches for any changes or proposals that would make it
> difficult or impossible for the vendor to meet them.
Oh, absolutely. When I was on X3J3 and a vendor (or two)
claimed that a feature done a particular way would be
hard to implement or probably result in inefficient
code, this usually killed it (as it should).
But the "balance" that I think is sometimes lacking
(and I think I am agreeing with Gary Scott in his
response) is more of a long term view of where things
are going and how the language looks as a whole,
rather than focusing on specific features.
--
Walt Brainerd +1-877-355-6640 (voice & fax)
The Fortran Company +1-520-760-1397 (outside USA)
6025 N. Wilmot Road walt@fortran.com
Tucson, AZ 85750 USA http://www.fortran.com
| |
| Gerald F. Thomas 2005-02-20, 3:57 pm |
|
"Aardpig" <aardpig@nospam> wrote in message
news:KJidnXQATcApM4XfRVn-sQ@comcast.com...
> Gerald F. Thomas wrote:
are[color=darkred]
>
> gfthomas@sympatico.ca is a bogus email address; just like its presumed
> owner is a bogus person.
>
>
> Pardon me, but what the XXXX do you know? What is *your* standing to
> make such a claim? And who on this ng gives a shit what you think?
Obviously you do. I've got my 15-20, maybe even 20-25 on your diastolic.
Keep it up Bubba, -:).
--
You're Welcome,
Gerry T.
______
"I promise there will be fewer nuclear disasters with me as your mayor
than with me as your nuclear safety inspector." Homer Simpson
| |
| Gerald F. Thomas 2005-02-20, 3:57 pm |
|
"Aardpig" <aardpig@nospam> wrote in message
news:KJidnXQATcApM4XfRVn-sQ@comcast.com...
>
> gfthomas@sympatico.ca is a bogus email address
Big rong butt far yu it's true!, -:).
>; just like its presumed owner is a bogus person.
Spooky!, missed you're meds eh! Not to worry, all here at c.l.f. are
gunning for you, eh?. If your in the NY Buffalo evirons, get to the AK
Musuem, it'll calm you down!!
>
>
> Pardon me, but what the XXXX do you know? What is *your* standing to
> make such a claim? And who on this ng gives a shit what you think?
| |
| Jan Vorbrüggen 2005-02-21, 8:57 am |
| ISO's correspoding organizization in Germany is DIN, which is a private
non-profit association that, although one could argue that it performs
a public service and is indeed widely perceived as such, no longer
receives any substantial public funding. It thus levies dues on those
participating in its standardization activities, and only dues payers
(usually companies represented by one or more of their employees) are
allowed to vote on standards proposals, including those sent by ISO to
DIN. For one subject committee I managed my company to convince that
it is important to participate in, those dues are just under a thousand
Euro per year. At that level, I see no way people who have a more cursory
interest in a certain subject formally participating in the process.
Jan
| |
| Gib Bogle 2005-02-22, 8:59 pm |
| Gerald F. Thomas wrote:
> "Aardpig" <aardpig@nospam> wrote in message
> news:KJidnXQATcApM4XfRVn-sQ@comcast.com...
>
>
> Big rong butt far yu it's true!, -:).
>
>
>
>
> Spooky!, missed you're meds eh! Not to worry, all here at c.l.f. are
> gunning for you, eh?. If your in the NY Buffalo evirons, get to the AK
> Musuem, it'll calm you down!!
A matter of grammar: "you're" is short for "you are", while "your"
means "belonging to you". You have these swapped.
Hope this helps,
Gib
| |
| Bernard PICHON 2005-02-24, 4:00 pm |
| [...]
> The members involved in all countries apart from the
> UK and US are essentially self appointed but
> nevertheless recognised by the respective national
> bodies as being representative of all (Fortran)
> programmers in that country.
For example, it is exactely the case in France,
where my employer (the CNRS, our national agency
for research) does not recognize any activities
in fortran as useful for the communauty and,
therefore it is impossible for me to have money
to attend a working group (except when France
organizes such a meeting in 1999).
BP
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