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Re: A question about graphic I/O
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| Richard Maine 2004-06-25, 7:43 pm |
| Madhusudan Singh <spammers-go-here@yahoo.com> writes:
> I do not expect I am the first person to pose this question,...
Far from it.
> Is there a possibility of Fortran standards developing a set of functions
> for graphical and sound o/p in a cross platform fashion in the next 10-15
> years ?
In very short: no.
In pretty short, but not quite that curtly:
Well, of course it is possible, but it isn't going to happen. If
you'd like to lay large sums of money on such a bet, see me when I'm
not posting from work. :-) (No, not really).
Reasons have been discussed before.
One class of reasons centers around how appropriate it is for such
things to be in a language standard. Look around for *ANY* portable
standardized language that has such a thing as part of its standard.
Many think that it is more appropriate to have a single GUI standard
that is used by multiple languages rather than a separate one for
each language. Of course, progress on that area is not exactly
rapid either, but that's another question.
But the biggest single reason why it isn't going to happen has nothing
to do with philosophical judgements about whether it is or is not
appropriate. The biggest reason is that the resources aren't there;
they aren't even close, and that isn't going to change in the time
span you are talking about.
Doing even a half-decent job of a cross-platform GUI standard is
a *HUGE* job. Oh, and if you want to actually have the standard
be accepted and implemented widely enough to be of actual use,
then the job is even bigger; just publishing a standard on paper
does not make it get used.
You are far from alone, so please don't take this as a personal
comment, but I don't think you could possibly have any concept of the
actual makeup of the committee and seriously ask a question like that.
There are a hair more than a dozen people, all volunteering their
time, either individually or through their employers. Several of them
are regulars on clf - this isn't some abstract organization of "them".
None work anything close to full time on this; it isn't their "day
job". A significant fraction of them are self-employed or retired.
We meet for a w , 4 times a year (and that's a pretty big burden for
some). It is often seriously questionable whether there are enough
people putting enough time into it to get the Fortran part done.
There simply aren't the people to do it.
In addition to the number of people and the fraction of their time
available, there's the particular people. I'm fairly confident in
stating that not one of them has significant expertise in this
area. You don't *WANT* them to design your cross-platform gui;
it just isn't the right people for that job.
I might turn the question around. You'll think I'm being facetious
in this, but I'm not. Why don't *YOU* get together a group of
people to do a good cross-platform Fortran GUI standard if that's
what you think important. That's how things actually happen - not
by hoping to identify some other group to do the work, but by going
out and doing it. Ok, though my question was serious in a way, it
was also rhetorical. I know why you don't do it - because it is
the same reasons that nobody else does. It's a huge job - you better
forget about whatever other job you might have had; and yes, I'm
assuming it would be a group project, but I still think several
of the people better be full-time on it. And there is a high
probability that it will be a thankless and wasted job unless you
also can manage to "sell" the result.
Along the way, you can sell ISO on adding it as an official standards
project. But that really wouldn't be nearly as much work as selling
implementors on implementing it and programmers on using it.
So are you ready to take on organizing it and making it happen? No, I
thought not. Neither am I, by the way, so I'm not picking on you.
Neither is anyone else here (or elsewhere) ready to take it on that
I've noticed. All I've seen is a lot of people asking why someone
else doesn't do it. Therein lies the *REAL* reason it doesn't happen.
All else is secondary.
--
Richard Maine | Good judgment comes from experience;
email: my first.last at org.domain | experience comes from bad judgment.
org: nasa, domain: gov | -- Mark Twain
| |
| Gary L. Scott 2004-06-25, 7:43 pm |
| Richard Maine wrote:
>
> Madhusudan Singh <spammers-go-here@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>
> Far from it.
>
>
> In very short: no.
>
> In pretty short, but not quite that curtly:
>
> Well, of course it is possible, but it isn't going to happen. If
> you'd like to lay large sums of money on such a bet, see me when I'm
> not posting from work. :-) (No, not really).
>
> Reasons have been discussed before.
>
> One class of reasons centers around how appropriate it is for such
> things to be in a language standard. Look around for *ANY* portable
> standardized language that has such a thing as part of its standard.
> Many think that it is more appropriate to have a single GUI standard
> that is used by multiple languages rather than a separate one for
> each language. Of course, progress on that area is not exactly
> rapid either, but that's another question.
>
> But the biggest single reason why it isn't going to happen has nothing
> to do with philosophical judgements about whether it is or is not
> appropriate. The biggest reason is that the resources aren't there;
> they aren't even close, and that isn't going to change in the time
> span you are talking about.
>
> Doing even a half-decent job of a cross-platform GUI standard is
> a *HUGE* job. Oh, and if you want to actually have the standard
> be accepted and implemented widely enough to be of actual use,
> then the job is even bigger; just publishing a standard on paper
> does not make it get used.
>
> You are far from alone, so please don't take this as a personal
> comment, but I don't think you could possibly have any concept of the
> actual makeup of the committee and seriously ask a question like that.
> There are a hair more than a dozen people, all volunteering their
> time, either individually or through their employers. Several of them
> are regulars on clf - this isn't some abstract organization of "them".
> None work anything close to full time on this; it isn't their "day
> job". A significant fraction of them are self-employed or retired.
> We meet for a w, 4 times a year (and that's a pretty big burden for
> some). It is often seriously questionable whether there are enough
> people putting enough time into it to get the Fortran part done.
> There simply aren't the people to do it.
>
> In addition to the number of people and the fraction of their time
> available, there's the particular people. I'm fairly confident in
> stating that not one of them has significant expertise in this
> area. You don't *WANT* them to design your cross-platform gui;
> it just isn't the right people for that job.
>
> I might turn the question around. You'll think I'm being facetious
> in this, but I'm not. Why don't *YOU* get together a group of
> people to do a good cross-platform Fortran GUI standard if that's
> what you think important. That's how things actually happen - not
> by hoping to identify some other group to do the work, but by going
> out and doing it. Ok, though my question was serious in a way, it
> was also rhetorical. I know why you don't do it - because it is
> the same reasons that nobody else does. It's a huge job - you better
> forget about whatever other job you might have had; and yes, I'm
> assuming it would be a group project, but I still think several
> of the people better be full-time on it. And there is a high
> probability that it will be a thankless and wasted job unless you
> also can manage to "sell" the result.
>
> Along the way, you can sell ISO on adding it as an official standards
> project. But that really wouldn't be nearly as much work as selling
> implementors on implementing it and programmers on using it.
>
> So are you ready to take on organizing it and making it happen? No, I
> thought not. Neither am I, by the way, so I'm not picking on you.
> Neither is anyone else here (or elsewhere) ready to take it on that
> I've noticed. All I've seen is a lot of people asking why someone
> else doesn't do it. Therein lies the *REAL* reason it doesn't happen.
> All else is secondary.
Well, GKS covers a lot of this (basic graphics) and has the concept of
"workstations" and basic windowing and viewport capabilities. GINO
implements decent Fortran-oriented cross-platform GUI with substantial
and increasing capability, although the Windows version offers
"advanced" features not available in the LINUX/UNIX/VMS versions. Now
if you mean to scrap existing and start from scratch...
>
> --
> Richard Maine | Good judgment comes from experience;
> email: my first.last at org.domain | experience comes from bad judgment.
> org: nasa, domain: gov | -- Mark Twain
--
Gary Scott
mailto:garyscott@ev1.net
Fortran Library: http://www.fortranlib.com
Support the Original G95 Project: http://www.g95.org
-OR-
Support the GNU GFortran Project: http://gcc.gnu.org/fortran/index.html
Why are there two? God only knows.
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep, voting on what to eat for dinner...
Liberty is a well armed sheep contesting the vote. - Thomas Jefferson
| |
| Gerry Thomas 2004-06-25, 7:43 pm |
|
"Gary L. Scott" <garyscott@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:40D222ED.C77AE815@ev1.net...
[...]
>
> Well, GKS covers a lot of this (basic graphics) and has the concept of
> "workstations" and basic windowing and viewport capabilities. GINO
> implements decent Fortran-oriented cross-platform GUI with substantial
> and increasing capability, although the Windows version offers
> "advanced" features not available in the LINUX/UNIX/VMS versions. Now
> if you mean to scrap existing and start from scratch...
>
The Holy Grail of a GUI cross-platform (Windows and Linux, the rest just
don't matter) standard is C# (sure, it's ISO approved, but like The Soggy
Bottom Boys CD, it just can't be kept on the shelves). It has provision for
all extant 'features' conceived so far for modern gui's, unlike such posers
as GINO, Winteractor, Tcl/Tk, etc., and it's free so even freeloaders can
avail of it. Novell's free C#.NET runs on Windows but Microsoft's retail
C#.NET doesn't run on Linux outside of Richmond, yet.
--
You're Welcome,
Gerry T.
______
"...it's the duty of every real American to be on the lookout for
goldbricks, pinko's and fellow travelers. 'Course without the likes of
Americans like you the jobs of Americans like me would be a lot more
difficult. But don't get me wrong, Americans like me like difficult jobs.
So don't get the idea you're doing the CIA any favors. We don't really need
Americans like you, we don' need anybody." -- Col Sam Flagg, ICORPS dropin
to the 4077th M*A*S*H
| |
| Gary Scott 2004-06-25, 7:43 pm |
| "Gerry Thomas" <gfthomas@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<MaqAc.34383$nY.1101962@news20.bellglobal.com>...
> "Gary L. Scott" <garyscott@ev1.net> wrote in message
> news:40D222ED.C77AE815@ev1.net...
>
> [...]
>
>
> The Holy Grail of a GUI cross-platform (Windows and Linux, the rest just
> don't matter) standard is C# (sure, it's ISO approved, but like The Soggy
> Bottom Boys CD, it just can't be kept on the shelves). It has provision for
> all extant 'features' conceived so far for modern gui's, unlike such posers
> as GINO, Winteractor, Tcl/Tk, etc., and it's free so even freeloaders can
> avail of it. Novell's free C#.NET runs on Windows but Microsoft's retail
> C#.NET doesn't run on Linux outside of Richmond, yet.
Certainly GINO/Winteracter are "subsets" of functionality. But that
also includes the fact that the real need consists of not only "GUI"
functionality but multithreading, parallel programming support, and
other "system" programming features. I think that the vast majority
of users that can afford GINO or Winteracter are quite happy with the
GUI/graphics capabilities with some exceptions (e.g. GINO's
"spreadsheet" functionality could use some improvement (no dynamic
resizing ability) and the increasing disparity between the Windows and
Linux/Unix versions). To say that Solaris or HPUX don't matter would
ignore that businesses are quite slow to take up Linux. In fact, some
very large ones that are near and dear to my heart are racing ever
faster toward proprietary MS entangled "business" applications, but
show no sign of dumping Solaris for certain engineering tasks. Then
there's the AIX crowd over in the other building.
>
> --
> You're Welcome,
> Gerry T.
> ______
> "...it's the duty of every real American to be on the lookout for
> goldbricks, pinko's and fellow travelers. 'Course without the likes of
> Americans like you the jobs of Americans like me would be a lot more
> difficult. But don't get me wrong, Americans like me like difficult jobs.
> So don't get the idea you're doing the CIA any favors. We don't really need
> Americans like you, we don' need anybody." -- Col Sam Flagg, ICORPS dropin
> to the 4077th M*A*S*H
| |
| Richard Maine 2004-06-25, 7:43 pm |
| gary.l.scott@lmco.com (Gary Scott) writes:
> I think that the vast majority
> of users that can afford GINO or Winteracter are quite happy with the
> GUI/graphics capabilities with some exceptions...
In one of the usual scenarios, after having no money at all for half
the year, our branch suddenly got some that now has to be spent right
away. Since he trusts me not to spend it frivolously, he gave me first
dibs at it. I was going to put a copy of Winteracter on the list
until, while checking price details et al, I was reminded that it has
no Mac version. From what I hear, its a nice product (and sounds like
the support is good also), but locking in to something that won't run
on OS X is just going to cause too many problems. Heck, a good fraction
of the branch is in the middle of switching to Macs. (Making any users
of my programs install Virtual PC isn't a very viable option for us).
So I dropped it from the list of things I asked for.
--
Richard Maine | Good judgment comes from experience;
email: my first.last at org.domain | experience comes from bad judgment.
org: nasa, domain: gov | -- Mark Twain
| |
| Gordon Sande 2004-06-25, 7:43 pm |
| On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 12:15:47 -0300, Richard Maine wrote
(in article <m1llikew2k.fsf@macfortran.local> ):
> gary.l.scott@lmco.com (Gary Scott) writes:
>
>
> In one of the usual scenarios, after having no money at all for half
> the year, our branch suddenly got some that now has to be spent right
> away. Since he trusts me not to spend it frivolously, he gave me first
> dibs at it. I was going to put a copy of Winteracter on the list
> until, while checking price details et al, I was reminded that it has
> no Mac version. From what I hear, its a nice product (and sounds like
> the support is good also), but locking in to something that won't run
> on OS X is just going to cause too many problems. Heck, a good fraction
> of the branch is in the middle of switching to Macs. (Making any users
> of my programs install Virtual PC isn't a very viable option for us).
> So I dropped it from the list of things I asked for.
>
Ahem to that brother! (Ah yes. The mid year follies as the first cut
at budget rationalizations come through. No - its the three quarter
follies as the second round of making sure nothing goes unspent arrives.
Note to our friend on sympatico.ca - the US gubermint is merely foolish
on this but the Canajien crowd are truly outrageous on the year end
rules on spending cash. Been there and have watched both crowds in
action. From what I heard from various European colleagues the same
nonsense happens over there as well.)
I believe that both GINO and InterActer had versions that supported
X-11 on Unix so supporting Mac Os X (a nice BSD Unix at heart) with
a slick implementation of X-11 should conceptually be a simple
exercise. There are even three Fortran vendors - Absoft, IBM and NAG
so there must be some number of customers out there. Or is just that
Mac folks have very high standards and the vendors have weak hearts.
| |
| Gary L. Scott 2004-06-25, 7:43 pm |
| Richard Maine wrote:
>
> gary.l.scott@lmco.com (Gary Scott) writes:
>
>
> In one of the usual scenarios, after having no money at all for half
> the year, our branch suddenly got some that now has to be spent right
> away. Since he trusts me not to spend it frivolously, he gave me first
> dibs at it. I was going to put a copy of Winteracter on the list
> until, while checking price details et al, I was reminded that it has
> no Mac version. From what I hear, its a nice product (and sounds like
> the support is good also), but locking in to something that won't run
> on OS X is just going to cause too many problems. Heck, a good fraction
> of the branch is in the middle of switching to Macs. (Making any users
> of my programs install Virtual PC isn't a very viable option for us).
> So I dropped it from the list of things I asked for.
>
I'm sure if there were enough customers, they would port it. Interacter
is no longer actively supported for UNIX either I believe because of
insufficient business base. GINO still is but falls further behind the
windows version with each release.
> --
> Richard Maine | Good judgment comes from experience;
> email: my first.last at org.domain | experience comes from bad judgment.
> org: nasa, domain: gov | -- Mark Twain
--
Gary Scott
mailto:garyscott@ev1.net
Fortran Library: http://www.fortranlib.com
Support the Original G95 Project: http://www.g95.org
-OR-
Support the GNU GFortran Project: http://gcc.gnu.org/fortran/index.html
Why are there two? God only knows.
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep, voting on what to eat for dinner...
Liberty is a well armed sheep contesting the vote. - Thomas Jefferson
| |
| Gerry Thomas 2004-06-25, 7:43 pm |
|
"Gordon Sande" <g.sande@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:gpEAc.6897$vO1.56947@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
> Note to our friend on sympatico.ca - the US gubermint is merely foolish
> on this but the Canajien crowd are truly outrageous on the year end
> rules on spending cash.
I'm sure you're trying your best to be witty but you just don't have what
it takes. Anyways, it looks likes your friend is poised to bring you the
best of both worlds: http://www.frankmagazine.ca/
--
You're Welcome,
Gerry T.
______
"The enemy is anybody who's going to get you killed, no matter which side
he's on." -- Yossarian, in Catch 22.
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