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Confessions of a CoBOL programmer
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| In article <9q9qu35lpv209ksgt2rjuiioju662okf4o@4ax.com>,
Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> wrote:
>http://www.computerworld.com/action...ticleId=9062478
From the above:
--begin quoted text:
In a 2007 Micro Focus survey of its customers, more than 75% of CIOs said
they would need more Cobol programmers over the next five years, and 73%
were already having a hard time finding trained Cobol professionals.
--end quoted text
Never mind that Micro Focus is looking to sell various products... note,
once again, the 'already having a hard time finding trained Cobol
professionals'.
At what rate (or range of rates)?
(If it is true that Everyone Knows the population having (skill) is older
and Everyone Knows that older workers frequently command higher salaries
then Everyone Knows the population having (skill) may frequently command
higher salaries... on the other hand... the ability of those human-being
type folks to deny what seem to be logically valid conclusions has been
seen before... let me see... nigh a decade back, from
<http://groups.google.com/group/comp...49?dmode=source>
--begin quoted text:
On what do I base my conclusion? Why... on A Story, of course...
apochryphal, perhaps, but Eminently Plausible:
A corporate seminar on drug-abuse in the workplace was being addressed by
a speaker. He began by asking 'How many of you think that drug abuse is a
problem in your community?'
The audience, suits, corner-office-dwellers and their sycophants,
dutifully raised hands... this is something Everyone Knows, right?
The speaker continued, quackity quack, woof woof... and then asked 'Now,
how many of you think that your workforce accurately reflects the
composition of your community?'
Again hands went up... as they'd damned well *better*, otherwise a hurkin'
great EEO lawsuit comes down the pike. Anyhow, the speaker then drones
on, blurbity blurble, honk honk wheet... and then asks 'Now, how many of
you think that drug abuse is a problem in your workforce?'
No hands go up.
--end quoted text
DD
| |
| Alistair 2008-03-28, 6:55 pm |
| On 28 Mar, 18:32, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
> In article <9q9qu35lpv209ksgt2rjuiioju662ok...@4ax.com>,
> Howard Brazee =A0<how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>
..[color=darkred]
>
> From the above:
>
> --begin quoted text:
>
> In a 2007 Micro Focus survey of its customers, more than 75% of CIOs said
> they would need more Cobol programmers over the next five years, and 73%
> were already having a hard time finding trained Cobol professionals.
>
> --end quoted text
>
> Never mind that Micro Focus is looking to sell various products... note,
> once again, the 'already having a hard time finding trained Cobol
> professionals'.
>
> At what rate (or range of rates)? =A0
>
Where I work (yes someone gave me a job) they can not get Cobol
programmers under the age of 50 (I am the youngest at 50).
| |
| Howard Brazee 2008-03-28, 6:55 pm |
| On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:32:16 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf@panix.com () wrote:
>(If it is true that Everyone Knows the population having (skill) is older
>and Everyone Knows that older workers frequently command higher salaries
>then Everyone Knows the population having (skill) may frequently command
>higher salaries... on the other hand... the ability of those human-being
>type folks to deny what seem to be logically valid conclusions has been
>seen before... let me see... nigh a decade back, from
><http://groups.google.com/group/comp...49?dmode=source>
I see your point, and I love your story that I started to quote below.
But I'm not sure that I get the same definitive lesson.
For instance, everybody raising their hand to accept the premises but
not the logical conclusion could be because they were wrong in
accepting the premises.
Or it could be that the definitions of "problems a community has" and
"problems that a company has" are related.
Of course, that might be your point.
>--begin quoted text:
>
>On what do I base my conclusion? Why... on A Story, of course...
>apochryphal, perhaps, but Eminently Plausible:
>
>A corporate seminar on drug-abuse in the workplace was being addressed by
>a speaker. He began by asking 'How many of you think that drug abuse is a
>problem in your community?'
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| In article <ac5d2762-1789-4696-8918-8b00948bc141@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 28 Mar, 18:32, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
>
>Where I work (yes someone gave me a job) they can not get Cobol
>programmers under the age of 50 (I am the youngest at 50).
Have they tried doubling their rates? Have they offered programmers in
other languages training in COBOL... with a bonus and pay-rise upon
completion of the course so they don't get hired away?
DD
| |
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| In article <cfgqu3tl6n58nukfgug5lvsqpjbqsfvurf@4ax.com>,
Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:32:16 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf@panix.com () wrote:
>
>
>I see your point, and I love your story that I started to quote below.
>But I'm not sure that I get the same definitive lesson.
>
>For instance, everybody raising their hand to accept the premises but
>not the logical conclusion could be because they were wrong in
>accepting the premises.
Mr Brazee, that would appear to indicate that they misrepresented their
thoughts - 'how many of you think' - or that their thoughts had changed
during the short course of the presentation.
'How many of you think that all men are mortal?' (hands up)
'How many of you think that Socrates is a man?' (hands up)
'How many of you think that Socrates is mortal?' 'Uh..... maybe I was
wrong when I said I thought all men are mortal... or maybe Socrates isn't
a man now.'
>
>Or it could be that the definitions of "problems a community has" and
>"problems that a company has" are related.
>
>Of course, that might be your point.
What I attempted to demonstrate, Mr Brazee, was that the logical abilities
demonstrated by some folks in Corporate America can reach levels of
refusing to accept things which 'follow of necessity'.
(note - Aristotle, Prior Analytics, Book I, Part 1, paragraph 4, sentence
1: 'A syllogism is discourse in which, certain things being stated,
something other than what is stated follows of necessity from their being
so. I mean by the last phrase that they produce the consequence, and by
this, that no further term is required from without in order to make the
consequence necessary.' - http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/prior.mb.txt )
DD
| |
| Frank Swarbrick 2008-03-28, 6:56 pm |
| >>> On 3/28/2008 at 12:47 PM, in message
<ac5d2762-1789-4696-8918-8b00948bc141@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
Alistair<alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 28 Mar, 18:32, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
>http://www.computerworld.com/action...intArticleBa...
> said
>
> Where I work (yes someone gave me a job) they can not get Cobol
> programmers under the age of 50 (I am the youngest at 50).
Looking around and doing a bit of guessing about ages, our Cobol programmers
fall in the following age groups:
30's - 5
40's - 8
50's - 4
60's - 2
Something interesting to note is that nine of us were in other areas of the
company prior to joining the programming department. All nine fall in to
the under-fifty group.
Frank
| |
| Bill Gunshannon 2008-03-28, 9:56 pm |
| In article <ac5d2762-1789-4696-8918-8b00948bc141@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> writes:
> On 28 Mar, 18:32, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
> Where I work (yes someone gave me a job) they can not get Cobol
> programmers under the age of 50 (I am the youngest at 50).
What's wrong with programmers over 50?
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
| |
|
| In article <655fquF2dfn1uU1@mid.individual.net>,
Bill Gunshannon <billg999@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:
[snip]
>What's wrong with programmers over 50?
That depends on one's criteria for 'wrong', Mr Gunshannon. Some people
might say that the ability to look a Corner Office Idiot in the eye and
say 'Your 'wonderful innovation' is something I saw at (othercorp) a
couple of decades back; it failed then because of (etc)' is something so
very Wrong that such a person should not be employed by the organisation.
Other people might say 'a person under 35 increases the company's
insurance premium by ($n) less than a person over 45; hiring Just Another
Programmer who'll cost the company more is wrong.'
And, of course there's always what was mentioned earlier in the thread,
along the lines of 'older workers have more experience, people with more
experience cost more money, spending more money is wrong.'
On the other hand... if Everyone Knows that hiring older workers is a
good, profitable manuever, benefitting both the worker and the
organisation so that the organisation gains enough from the worker's
experience that the extra amount spent is well-rewarded...
.... then the Free Market would not have required anyone to even *think* of
passing laws like the Age Discrimination in Employment Act (ADEA) of 1967
or the Age Discrimination Act of 1975 or the amendment of the ADEA in 1986
or... need I continue? There's so very much seen as 'wrong' about hiring
and retaining older workers that cases go to the United States Supreme
Court about it.
DD
| |
| Alistair 2008-03-28, 9:56 pm |
| On 28 Mar, 21:47, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
> In article <ac5d2762-1789-4696-8918-8b00948bc...@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.=
com>,
>
>
>
>
>
> Alistair =A0<alist...@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
a...[color=darkred]
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,[color=darkred]
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>
> Have they tried doubling their rates?
As a man who has consistently avoided promotion to management you
should realise that that is a no-no.
?=A0Have they offered programmers in
> other languages training in COBOL... with a bonus and pay-rise upon
> completion of the course so they don't get hired away?
>
The java programmers aren't interested.
| |
|
| In article <d789160e-c53f-4eb3-85c3-c85c2abdd6f6@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 28 Mar, 21:47, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
><ac5d2762-1789-4696-8918-8b00948bc...@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
>
>As a man who has consistently avoided promotion to management you
>should realise that that is a no-no.
As a man who has seen a bit of the business world I come to believe there
is a difference between 'I can find no (x)' and 'I can find no (x) which
cost less than (amount)'.
>
>?_Have they offered programmers in
>
>
>The java programmers aren't interested.
The next batch might be when it is made a hiring-requirement.
DD
| |
| Alistair 2008-03-28, 9:56 pm |
| On 28 Mar, 22:06, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
>
> 'How many of you think that all men are mortal?' (hands up)
> 'How many of you think that Socrates is a man?' (hands up)
> 'How many of you think that Socrates is mortal?' =A0'Uh..... maybe I was
> wrong when I said I thought all men are mortal... or maybe Socrates isn't
> a man now.'
Tsk! Tsk! Even you should know better than to ask these questions.
Men ARE mortal.
Socrates WAS a man.
Socrates has been proven to be mortal (for most peoples' value of
PROVEN).
>
>
>
>
>
> What I attempted to demonstrate, Mr Brazee, was that the logical abilities=
> demonstrated by some folks in Corporate America can reach levels of
> refusing to accept things which 'follow of necessity'.
>
> (note - Aristotle, Prior Analytics, Book I, Part 1, paragraph 4, sentence
> 1: 'A syllogism is discourse in which, certain things being stated,
> something other than what is stated follows of necessity from their being
> so. I mean by the last phrase that they produce the consequence, and by
> this, that no further term is required from without in order to make the
> consequence necessary.' -http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/prior.mb.txt)
Have you been a student of philosophy or should I be enquiring as to
how you can afford the time to research all of your answers? Not that
answering a question (or non-question) with a question is indeed an
answer.
| |
| Alistair 2008-03-28, 9:56 pm |
| On 29 Mar, 00:12, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> In article <ac5d2762-1789-4696-8918-8b00948bc...@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.=
com>,
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Alistair <alist...@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
>
>
>
>
>
a...[color=darkred]
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id[color=darkred]
%[color=darkred]
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,[color=darkred]
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> What's wrong with programmers over 50?
>
> bill
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. =
=A0Three wolves
> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton =A0 |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include <std.disclaimer.h> =
=A0- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Nothing, just that YOU are all  old opinionated gits!
| |
|
| In article <92694c30-327e-42b4-9026-3adcea8d0b3f@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 28 Mar, 22:06, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
>
>Tsk! Tsk! Even you should know better than to ask these questions.
>
>Men ARE mortal.
>Socrates WAS a man.
>Socrates has been proven to be mortal (for most peoples' value of
>PROVEN).
Mr Maclean, might it be possible that the questions I posed referred to a
Socrates who is still alive today? The name is not unique, last I looked.
[snip]
>
>Have you been a student of philosophy or should I be enquiring as to
>how you can afford the time to research all of your answers?
I have read a few things on the backs of several cereal-boxes here and
there, Mr Maclean... no, wait, Prior Analytics would be on the front, on
the back one should find Posterior Analytics. This wonderful web-thingie
allows for rapid research and citing, yes... but the old form of 'Author,
Title, (publisher, edition, printing), book, chapter, section, paragraph,
sentence, word' for citing was one I learned long before it existed.
DD
| |
| Charles Hottel 2008-03-29, 3:55 am |
|
"Alistair" <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:d789160e-c53f-4eb3-85c3-c85c2abdd6f6@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On 28 Mar, 21:47, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
> In article
> <ac5d2762-1789-4696-8918-8b00948bc...@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
>
>
> Alistair <alist...@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Have they tried doubling their rates?
As a man who has consistently avoided promotion to management you
should realise that that is a no-no.
? Have they offered programmers in
> other languages training in COBOL... with a bonus and pay-rise upon
> completion of the course so they don't get hired away?
>
The java programmers aren't interested.
Just like automotive engineers don't want to learn how to shoe a horse.
| |
| Alistair 2008-03-29, 6:58 pm |
| On 28 Mar, 21:47, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
> In article <ac5d2762-1789-4696-8918-8b00948bc...@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.=
com>,
>
>
>
>
>
> Alistair =A0<alist...@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
a...[color=darkred]
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,[color=darkred]
>
>
>
> Have they tried doubling their rates? =A0Have they offered programmers in
> other languages training in COBOL... with a bonus and pay-rise upon
> completion of the course so they don't get hired away?
>
I suspect that the Java programmers would walk out en masse if offered
the opportunity to retrain.
| |
| Alistair 2008-03-29, 6:59 pm |
| On 29 Mar, 00:12, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> In article <ac5d2762-1789-4696-8918-8b00948bc...@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.=
com>,
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Alistair <alist...@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> What's wrong with programmers over 50?
>
Nothing. 50 is a good age to be (just coming into my prime).
| |
| Alistair 2008-03-29, 7:00 pm |
| On 29 Mar, 01:13, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
> In article <92694c30-327e-42b4-9026-3adcea8d0...@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.=
com>,
>
> Alistair =A0<alist...@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
s[color=darkred]
't[color=darkred]
>
>
>
> Mr Maclean, might it be possible that the questions I posed referred to a
> Socrates who is still alive today? =A0The name is not unique, last I looke=
d.
Now you come to mention it, I do recall seeing a Socrates playing
football (soccer to you, and I don't know which team he played for
either). Conceivably there may be many female Socrates too.
>
> I have read a few things on the backs of several cereal-boxes here and
> there, Mr Maclean... no, wait, Prior Analytics would be on the front, on
> the back one should find Posterior Analytics. =A0This wonderful web-thingi=
e
> allows for rapid research and citing, yes... but the old form of 'Author,
> Title, (publisher, edition, printing), book, chapter, section, paragraph,
> sentence, word' for citing was one I learned long before it existed.
So it is down to t'web and not any edikashun you have been subjected
to? I suppose answering an answer with a question is no question/
answer either.
| |
| HeyBub 2008-03-30, 3:59 am |
| docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
> As a man who has seen a bit of the business world I come to believe
> there
> is a difference between 'I can find no (x)' and 'I can find no (x)
> which
> cost less than (amount)'.
Put it another way: "There is no shortage of COBOL programmers; there's
only a shortage of CHEAP COBOL programmers."
| |
| HeyBub 2008-03-30, 3:59 am |
| Alistair wrote:
>
> I suspect that the Java programmers would walk out en masse if offered
> the opportunity to retrain.
Yeah. It's hard to do FLAMES in COBOL.
| |
|
| In article <13uttm8t9e3sg82@corp.supernews.com>,
HeyBub <heybub@gmail.com> wrote:
>docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
>Put it another way: "There is no shortage of COBOL programmers; there's
>only a shortage of CHEAP COBOL programmers."
Or, to tie it into another portion of the thread... 'There is no shortage
of COBOL programmers, there is a shortage of COBOL programmers willing to
accept (wage)... and capable of turning out Good Work... and turning it
out Fast... and young... unmarried is nice, too... should we institute a
No Pets policy?'
DD
| |
|
| In article <07c41e08-dbff-452e-aa7e-c9abd2c9551e@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 28 Mar, 21:47, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
><ac5d2762-1789-4696-8918-8b00948bc...@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
[snip]
[color=darkred]
>
>I suspect that the Java programmers would walk out en masse if offered
>the opportunity to retrain.
Then it might be best if the order is not made en masse. Consider what
might happen if a single Java-jockey gets made an offer... you can keep
doing what all the other coders are doing or you can take this course...
and if you pass it you get a bonus and a pay-rise, once you finish (n)
months of work with the COBOL team.
Training... money... and 'an end in sight'. I believe that someone in the
crew would agree to it... and maybe others, once they see that the first
did not die or suffer grave disfigurement... and then...
.... and then, (y) months after finishing (n) months with the COBOL team...
they get introduced to that wonderful Corporate Tradition of 'Well, you
touched it once, at one point, and we need it worked on again, now...'
DD
| |
|
| In article <a1e968be-0f15-489c-8074-7d5a795daf38@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 29 Mar, 01:13, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
><92694c30-327e-42b4-9026-3adcea8d0...@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
[snip]
>
>So it is down to t'web and not any edikashun you have been subjected
>to? I suppose answering an answer with a question is no question/
>answer either.
Questions and answers can alternate rather nicely, Mr Maclean... I've
studied a few things in a few places, some formally, some informally...
and they all have the same thing in common in that they all show me how
much more studying I would find to be pleasureable. I've read, among
others, portions of Euclid, Plato, Aristotle, the Old and New Testaments,
La Rouchefoucauld, Moliere, Schiller, Mozart, Nietzsche, Darwin, Freud,
Maxwell, Einstein and a few others in the original... I'm not sure if
makes me to have been a student of geometry, philosophy, natural
philosophy (science), religion, more philosophy, drama, music, more
philosophy, science, psychology, electromagnetic theory or relativity.
But... what matters it what I've read? Long ago I heard an aphorism,
'Some scholars are like donkeys, all they do is carry a load of books'...
and it struck me that one might carry such a load on one's back or between
one's ears. If all one is doing is carrying... then it seems donkey-work
all the same.
DD
| |
| Robert 2008-03-30, 4:00 am |
| On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 21:11:30 -0500, "HeyBub" <heybub@gmail.com> wrote:
>docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
>Put it another way: "There is no shortage of COBOL programmers; there's
>only a shortage of CHEAP COBOL programmers."
Java and C# programmers cost more than Cobol programmers -- $60 vs. 45.
| |
| Michael Mattias 2008-03-30, 6:56 pm |
| "HeyBub" <heybub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:13uttm8t9e3sg82@corp.supernews.com...
> docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
> Put it another way: "There is no shortage of COBOL programmers; there's
> only a shortage of CHEAP COBOL programmers."
Nobody wants "cheap."
Everyone wants "inexpensive."
Unfortunately you often can't tell the difference until AFTER you buy.
MCM
| |
| SkippyPB 2008-03-30, 6:57 pm |
| On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 23:25:59 -0600, Robert <no@e.mail> wrote:
>On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 21:11:30 -0500, "HeyBub" <heybub@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>Java and C# programmers cost more than Cobol programmers -- $60 vs. 45.
They're over-priced.
Regards,
////
(o o)
-oOO--(_)--OOo-
"He treats us like men. He lets us wear earrings."
-- Torrin Polk, University of Houston receiver,
on his coach, John Jenkins
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Remove nospam to email me.
Steve
| |
| SkippyPB 2008-03-30, 6:57 pm |
| On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 12:05:53 -0700 (PDT), Alistair
<alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 29 Mar, 00:12, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>
>Nothing. 50 is a good age to be (just coming into my prime).
And 60 is prime!
Regards,
////
(o o)
-oOO--(_)--OOo-
"He treats us like men. He lets us wear earrings."
-- Torrin Polk, University of Houston receiver,
on his coach, John Jenkins
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Remove nospam to email me.
Steve
| |
| Doug Miller 2008-03-30, 6:57 pm |
| In article <4revu3d0j4v301in4js450l7ng7gdc85gn@4ax.com>, SkippyPB <swiegand@nospam.neo.rr.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 12:05:53 -0700 (PDT), Alistair
><alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> <ac5d2762-1789-4696-8918-8b00948bc...@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
>
>And 60 is prime!
No, it's composite.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphag at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
| |
| HeyBub 2008-03-31, 3:57 am |
| SkippyPB wrote:
>
> They're over-priced.
>
> Regards,
Not if you need flames. And smiley-faces that jump up and down.
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| Howard Brazee 2008-03-31, 6:57 pm |
| On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 21:47:46 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf@panix.com () wrote:
>
>Have they tried doubling their rates? Have they offered programmers in
>other languages training in COBOL... with a bonus and pay-rise upon
>completion of the course so they don't get hired away?
A large reason that companies are switching from CoBOL is that they
can find already-trained programmers in other languages without
doubling their rates.
Money always enters in to the equation.
| |
| SkippyPB 2008-03-31, 6:58 pm |
| On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 19:48:45 -0500, "HeyBub" <heybub@gmail.com> wrote:
>SkippyPB wrote:
>
>Not if you need flames. And smiley-faces that jump up and down.
>
Yeah, there is that :)
Regards,
////
(o o)
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"Save the whales. Collect the whole set."
-- Steven Wright
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Steve
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