Cobol - Re: What do you do with your old computers?

Author

Re: What do you do with your old computers?

HeyBub

2008-03-04, 9:56 pm

Pete Dashwood wrote:

[...]
>
> As noted above, if you decide to leverage some of your "old"
> equipment and hit problems, I'm really happy to help. This has been a
> really fun project... :-)
>

Cool. If you want a hobby. With lickty-split computers, pre-laden with
Vista, available for under $300, it's not economical to put a 386 machine on
life-support.

You could donate grandpa computer to a school, but the computer doesn't have
any software and the school will forever be calling you up for help. Besides
which, the paperwork for a tax deduction is overwhelming. Many
municipalities forbid putting them in the trash and recycling centers
sometimes demand you pay a fee to take them.

No, the only thing you can do with ancient computers is to leave them in a
school yard during the dark of the moon. I've done this several times, and
even once with a refrigerator. Works swell.

Robert

2008-03-05, 3:55 am

Pete Dashwood

2008-03-05, 3:55 am

"HeyBub" <heybub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:13ss610qeihllca@corp.supernews.com...
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> Cool. If you want a hobby. With lickty-split computers, pre-laden with
> Vista, available for under $300, it's not economical to put a 386 machine
> on life-support.

Actually, I never suggested using a 386 machine, although I would if it made
sense. Pentium 3 (petesp3 is actually an AMD equivalent) on the other hand
is quite a serious processor. How can spending $300 be more "economical"
than spending nothing :-)?

You would have to pay ME $300 to take a machine with Vista on it,
"lickety-split" or otherwise... (Did you see the recently released email
exchanges between senior MS executives, regarding Vista? Glad to know that
the user community was not the only sector affected by this farce. I like MS
and I use their products regularly, with a high degree of satisfaction, but
Vista is just a joke... Hopefully, Windows 7 will rectify the damage. If it
doesn't, I'll be going Linux.)
>
> You could donate grandpa computer to a school, but the computer doesn't
> have any software and the school will forever be calling you up for help.

Also, the batteries on the really old machines no longer function, so they
require mains power. Kind of inconvenient for a notebook... :-)

> Besides which, the paperwork for a tax deduction is overwhelming.

Hmmm... that's a point I hadn't considered. As my earnings have been close
to negligible in the last tax year, it isn't a problem, but definitely worth
considering once I start generating revenue again.

>Many municipalities forbid putting them in the trash and recycling centers
>sometimes demand you pay a fee to take them.

That was one of the factors that which made me consider re-use as a viable
option. It is the main reason they are sitting in the attic...
>
> No, the only thing you can do with ancient computers is to leave them in a
> school yard during the dark of the moon. I've done this several times, and
> even once with a refrigerator. Works swell.

In Texas, I'm surprised they didn't use them for moonlight target practice;
a refrigerator would be very visible in a playground...:-)

I'm not suggesting people shouldn't buy new equipment. More that, as
computer professionals, we should be able to leverage more use out of the
equipment we have.

Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."

Pete Dashwood

2008-03-05, 3:55 am

"Robert" <no@e.mail> wrote in message
news:mc7ss39hgdgffm3n30q93ep1tp69is4k5k@
4ax.com...
> On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 21:48:54 -0600, "HeyBub" <heybub@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> You offer it on freecycle.org. Someone will come to your door, at your
> convenience, and
> haul it away. I've cleared out a whole apartment in one day. It's amazing
> what they'll
> take.

Not seen that, Robert. It sounds like a very good idea.

Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."

SkippyPB

2008-03-05, 6:56 pm

On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 21:48:54 -0600, "HeyBub" <heybub@gmail.com> wrote:

>Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>Cool. If you want a hobby. With lickty-split computers, pre-laden with
>Vista, available for under $300, it's not economical to put a 386 machine on
>life-support.
>
>You could donate grandpa computer to a school, but the computer doesn't have
>any software and the school will forever be calling you up for help. Besides
>which, the paperwork for a tax deduction is overwhelming. Many
>municipalities forbid putting them in the trash and recycling centers
>sometimes demand you pay a fee to take them.
>
>No, the only thing you can do with ancient computers is to leave them in a
>school yard during the dark of the moon. I've done this several times, and
>even once with a refrigerator. Works swell.
>

Where I live we have a hazardous waste recycling center that is open
from spring until late fall. I've "donated" an old DOS laptop and a
couple of desktop computers to it over the years. I keep my computers
until they just become totally inept at doing anything or no worth
upgrading, i.e., the motherboard can't take a faster, more powerful
chip.

However I still own and have stored in my closet waiting for the day
when I can build my own computer room, a C64 and a C64-C Commodore
computers.

A note to Pete. About your printing issue. I recall seeing a Lexmark
(I believe it was) printer that had a wireless interface built into it
so that it could be shared by all your computers without the need for
cabling. You may want to look into that option if they are available
in New Zealand.

Regards,
////
(o o)
-oOO--(_)--OOo-

"He's like a pit bull. He's great if you have burglar, but if you
don't, he might eat your kids."
-- Chris Rock describing Rudy Giuliani
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Remove nospam to email me.

Steve

Pete Dashwood

2008-03-05, 6:56 pm

"SkippyPB" <swiegand@nospam.neo.rr.com> wrote in message
news:ujjts3d61tt3hhajqheg3pj8q3406dj00s@
4ax.com...
> On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 21:48:54 -0600, "HeyBub" <heybub@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>

> However I still own and have stored in my closet waiting for the day
> when I can build my own computer room, a C64 and a C64-C Commodore
> computers.
>
Ah, somewhere amongst the carnage that is my "stuff" I have an Amiga with a
PC bridgeboard. Happy days... :-)

> A note to Pete. About your printing issue. I recall seeing a Lexmark
> (I believe it was) printer that had a wireless interface built into it
> so that it could be shared by all your computers without the need for
> cabling.

That, to me, seems eminently sensible. I have an Epson Stylus CX3100. It is
also a scanner and it is quite a big machine. With my new "LAN node" setup
the cabling isn't a problem; it is located alongside the Win 98 notebook
(petesp3) that drives the "node", so a physical connection is no problem. I
put all the wires (the USB hub with wireless adapter, the printer, and the
new disk drive, plus the power leads and everything) into a cardboard box,
which keeps all the wires off the floor, avoids having ot look at a tangled
mess of wires, and allows my housekeeper to vacuum without ripping out my
LAN :-). The whole thing looks quite tidy and sits in the guest room of the
house.

I don't need to have it on all the time, but it is easy to boot up petesp3
when I need to do backups or print, and soon, when I need the answerphone
on.

A wireless printer would be good; in fact, I reckon anything that reduces
wiring has to be a bonus. (I'd like to see the same for stereo/TV
connections... there probably is something but I haven't seen it. Wireless
is the way to go.

>You may want to look into that option if they are available
> in New Zealand.

When time comes to replace the printer, I certainly shall. Thanks.

Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."

HeyBub

2008-03-05, 6:56 pm

Pete Dashwood wrote:
> "HeyBub" <heybub@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:13ss610qeihllca@corp.supernews.com...
>
> Actually, I never suggested using a 386 machine, although I would if
> it made sense. Pentium 3 (petesp3 is actually an AMD equivalent) on
> the other hand is quite a serious processor. How can spending $300 be
> more "economical" than spending nothing :-)?

The same way that driving across two county lines to save twenty-five cents
on a bunch of bananas is. But see below.

>
> You would have to pay ME $300 to take a machine with Vista on it,
> "lickety-split" or otherwise... (Did you see the recently released
> email exchanges between senior MS executives, regarding Vista? Glad
> to know that the user community was not the only sector affected by
> this farce. I like MS and I use their products regularly, with a high
> degree of satisfaction, but Vista is just a joke... Hopefully,
> Windows 7 will rectify the damage. If it doesn't, I'll be going
> Linux.)

Consider the book: "Systems of Survival." The author makes the point that an
appropriate commercial mindset is "Dissent for the sake of the task," in
which disaffection and controversy make for a better product. Contrary-wise,
the guardian syndrome is "Assent for the sake of the task."

Linux has (according to the last statistics I've seen) 0.86% of the desktop
market. But, given your proclivity for breathing life into expired
non-living things, you might be quite comfortable with a knock-off of a
40-year old operating system designed by a money-losing division of the
telephone company and enhanced by troglodytes who earnestly believed the
DOS-command line was not archaic enough.

If you're not using Vista, then you're suckin' hind tit.

And I'm not just saying that because I'm a Micros~1 stockholder.

>
> Hmmm... that's a point I hadn't considered. As my earnings have been
> close to negligible in the last tax year, it isn't a problem, but
> definitely worth considering once I start generating revenue again.

Your earnings are negligible because you spend your productive hours
refurbishing antiquated computers, electric typewriters, and manual
butter-churns. If I had that much spare time, I'd stand on the side of the
road with a sign: "Will work for sex."

It's much more efficient just to pay for three minutes.

>
> I'm not suggesting people shouldn't buy new equipment. More that, as
> computer professionals, we should be able to leverage more use out of
> the equipment we have.

You may have a point. I once saw an article that advocated making developers
use the crappiest machines that could still light up so the developers would
have an appreciation for the user's experience.

tlmfru

2008-03-05, 6:56 pm

HeyBub <heybub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:13suapdaaku1v30@corp.supernews.com...
>
> Linux has (according to the last statistics I've seen) 0.86% of the
desktop
> market. But, given your proclivity for breathing life into expired
> non-living things, you might be quite comfortable with a knock-off of a
> 40-year old operating system designed by a money-losing division of the
> telephone company and enhanced by troglodytes who earnestly believed the
> DOS-command line was not archaic enough.
>
> If you're not using Vista, then you're suckin' hind tit.
>
> And I'm not just saying that because I'm a Micros~1 stockholder.
>

<snip>

> Your earnings are negligible because you spend your productive hours
> refurbishing antiquated computers, electric typewriters, and manual
> butter-churns. If I had that much spare time, I'd stand on the side of the
> road with a sign: "Will work for sex."
>
> It's much more efficient just to pay for three minutes.
>

Man, you are making far too much of this. (Or is it another "joke" that I'm
too dim to see?) PD decribed a useful process which has enhanced his
knowledge and made more use of what he's got. In the abstract, the more you
know the better off you ALWAYS are: even if right now you can't tell how it
will be useful. But you seem to be taking offense at the notions that
anybody should jib at spending money when they don't want to (and don't have
to), and that people want to know for themselves. You should probably live
in Huxley's "Brave New World" where the mantra is "replace, not repair". If
I have a choice of consultants, I'll take the one who has messed his hands
up like this as well as worked with the latest and greatest over the one who
hasn't.

PL

Pete Dashwood

2008-03-05, 6:56 pm

"HeyBub" <heybub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:13suapdaaku1v30@corp.supernews.com...
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
> The same way that driving across two county lines to save twenty-five
> cents on a bunch of bananas is. But see below.
>

I understand your gasoline cost could be more than 25c, but with the $300 I
can do it WITHOUT driving across two county lines. The bananas are sitting
ignored in my refrigerator.

>
>
> Consider the book: "Systems of Survival." The author makes the point that
> an appropriate commercial mindset is "Dissent for the sake of the task,"
> in which disaffection and controversy make for a better product.
> Contrary-wise, the guardian syndrome is "Assent for the sake of the task."
>
> Linux has (according to the last statistics I've seen) 0.86% of the
> desktop market. But, given your proclivity for breathing life into expired
> non-living things, you might be quite comfortable with a knock-off of a
> 40-year old operating system designed by a money-losing division of the
> telephone company and enhanced by troglodytes who earnestly believed the
> DOS-command line was not archaic enough.

:-)

I'll see, if the need arises...

>
> If you're not using Vista, then you're suckin' hind tit.

But it tastes sooooooo good......... :-)

>
> And I'm not just saying that because I'm a Micros~1 stockholder.
>

Because you're a satisfied Vista user? Get together with all the other
satisfied Vista users in your community, I'm sure there's a handy phone box
where you could have a meeting :-)

>
>
> Your earnings are negligible because you spend your productive hours
> refurbishing antiquated computers, electric typewriters, and manual
> butter-churns.

Not at all. My earnings have been negligible because I didn't need to
generate any more money and chose to take time out for a year and relax and
enjoy the summer, instead. Besides, the tax breaks are great...:-) I have to
admit, the butter churns were not a great seller...:-)

I can't quite afford to retire permanently just yet, but I almost can. (If
not for an expensive divorce some years back I would've retired years ago).

It is important to maintain balance between life and work. Both are
important.

> If I had that much spare time, I'd stand on the side of the road with a
> sign: "Will work for sex."

Sigh... some of us have to work for sex all of our lives, Jerry :-)

>
> It's much more efficient just to pay for three minutes.
>

This from a man who won't drive across two county lines to save on
bananas... :-)

>
>
>
> You may have a point. I once saw an article that advocated making
> developers use the crappiest machines that could still light up so the
> developers would have an appreciation for the user's experience.

Thank you. I'm definitely in favour of developers having the user
experience, but perhaps not quite so drastically as to give them worn out
tools...:-)
>

Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."

>

Pete Dashwood

2008-03-05, 6:56 pm

"tlmfru" <lacey@mts.net> wrote in message
news:ICGzj.11746$f8.3545@newsfe23.lga...
>
> HeyBub <heybub@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:13suapdaaku1v30@corp.supernews.com...
> desktop
>
> <snip>
>
>
> Man, you are making far too much of this. (Or is it another "joke" that
> I'm
> too dim to see?) PD decribed a useful process which has enhanced his
> knowledge and made more use of what he's got. In the abstract, the more
> you
> know the better off you ALWAYS are: even if right now you can't tell how
> it
> will be useful. But you seem to be taking offense at the notions that
> anybody should jib at spending money when they don't want to (and don't
> have
> to), and that people want to know for themselves. You should probably
> live
> in Huxley's "Brave New World" where the mantra is "replace, not repair".
> If
> I have a choice of consultants, I'll take the one who has messed his hands
> up like this as well as worked with the latest and greatest over the one
> who
> hasn't.
>
> PL
>

Thanks for the support, Peter.

I agree with you regarding which consultant I'd rather have, and I
emphatically agree there is no such thing as "useless knowledge".

(There may be knowledge you haven't found a use for yet... but you never
know. :-) I once won a quiz show and a holiday in Fiji just because I
happened to retain a piece of otherwise completely useless trivia from years
before. I've never forgotten that "Hallellujah!" feeling when the compere
asked the question, and I realised I knew the answer... :-) My Dad, now long
deceased, installed in me the "yearning for learning" and I have kept it
throughout my life. I believe it is sinful to not want to know, and I try to
be a righteous man... :-)).

I think HeyBub (a self-confessed MS stock holder) was a bit piqued at my
attack on Vista. He has a wicked sense of humour and his posts are always
worth reading. I'm sure there's no malice in it :-)

Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."

2008-03-05, 9:55 pm

In article <638rvkF2673qaU1@mid.individual.net>,
Pete Dashwood <dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote:

[snip]

>I agree with you regarding which consultant I'd rather have, and I
>emphatically agree there is no such thing as "useless knowledge".

'Use' (from 'uti') and 'knowledge' (from 'gnosis') may or may not be made
to relate to each other.

>
>(There may be knowledge you haven't found a use for yet... but you never
>know. :-)

I was taught something along the lines of the attutitude demonstrated in
<http://books.google.com/books?id=j2...ed+the+truth%22>

--begin quoted text:

Euclid recognized the truth that knowledge for its own sake is worth
while, even if it cannot be used for practical ends. The story goes that
he was once asked by a pupil who had just begun the study of geometry,
'What do you gain by learning all this?' Euclid ordered his servant to
give him some coppers, 'since he must have gain out of what he learns.'

--end quoted text

DD

Robert

2008-03-05, 9:55 pm

On Wed, 05 Mar 2008 11:51:58 -0500, SkippyPB <swiegand@nospam.neo.rr.com> wrote:

>A note to Pete. About your printing issue. I recall seeing a Lexmark
>(I believe it was) printer that had a wireless interface built into it
>so that it could be shared by all your computers without the need for
>cabling. You may want to look into that option if they are available
>in New Zealand.

Wireless printers don't require a print server; it is built into the printer.

HP makes more than a dozen WiFi printers, beginning with the 6988 for $129.99 and the 7460
for $149.99. The 7280 for $269.99 adds fax, scanner and two sided printing. They also talk
USB and Ethernet, and read camera memory cards. Speed and quality are good. Their
di

vantage is cartridge cost, but it's less expensive than color laser.

Non-HP printers have problems. Brother MFC-685CW at $198.99 does WiFi, USB, Ethernet, fax,
scanner and answering machine. Speed and quality are poor. Lexmark X9575 at $233.99 has
similar features. Lexmark's weakness is software; it doesn't support two clients.

If you print high volume and want to be an uberg

, you want a Xerox Phaser 8560 for
$699. It uses a unique printing technology called Solid Ink that paints melted plastic on
paper. Cost per page is lower than any other printer, about 2 cents for BW and 8 cents for
color (versus 15 for inkjet and 25 for laser). Quality is better than laser printers,
speed about the same, reliability outstanding. These printers have a cult following. The
only downside is you need to keep it powered up 24 hours a day, to keep the plastic
liquid. Electricity to do that is included in cost per copy. Wireless requires an optional
$200 box.

Howard Brazee

2008-03-06, 6:55 pm

On Thu, 6 Mar 2008 01:15:44 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf@panix.com () wrote:

>
>'Use' (from 'uti') and 'knowledge' (from 'gnosis') may or may not be made
>to relate to each other.

You mean there's a possibility that people know things that just ain't
so?

HeyBub

2008-03-06, 6:55 pm

Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
> Thanks for the support, Peter.
>
> I agree with you regarding which consultant I'd rather have, and I
> emphatically agree there is no such thing as "useless knowledge".
>

Sherlock Holmes once said that the brain was like a closet; if you fill it
with junk, there's no room left for the important stuff. Something has to be
cleaned out.

Shit!

There goes the fifth grade.

2008-03-06, 6:55 pm

In article <at10t3d3nrjpue0rcvplp0cmeng27gqqqj@4ax.com>,
Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 6 Mar 2008 01:15:44 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf@panix.com () wrote:
>
>
>You mean there's a possibility that people know things that just ain't
>so?

The world is full of possibilities, including various definitions of
'know'.

DD

Rick Smith

2008-03-06, 6:55 pm

<docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:fqp60g$522$1@reader2.panix.com...

[snip]

> The world is full of possibilities, including various definitions of
> 'know'.

Which world would that be? ... there being various definitions
of "world".

2008-03-06, 6:55 pm

In article <13t0ggvltkmek20@corp.supernews.com>,
Rick Smith <ricksmith@mfi.net> wrote:
>
><docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:fqp60g$522$1@reader2.panix.com...
>
>[snip]
>
>
>Which world would that be? ... there being various definitions
>of "world".

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/world , 1 a could be as good a
place to begin as many might be.

DD

tlmfru

2008-03-06, 6:55 pm

Sherlock Holmes also said - in "The Adventure of the Lion's Mane", one of
the last stories - that you can never tell what's going to be useful so read
everything! Although he made it explicit there, it's obvious as you read
the "canon" that he knew of all sorts of things that the average person
didn't. F'r instance, he knew what KKK means although Dr. Watson was
flummoxed by the abbreviation.

PL

HeyBub <heybub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:13t03s9bdak3of9@corp.supernews.com...
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
> Sherlock Holmes once said that the brain was like a closet; if you fill it
> with junk, there's no room left for the important stuff. Something has to
be
> cleaned out.
>
> Shit!
>
> There goes the fifth grade.
>
>

Pete Dashwood

2008-03-06, 6:55 pm

<docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:fqngk0$b71$1@reader2.panix.com...
> In article <638rvkF2673qaU1@mid.individual.net>,
> Pete Dashwood <dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
> 'Use' (from 'uti') and 'knowledge' (from 'gnosis') may or may not be made
> to relate to each other.
>
>
> I was taught something along the lines of the attutitude demonstrated in
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=j2...ed+the+truth%22>
>
> --begin quoted text:
>
> Euclid recognized the truth that knowledge for its own sake is worth
> while, even if it cannot be used for practical ends. The story goes that
> he was once asked by a pupil who had just begun the study of geometry,
> 'What do you gain by learning all this?' Euclid ordered his servant to
> give him some coppers, 'since he must have gain out of what he learns.'
>
> --end quoted text
>
Great story! Thanks for that, Doc.

Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."

Pete Dashwood

2008-03-06, 6:55 pm

"Robert" <no@e.mail> wrote in message
news:gocus3h3njm95smo0t00l0lk9j7mviegsq@
4ax.com...
> On Wed, 05 Mar 2008 11:51:58 -0500, SkippyPB <swiegand@nospam.neo.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Wireless printers don't require a print server; it is built into the
> printer.
>
> HP makes more than a dozen WiFi printers, beginning with the 6988 for
> $129.99 and the 7460
> for $149.99. The 7280 for $269.99 adds fax, scanner and two sided
> printing. They also talk
> USB and Ethernet, and read camera memory cards. Speed and quality are
> good. Their
> di

vantage is cartridge cost, but it's less expensive than color laser.
>
> Non-HP printers have problems. Brother MFC-685CW at $198.99 does WiFi,
> USB, Ethernet, fax,
> scanner and answering machine. Speed and quality are poor. Lexmark X9575
> at $233.99 has
> similar features. Lexmark's weakness is software; it doesn't support two
> clients.
>
> If you print high volume and want to be an uberg

, you want a Xerox
> Phaser 8560 for
> $699. It uses a unique printing technology called Solid Ink that paints
> melted plastic on
> paper. Cost per page is lower than any other printer, about 2 cents for BW
> and 8 cents for
> color (versus 15 for inkjet and 25 for laser). Quality is better than
> laser printers,
> speed about the same, reliability outstanding. These printers have a cult
> following. The
> only downside is you need to keep it powered up 24 hours a day, to keep
> the plastic
> liquid. Electricity to do that is included in cost per copy. Wireless
> requires an optional
> $200 box.
>
Thanks Robert, very useful.

I like the sound of the liquid plastic but it will be some time before I
need to replace the current printer... :-)

Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything.".

Howard Brazee

2008-03-06, 6:55 pm

There are some routers that have USB and even parallel ports that can
be used to make a printer a LAN printer.

My desktop printer has a NIC on it, but I way overpaid for it way back
when.

tlmfru

2008-03-07, 9:55 pm

Not so. Watson was portrayed as a dolt in many of the movies & TV series -
especially in the atrocious Basil Rathbone movies. But he was a normally
intelligent man who simply wasn't told what Holmes was finding - or else
Doyle found it necessary to withhold the details so as to make a better
story. IMHO, the only story in which Watson really missed the boat was the
"Six Napoleaons". It was obvious from the get-go that there was something
in one of them although of course Watson & the reader had no idea what it
might be.

So - if you don't speak German - what would you think "Rache" meant?

PL

Bill Gunshannon <billg999@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message
news:63b20sF256ib5U1@mid.individual.net...
> In article <EZXzj.16834$097.3151@newsfe21.lga>,
> "tlmfru" <lacey@mts.net> writes:
of[color=darkred]
read[color=darkred]
read[color=darkred]
>
> Actually, Dr. Watson was "flummoxed" by lots of things like assuming that
> "RACHE" scrawled on a wall in blood meant there was a woman named "Rachel"
> involved in the crime. A mistaken notion that Holmes, in his usual
fashion
> did not correct. I think he only brought Watson along for comedy relief
> and his service revolver. :-)
>
> bill
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
> billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>

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