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| Stephen Boyd 2008-02-03, 6:56 pm |
| I've been watching this group for a while and I was wondering how many
RM/Cobol users are also watching this list. Aside from Liant's web site
there doesn't seem to be a lot of RM/Cobol resources out there. I would
be interested in other's experiences using RM/CObol for database access
and also any experiences others have had modernizing (Windowizing) their
RM/Cobol apps.
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2008-02-03, 6:56 pm |
|
"Stephen Boyd" <sboydlns@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fo54qr0t50@enews4.newsguy.com...
> I've been watching this group for a while and I was wondering how many
> RM/Cobol users are also watching this list. Aside from Liant's web site
> there doesn't seem to be a lot of RM/Cobol resources out there. I would
> be interested in other's experiences using RM/CObol for database access
> and also any experiences others have had modernizing (Windowizing) their
> RM/Cobol apps.
Two questions:
1. Are you looking for help with specifics like embedding SQL in your COBOL?
(If so, giving us some specific requirements, will help us to help you, and
posting your attempts to solve the problem is always good...)
2. Didn't you used to be Hopalong Cassidy? :-)
Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."
| |
| Frederico Fonseca 2008-02-03, 9:56 pm |
| On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 14:31:46 -0500, Stephen Boyd <sboydlns@gmail.com>
wrote:
>I've been watching this group for a while and I was wondering how many
>RM/Cobol users are also watching this list. Aside from Liant's web site
>there doesn't seem to be a lot of RM/Cobol resources out there. I would
>be interested in other's experiences using RM/CObol for database access
>and also any experiences others have had modernizing (Windowizing) their
>RM/Cobol apps.
try http://wb.itboards.com/esp/?boardid=Prorm
Lots of info related to RM/COBOL.
Regarding database access, you have 2 options.
E-SQL - Not available at the moment for SQL Server, but available for
Oracle and DB2 on Windows/Linux, and some Unix ports.
Liant may be working on more ports.
Instant SQL - Supplied by Liant as part of their compiler
Regarding Windows visual
COBOL/WOW from Liant
SP2 from flexus (www.flexus.com).
Frederico Fonseca
ema il: frederico_fonseca at syssoft-int.com
| |
| Stephen Boyd 2008-02-04, 7:55 am |
| Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
> 1. Are you looking for help with specifics like embedding SQL in your COBOL?
> (If so, giving us some specific requirements, will help us to help you, and
> posting your attempts to solve the problem is always good...)
>
I'm not looking for help particularly. Just curious as to how many
RM/Cobol users are out there and how (or if) they are approaching a move
to a RDMS.
> 2. Didn't you used to be Hopalong Cassidy? :-)
>
I'm old, but I'm not that old. Stephen Boyd the actor was popular about
the time that I was born (mid 50s). My parents swear that I wasn't
named after him though.
> Pete.
| |
| Stephen Boyd 2008-02-04, 6:56 pm |
| >
> try http://wb.itboards.com/esp/?boardid=Prorm
>
> Lots of info related to RM/COBOL.
>
Thanks for the link, but it seems to be all in spanish
>
> Regarding database access, you have 2 options.
>
> E-SQL - Not available at the moment for SQL Server, but available for
> Oracle and DB2 on Windows/Linux, and some Unix ports.
> Liant may be working on more ports.
>
I wasn't aware that Liant provided E-SQL interfaces for anything. There
is one more option for E-SQL though. The open source database Firebird
provides E-SQL for RM/Cobol. It is a bit experimental at the moment but
I'm using it and it works just fine. Disclaimer. I am the person who
is working on the Firebird E-SQL pre-compiler, so there may be a bit of
bias in the previous statement, but we are using it in production on a
limited basis.
>
> Instant SQL - Supplied by Liant as part of their compiler
>
I've looked at Instant SQL. It sucks (IMHO). I would use it if I had
no other way of accomplishing my goal but I wouldn't use it for any
entire application.
>
>
> Regarding Windows visual
>
> COBOL/WOW from Liant
> SP2 from flexus (www.flexus.com).
>
We use WOW now. But it is limited. We are looking for something better.
| |
|
| In article <fo74ve01jep@enews1.newsguy.com>,
Stephen Boyd <sboydlns@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
>I'm old, but I'm not that old. Stephen Boyd the actor was popular about
>the time that I was born (mid 50s). My parents swear that I wasn't
>named after him though.
Eh? Not to cast aspersions on your parents or their ability to swear...
but if he was popular at the time of your birth then how could you have
been named *before* he was?
DD
| |
| Stephen Boyd 2008-02-04, 6:56 pm |
| docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
> In article <fo74ve01jep@enews1.newsguy.com>,
> Stephen Boyd <sboydlns@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
> Eh? Not to cast aspersions on your parents or their ability to swear...
> but if he was popular at the time of your birth then how could you have
> been named *before* he was?
>
If he was a popular actor when I was born, then he obviously must have
been named before I was. Like all the poor kids that get named after
popular soap Opera characters.
> DD
>
| |
|
| In article <fo7ash012q8@enews2.newsguy.com>,
Stephen Boyd <sboydlns@gmail.com> wrote:
>docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
>If he was a popular actor when I was born, then he obviously must have
>been named before I was.
Exactly... hence my confusion.
When it comes to this space-time stuff there are, usually, three
chronological possibilities for two events, pre-, para- and post-. If he
was named before you then you were not being named contemporaneously... so
you *must* have been named after he was.
(note to folks unfamiliar with idiomatic English: perhaps it is best to
forget about what is going on here, a joke explained is a joke lost)
DD
| |
| Stephen Boyd 2008-02-04, 6:56 pm |
| docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
> When it comes to this space-time stuff there are, usually, three
> chronological possibilities for two events, pre-, para- and post-. If he
> was named before you then you were not being named contemporaneously... so
> you *must* have been named after he was.
>
> (note to folks unfamiliar with idiomatic English: perhaps it is best to
> forget about what is going on here, a joke explained is a joke lost)
>
> DD
Now I get it. Perhaps I should have said, that I wasn't named *for* him
to be less ambiguous.
| |
|
| In article <fo7cpd015t0@enews2.newsguy.com>,
Stephen Boyd <sboydlns@gmail.com> wrote:
>docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
>Now I get it. Perhaps I should have said, that I wasn't named *for* him
>to be less ambiguous.
Eh? If you weren't named *against* him... oh, never mind.
DD
| |
| Howard Brazee 2008-02-04, 6:56 pm |
| On Mon, 4 Feb 2008 15:18:13 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf@panix.com () wrote:
>
>Eh? Not to cast aspersions on your parents or their ability to swear...
>but if he was popular at the time of your birth then how could you have
>been named *before* he was?
So were you named after Cleopatra?
| |
|
| In article <updeq3dai8nl9abqjo7n4cdl2alpdnte6c@4ax.com>,
Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 4 Feb 2008 15:18:13 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf@panix.com () wrote:
>
>
>So were you named after Cleopatra?
Answering a question with a question, Mr Brazee, is no answer at all.
DD
| |
| Robert Iles 2008-02-04, 6:56 pm |
| Stephen Boyd wrote:
> I've been watching this group for a while and I was wondering how many
> RM/Cobol users are also watching this list. Aside from Liant's web site
> there doesn't seem to be a lot of RM/Cobol resources out there. I would
> be interested in other's experiences using RM/CObol for database access
> and also any experiences others have had modernizing (Windowizing) their
> RM/Cobol apps.
I've been coding in RM/Cobol for about since 81 on a TI-990
series. Currently using RM/Cobol for windows with a point of
sale applications and apopintments. We are using the WOW
windows object workshop for the windows hookins. If you have
a great deal of older RM Code using the structures now, then
this platform is a good option to preserve and work (mostly
seemlessly) with you older code. If you are developing from
scratch...I'm not sure that I would choose this path...
my 2cents.
bob.
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2008-02-04, 6:56 pm |
|
"Stephen Boyd" <sboydlns@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fo74ve01jep@enews1.newsguy.com...
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
> I'm not looking for help particularly. Just curious as to how many
> RM/Cobol users are out there and how (or if) they are approaching a move
> to a RDMS.
Fair enough. This is a good place for general stuff too.
I moved to RDBMS about 15 years ago, and encouraged people here to do so
too. There was fierce resistance and I came in for a lot of vitriol but
today, most people either have done so or are doing so.
I can't help with RM COBOL specifically as I have never used it, but I DO
have tools that can build relational databases from COBOL ISAM file
definitions, and generate modules to load the data from existing ISAM files
automatically.
The whole business of data and code migration is much more complex than you
might think. I have assisted a number of sites with this conversion and
have documented the pitfalls likely to be encountered and what to do about
them.
>
>
> I'm old, but I'm not that old. Stephen Boyd the actor was popular about
> the time that I was born (mid 50s). My parents swear that I wasn't named
> after him though.
Sorry, I wasn't trrying to be offensive (I seem to manage it without trying,
on occasion :-)). He was a hero of mine whe I was a kid and I remember the
Saturday matinees at the local cinema... Great stuff!
Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."[color=darkred]
>
>
| |
| Bill Gunshannon 2008-02-04, 6:56 pm |
| In article <60mtt8F1r8m4aU1@mid.individual.net>,
"Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz> writes:
>
>
> "Stephen Boyd" <sboydlns@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:fo54qr0t50@enews4.newsguy.com...
>
> Two questions:
>
> 1. Are you looking for help with specifics like embedding SQL in your COBOL?
> (If so, giving us some specific requirements, will help us to help you, and
> posting your attempts to solve the problem is always good...)
>
> 2. Didn't you used to be Hopalong Cassidy? :-)
That was Bill Boyd. :-)
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
| |
| Stephen Boyd 2008-02-04, 9:59 pm |
| Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
> I can't help with RM COBOL specifically as I have never used it, but I DO
> have tools that can build relational databases from COBOL ISAM file
> definitions, and generate modules to load the data from existing ISAM files
> automatically.
>
I have also made some tools to create relational tables out of Cobol
Isam and relative files and to convert the data automatically. Logical
first step I guess.
> The whole business of data and code migration is much more complex than you
> might think. I have assisted a number of sites with this conversion and
> have documented the pitfalls likely to be encountered and what to do about
> them.
>
I know it can be complex. Multiple record types, redefined data items,
array of items in one record. All of those nasty things that seem
perfectly reasonable in Cobol but are hell in an RDMS.
> Sorry, I wasn't trrying to be offensive (I seem to manage it without trying,
> on occasion :-)). He was a hero of mine whe I was a kid and I remember the
> Saturday matinees at the local cinema... Great stuff!
>
Not really offended. As Cobol programmers, go I am probably on they
young side. I'm only 53 after all.
| |
| Stephen Boyd 2008-02-04, 9:59 pm |
| Robert Iles wrote:
> I've been coding in RM/Cobol for about since 81 on a TI-990
> series. Currently using RM/Cobol for windows with a point of
> sale applications and apopintments. We are using the WOW
> windows object workshop for the windows hookins. If you have
> a great deal of older RM Code using the structures now, then
> this platform is a good option to preserve and work (mostly
> seemlessly) with you older code. If you are developing from
> scratch...I'm not sure that I would choose this path...
My company has been developing in RM/Cobol since about 81 or 82. I
started using it in about 98. We have ported most everything to WOW and
it has been OK but it is limited in what you are able to do. We are
looking for something more capable but are hesitant to try something
like VB, C# or Delphi for the front end because there is no practical
way to preserve the Cobol business logic. It is simply too big an
undertaking to scrap Cobol completely and rewrite in something else.
I do all of my non-Cobol work in Delphi and I am constantly frustrated
by the limitations of WOW. In some respects it would be nice to be able
to do the front end in Delphi (or VB or C#) and let Cobol handle the
business logic but even that is a headache with RM/Cobol. Not
impossible, merely difficult.
| |
| Robert 2008-02-04, 9:59 pm |
| On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 08:46:29 -0500, Stephen Boyd <sboydlns@gmail.com> wrote:
>Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
>I'm old, but I'm not that old. Stephen Boyd the actor was popular about
>the time that I was born (mid 50s). My parents swear that I wasn't
>named after him though.
Hopalong Cassidy was played by William Boyd. Stephen Boyd was an actor who usually played
Romans.
| |
| William M. Klein 2008-02-05, 3:55 am |
| Probably more changes and effort than your company would like to pursue, but
Micro Focus does have both support for RM syntax *and* support for "refactoring"
business logic from UI. If this is of any interest to you, please email me
privately (off-list) and I can get you in touch with someone who could give you
more information.
--
Bill Klein
wmklein <at> ix.netcom.com
"Stephen Boyd" <sboydlns@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fo8hn3017re@enews5.newsguy.com...
> Robert Iles wrote:
>
> My company has been developing in RM/Cobol since about 81 or 82. I started
> using it in about 98. We have ported most everything to WOW and it has been
> OK but it is limited in what you are able to do. We are looking for something
> more capable but are hesitant to try something like VB, C# or Delphi for the
> front end because there is no practical way to preserve the Cobol business
> logic. It is simply too big an undertaking to scrap Cobol completely and
> rewrite in something else.
>
> I do all of my non-Cobol work in Delphi and I am constantly frustrated by the
> limitations of WOW. In some respects it would be nice to be able to do the
> front end in Delphi (or VB or C#) and let Cobol handle the business logic but
> even that is a headache with RM/Cobol. Not impossible, merely difficult.
| |
| Frederico Fonseca 2008-02-05, 7:55 am |
| On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 10:00:16 -0500, Stephen Boyd <sboydlns@gmail.com>
wrote:
>Thanks for the link, but it seems to be all in spanish
>
>
>I wasn't aware that Liant provided E-SQL interfaces for anything. There
>is one more option for E-SQL though. The open source database Firebird
>provides E-SQL for RM/Cobol. It is a bit experimental at the moment but
>I'm using it and it works just fine. Disclaimer. I am the person who
>is working on the Firebird E-SQL pre-compiler, so there may be a bit of
>bias in the previous statement, but we are using it in production on a
>limited basis.
The E-SQL interface has so far been supplied by myself, for around 7
years. I have it running in Windows, Unix(some brands/platforms) and
Linux.
Only available for DB2 and Oracle.
As I said Liant may also be working on some ports. To soon to say.
>
>
>
>I've looked at Instant SQL. It sucks (IMHO). I would use it if I had
>no other way of accomplishing my goal but I wouldn't use it for any
>entire application.
Agreed. When ISQL was done, they should have instead done a E-SQL
processor.
You can also use plain ODBC. Works fine also with all databaes and
with Unix also.
>
>
>We use WOW now. But it is limited. We are looking for something better.
Try SP2. Easier to program than WOW.
Frederico Fonseca
ema il: frederico_fonseca at syssoft-int.com
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2008-02-05, 7:56 am |
|
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."
"Bill Gunshannon" <billg999@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message
news:60pngnF1s0tqlU1@mid.individual.net...
> In article <60mtt8F1r8m4aU1@mid.individual.net>,
> "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz> writes:
>
> That was Bill Boyd. :-)
>
> bill
Geez Bill, I think it WAS William Boyd, now you mention it. :-)
(Blushes in shame, hangs head, and shuffles off stage right...)
Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."
> --
> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
> bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
| |
| t.morrison@liant.com 2008-02-05, 6:56 pm |
| On Feb 3, 1:31 pm, Stephen Boyd <sboyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've been watching this group for a while and I was wondering how many
> RM/Cobol users are also watching this list.
Steve,
I tend not to watch c.l.cobol very much. You may find me in Tek-Tips
in several forums.
> Aside from Liant's web site
> there doesn't seem to be a lot of RM/Cobol resources out there.
I have been studying your Firebird ESQL work with interest. Also, as
Frederico mentions, there is available Oracle and DB2 EQSL support.
InstantSQL is what it is; it doesn't suck, but I am always interested
in constructive suggestions. ;-)
> I would
> be interested in other's experiences using RM/CObol for database access
> and also any experiences others have had modernizing (Windowizing) their
> RM/Cobol apps.
Okay, not to start a flame war, but 'Windowizing' an application is
not equivalent to modernizing an application. In fact, it would
probably be best to choose to rehost the user interface in a browser,
which has most likely eclipsed the 'Windows look-and-feel' (whatever
that happens to be today) as a universally understood UI, which
happens to be free of most Microsoft proprietary 'features'.
Later in this thread you talk of using another language to implement
the UI but don't want to reimplement the business rules. This is good
thinking! No need to waste resources on such reimplementation.
Service Oriented Architecture (SOA) is a good approach, being used by
many of our customers who use Business Information Server (BIS) to
created SOAP web services that can be called by any of the Visual
Studio languages, or Java, or Delphi, or any other IDE that knows how
to fetch a WSDL.
Best regards,
Tom Morrison
Director, Customer Support and Technical Services
Liant Software Corporation
| |
| t.morrison@liant.com 2008-02-05, 6:56 pm |
| On Feb 3, 7:28 pm, Frederico Fonseca <real-email-in-msg-
s...@email.com> wrote:
[snip]> Regarding Windows visual
>
> COBOL/WOW from Liant
> SP2 from flexus (www.flexus.com).
And GUI ScreenIO (www.screenio.com).
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