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| Pete Dashwood 2007-11-23, 7:55 am |
| They just ran a news item here mentioning that the US is preparing to
celebrate Thanksgiving.
Greetings to all concerned. Hope you all have much to be thankful for and
you spend a happy time with families.
They also noted in passing that 800,000 American homeless won't be enjoying
the turkey.
That is a  thought, but we have all become pretty inured to the lot of
those less fortunate. We feel sorry, do what we can where we can, but accept
that poverty is part of life and an "insoluble" problem.
The thing that astonished me was that 25% of these homeless are War
Veterans. (Korea, Viet Nam, and Afghanistan and the Gulf)
Surely there must be programs to prevent servicepeople from just being
thrown on the scrapheap? We wouildn't want to do that with ANYONE, but
especially not those who have rendered service to their country and done
their duty as it was called (leaving aside the rights and wrongs of US
foreign policy).
Anyone have any comments on this?
Can/is anything be/ing done?
Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."
| |
| Rick Smith 2007-11-23, 7:55 am |
|
"Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:5qnnnvF10lia4U1@mid.individual.net...
> They just ran a news item here mentioning that the US is preparing to
> celebrate Thanksgiving.
>
> Greetings to all concerned. Hope you all have much to be thankful for and
> you spend a happy time with families.
>
> They also noted in passing that 800,000 American homeless won't be
enjoying
> the turkey.
>
> That is a thought, but we have all become pretty inured to the lot of
> those less fortunate. We feel sorry, do what we can where we can, but
accept
> that poverty is part of life and an "insoluble" problem.
>
> The thing that astonished me was that 25% of these homeless are War
> Veterans. (Korea, Viet Nam, and Afghanistan and the Gulf)
>
> Surely there must be programs to prevent servicepeople from just being
> thrown on the scrapheap? We wouildn't want to do that with ANYONE, but
> especially not those who have rendered service to their country and done
> their duty as it was called (leaving aside the rights and wrongs of US
> foreign policy).
>
> Anyone have any comments on this?
>
> Can/is anything be/ing done?
< http://www.va.gov/ > is the starting point for finding benefits
available to U.S. veterans.
< http://www1.va.gov/opa/vadocs/fedben.pdf > is a booklet
titled, "Federal Benefits for Veterans and Dependents".
Furthermore, each state has a program to assist veterans. For
example, benefits provided by the State of Florida may be
found at < http://www.floridavets.org/ > with a summary of
benefits given in < http://www.floridavets.org/pdf/fvbg.pdf >.
The United States and the states operate homes for "eligible"
veterans and "eligible" is a specific limitation.
There are advocacy groups and private initiatives through
organizations, such as, the American Legion
< http://www.legion.org/ >, chartered by Congress, and the
Veterans of Foreign Wars < http://www.vfw.org/ >, a
not-for-profit organization.
The local franchise of "Golden Corral"
< http://www.goldencorral.com/ > offers a free steak to
veterans on or about Veteran's Day (Nov 11). This year it
was Nov 12.
To the best of my knowledge there are no initiatives, specific
to veterans, to provide a Thanksgiving meal.
| |
| HeyBub 2007-11-23, 7:55 am |
| Pete Dashwood wrote:
> They just ran a news item here mentioning that the US is preparing to
> celebrate Thanksgiving.
>
> Greetings to all concerned. Hope you all have much to be thankful for
> and you spend a happy time with families.
>
> They also noted in passing that 800,000 American homeless won't be
> enjoying the turkey.
>
> That is a thought, but we have all become pretty inured to the
> lot of those less fortunate. We feel sorry, do what we can where we
> can, but accept that poverty is part of life and an "insoluble"
> problem.
> The thing that astonished me was that 25% of these homeless are War
> Veterans. (Korea, Viet Nam, and Afghanistan and the Gulf)
>
> Surely there must be programs to prevent servicepeople from just being
> thrown on the scrapheap? We wouildn't want to do that with ANYONE, but
> especially not those who have rendered service to their country and
> done their duty as it was called (leaving aside the rights and wrongs
> of US foreign policy).
>
> Anyone have any comments on this?
>
> Can/is anything be/ing done?
Most systemic problems in America can be traced to an up-stream liberal
program that failed.
In the case at hand, the institutionalization of the mentally disturbed was
challenged on the grounds that many were not a hazard to themselves or to
society and, therefore, should not be placed in supervised facilities. The
insane asylums were emptied.
Paranoics, Manic-Depressives, and democrats were sent forth to work their
insults upon the masses.
The homeless are homeless because they choose to be homeless. That they
reached this choice - and through it drug addiction, malnutrition, health
failure - through impaired mental processes is an unfortunate consequence of
liberty.
Unfortunately, the influx of the insane in the 60's and 70's was not enough
to provide the liberals with sufficient, long-term, political popularity.
Their current strategy is to re-infranchise those convicted of a felony (in
many jurisdictions, a felony conviction is a life-long prohibition to
voting).
Republicans have to rely on the Roe Effect, but that takes generations.
If your 800,000 no-turkey number is correct, then outreach programs are
doing pretty well.
As to your last question, "Can/is anything be/ing done?" well, no.
| |
| Robert 2007-11-23, 6:55 pm |
| On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 23:18:39 +1300, "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz>
wrote:
>They just ran a news item here mentioning that the US is preparing to
>celebrate Thanksgiving.
>
>Greetings to all concerned. Hope you all have much to be thankful for and
>you spend a happy time with families.
>
>They also noted in passing that 800,000 American homeless won't be enjoying
>the turkey.
>
>That is a thought, but we have all become pretty inured to the lot of
>those less fortunate. We feel sorry, do what we can where we can, but accept
>that poverty is part of life and an "insoluble" problem.
>
>The thing that astonished me was that 25% of these homeless are War
>Veterans. (Korea, Viet Nam, and Afghanistan and the Gulf)
Percentage of homeless who are veterans is close to the percentage of the general
population who are veterans. 21% of American males over 18 are veterans and 1% are active
duty military.
Average income of veteran males is higher than nonveteran males -- 35,088 versus 30,875.
Women are only 12% of the US military and less than 20% of homeless.
800K homeless is only 2/10 of 1 percent of the population.
African-Americans are disproportionately homeless. They constitute 50% of the homeless,
12% of the US population.
66 percent of the homeless have problems with alcohol, drug abuse, or mental illness. It
is unknown how many of the rest are former Cobol programmers.
http://factfinder.census.gov/servle...S_2006_EST_G00_
http://www.policyalmanac.org/social.../homeless.shtml
| |
| SkippyPB 2007-11-23, 6:55 pm |
| On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 07:42:52 -0600, "HeyBub" <heybub@gmail.com> wrote:
>Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
>Most systemic problems in America can be traced to an up-stream liberal
>program that failed.
>
>In the case at hand, the institutionalization of the mentally disturbed was
>challenged on the grounds that many were not a hazard to themselves or to
>society and, therefore, should not be placed in supervised facilities. The
>insane asylums were emptied.
>
>Paranoics, Manic-Depressives, and democrats were sent forth to work their
>insults upon the masses.
>
>The homeless are homeless because they choose to be homeless. That they
>reached this choice - and through it drug addiction, malnutrition, health
>failure - through impaired mental processes is an unfortunate consequence of
>liberty.
>
>Unfortunately, the influx of the insane in the 60's and 70's was not enough
>to provide the liberals with sufficient, long-term, political popularity.
>Their current strategy is to re-infranchise those convicted of a felony (in
>many jurisdictions, a felony conviction is a life-long prohibition to
>voting).
>
>Republicans have to rely on the Roe Effect, but that takes generations.
>
>If your 800,000 no-turkey number is correct, then outreach programs are
>doing pretty well.
>
>As to your last question, "Can/is anything be/ing done?" well, no.
>
You are so far off base that I can't believe I'm wasting my time even
typing this short reply. To those who don't live in the USA, none of
was posted here is anywhere near reality.
Regards,
////
(o o)
-oOO--(_)--OOo-
"Grammar has gots to be one of the most importantest things ever?"
-- Anonymous
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Remove nospam to email me.
Steve
| |
| tlmfru 2007-11-23, 6:55 pm |
|
HeyBub <heybub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:13kdm6jfaq3t0e0@corp.supernews.com...
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
<snip>
Assuming you, Heybub, are a US citizen:
Americans at their best are wonderful, generous people who'll do anything to
help their friends, and to a certain extent even their enemies. But the
average American is ingorant, agressive, and parochial. At their worst,
they are capable of most intense bigotry. You, sir, are not an example of
the best of Americans.
[color=darkred]
> Most systemic problems in America can be traced to an up-stream liberal
> program that failed.
>
> In the case at hand, the institutionalization of the mentally disturbed
was
> challenged on the grounds that many were not a hazard to themselves or to
> society and, therefore, should not be placed in supervised facilities. The
> insane asylums were emptied.
>
> Paranoics, Manic-Depressives, and democrats were sent forth to work their
> insults upon the masses.
>
We take it, then, that Democrats are all paranoics and/or manic-depressives?
> The homeless are homeless because they choose to be homeless. That they
> reached this choice - and through it drug addiction, malnutrition, health
> failure - through impaired mental processes is an unfortunate consequence
of
> liberty.
>
I wonder if you have the guts and intellectual honesty to take up a homeless
lifestyle yourself? Or even to go out and talk to a few dozen of them? If
you take to the streets with only the clothing on your back and attempt to
survive you'll know whereof you speak, instead of making ridiculous
generalizations.
> Unfortunately, the influx of the insane in the 60's and 70's was not
enough
> to provide the liberals with sufficient, long-term, political popularity.
> Their current strategy is to re-infranchise those convicted of a felony
(in
> many jurisdictions, a felony conviction is a life-long prohibition to
> voting).
>
> Republicans have to rely on the Roe Effect, but that takes generations.
No Republican woman ever has had or ever will have an abortion?
>
> If your 800,000 no-turkey number is correct, then outreach programs are
> doing pretty well.
>
> As to your last question, "Can/is anything be/ing done?" well, no.
>
>
I am appalled that a supposedly well-educated man, citizen of a country and
society that looks upon itself as a beacon of hope to the world, can spew
forth such venom. "Send them, the tempest-tossed, to me ... I lift my lamp
beside the golden door". Still, that's one of the benefits of living in a
liberal society, that you're allowed to do so.
PL
| |
| HeyBub 2007-11-23, 6:55 pm |
| tlmfru wrote:
> HeyBub <heybub@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:13kdm6jfaq3t0e0@corp.supernews.com...
> <snip>
> Assuming you, Heybub, are a US citizen:
>
> Americans at their best are wonderful, generous people who'll do
> anything to help their friends, and to a certain extent even their
> enemies. But the average American is ingorant, agressive, and
> parochial. At their worst, they are capable of most intense bigotry.
> You, sir, are not an example of the best of Americans.
I see you're posting from Canada. Many believe Canada is America's attic,
you know, where we keep the crazy aunt. Let's see.
>
>
> We take it, then, that Democrats are all paranoics and/or
> manic-depressives?
>
>
> I wonder if you have the guts and intellectual honesty to take up a
> homeless lifestyle yourself? Or even to go out and talk to a few
> dozen of them? If you take to the streets with only the clothing on
> your back and attempt to survive you'll know whereof you speak,
> instead of making ridiculous generalizations.
>
>
> No Republican woman ever has had or ever will have an abortion?
>
>
> I am appalled that a supposedly well-educated man, citizen of a
> country and society that looks upon itself as a beacon of hope to the
> world, can spew forth such venom. "Send them, the tempest-tossed, to
> me ... I lift my lamp beside the golden door". Still, that's one of
> the benefits of living in a liberal society, that you're allowed to
> do so.
Thank you for the well-expressed, emotionally felt, but factually devoid
response. You make assumptions that are not supported by the facts. For
example:
"We take it, then, that Democrats are all paranoics and/or
manic-depressives?"
I said "paranoics, manic-depressives, AND Democrats..." It was a JOKE, son.
But, as with most jokes, some truth obtains. There have been several
instances reported of Democratic operatives rounding up the homeless, with
the promise of free cigarettes, in return for their vote.
And I'm sure Republican women have had abortions. But.
It is estimated that, in 1982, 70,000 abortions were performed in Florida.
In 2000, those 70,000 would have been eligible to vote. Oh, some would have
moved away, some died, some incarcerated, many would not have bothered, but,
of the residual, the vast majority would have followed the political
leanings of their parent(s). Let's say a 25,000 to 5,000
liberal/conservative split. As you may recall, George Bush won Florida, and
with it the presidency, by ~570 votes.
You are correct about America being a wonderful place, truely the land of
opportunity. If I took to the streets with nothing but the clothes on my
back, as you suggest, I have no doubt I could find a subsistence job in but
a few hours, a better job within a w , and, by the time a month had gone
by, be back to 75% of my current standard of living.
Where else but American can a poor black boy grow up to be a rich white man
and marry Elvis Presley's daughter?
As for interacting with the homeless, I've worked with and talked to
possibly thousands more than you - I spent 8 years as a deputy sheriff.
And as for "being allowed to do so" in a liberal society, well, no, we're
not allowed. A first grade boy who hugs a girl has to go to a sexual
harrassment re-education camp, Christmas trees are banned as being
"insensitive," and so on. Heck, a department supervisor was nearly tarred
and feathered for using the word "Niggardly." No, a "liberal" society has
driven the PC bus off the cliff.
| |
| Louis Krupp 2007-11-23, 6:55 pm |
| HeyBub wrote:
<snip>
> "We take it, then, that Democrats are all paranoics and/or
> manic-depressives?"
>
> I said "paranoics, manic-depressives, AND Democrats..." It was a JOKE, son.
<snip>
> As for interacting with the homeless, I've worked with and talked to
> possibly thousands more than you - I spent 8 years as a deputy sheriff.
<snip>
In no particular order:
I suspect that a lot of homeless people don't have frequent contact with
law enforcement; you *may* have been dealing with a small and not
necessarily representative sample.
As to your comment about paranoiacs, manic-depressives, and Democrats, I
am a registered Democrat. I have worked with Democrats, lived with
Democrats, and, in more interesting times, slept with Democrats. There
have been occasions when I would say that in lumping Democrats with the
clinically insane, you do the insane a disservice.
Louis
| |
|
| Pete Dashwood wrote:
> They just ran a news item here mentioning that the US is preparing to
> celebrate Thanksgiving.
>
> Greetings to all concerned. Hope you all have much to be thankful for and
> you spend a happy time with families.
>
> They also noted in passing that 800,000 American homeless won't be enjoying
> the turkey.
That's because we have a Republican administration. By reading the
reports from our media, between 1993-2001, we didn't have any. :) (It
sounds cynical, but it's the truth. They didn't go away, they just
weren't reported.)
> That is a thought, but we have all become pretty inured to the lot of
> those less fortunate. We feel sorry, do what we can where we can, but accept
> that poverty is part of life and an "insoluble" problem.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. HeyBub
addressed (humorously, at times, but accurately) some of the reasons the
US homeless find themselves without a home.
> The thing that astonished me was that 25% of these homeless are War
> Veterans. (Korea, Viet Nam, and Afghanistan and the Gulf)
>
> Surely there must be programs to prevent servicepeople from just being
> thrown on the scrapheap? We wouildn't want to do that with ANYONE, but
> especially not those who have rendered service to their country and done
> their duty as it was called (leaving aside the rights and wrongs of US
> foreign policy).
I don't know of any organized "turkeys for vets" program. However, that
being said, there are lots of private charity programs to help those who
need it. The trick is, you can't just go out on the streets and force
them to come in and eat. For those who don't ask for the help, there's
not much that can be done.
> Anyone have any comments on this?
>
> Can/is anything be/ing done?
By far, the biggest charities in this country are private. Nearly every
city has a "rescue mission" run by a group of religious organizations,
that provide meals and shelter. My father used to go to the one in
Knoxville, TN every Thursday, and talk with the (mostly) men while they
were there. The Salvation Army is another (very large) group that can
provide these things. Also, there are food banks that solicit donations
(and may also be partly funded by individual charities, or part of a
charity group such as the United Way) - in fact, my sons and I helped
sort food at the local food bank this past Sunday.
Of course, state governments (partially funded by federal monies) do
have programs such as food stamps and subsidized housing. However, some
places have waiting lists for subsidized housing, and most states now
have limits on these programs, as they're intended to be a hand up, not
a hand-out.
True, not everyone has "a turkey" on Thanksgiving - but in most cases,
only stubborn pride or other personal choice would make someone go hungry.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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~ Business Website ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~
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~ Personal E-mail ~ "Personal Blog" as e-mail address ~
~ Personal Blog ~ http://daniel.summershome.org ~
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"Who is more irrational? A man who believes in a God he doesn't see,
or a man who's offended by a God he doesn't believe in?" - Brad Stine
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2007-11-23, 6:55 pm |
|
"Rick Smith" <ricksmith@mfi.net> wrote in message
news:13kdf0855imgu40@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:5qnnnvF10lia4U1@mid.individual.net...
> enjoying
> accept
>
> < http://www.va.gov/ > is the starting point for finding benefits
> available to U.S. veterans.
> < http://www1.va.gov/opa/vadocs/fedben.pdf > is a booklet
> titled, "Federal Benefits for Veterans and Dependents".
>
> Furthermore, each state has a program to assist veterans. For
> example, benefits provided by the State of Florida may be
> found at < http://www.floridavets.org/ > with a summary of
> benefits given in < http://www.floridavets.org/pdf/fvbg.pdf >.
>
> The United States and the states operate homes for "eligible"
> veterans and "eligible" is a specific limitation.
>
> There are advocacy groups and private initiatives through
> organizations, such as, the American Legion
> < http://www.legion.org/ >, chartered by Congress, and the
> Veterans of Foreign Wars < http://www.vfw.org/ >, a
> not-for-profit organization.
>
> The local franchise of "Golden Corral"
> < http://www.goldencorral.com/ > offers a free steak to
> veterans on or about Veteran's Day (Nov 11). This year it
> was Nov 12.
>
> To the best of my knowledge there are no initiatives, specific
> to veterans, to provide a Thanksgiving meal.
>
>
Thanks Rick.
This is positive and, frankly, what I would expect/hope.
Sometimes the media just seize on the downside and don't mention the good
work that is being done.
Pete.
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2007-11-23, 6:55 pm |
|
"HeyBub" <heybub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:13kdm6jfaq3t0e0@corp.supernews.com...
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
> Most systemic problems in America can be traced to an up-stream liberal
> program that failed.
>
> In the case at hand, the institutionalization of the mentally disturbed
> was challenged on the grounds that many were not a hazard to themselves or
> to society and, therefore, should not be placed in supervised facilities.
> The insane asylums were emptied.
Yes, a similar program happened here in NZ and also in England. In our
population (just over 4 million) it doesn't matter too much, but in a larger
population it can be disastrous...
>
> Paranoics, Manic-Depressives, and democrats were sent forth to work their
> insults upon the masses.
:-) I wonder how many Democrats went on to learn COBOL...:-)
>
> The homeless are homeless because they choose to be homeless. That they
> reached this choice - and through it drug addiction, malnutrition, health
> failure - through impaired mental processes is an unfortunate consequence
> of liberty.
I'm sure this is true for some, I just hope it isn't the case for the
majority. In either case, there is still a responsibility of care for the
rest of us... Rick's post mentioned a number of agencies that are in place
to assist.
>
> Unfortunately, the influx of the insane in the 60's and 70's was not
> enough to provide the liberals with sufficient, long-term, political
> popularity. Their current strategy is to re-infranchise those convicted of
> a felony (in many jurisdictions, a felony conviction is a life-long
> prohibition to voting).
Hmmmm.... let me see if I have this right...
1. Someone commits an anti-social act. (felony)
2. The society then disenfranchises him/her because they are not considered
fit to be part of society?
Doesn't that simply alienate them further and make the chance of
rehabilitation that much less?
I could go with it for a specific period; maybe while they are in jail (then
it simply reinforces that doing time is like "time out" where you can
consider the error of your ways and you will have none of the rights or
privileges you enjoy when NOT in jail), but "lifetime"? That kind of says:
"We want no part of you and from now on you are the "enemy"... ". So,
people use their time in jail to get trained in further anti-social activity
and a separate underclass is created that has no chance of ever being
reabsorbed usefully into mainstream society.
Yes, I know there are some who make this choice early in their lives (for
whatever reasons) and can never be rehabilitated, but that doesn't mean we
should withdraw all hope, or that we should give up and stop trying.
I guess, in a smaller society, we value our citizens more. I know there are
bad Kiwis and I've met some... We have people who commit horrendous crimes,
just like everywhere else on Earth. But we also identify with each other.
When a Kiwi behaves badly, I feel it. (So do most of the people I know).
Just as we exult when other Kiwis excel. It's a bit like being when a
member of your family screws up; you don't approve and you wonder how they
came to that, but you don't exclude them for life with no hope of living
down what they did.
(Of course, for the very worst crimes (especially against children) there is
a case for saying: "you are SO far beyond the pale, we think the world
would be a better place without you. Goodbye." They won't have a referendum
here on capital punishment because they know it would be a landslide in
favour... As that would be a "retrograde step" for the Justice system, it is
better to just not address it...)
Crime and punishment are probably the most complex issues we ever have to
deal with, in any society.
My own view is that if there is the slightest chance of salvaging people, we
should do so. And if there isn't, then let's not prolong the agony or impose
a further burden on the taxpayer...
>
> Republicans have to rely on the Roe Effect, but that takes generations.
>
> If your 800,000 no-turkey number is correct, then outreach programs are
> doing pretty well.
It came from the TV news... I have no idea how accurate it is.
>
> As to your last question, "Can/is anything be/ing done?" well, no.
>
>
I think this is "tongue-in-ch", right :-)
Rick's post indicates that some things are being done.
Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2007-11-23, 6:55 pm |
|
"tlmfru" <lacey@mts.net> wrote in message
news:Y%F1j.359$so3.273@newsfe18.lga...
>
> HeyBub <heybub@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:13kdm6jfaq3t0e0@corp.supernews.com...
> <snip>
> Assuming you, Heybub, are a US citizen:
>
> Americans at their best are wonderful, generous people who'll do anything
> to
> help their friends, and to a certain extent even their enemies. But the
> average American is ingorant, agressive, and parochial. At their worst,
> they are capable of most intense bigotry. You, sir, are not an example of
> the best of Americans.
Well, Peter, at least he has a sense of humour... :-)
(There is hope for any society in which that is demonstrated...)
>
> was
>
> We take it, then, that Democrats are all paranoics and/or
> manic-depressives?
I think it was a joke... (hope so :-)). Anyway, it made me smile...
>
> of
>
> I wonder if you have the guts and intellectual honesty to take up a
> homeless
> lifestyle yourself? Or even to go out and talk to a few dozen of them?
> If
> you take to the streets with only the clothing on your back and attempt to
> survive you'll know whereof you speak, instead of making ridiculous
> generalizations.
>
> enough
> (in
>
> No Republican woman ever has had or ever will have an abortion?
>
>
> I am appalled that a supposedly well-educated man, citizen of a country
> and
> society that looks upon itself as a beacon of hope to the world, can spew
> forth such venom. "Send them, the tempest-tossed, to me ... I lift my
> lamp
> beside the golden door". Still, that's one of the benefits of living in a
> liberal society, that you're allowed to do so.
Whatever else HeyBub may be, he has demonstrated through long time posts
here that he is not venomous. In fact, some of his posts are the most
entertaining I find here.
I think this is a case where you took it a bit too literally, Peter.
(A proud Texan with a background in Law Enforcement and a wicked sense of
humour is a very good combination. If you were going to be arrested, you
might hope it would be someone like HeyBub who was the arresting officer.
:-))
Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."
>
> PL
>
>
>
>
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2007-11-23, 6:55 pm |
|
"Louis Krupp" <lkrupp@pssw.nospam.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:13kejtef9cq6geb@corp.supernews.com...
> HeyBub wrote:
> <snip>
>
>
> <snip>
>
>
> <snip>
>
> In no particular order:
>
> I suspect that a lot of homeless people don't have frequent contact with
> law enforcement; you *may* have been dealing with a small and not
> necessarily representative sample.
>
> As to your comment about paranoiacs, manic-depressives, and Democrats, I
> am a registered Democrat. I have worked with Democrats, lived with
> Democrats, and, in more interesting times, slept with Democrats. There
> have been occasions when I would say that in lumping Democrats with the
> clinically insane, you do the insane a disservice.
>
> Louis
LOL!
(Doncha' just love politics.... ?)
Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2007-11-23, 6:55 pm |
|
"Robert" <no@e.mail> wrote in message
news:v6udk3l399oupmv3fcihlpkc7sn9nk9m6s@
4ax.com...
> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 23:18:39 +1300, "Pete Dashwood"
> <dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
>
> Percentage of homeless who are veterans is close to the percentage of the
> general
> population who are veterans. 21% of American males over 18 are veterans
> and 1% are active
> duty military.
>
> Average income of veteran males is higher than nonveteran males -- 35,088
> versus 30,875.
>
> Women are only 12% of the US military and less than 20% of homeless.
>
> 800K homeless is only 2/10 of 1 percent of the population.
>
> African-Americans are disproportionately homeless. They constitute 50% of
> the homeless,
> 12% of the US population.
>
> 66 percent of the homeless have problems with alcohol, drug abuse, or
> mental illness. It
> is unknown how many of the rest are former Cobol programmers.
Or even current ones... :-)?
>
> http://factfinder.census.gov/servle...S_2006_EST_G00_
> http://www.policyalmanac.org/social.../homeless.shtml
>
Thanks for the interesting statistics, Robert.
I think the important thing here is knowing that help IS available if people
choose to avail themselves of it.
No society could ever be considered "Great" if it shows no responsibility to
its citizens, or is prepared to discard a certain sector of them.
Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."
| |
| Judson McClendon 2007-11-23, 6:55 pm |
| "LX-i" <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote:
>
> True, not everyone has "a turkey" on Thanksgiving - but in most cases, only stubborn pride or other personal choice would make
> someone go hungry.
A few presidential elections ago one of the candidates (Alan Keys, IIRC)
was challenged by a liberal and asked "What about all the starving people
in the U.S.?" Keys responded "Okay, how many people starved to death in
the U.S. so far this year? How about last year? How about the last decade?"
The liberal was speachless, and didn't have a response. Keys knew, unlike
the liberals in the U.S., that starvation in this country is virtually
unknown. In the extremely rare cases, it's always because of special
circumstances, like severe child abuse, getting stranded in the wilderness,
etc. It's never because there is no food available to those who are hungry
in this society. Every church I have ever attended has an ongoing program
to help the poor, and in this part of the country at least, there is almost
a church on every corner, sometimes several are visible from a single
location.
--
Judson McClendon judmc@sunvaley0.com (remove zero)
Sun Valley Systems http://sunvaley.com
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2007-11-23, 6:55 pm |
|
"LX-i" <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:qYSdndidOJ_SxtranZ2dnUVZ_rGrnZ2d@co
mcast.com...
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
> That's because we have a Republican administration. By reading the
> reports from our media, between 1993-2001, we didn't have any. :) (It
> sounds cynical, but it's the truth. They didn't go away, they just
> weren't reported.)
>
>
> You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. HeyBub
> addressed (humorously, at times, but accurately) some of the reasons the
> US homeless find themselves without a home.
>
>
> I don't know of any organized "turkeys for vets" program. However, that
> being said, there are lots of private charity programs to help those who
> need it. The trick is, you can't just go out on the streets and force
> them to come in and eat. For those who don't ask for the help, there's
> not much that can be done.
>
>
> By far, the biggest charities in this country are private. Nearly every
> city has a "rescue mission" run by a group of religious organizations,
> that provide meals and shelter. My father used to go to the one in
> Knoxville, TN every Thursday, and talk with the (mostly) men while they
> were there. The Salvation Army is another (very large) group that can
> provide these things. Also, there are food banks that solicit donations
> (and may also be partly funded by individual charities, or part of a
> charity group such as the United Way) - in fact, my sons and I helped sort
> food at the local food bank this past Sunday.
>
> Of course, state governments (partially funded by federal monies) do have
> programs such as food stamps and subsidized housing. However, some places
> have waiting lists for subsidized housing, and most states now have limits
> on these programs, as they're intended to be a hand up, not a hand-out.
>
> True, not everyone has "a turkey" on Thanksgiving - but in most cases,
> only stubborn pride or other personal choice would make someone go hungry.
>
Thanks Daniel.
I think the posts in this thread have demonstrated that there is help
available. As you noted, sometimes people are too proud (or too screwed up
as a result of their experiences) to ask for help.
It isn't just about having Agencies in place; it is also about whether
people care or not.
It seems that at least the posters in CLC certainly DO care :-)
It doesn't do any of us any harm to stop a moment and reflect on the less
fortunate, as we enjoy the fruits of our labour.
As Christmas approaches here, I'm glad that all the kids I know will have a
good time, but I'm also conscious there are kids I don't know, who won't...
Fortunately, there are actions I can (and will) take to do something about
this, even if in a small way.
Is it conscience? Should we feel guilty because we are doing well?
I'd like to think we shouldn't, provided opportunity is more or less equal
for all.
And I don't think the spectre of "the Beggar at the Gate" should spoil our
enjoyment of happy times.
But we shouldn't scorn the Beggar, either.
Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."
| |
|
| Judson McClendon wrote:
> "LX-i" <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote:
>
> A few presidential elections ago one of the candidates (Alan Keys, IIRC)
> was challenged by a liberal and asked "What about all the starving people
> in the U.S.?" Keys responded "Okay, how many people starved to death in
> the U.S. so far this year? How about last year? How about the last decade?"
> The liberal was speachless, and didn't have a response. Keys knew, unlike
> the liberals in the U.S., that starvation in this country is virtually
> unknown. In the extremely rare cases, it's always because of special
> circumstances, like severe child abuse, getting stranded in the wilderness,
> etc. It's never because there is no food available to those who are hungry
> in this society. Every church I have ever attended has an ongoing program
> to help the poor, and in this part of the country at least, there is almost
> a church on every corner, sometimes several are visible from a single
> location.
The cover for this month's Limbaugh Letter (supported by the lead
article) summed it up rather succinctly, I think...
"Every American Is a Have"
(as opposed to a have-not)
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \/ _ o ~ Live from Albuquerque, NM! ~
~ _ /\ | ~ ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ Business E-mail ~ daniel @ "Business Website" below ~
~ Business Website ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~
~ Tech Blog ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com/linux/blog ~
~ Personal E-mail ~ "Personal Blog" as e-mail address ~
~ Personal Blog ~ http://daniel.summershome.org ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ !O M--
V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e h---- r+++ z++++
"Who is more irrational? A man who believes in a God he doesn't see,
or a man who's offended by a God he doesn't believe in?" - Brad Stine
| |
|
| Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
> It doesn't do any of us any harm to stop a moment and reflect on the less
> fortunate, as we enjoy the fruits of our labour.
>
> As Christmas approaches here, I'm glad that all the kids I know will have a
> good time, but I'm also conscious there are kids I don't know, who won't...
> Fortunately, there are actions I can (and will) take to do something about
> this, even if in a small way.
Everyone's small actions add up - it's when people think "Oh, *my*
insignificant contribution doesn't matter" and stop contributing that
there's a problem. :)
> Is it conscience? Should we feel guilty because we are doing well?
Heck no. :)
> I'd like to think we shouldn't, provided opportunity is more or less equal
> for all.
True. I've seen many people who've said "I can't" before they tried
actually find out that they could. It takes courage, sometimes, and it
certainly takes motivation. Sometimes it takes some swallowing of the
pride as well. Some people would rather go without than do menial work.
(This goes a long way to explaining our entire illegal immigrant
situation over here ("doing 'the jobs American's won't do'"), but that's
a different topic for a different newsgroup, for people who have more
time than I do.)
> And I don't think the spectre of "the Beggar at the Gate" should spoil our
> enjoyment of happy times.
>
> But we shouldn't scorn the Beggar, either.
True. Occasionally, I'll offer food to one who claims he's hungry. In
the past few years, *without exception* they've declined. It's not food
they're after, it's money; usually blown on alcohol. But then, we're
back to the whole "choices put them there" thing.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \/ _ o ~ Live from Albuquerque, NM! ~
~ _ /\ | ~ ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ Business E-mail ~ daniel @ "Business Website" below ~
~ Business Website ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~
~ Tech Blog ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com/linux/blog ~
~ Personal E-mail ~ "Personal Blog" as e-mail address ~
~ Personal Blog ~ http://daniel.summershome.org ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ !O M--
V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e h---- r+++ z++++
"Who is more irrational? A man who believes in a God he doesn't see,
or a man who's offended by a God he doesn't believe in?" - Brad Stine
| |
| Robert 2007-11-24, 3:55 am |
| On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 13:09:43 +1300, "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz>
wrote:
>
>I think the important thing here is knowing that help IS available if people
>choose to avail themselves of it.
>
>No society could ever be considered "Great" if it shows no responsibility to
>its citizens, or is prepared to discard a certain sector of them.
Last w I talked to a young black man about the difference between American cities. He
said he judges people by how well they treat their homeless. It was obvious he was
speaking from personal experience. He said the people of Houston TX were the best. Every
Sunday they set up banquets in the parks. Having lived in Houston three months ago, and in
Texas most of my life, I commented that Houston is not a very Texan city, Houstonians act
and talk like they're from Louisiana. He asked what a Texan is like. I answered arrogant
and redneck, offered Dallas as an example.
We agreed that Houston has three 'downtown' districts of high rise buildings -- the old
downtown, the medical district and the Galleria district, where I lived. I said it was so
materialistic and yuppie oriented that you could navigate to the Galleria based on the
density of Starbucks. When you are across the street from it on Westheimer, there is a
Starbucks every half block.
My memory of Houston is that it's the best 'foodie' city in the US. Supermarkets in the
Galleria district are first rate, and there are many world-class restaurants. I couldn't
get over the large number of Middle Eastern cafeterias patronized by ordinary Americans.
My favorites were Vietnamese restaurants out by the west loop and coffee shops selling
beignets (French/New Orleans style donuts).
If you doubt your own judgement, there's an easy way to assess food quality. Go by the
number of beautiful women. They seem to have an instinctive affinity for good food. The
H.E.B. supermarket on Westheimer has the highest concentration of beautiful women shoppers
I've ever seen.
| |
| Judson McClendon 2007-11-24, 7:55 am |
| "LX-i" <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote:
>
> True. Occasionally, I'll offer food to one who claims he's hungry. In the past few years, *without exception* they've declined.
> It's not food they're after, it's money; usually blown on alcohol. But then, we're back to the whole "choices put them there"
> thing.
My experience is similar. When approached by a street person who asks
for money, saying they're hungry, I have never had one person accept
a meal when offered. In fact, if your purpose was to get them to leave
you alone as quickly as possible, that would be a good strategy.
--
Judson McClendon judmc@sunvaley0.com (remove zero)
Sun Valley Systems http://sunvaley.com
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
| |
|
| In article <13kdm6jfaq3t0e0@corp.supernews.com>,
HeyBub <heybub@gmail.com> wrote:
>Pete Dashwood wrote:
[snip]
[color=darkred]
>
>Most systemic problems in America can be traced to an up-stream liberal
>program that failed.
>
>In the case at hand, the institutionalization of the mentally disturbed was
>challenged on the grounds that many were not a hazard to themselves or to
>society and, therefore, should not be placed in supervised facilities. The
>insane asylums were emptied.
The defunding of mental health institututions is a matter of public record
and easily researched.
To call the requirement that a person be shown to be a danger to
themselves or others in order to be involuntarily committed 'traceable to
a failed liberal program' is the result of some rather... curious
thinking, probably of a freedom-hating 'We Know What's Best For You' sort,
and most likely ignorant of certain Truths which are held Self-Evident.
DD
| |
| HeyBub 2007-11-24, 6:55 pm |
| Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
> Hmmmm.... let me see if I have this right...
>
> 1. Someone commits an anti-social act. (felony)
> 2. The society then disenfranchises him/her because they are not
> considered fit to be part of society?
>
> Doesn't that simply alienate them further and make the chance of
> rehabilitation that much less?
Sure. But there's the bigger view.
There are, classically, three reasons for punishment:
1. To protect society from further depradations by the miscreant,
2. To rehabilitate the offender, and
3. To serve as a deterrent to others similiarily inclined.
(note "retribution" is not on the "approved" list)
A condemmed man once plead to the Mayor of London as they stood together on
the gallows: "Whatcha hangin' me for, gov'nor? Hangin' me won't bring back
Louie?" To which the mayor responded: "Oh, we're not hanging you because you
killed Louie, we're hanging you so that others won't kill."
Anyway, it is felt that a life-long penalty operates to discourage others
from rascally behavior. The following sanctions are but a small example of
things a formerly convicted felon cannot do once released from confinement
(varies by jurisdiction):
1. Vote
2. Be an accountant, medical doctor, dentist, architect, nurse, licensed
engineer, commercial airline pilot, public school teacher or school bus
driver, notary pubic, lawyer, or hold elective office.
3. Be a master of a ship.
4. Own an establishment that sells alcoholic beverages.
5. Obtain a license to transport hazardous chemicals.
6. Own an pest-control company, beauty parlor, or nursery (either child or
plant).
7. Purchase or possess a firearm.
8. Become a securities dealer, stock broker, real-estate broker, or obtain a
financial bond.
9. Serve (in most cases) in the military.
10. Become a peace officer, prison guard, fire-fighter, forest ranger, court
baliff, or court stenographer.
11. Involved, in any way, in a gambling establishment.
These are SOME of the activities prohibited by law.
As a practical matter, private employment in banks, nuclear power plants,
commercial transportation, pharmacies, and thousands of other fields is
gainsayed simply because the private employer would open himself to
substantial real and legal risks.
> Crime and punishment are probably the most complex issues we ever
> have to deal with, in any society.
>
> My own view is that if there is the slightest chance of salvaging
> people, we should do so. And if there isn't, then let's not prolong
> the agony or impose a further burden on the taxpayer...
The current (unstated) view is by keeping them locked up during the
testosterone-abundant (and reproductive) years, the crime problem will
diminish.
With 2.25 million people incarcerated in the U.S., we have ample experience
with the problem.
http://ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm
>
> It came from the TV news... I have no idea how accurate it is.
>
>
> I think this is "tongue-in-ch", right :-)
Well, lots has been/is being done. As for results, well, no. But the effort
does make the benefactor feel good, so I guess that's worth something.
All manner of government-sponsored programs have been tried. Over and over
again. Homes, counseling, physical check-ups, jobs, training, education, and
so on. Virtually every single effort for thirty years has reported miniscule
success. For example, the success rate at federal drug-treatment facilities
(success = drug-free for one year after release) has never exceeded six
percent.
>
> Rick's post indicates that some things are being done.
So was mine. With 9-12 million homeless, having only 800,000 without turkey
shows various outreach programs are successful. As long as success is
measured in turkey units...
Things CAN change. Hurricane Katrina forced large-scale relocations into
areas that did not have a generational tradition of handouts and failure. I
imagine any number of Black men from the ghettos of New Orleans now faced
with a job in Salt Lake City: "You mean all I has to do is stand behind the
counter and make Slurpees? And get PAID for it? Damn, man, that's  !"
Very many of the former residents of New Orleans, some tenth-generation
welfare recipients, are now productive members of their new communities.
I had one Houston police officer tell me that all of the Katrina evacuees
he's arrested for walking down the sidewalk with a Malt Liquor in one hand,
a joint in the other, and a pistol in the belt, are astonished that they've
hit an arrestable offense! In N.O., they got a citation or a "Go forth and
sin no more" lecture.
| |
| HeyBub 2007-11-24, 6:55 pm |
| docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
> The defunding of mental health institututions is a matter of public
> record and easily researched.
>
> To call the requirement that a person be shown to be a danger to
> themselves or others in order to be involuntarily committed
> 'traceable to a failed liberal program' is the result of some
> rather... curious thinking, probably of a freedom-hating 'We Know
> What's Best For You' sort, and most likely ignorant of certain Truths
> which are held Self-Evident.
No, I didn't make myself clear. Being committed to a mental institution
becase one is a danger to himself or the community is still valid.
What the ACLU wanted - and got - was the requirement that danger be the ONLY
condition for incarceration. Loosing the non-dangerous loons in the name of
liberty was the failed program to which I referred.
| |
| HeyBub 2007-11-24, 6:55 pm |
| Judson McClendon wrote:
> "LX-i" <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote:
>
> A few presidential elections ago one of the candidates (Alan Keys,
> IIRC) was challenged by a liberal and asked "What about all the
> starving people in the U.S.?" Keys responded "Okay, how many people
> starved to death in the U.S. so far this year? How about last year?
> How about the last decade?" The liberal was speachless, and didn't
> have a response. Keys knew, unlike the liberals in the U.S., that
> starvation in this country is virtually unknown. In the extremely
> rare cases, it's always because of special circumstances, like severe
> child abuse, getting stranded in the wilderness, etc. It's never
> because there is no food available to those who are hungry in this
> society. Every church I have ever attended has an ongoing program to
> help the poor, and in this part of the country at least, there is
> almost a church on every corner, sometimes several are visible from a
> single location.
There has never been a famine in a democracy.
| |
|
| In article <13kgg2vco49ttb6@corp.supernews.com>,
HeyBub <heybub@gmail.com> wrote:
>docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
>No, I didn't make myself clear. Being committed to a mental institution
>becase one is a danger to himself or the community is still valid.
How very gracious of you to allow for such a possibility.
>
>What the ACLU wanted - and got - was the requirement that danger be the ONLY
>condition for incarceration. Loosing the non-dangerous loons in the name of
>liberty was the failed program to which I referred.
Given that it is difficulty enough to determine how individuals ar to be
determined 'dangers to themselves or to others'... how much tricker is it
to deprive a citizen of Liberty for being a mere 'loon'? What you seem to
be advocating - in your 'jokes' ('Oh, you saw that hurtful, hate-filled
jab I made as an insult? It was a *joke*, you know... what's the matter,
Sensitive Folks are now complaining about 'jokes'?') is that it would be
of benefit for a society to be able to derprive citizens of their liberty
based on, say... oh, I dunno, disagreement with a certain political
system... you know, the way they used to do it in the USSR.
'Those sound like sentiments from Liberals... everyone knows that
disagreeing with My Party's Line is a surefire indication of criminal or
lunatic tendencies so let's lock 'em up, boys!'
DD
| |
|
| In article <13kgfmra48gpuaf@corp.supernews.com>,
HeyBub <heybub@gmail.com> wrote:
>Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
>Sure. But there's the bigger view.
>
>There are, classically, three reasons for punishment:
>
>1. To protect society from further depradations by the miscreant,
>2. To rehabilitate the offender, and
>3. To serve as a deterrent to others similiarily inclined.
>(note "retribution" is not on the "approved" list)
Most interesting... you might want to go through Kai Ericksson's book
'Wayward Puritans' for another view on how the waya society deals with
behaviors is done for at least one other reason than these... and it may
be, perhaps, the most widely-affecting of all.
>
>A condemmed man once plead to the Mayor of London as they stood together on
>the gallows: "Whatcha hangin' me for, gov'nor? Hangin' me won't bring back
>Louie?" To which the mayor responded: "Oh, we're not hanging you because you
>killed Louie, we're hanging you so that others won't kill."
.... and ever since then folks haven't been killin'... and I am the King of
England.
DD
| |
| HeyBub 2007-11-24, 6:55 pm |
| docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
> How very gracious of you to allow for such a possibility.
I just report the facts, but I appreciate the sentiment.
>
>
> Given that it is difficulty enough to determine how individuals ar to
> be determined 'dangers to themselves or to others'... how much
> tricker is it to deprive a citizen of Liberty for being a mere
> 'loon'?
Yeah, I agree. Loonishness is hard to define, but I know it when I see it.
> What you seem to be advocating - in your 'jokes' ('Oh, you
> saw that hurtful, hate-filled jab I made as an insult? It was a
> *joke*, you know... what's the matter, Sensitive Folks are now
> complaining about 'jokes'?')
Well, yeah. And other things that offend them. Just the other day a Kansas
city Boy Scout was suspended from school for ten days for using the word
"noose."
http://www.myfoxkc.com/myfox/pages/...TY&pageId=3.2.1
Yet when some sailor with a long grey beard runs up, grabs my collar with a
skinny hand, and screams "There was a ship!" to suggest that he be, um,
institutionalized is considered an outrage.
> is that it would be of benefit for a
> society to be able to derprive citizens of their liberty based on,
> say... oh, I dunno, disagreement with a certain political system...
> you know, the way they used to do it in the USSR.
It's not what they THINK that's the issue, it's what they DO. Used to be:
"The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the poor,
to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."
It's probably still against the law to steal bread. In some jurisdictions.
| |
|
| In article <13khgrei2suiuc3@corp.supernews.com>,
HeyBub <heybub@gmail.com> wrote:
>docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
>I just report the facts, but I appreciate the sentiment.
What facts one deems worthy of reporting might, perhaps, say more about
one'sself than about anything else.
>
>Yeah, I agree. Loonishness is hard to define, but I know it when I see it.
What a coincidence... so do e'er-so-many other folks. For what reasons
might your self-confessed knowledge be more worthy of action than theirs?
>
>
>Well, yeah. And other things that offend them. Just the other day a Kansas
>city Boy Scout was suspended from school for ten days for using the word
>"noose."
>
>http://www.myfoxkc.com/myfox/pages/...TY&pageId=3.2.1
As my Sainted Paternal Grandfather - may he sleep with the angels! - used
to say, 'Mail Gets Delivered, Garbage Picked Up, Trains Run On Time...
these aren't headlines, at least not usually.'
Decades on back I was consulting in Manhattan and one of my co-consultants
(a emigre from the Ukraine) accosted me on my arrival, saying 'Did you see
that? Right there, in the headlines, on the front page, two Jewish boys
got beat up by a bunch of drunken Irish students on a college campus!'
I replied 'New York City, I believe, has been said to contain several
million Jews... two get beat up and it makes the headlines? Life must be
very, very good.'
>
>Yet when some sailor with a long grey beard runs up, grabs my collar with a
>skinny hand, and screams "There was a ship!" to suggest that he be, um,
>institutionalized is considered an outrage.
When such a thing happens to you I think you might be able to test that
assertion... until then, consider it relegated to the appropriate file.
>
>
>It's not what they THINK that's the issue, it's what they DO.
'Disagreement' is a doing, last I looked... and lumping folks who
disagreed with the Politically Correct Line was, in the USSR, at times a
ticket to the asylum.
I will do my best, in all manner, to make sure that this is not in *my*
United States of America, thanks much. You don't like it, take it to
Cuba.
DD
| |
| tlmfru 2007-11-24, 9:56 pm |
|
Pete Dashwood <dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:5qp7loF11bh8qU1@mid.individual.net...
>
>
> "tlmfru" <lacey@mts.net> wrote in message
> news:Y%F1j.359$so3.273@newsfe18.lga...
****> Well, Peter, at least he has a sense of humour... :-)[color=darkred]
their[color=darkred]
>
***> I think it was a joke... (hope so :-)). Anyway, it made me smile...
>
>
> Whatever else HeyBub may be, he has demonstrated through long time posts
> here that he is not venomous. In fact, some of his posts are the most
> entertaining I find here.
>
> I think this is a case where you took it a bit too literally, Peter.
>
Concerning the above remarks, originally made by Heybub, and approved by P.
Dashwood:
I find it significant that Heybub thought it necessary to claim he was
joking. If he'd been making fun of HIMSELF I might have found it so, too,
but he wasn't. If his entire posting is meant to be funny, I can't find a
single line in it that comes across as anything but nasty.
There's a certain kind of personality that finds offensive things funny if
they are directed at someone else. Turn the remarks against them and their
best response is a wounded plea: I just meant it as a joke. Such persons
find bullying and actual abuse amusing if it's aimed at people or groups
that they don't like.
I'll remind everybody that a while ago I was roundly panned in this
newsgroup for suggesting that most humour consists of MAKING FUN of someone
else. Heybub's remarks, if intended that way, make a classic example.
Perhaps you gents could analyze the original posting and tell me and other
joking-challenged persons which sentences are meant to be funny and which
are meant to be factual.
I am indeed from Canada; we regard the US as a demented older uncle. We
shudder at the ignorance of its leadership. We console ourselves with the
thought that said leadership reflects its contituents.
PL
| |
| Charles Hottel 2007-11-24, 9:56 pm |
|
"Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:5qp9sqF119au0U1@mid.individual.net...
>
>
> "LX-i" <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:qYSdndidOJ_SxtranZ2dnUVZ_rGrnZ2d@co
mcast.com...
>
> Thanks Daniel.
>
> I think the posts in this thread have demonstrated that there is help
> available. As you noted, sometimes people are too proud (or too screwed up
> as a result of their experiences) to ask for help.
>
> It isn't just about having Agencies in place; it is also about whether
> people care or not.
>
> It seems that at least the posters in CLC certainly DO care :-)
>
> It doesn't do any of us any harm to stop a moment and reflect on the less
> fortunate, as we enjoy the fruits of our labour.
>
> As Christmas approaches here, I'm glad that all the kids I know will have
> a good time, but I'm also conscious there are kids I don't know, who
> won't... Fortunately, there are actions I can (and will) take to do
> something about this, even if in a small way.
>
> Is it conscience? Should we feel guilty because we are doing well?
>
> I'd like to think we shouldn't, provided opportunity is more or less equal
> for all.
>
> And I don't think the spectre of "the Beggar at the Gate" should spoil our
> enjoyment of happy times.
>
> But we shouldn't scorn the Beggar, either.
>
> Pete.
> --
> "I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."
>
Somtimes I do feel guilty about doing so well. It was quite a shock to hear
just how many homeless vets there are. This was in the news here recently,
so maybe it is just now finding its way to New Zealand or you just came
across it. I don't know of specific programs for helping vets on
Thanksgiving but there are many places in this area where any poor person
can get a free Thanksgiving meal. The rest of the year besides Thanksgiving
and Christmas are probably harder.
Of course I am well aware that there are many homeless people. When I
worked downtown in Washington DC there were plenty of them begging, sleeping
on steam vents and elsewhere, and doing other things best left undescribed.
There are homless shelters but many will not go there even on the coldest
nights. They do go around giving them blankets and encouraging them to go
to shelters. Recently I saw some camping out in tents and lawn chairs in
the median strip of the Southwest Freeway. Many of them are alcoholic and
want money for booze. Some even have babies and small children with them
when soliciting money. They say they are hungry but they want money for
booze. One lady made sandwichs and offered them but they were refused.
This last summer on my many trips to and from he hospital on guy was honest
enough to say on his sign that he wanted a beer. (Ok this is a
generalization and is not true in all cases). Once I had a part time job
at the Drug Enforcement Agency at night in a fairly run down area with
prostitutes etc. I used to go out to a liquor store to get diet soda.
There was a very dirty and smelly guy in front of me who bought a lot of
liquor. He pulled out a large roll of cash to pay for it. This happened on
a regular basis. Apaprently begging can be quite lucrative.
So what's my point? I don't feel that I have the expertise to deal directly
with these people, although I have given some of them some small amounts of
cash a very few times. Later I always wonderd if I did more harm than good.
I do give to the Salvation Army via the Combined Federal Campaign as I think
they are much better prepared than I am to deal with these homeless persons.
Do I give enough? How much is enough? Some passages in the Bible indicate a
tithe of 10%. I doubt if I am giving that much although I don't actually
try to keep track. I tend to put myself and my family first as I have been
saving and investing earnestly for 15 to 20 years in order to supplement my
retirement, part of which will come from social security, which future
solvancy is in doubt. I do know that if asked to part with all my "great
wealth" like the story of the rich young ruler I would find it impossible to
do so. The flowers of the field are cared for but they are mighty cold in
winter. I guess I personally feel a lot of angst about all of this. I did
up my contributions for next year partly because of the homeless vets news
but it is hard to know how much is enough since even giving everthing will
not likely solve the problem. I think a lot of effort is being made but the
problem seems to be growing.
| |
| Charles Hottel 2007-11-24, 9:56 pm |
|
"Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:5qp6v0F118t5lU1@mid.individual.net...
>
>
> "HeyBub" <heybub@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:13kdm6jfaq3t0e0@corp.supernews.com...
>
> Yes, a similar program happened here in NZ and also in England. In our
> population (just over 4 million) it doesn't matter too much, but in a
> larger population it can be disastrous...
>
<snip>
I thought it was the lawyers and the ACLU that got them set free.
| |
| Robert 2007-11-25, 3:55 am |
| On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 23:18:39 +1300, "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz>
wrote:
>Can/is anything be/ing done?
Retraining is available to Cobol programmers. Most of them stubbornly refuse to learn OO.
Apparently, they prefer to be unemployed.
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2007-11-25, 6:55 pm |
|
"tlmfru" <lacey@mts.net> wrote in message
news:Bq52j.4725$ip1.1415@newsfe21.lga...
>
> Pete Dashwood <dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:5qp7loF11bh8qU1@mid.individual.net...
> ****> Well, Peter, at least he has a sense of humour... :-)
> their
> ***> I think it was a joke... (hope so :-)). Anyway, it made me smile...
>
> Concerning the above remarks, originally made by Heybub, and approved by
> P.
> Dashwood:
>
> I find it significant that Heybub thought it necessary to claim he was
> joking. If he'd been making fun of HIMSELF I might have found it so, too,
> but he wasn't. If his entire posting is meant to be funny, I can't find a
> single line in it that comes across as anything but nasty.
That reflects more on you than it does on him, Peter.
He only claimed he was joking AFTER you took his comments seriously.
His entire post was not a joke, but there were parts that were. Venomous it
wasn't.
Did you seriously think HeyBub thinks that all Democrats are insane?
It is the juxtaposition of these ideas which makes it amusing.
>
> There's a certain kind of personality that finds offensive things funny if
> they are directed at someone else.
Not me. And I don't think HeyBub does either. Sometimes people are easily
offended, and sometimes offence is taken where none was intended.
>Turn the remarks against them and their
> best response is a wounded plea: I just meant it as a joke. Such persons
> find bullying and actual abuse amusing if it's aimed at people or groups
> that they don't like.
>
> I'll remind everybody that a while ago I was roundly panned in this
> newsgroup for suggesting that most humour consists of MAKING FUN of
> someone
> else.
Ah, now I see the source of your sensitivity...:-)
I don't recall the "panning" you refer to but I'd agree that SOME humour can
consist of making fun of people and situations. In general, this is not the
best source of humour and most posters here would avoid it. (That's probably
why there was general disagreement with your point.) Most of us give and
take personal ribbing from friends and colleagues PROVIDED it is not "meant
to wound".
>Heybub's remarks, if intended that way, make a classic example.
>
The key point here is "if intended"...
> Perhaps you gents could analyze the original posting and tell me and other
> joking-challenged persons which sentences are meant to be funny and which
> are meant to be factual.
Well, I was tempted to do exactly that, but there isn't much point; for the
most part, a joke explained is a joke that's lost.
> I am indeed from Canada; we regard the US as a demented older uncle. We
> shudder at the ignorance of its leadership. We console ourselves with the
> thought that said leadership reflects its contituents.
And you don't think that's offensive?
Whether I agree with you or not :-), the difference here is that you are
lashing out as a reaction to perceived offence, and your statement is meant
to wound. See the difference?
I know very well from your previous posts here that you are not vitriolic by
nature, but now you have been stung and are posting stuff that you wouldn't
normally. You can save yourself some irritation and anger if you don't rise
to HeyBub's (or anyone else's...) bait quite so readily.
It was not meant to wound, Peter.
Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2007-11-25, 6:55 pm |
|
"HeyBub" <heybub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:13khgrei2suiuc3@corp.supernews.com...
> docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
> Yet when some sailor with a long grey beard runs up, grabs my collar with
> a skinny hand, and screams "There was a ship!" to suggest that he be, um,
> institutionalized is considered an outrage.
>
ROFL!
Just wanted to let you know that S. T. Coleridge is rolling in his grave....
laughing...:-)
Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."
| |
| HeyBub 2007-11-25, 6:55 pm |
| tlmfru wrote:
> I'll remind everybody that a while ago I was roundly panned in this
> newsgroup for suggesting that most humour consists of MAKING FUN of
> someone else. Heybub's remarks, if intended that way, make a classic
> example.
>
> Perhaps you gents could analyze the original posting and tell me and
> other joking-challenged persons which sentences are meant to be funny
> and which are meant to be factual.
It's called "gallows humor."
>
> I am indeed from Canada; we regard the US as a demented older uncle.
> We shudder at the ignorance of its leadership. We console ourselves
> with the thought that said leadership reflects its contituents.
While many Americans view Canada as "America's attic," the place we keep our
crazy aunts.
| |
| HeyBub 2007-11-25, 6:55 pm |
| Pete Dashwood wrote:
> "HeyBub" <heybub@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:13khgrei2suiuc3@corp.supernews.com...
> ROFL!
>
> Just wanted to let you know that S. T. Coleridge is rolling in his
> grave.... laughing...:-)
Let's take him for a spin: walk down 42nd Street.
| |
| HeyBub 2007-11-25, 6:55 pm |
| Charles Hottel wrote:
>
> Somtimes I do feel guilty about doing so well.
Don't be. The poor can't give to charity. In the 13th century, Maimonides
postulated the (I think) twelve degrees of charity. The highest on the list
was to loan someone funds so that he could start his own business. 'Course
the Rambam was Jewish...
> It was quite a shock
> to hear just how many homeless vets there are. This was in the news
> here recently, so maybe it is just now finding its way to New Zealand
> or you just came across it. I don't know of specific programs for
> helping vets on Thanksgiving but there are many places in this area
> where any poor person can get a free Thanksgiving meal. The rest of
> the year besides Thanksgiving and Christmas are probably harder.
>
> So what's my point? I don't feel that I have the expertise to deal
> directly with these people, although I have given some of them some
> small amounts of cash a very few times. Later I always wonderd if I
> did more harm than good. I do give to the Salvation Army via the
> Combined Federal Campaign as I think they are much better prepared
> than I am to deal with these homeless persons. Do I give enough? How
> much is enough? Some passages in the Bible indicate a tithe of 10%. I
> doubt if I am giving that much although I don't actually try to
> keep track. I tend to put myself and my family first as I have been
> saving and investing earnestly for 15 to 20 years in order to
> supplement my retirement, part of which will come from social
> security, which future solvancy is in doubt.
If you have a job, it is almost impossible NOT to contribute more than 10%
of your earnings to "charity." They call it "taxation."
| |
|
| In article <13kk130bmimcoe9@corp.supernews.com>,
HeyBub <heybub@gmail.com> wrote:
>Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
>Let's take him for a spin: walk down 42nd Street.
Have you been down that particular lane since it was 'sold into private
hands'? Things have changed a bit there and Coleridge might have a bit of
trouble finding derivatives of his favorite opiates now.
DD
| |
| HeyBub 2007-11-26, 7:55 am |
| docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
> Have you been down that particular lane since it was 'sold into
> private hands'? Things have changed a bit there and Coleridge might
> have a bit of trouble finding derivatives of his favorite opiates now.
>
No, I haven't been to NY since Rudy cleaned it up. I prefer a challenge.
Perhaps I should have said:
"... walk any street that has the '42nd Street Regulars' "
I do remember having dinner with my son at the Howard Johnson's on Times
Square. The waiter asked if we wanted a booth next to a window so we could
enjoy the floor show.
| |
|
| In article <5qvqq5F11lra1U1@mid.individual.net>,
Pete Dashwood <dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
><docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:fie681$j6f$1@reader1.panix.com...
>
>Would that be the Kublai Khan Korporation that bought it? :-)
I'd doubt it, Mr Dashwood... in the United States of America folks tend to
be a bit wary of naming organisations with words that can be reduced to
'KKK', see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_klux_klan .
>It is many years since I was in New York (around about 1994, I think). I
>remember being warned at the hotel not to go strolling down there at night,
>so, of course, I did. I don't recall seeing anything untoward, and my stroll
>was uneventful.
I've spent a fair amount of time in a variety of different decades in
that area and my experiences are likewise, Mr Dashwood... but my
experiences might not be those of everyone else.
DD
| |
|
| In article <13klgujge1a7leb@corp.supernews.com>,
HeyBub <heybub@gmail.com> wrote:
>docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
>No, I haven't been to NY since Rudy cleaned it up.
Places change over time... perhaps one might revisit a decades-old
prejudice and apply to it the changes the intervening years have wrought.
>I prefer a challenge.
Like the streets of Chicago, where bootleggers mow down their opposition
with Tommy-guns? Oh, wait, that stereotype is outdated, as well.
DD
| |
| Howard Brazee 2007-11-26, 9:57 pm |
| On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 23:18:39 +1300, "Pete Dashwood"
<dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>Surely there must be programs to prevent servicepeople from just being
>thrown on the scrapheap? We wouildn't want to do that with ANYONE, but
>especially not those who have rendered service to their country and done
>their duty as it was called (leaving aside the rights and wrongs of US
>foreign policy).
There's always a conflict here. We fight it when the truly needy
compete with us, offering to work for lower wages so that they can
survive.
Even when the alternative is chopping down the rainforest or over
fishing the oceans - which we will end up paying for - we don't want
our salaries cut.
(And that's not even considering how many millionaires we see who are
getting richer and more numerous).
So we like to limit our giving to those who don't threaten our
lifestyles more than an occasional gift.
I don't know what to do about this other than try to not be so upset
when I loose my job opportunities to foreign competition.
| |
| Howard Brazee 2007-11-26, 9:57 pm |
| On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 07:42:52 -0600, "HeyBub" <heybub@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Most systemic problems in America can be traced to an up-stream liberal
>program that failed.
The world is full of variety - so I ask you:
Which conservative alternatives have worked better?
| |
| Howard Brazee 2007-11-26, 9:57 pm |
| On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 09:10:29 -0600, "HeyBub" <heybub@gmail.com> wrote:
>There are, classically, three reasons for punishment:
>
>1. To protect society from further depradations by the miscreant,
>2. To rehabilitate the offender, and
>3. To serve as a deterrent to others similiarily inclined.
>(note "retribution" is not on the "approved" list)
Maybe not - but it seems to be the most popular reason.
| |
| Howard Brazee 2007-11-26, 9:57 pm |
| On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 10:44:37 -0600, Robert <no@e.mail> wrote:
>Percentage of homeless who are veterans is close to the percentage of the general
>population who are veterans. 21% of American males over 18 are veterans and 1% are active
>duty military.
>
>Average income of veteran males is higher than nonveteran males -- 35,088 versus 30,875.
Doesn't the military require everybody to be high school graduates?
Excluding everybody in the general population who don't qualify for
the military makes these statistics misleading. (although possibly
not your point).
| |
| Howard Brazee 2007-11-26, 9:57 pm |
| On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 18:17:50 -0600, "Judson McClendon"
<judmc@sunvaley0.com> wrote:
> Keys responded "Okay, how many people starved to death in
>the U.S. so far this year? How about last year? How about the last decade?"
>The liberal was speachless, and didn't have a response. Keys knew, unlike
>the liberals in the U.S., that starvation in this country is virtually
>unknown. In the extremely rare cases, it's always because of special
>circumstances, like severe child abuse, getting stranded in the wilderness,
>etc. It's never because there is no food available to those who are hungry
>in this society. Every church I have ever attended has an ongoing program
>to help the poor, and in this part of the country at least, there is almost
>a church on every corner, sometimes several are visible from a single
>location.
Karen Carpenter...
| |
| Howard Brazee 2007-11-26, 9:57 pm |
| On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:01:30 -0600, Robert <no@e.mail> wrote:
>Retraining is available to Cobol programmers.
Retraining is available to people.
>Most of them stubbornly refuse to learn OO.
>Apparently, they prefer to be unemployed.
Cite?
| |
| Doug Miller 2007-11-26, 9:57 pm |
| In article <a0qlk3lgu41cr2pg3hs8s9m2epbgetsv25@4ax.com>, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 18:17:50 -0600, "Judson McClendon"
><judmc@sunvaley0.com> wrote:
>
>
>Karen Carpenter...
I would think mental illness qualifies as one of the "special circumstances"
referred to above; certainly, the cause of Karen Carpenter's death was *not*
unavailability of food.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphag at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
| |
| Judson McClendon 2007-11-26, 9:57 pm |
| "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net> wrote:
> "Judson McClendon" <judmc@sunvaley0.com> wrote:
>
> Karen Carpenter...
Sad, but self inflicted.
--
Judson McClendon judmc@sunvaley0.com (remove zero)
Sun Valley Systems http://sunvaley.com
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
| |
| HeyBub 2007-11-26, 9:57 pm |
| docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
> Places change over time... perhaps one might revisit a decades-old
> prejudice and apply to it the changes the intervening years have
> wrought.
>
>
> Like the streets of Chicago, where bootleggers mow down their
> opposition with Tommy-guns? Oh, wait, that stereotype is outdated,
> as well.
The more things change, the more they stay the same:
"...the Chicago Police Department has seized 519 assault weapons and 400 in
2005 alone..."
http://www.illinois.gov/PressReleas...D=1&RecNum=4591
| |
| Robert 2007-11-26, 9:57 pm |
| On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:35:17 -0700, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 10:44:37 -0600, Robert <no@e.mail> wrote:
>
>
>Doesn't the military require everybody to be high school graduates?
Generally they do, although I believe the Marine Corps still accepts some low precentage
of non-graduates.
>Excluding everybody in the general population who don't qualify for
>the military makes these statistics misleading. (although possibly
>not your point).
I think the explanation is age. There aren't any 18 year old veterans. Also, the military
excludes physically and mentally disabled from entering. It creates some on the exit side.
| |
| Robert 2007-11-26, 9:57 pm |
| On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:39:09 -0700, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> wrote:
>On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:01:30 -0600, Robert <no@e.mail> wrote:
>
>
>Retraining is available to people.
>
>
>Cite?
It was a joke.
| |
| HeyBub 2007-11-26, 9:57 pm |
| Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 07:42:52 -0600, "HeyBub" <heybub@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> The world is full of variety - so I ask you:
>
> Which conservative alternatives have worked better?
Gosh, let me think...
1. Welfare reform, one must have a job to get welfare, such as EIC.
2. Modification of the AFDC (Aid to Families with Dependent Children) to
allow fathers to be in the home.
3. Concealed handgun licenses in 38 states reducing crime.
4. "Lock 'em up and throw away the key" to keep criminals off the street.
5. Tax cuts - this is an omnibus solution. To most conservatives sufficient
tax cuts can restore lost hair, grow bigger chickens, and cure cancer.
6. No Child Left Behind. This hasn't directly improved government schools,
but it has shined a light on incompetent institutions, teachers, and
administrators.
7. Free Trade agreements.
Now that you mention it, though, perhaps not much. Of course another choice
is to do nothing about a perceived 'problem,' inasmuch as tinkering with it
may make it worse. The 'perfect' is often the enemy of the merely 'good.'
| |
| HeyBub 2007-11-26, 9:57 pm |
| Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:01:30 -0600, Robert <no@e.mail> wrote:
>
>
> Retraining is available to people.
>
Well, that's TWO groups. Any others?
| |
|
| In article <13km3s332ja7g37@corp.supernews.com>,
HeyBub <heybub@gmail.com> wrote:
>docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
>
>The more things change, the more they stay the same:
>
>"...the Chicago Police Department has seized 519 assault weapons and 400 in
>2005 alone..."
>
>http://www.illinois.gov/PressReleas...D=1&RecNum=4591
Leave it to a Texan to confuse an 'assault weapon' with a Tommy-gun and
cite government press-releases.
DD
| |
| Howard Brazee 2007-11-26, 9:57 pm |
| On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:34:18 -0600, "HeyBub" <heybub@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Gosh, let me think...
>
>1. Welfare reform, one must have a job to get welfare, such as EIC.
Where have they helped? What was the result of this reform? If it
resulted in poor moving to adjacent states, then I don't see that
anybody was helped, other than taxpayers in one state.
If the Liberal programs contributed to "systemic problems", I suppose
it is necessary to quantify them to decide whether Conservative
programs did better.
All sorts of "reform" happen all the time in democratic countries -
with very little measurable results.
This isn't limited to welfare - but tax laws are constantly reformed
as the tax code gets bigger and bigger.
>2. Modification of the AFDC (Aid to Families with Dependent Children) to
>allow fathers to be in the home.
Do you have figures showing that this caused a decline in "systemic
problems"? Was this a change that the Conservatives fought for and
the Liberals fought against? How many fathers moved home with this
(good) change?
>3. Concealed handgun licenses in 38 states reducing crime.
There are so many places that stats are used to prove the opposite
that I don't have the resources to determine who is correct here. But
if criminals go to the neighboring city to commit crime - we aren't
better off.
>4. "Lock 'em up and throw away the key" to keep criminals off the street.
So "systemic problems" doesn't include our tremendous tax burden.
There are effective alternatives that cost less.
>5. Tax cuts - this is an omnibus solution. To most conservatives sufficient
>tax cuts can restore lost hair, grow bigger chickens, and cure cancer.
The deficit budget is a huge tax. Fiscal conservativeness is all
fine and good for the party who doesn't get to spend the money.
>6. No Child Left Behind. This hasn't directly improved government schools,
>but it has shined a light on incompetent institutions, teachers, and
>administrators.
If it doesn't improve the education of the people, then it hasn't
helped what matters.
>7. Free Trade agreements.
You mean like the ones the Liberals passed and which lots of the
Conservative voters are fighting against?
>Now that you mention it, though, perhaps not much. Of course another choice
>is to do nothing about a perceived 'problem,' inasmuch as tinkering with it
>may make it worse. The 'perfect' is often the enemy of the merely 'good.'
Most of these issues would be better off if we forgot whether they are
"conservative" or "liberal". Labels don't matter. (And how does
Big Business fit in with the same voters as the Religious Right?).
Blaming the other party for "systemic problems" is not solving
anything - when they are still there when the party in power gets
kicked out.
| |
| Howard Brazee 2007-11-26, 9:57 pm |
| On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:29:18 -0600, Robert <no@e.mail> wrote:
>
>It was a joke.
I'm not very good at telling when you are joking. Some of the more
obtuse of us could use a smiley with some of your posts.
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2007-11-27, 3:55 am |
|
"tlmfru" <lacey@mts.net> wrote in message
news:xpH2j.3877$_%4.1885@newsfe15.lga...
>
> Pete Dashwood <dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:5qu3apF11a14mU1@mid.individual.net...
> too,
> a
>
> As Howard Brazee points out later today, some of us could use a smiley or
> a
> <grin> to figure out the difference.
Yes, that is a very valid point. I know sometimes I forget to do that
because it seems so obvious to me that I'm not being serious. I have also
been accused of hiding vitriol behind a smiley (which I would never do...)
> When I see words like "liberal" and
> "Roe", knowing them to be emotional triggers in the US, used in the
> fashion
> he did, the humour escapes me. I might add that I have seen & heard
> similar
> sentiments expressed that were meant to be taken literally: on FOX for one
> souce: that smug Ms. Coulter in particular.
>
LOL! We get Fox here very late at night and I sometimes watch it...I have to
agree with you. In fact, I found most of the programming an insult to the
intelligence of anyone aged more than 11... :-) BBC World, on the other hand
has much better and balanced content.
>
> Wouldn't put it past him.
:-)
>
> if
>
> And sometimes it's just as I say.
Yes, I can't rule it out... :-)
>
> persons
>
> I feel vindicated, not stung. So far as I'm concerned, his post proved my
> point. I like to say "told you so".
Really? Nah, you're pulling my leg, right? :-)
>
> "meant
>
> You are quite aware that even amongst colleagues and friends there is a
> very
> fine line between ribbing and insults. If one has any concern for others'
> feelings one will avoid potentially wounding jokes. And one will also be
> aware of the exact limi | | |