Cobol - Re: [OT] Iraq

Author

Re: [OT] Iraq

LX-i

2007-09-19, 9:55 pm

Pete Dashwood wrote:
> I read these exchanges between Skippy, Howard, and yourself, with interest,
> Daniel.
>
> I have great respect for all three of you and can see how the current US
> Foreign Policy is divisive and debatable.

ANYTHING political in this country is divisive these days. Bush could
issue an executive order saying that the sky was blue, and by noon there
would be a denouncement of this policy by Democrats as narrow and not
well-thought-out. They became unhinged when Bush won Florida in 2000
(as the US Supreme Court stopped the targeted recounts the FL Supreme
Court had allowed, and every recount since found Bush with more votes).
We were more or less united after 9/11, but then they realized that if
Bush's numbers stayed so high, they'd never have any hope of capturing
the White House in 2004.

After the 2004 elections, it had subsided somewhat (though it seems the
2008 candidates began campaigning after the 2004 results were in). When
Democrats took control of both houses of Congress in 2006, they're
emboldened now. The Democrats say it, the national nightly news repeats
it, and all of a sudden you've got political slams on the current
administration in auto reviews, sports stories, you name it.

I've said this before in here, but one of my biggest frustrations with
this current administration (for whom I voted twice, and would do again
given the "other" choice on the ballot) is that it isn't *using* its
resources to educate the American people. What Robert said about an
unchallenged opinion "winning" is exactly what's going on in our country
right now.

The frustration is going to hit a breaking point, and I believe it's
going to play out in the next year leading up to the November 2008
presidential elections. No middle-of-the-road candidate appeals to
their base enough to win the primary; and to this point, there hasn't
been a candidate like Reagan was in 1980 (though Carter's pitiful
administration gave him a huge boost) who can unify 60-65% of the
electorate.

(My pick? It's still way early.)

> I honestly don't know whether the invasion of Iraq was a "mistake", but I
> do know I wouldn't want to see innocent people nuked and America deserves
> credit for NOT doing that.

I agree - but do we get it? Maybe from a fair-minded Kiwi, but where
else? Britain, Australia, New Zealand maybe. Germany and France,
amazingly, are starting to come around.

> Cynics might argue that "turning the desert sand to glass" would have
> destroyed the oil extraction facilities, but I'd like to think it was simple
> humanity that triumphed.

Of course. The problem is that the "in-and-out" back in 1991 had the
anti-Saddam Iraqis very distrustful of the United States, with good
reason. Many of them had family who came over to fight with us - when
we left, they were killed for treason. They didn't want that to happen
again, so it took some time to bring them around.

Plus, when you consider how desperate the Ba'athists and terror
organizations got over seeing their stronghold dismantled, it's easy to
see why, if you weren't just going to raze the place, it was going to
take some time. Bush has been chided countless times for the "Mission
Accomplished" press conference on a Navy ship. What people don't
realize is that the "mission accomplished" declaration was an important
step in getting allies to come in and start rebuilding. We'd had
several nations that didn't want to be part of the regime change, but
once it was done, they would help reconstruct.

> I can't take sides in this argument because I'm really not well enough
> informed on the issues.

Heh - I'm sure folks would disagree with the way I've framed the above.
It's certainly not what's you'd read in the _New York Times_.

> However, I will go on record as disagreeing with one statement you made,
> Daniel.
>
> I don't see American (or NZ or any other...) lives as more important than
> any other lives. We are all valuable, or we're not.
>
> Certainly I'd cry more for my countrymen, but unless we start to realize
> that we make it together or not at all, I don't see much hope for us.
>
> The idea that you can resolve anything by going in quickly, kicking butts,
> and getting out, is not one that should be on the table if a genuine
> solution is being sought.
>
> And that is just as true in everyday life as it is in the formulation of
> foreign policy.

All lives are valuable - I'm with you there. And, we *have* gone in as
humanely as possible and accomplished a lot of good things there. And
where has that gotten us? We're just blood-thirsty, war-mongering,
imperialist pigs who are now setting our sights on Iran. America
doesn't have the stomach for a war that doesn't fit into a TV season.

We get complaints that it "isn't working," but if we actually did what
we would have had to do to make it "work", we'd actually be guilty of
what they're accusing us of. What scares me is the people who believe
this getting in charge. Their short-sighted "peace at all costs" policy
would be dangerous - and, since they're short-sighted, they just don't
see that.

> Pete. (who lives in a very small nation that CAN'T use butt kicking as a
> solution, even if it wanted to :-))

Sure you can - just don't allow any movies to be made there until you
get [whatever]. :) You'd have Hollywood begging to eat out of your hand...

(As an aside, I never realized how many movies were filmed in and around
Albuquerque. It's interesting - they'll close a road for a day to do
their on-location stuff.)

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \/ _ o ~ Live from Albuquerque, NM! ~
~ _ /\ | ~ ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ Business E-mail ~ daniel @ "Business Website" below ~
~ Business Website ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~
~ Tech Blog ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com/linux/blog ~
~ Personal E-mail ~ "Personal Blog" as e-mail address ~
~ Personal Blog ~ http://daniel.summershome.org ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ !O M--
V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e h---- r+++ z++++

"Who is more irrational? A man who believes in a God he doesn't see,
or a man who's offended by a God he doesn't believe in?" - Brad Stine

2007-09-20, 6:55 pm

In article < K5SdnQwcB6ThS2zbnZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d@comcast
.com>,
LX-i <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote:
>Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
>ANYTHING political in this country is divisive these days.

Perhaps insofar as those who participate in it take glee in it being so,
yes. On the other hand, consider the interchange:

Party A: 'We wish to see (x).'

Party B: 'We wish to see (y).'

Party A: 'We are willing to see ((x-y)/2)**a, for certain values of x, y
and a.'

Party B: 'Look! Look! Party A first said they wanted (x), now they say
they want something else... they are inconstant, they don't have a
reliable view, don't trust them because they'll say *anything* to grab and
maintain a hold on the power that controls your lives and the country!'

That, to me, represents a 'taking glee in maintaining divisiveness'... on
the other hand, some see 'being bipartisan' as 'do it *our* way'.

DD

Howard Brazee

2007-09-27, 6:55 pm

On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 20:19:59 -0600, LX-i <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote:

>
>Well, it's not quite compentency I was lamenting - more just not even
>explaining his side! How are people supposed to make informed choices
>when only one side is given?

Don't confuse "competent" with "agrees with me".

LX-i

2007-09-28, 3:55 am

Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 20:19:59 -0600, LX-i <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>
> Don't confuse "competent" with "agrees with me".

You lost me on that - how did you get that from my reply?

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \/ _ o ~ Live from Albuquerque, NM! ~
~ _ /\ | ~ ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ Business E-mail ~ daniel @ "Business Website" below ~
~ Business Website ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~
~ Tech Blog ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com/linux/blog ~
~ Personal E-mail ~ "Personal Blog" as e-mail address ~
~ Personal Blog ~ http://daniel.summershome.org ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ !O M--
V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e h---- r+++ z++++

"Who is more irrational? A man who believes in a God he doesn't see,
or a man who's offended by a God he doesn't believe in?" - Brad Stine

Sponsored Links