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The pre-interview question...
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| HeyBub 2007-08-23, 9:55 pm |
| "The hiring manager described their typical process; Peter would have to
answer a screening question to determine his skill level, and if his answer
was satisfactory, they'd schedule a face-to-face interview. With a little
trepidation, Peter said he was ready for the question. He was concerned that
it could be about a complex topic that he wasn't very familiar with. A few
hours later, an email arrived..."
http://worsethanfailure.com/Article...s-TOO-Good.aspx
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| HeyBub wrote:
> "The hiring manager described their typical process; Peter would have to
> answer a screening question to determine his skill level, and if his answer
> was satisfactory, they'd schedule a face-to-face interview. With a little
> trepidation, Peter said he was ready for the question. He was concerned that
> it could be about a complex topic that he wasn't very familiar with. A few
> hours later, an email arrived..."
>
> http://worsethanfailure.com/Article...s-TOO-Good.aspx
Awesome... :) Although his dynamic query code could be vulnerable to
SQL injection. That's probably the *real* reason he didn't get the gig.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \/ _ o ~ Live from Albuquerque, NM! ~
~ _ /\ | ~ ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ Business E-mail ~ daniel @ "Business Website" below ~
~ Business Website ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~
~ Tech Blog ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com/linux/blog ~
~ Personal E-mail ~ "Personal Blog" as e-mail address ~
~ Personal Blog ~ http://daniel.summershome.org ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ !O M--
V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e h---- r+++ z++++
"Who is more irrational? A man who believes in a God he doesn't see,
or a man who's offended by a God he doesn't believe in?" - Brad Stine
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| Pete Dashwood 2007-08-23, 9:55 pm |
|
"LX-i" <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:3rudnZy62tYlBlDbnZ2dnUVZ_rDinZ2d@co
mcast.com...
> HeyBub wrote:
>
> Awesome... :) Although his dynamic query code could be vulnerable to SQL
> injection. That's probably the *real* reason he didn't get the gig.
>
:-)
Sql injection vulnerablility was the first thing I noticed too :-)
(It's interesting how, once you have to write code to address something,
from then on you become immediately aware of it...)
I don't think that was why they didn't take him on. I accept what they said;
they thought he had cheated.
(Which just shows how stupid they are, and he is well off out of it.However,
that doesn't get him a job...)
This raises some important points for job s ers.
1. Think twice about Companies who screen people via email, then don't
accept the answers they get.
2. Never give too much information before you are at an interview.
"Concatenation is the "joining together" of strings of data, which can be
held in constants and variables. There are operators to enable it in most
computer programming languages, including PHP. I will gladly discuss how you
might use this at an interview."
3. Keep answers short, and confident.
Imagine that they were a Mickey Mouse outsourcing outfit who really didn't
know what concatenation was about. (It's just an example...of course
everyone knows about concatenation...:-)) This could be a cynical attempt to
get information easily and for free. Think of their question in those terms
and it becomes immediately obvious that your response is: "Yes, I know about
this, but I'm not giving any details until you have shown good faith by
sitting at a table with me." (Personally, even then I'd be careful,
especially if it was specialist knowledge that could command a high
price...)
All we have is what's in our heads. Sell it too cheap and you only have
yourself to blame if life becomes difficult. Years of experience and
training have a value. The ability to solve problems has a commercial value.
Don't be "cannon fodder"; value what you have and sell it carefully.
Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."
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| Robert 2007-08-23, 9:55 pm |
| On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 08:31:54 -0500, "HeyBub" <heybubNOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:
>"The hiring manager described their typical process; Peter would have to
>answer a screening question to determine his skill level, and if his answer
>was satisfactory, they'd schedule a face-to-face interview. With a little
>trepidation, Peter said he was ready for the question. He was concerned that
>it could be about a complex topic that he wasn't very familiar with. A few
>hours later, an email arrived..."
>
>http://worsethanfailure.com/Article...s-TOO-Good.aspx
For some reason, Cobol interviewers think indexes are a test of 'advanced' knowledge. Here
are two questions I've been asked several times.
Q. How would you increment an index to the next entry?
Expected answer: SET index UP BY 1.
Answer they got:
1. SET index-before TO index
PERFORM VARYING index FROM index BY 1 UNTIL index > index-before
END-PERFORM
2, SET index-before TO index
SEARCH entry
WHEN index > index-before CONTINUE
END-SEARCH
3, SET index TO index + 1
4. SET index UP BY 1
Q. What's the difference between an index and a subscript?
Expected answer: one must use the SET verb on an index.
Answer they got:
There iis no longer a difference, except cumbersome syntax. Back in the '70s indexes were
faster, because the machine's multiply instruction was slower than its add instruction.
That difference disappeared twenty years ago. There is no longer any reason to use an
index unless required for SEARCH ALL.
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| Alistair 2007-08-24, 7:55 am |
| On 23 Aug, 14:31, "HeyBub" <heybubNOS...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "The hiring manager described their typical process; Peter would have to
> answer a screening question to determine his skill level, and if his answer
> was satisfactory, they'd schedule a face-to-face interview. With a little
> trepidation, Peter said he was ready for the question. He was concerned that
> it could be about a complex topic that he wasn't very familiar with. A few
> hours later, an email arrived..."
>
> http://worsethanfailure.com/Article...s-TOO-Good.aspx
Was it in this newsgroup where someone recounted the tail of being
asked how they would approach a specific problem? They did not get the
job but their solution was implemented.
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| Michael Mattias 2007-08-24, 7:55 am |
| >>> "The hiring manager described their typical process; Peter would have to[color=darkred]
Now that everyone has read it.... here's a different take: so what if the
answer given WAS plagiarized?
Doesn't that simply demonstrate that when confronted by a new challenge, the
candidate has the intiative and is is resourceful enough to utilize
published reference materiel to obtain a solution and get the job done?
--
Michael C. Mattias
Tal Systems Inc.
Racine WI
mmattias@talsystems.com
| |
|
| In article <j0Azi.47486$Um6.47438@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net>,
Michael Mattias <mmattias@talsystems.com> wrote:
>
>Now that everyone has read it.... here's a different take: so what if the
>answer given WAS plagiarized?
That might have been borne out during the in-person interview... which did
not occur because the prospective client acted upon the assumption that
'this candidate is being dishonest'.
>
>Doesn't that simply demonstrate that when confronted by a new challenge, the
>candidate has the intiative and is is resourceful enough to utilize
>published reference materiel to obtain a solution and get the job done?
I have had similar situations with telephone-interviews. I get asked a
question like 'What is the difference between an index and a subscript?',
I stare at the ceiling and start talking... and I have been asked 'Are you
reading this out of the manual?'
What you seem to be asking here, Mr Mattias, is similar to 'don't know
things, know where and how to find things' and 'surround yourself with
people who are smarter than you'... both of which have been preached about
in many fine tomes and both of which my experiences tell me... stay in
said tomes and not in the minds of folks doing interviews.
DD
| |
| Michael Mattias 2007-08-24, 6:55 pm |
| <docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:famkaj$qgu$1@reader1.panix.com...
>
> What you seem to be asking here, Mr Mattias, is similar to 'don't know
> things, know where and how to find things' and 'surround yourself with
> people who are smarter than you'... both of which have been preached about
> in many fine tomes and both of which my experiences tell me... stay in
> said tomes and not in the minds of folks doing interviews.
The difference between you and me, sir, is that you see the cloud around
every silver lining.
MCM
| |
|
| In article <oXAzi.47491$Um6.8886@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net>,
Michael Mattias <mmattias@talsystems.com> wrote:
><docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:famkaj$qgu$1@reader1.panix.com...
>
>The difference between you and me, sir, is that you see the cloud around
>every silver lining.
A difference between me and many people, Mr Mattias, is that I try not to
confuse 'I have seen' with 'I would like to see'.
DD
| |
|
| Pete Dashwood wrote:
> "LX-i" <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:3rudnZy62tYlBlDbnZ2dnUVZ_rDinZ2d@co
mcast.com...
>
> :-)
>
> Sql injection vulnerablility was the first thing I noticed too :-)
>
> (It's interesting how, once you have to write code to address something,
> from then on you become immediately aware of it...)
Heh - great minds think alike! :)
> This raises some important points for job sers.
I'll definitely have to keep this list in mind once I have to start
pounding the pavement. (Hopefully that's still 10 years down the road,
but you never know what happens...)
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \/ _ o ~ Live from Albuquerque, NM! ~
~ _ /\ | ~ ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ Business E-mail ~ daniel @ "Business Website" below ~
~ Business Website ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~
~ Tech Blog ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com/linux/blog ~
~ Personal E-mail ~ "Personal Blog" as e-mail address ~
~ Personal Blog ~ http://daniel.summershome.org ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ !O M--
V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e h---- r+++ z++++
"Who is more irrational? A man who believes in a God he doesn't see,
or a man who's offended by a God he doesn't believe in?" - Brad Stine
| |
| Howard Brazee 2007-08-24, 6:55 pm |
| I still remember a 9th grade Earth Science question I got wrong. The
teacher asked about dehydration. So I described symptoms of
dehydration. It never crossed my mind that a high school science
class test would want to know just what the definition of this common
word.
| |
| Michael Mattias 2007-08-24, 6:55 pm |
| "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net> wrote in message
news:hvptc3hcrk0126dpbfcp49gg7e40ju49i8@
4ax.com...
>I still remember a 9th grade Earth Science question I got wrong. The
> teacher asked about dehydration. So I described symptoms of
> dehydration. It never crossed my mind that a high school science
> class test would want to know just what the definition of this common
> word.
A. "Gawd I need a beer!"
MCM
| |
| klshafer@att.net 2007-08-24, 6:55 pm |
| On Aug 24, 8:52 am, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
> In article <j0Azi.47486$Um6.47...@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net>,
>
> Michael Mattias <mmatt...@talsystems.com> wrote:
>
> That might have been borne out during the in-person interview... which did
> not occur because the prospective client acted upon the assumption that
> 'this candidate is being dishonest'.
>
>
> I have had similar situations with telephone-interviews. I get > What you seem to be asking here, Mr Mattias, is similar to 'don't know
> things, know where and how to find things' and 'surround yourself with
> people who are smarter than you'... both of which have been preached about
> in many fine tomes and both of which my experiences tell me... stay in
> said tomes and not in the minds of folks doing interviews.
>
Gotta agree with _both_ Doc and Mr. Mattias ('Mr.', since we have not
been yet introduced...) - Is that possible? I hope that's OK. :-)
In agreement with Mr. Mattias, there are certainly plenty of
circumstances I've been in where 'plagiarism' is considered a 'good
thing.' Namely, the interviewer wants someone who will re-use as much
code as possible and not do the 'not invented here' approach.
As in, the following exchange:
Interviewer: We have a lot of screens here that provide online
financial summaries. Suppose I ask you to write a new one. What would
be your approach?
Candidate: I'd ask you which one that already exists you think is
closest what you need in the new one, and modify it to the job.
Interviewer: You wouldn't write a new one from scratch?
Candidate: Why would I, unless you told me to?
Interviewer: You're hired.
On the other hand, I've seen the circumstances that I think Doc is
alluding to, and for those, I can accept at entirely _face value_, the
name of the link "Good Answer Perhaps Too Good", and "... if his
answer was satisfactory, they'd schedule a face-to-face interview."
>From the description of what transpired, I can certainly see the
possibility that the interviewer thought the candidate was _smarter
than he was_, and that would not be _satisfactory_ at all, not for
someone with a bit of an inferiority complex. Only surprising thing
here is the retort of the accusation of plagiarism - certainly
overkill, and much more than the usual "Uh, we decided to go another
direction - nice to meet you" blow-off.
But another possibility certainly comes to mind: that the whole think
was a "setup". The "fix" was in, so to speak, the associate manager's
brother-in-law was already lined up, and they just needed to go
through some formalities of some interview paperwork to make it look
good. I'm sure plenty of us have had to figure out those kind of
situations before.
There are any number of reasons someone might get hired or not, of
course, but here's one of the best stories that come to mind...
My friend and associate, a man I'll call Chuck, once interviewed with
a potential client. After some pleasant exchanges, and a tad of
technical talk, the interviewer, who would be Chuck's manager if Chuck
was hired, relaxed in his chair, and said:
"Chuck, you impress me as someone who is smart, but lazy."
Chuck didn't know what to think of that, didn't know what the guy was
looking for... did he want some reassurances that he was a hard
worker?
So Chuck did a very, very smart thing... he kept his mouth shut, and
smiled.
The interviewer continued...
"See Chuck, there are four kinds of people in this world. There are
those who are dumb and lazy, and you don't want those cause they can't
get anything done. Then those who are dumb and ambitious, and you
don't want those, cause they will really foul things up. And there are
those who are smart and ambitious, and I don't want somebody like
that, cause he might try to take _my_ job! Then there are those who
are smart and lazy, who will just do enough, but do it efficiently,
and no more. You impress me as one of those!'
Chuck got the job. :-)
Ken
| |
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| In article <1187967663.976561.292810@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
klshafer@att.net <klshafer@att.net> wrote:
>On Aug 24, 8:52 am, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
>you seem to be asking here, Mr Mattias, is similar to 'don't know
[snip]
[color=darkred]
>As in, the following exchange:
>
>Interviewer: We have a lot of screens here that provide online
>financial summaries. Suppose I ask you to write a new one. What would
>be your approach?
>
>Candidate: I'd ask you which one that already exists you think is
>closest what you need in the new one, and modify it to the job.
>
>Interviewer: You wouldn't write a new one from scratch?
>
>Candidate: Why would I, unless you told me to?
>
>Interviewer: You're hired.
I have had experiences similar to that... except that I did my best not to
answer a question with a question, of course. For example:
Interviewer: 'What are the four steps involved in batch DB2 code into
something you can run?'
Me: 'Four steps? I usually use just one, I pull up my standard JCL, do a
global replace on (membername) and SUB that sucker...
(pause for laughter)...
.... but I guess what you want me to say is 'precompile, compile, link and
bind', right?'
DD
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| HeyBub 2007-08-24, 6:55 pm |
| Alistair wrote:
> On 23 Aug, 14:31, "HeyBub" <heybubNOS...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Was it in this newsgroup where someone recounted the tail of being
> asked how they would approach a specific problem? They did not get the
> job but their solution was implemented.
There's a Dilbert cartoon where the PHB hands a fellow a piece of paper and
asks: "How would you handle this?" Then another, then another.
Last panel, the PHB tells his secretary: "Send in some more job applicants.
I've still got stuff in my "IN" basket."
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2007-08-24, 6:55 pm |
|
"Michael Mattias" <mmattias@talsystems.com> wrote in message
news:j0Azi.47486$Um6.47438@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net...
>
> Now that everyone has read it.... here's a different take: so what if the
> answer given WAS plagiarized?
>
> Doesn't that simply demonstrate that when confronted by a new challenge,
> the candidate has the intiative and is is resourceful enough to utilize
> published reference materiel to obtain a solution and get the job done?
>
Good point, Michael.
It is also quite legitimate in this industry to look up information, and the
candidate has demonstrated he is capable of doing that.
The real problem I see here is that a company (or Manager) would expect
people to answer a "screening question" by email, and then eliminate the
ones who got it right :-)
There is absolutely no substitute in my book for the personal interview.
Yes, it takes time and it can be wearing to sepend several days interviewing
people all day, but, if you care about getting the best, you simply have to
do it.
Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."
| |
| Michael Mattias 2007-08-24, 6:55 pm |
| "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:5j97skF3qqu1bU1@mid.individual.net...
> Yes, it takes time and it can be wearing to sepend several days
> interviewing people all day, but, if you care about getting the best, you
> simply have to....
.... contact my office.
MCM
| |
| Alistair 2007-08-25, 7:55 am |
| On 24 Aug, 23:12, "HeyBub" <heybubNOS...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Alistair wrote:
>
>
>
> There's a Dilbert cartoon where the PHB hands a fellow a piece of paper and
> asks: "How would you handle this?" Then another, then another.
>
> Last panel, the PHB tells his secretary: "Send in some more job applicants.
> I've still got stuff in my "IN" basket."
Brilliant!
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