Cobol - newbie question on cobol syntax

Author

newbie question on cobol syntax

Mayer

2007-04-23, 3:55 am

Hello:

I noticed two styles of cobol syntax:

main.
display "hello"
display "goodbye"
stop run

2007-04-23, 7:55 am

In article <1177272149.938765.13260@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
Mayer <mayer.goldberg@gmail.com> wrote:
>Hello:

[snip]

>Can someone please explain to me the function of the period in cobol,
>what is the basis for the difference in syntax, and what is
>recommended.

To work backwards... what is recommended is starting with the style of
code on your job-site (or learning what your instructor instructs you to
do), there is no 'the basis' but, quite possibly, a few different bases
and the function of the period is what, for the most part, what The Manual
says it to be.

(Even the term used to define this particular bit of punctuation varies
from one group to the next; some adherents to a primitive language which
serves as a basis for a bit of what Americans speak will insist on using
two words ('full stop') to describe it, rather than the one ('period')
which can be found in citations as early as the seventeenth century...
their reasons for doing this are still unknown but they are, at times,
*most* insistent.)

DD

James J. Gavan

2007-04-23, 7:55 am

Mayer wrote:
> Hello:
>
> I noticed two styles of cobol syntax:
>
> main.
> display "hello"
> display "goodbye"
> stop run
> .
>
> vs.
>
> main.
> display "hello".
> display "goodbye".
> stop run.
>
> Some books use the first, others the second. I have no idea what's the
> difference between them, but I note the following:
>
> - MF Cobol/DOS allows both
>
> - RM Cobol/DOS allows only the second, i.e., requires a period at the
> end of each statement.
>
> Can someone please explain to me the function of the period in cobol,
> what is the basis for the difference in syntax, and what is
> recommended.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mayer
>
Well first off - if you can, avoid using both compilers - you will get
yourself in one hell of a mess :-)

Are you sure about RM/COBOL being adamant about periods/full-stops, or
is it perhaps what you interpreted ? The following extract from a very
old RM compiler, Version 2 and no longer supported :-

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

B040-ENTER-ID.

ACCEPT WS-SCREEN-PROGRAM, POSITION 40, LINE 15,
PROMPT "-", ECHO, CONVERT, REVERSE, NO BEEP
ACCEPT WS-SCREEN-PAGE, POSITION 43, LINE 15,
PROMPT "-", ECHO, CONVERT, REVERSE, NO BEEP

IF WS-SCREEN-PROGRAM = ZEROES
MOVE "Are you sure - Program Zero ? y/n"
TO WS-INSTRUCTION-TEXT
MOVE SPACES TO WS-INSTRUCTION-EXIT
PERFORM Z040-INSTRUCTION-LINE
PERFORM Z025-ANSWER

IF WS-ANSWER = "N"
GO TO B040-ENTER-ID.

IF WS-SCREEN-PAGE = ZEROES
MOVE "Screen ID can't be zeroes"
TO WS-ERROR-MESSAGE-TEXT
PERFORM Z050-ERROR-MESSAGE
GO TO B040-ENTER-ID.

IF WS-SELECTION NOT = 2
MOVE ZEROES TO WS-LINE-ID

ELSE PERFORM B050-LINE-ID.

B050-LINE-ID.

ACCEPT WS-LINE-ID, POSITION 45, LINE 15,
PROMPT "-", ECHO, CONVERT, REVERSE, NO BEEP

IF WS-LINE-ID = ZEROES
MOVE "Line ID can't be zeroes"
TO WS-ERROR-MESSAGE-TEXT
PERFORM Z050-ERROR-MESSAGE
GO TO B050-LINE-ID.

C010-RECORD.

IF WS-SELECTION = 1
MOVE 3 TO WS-NUMBER-OF-QUESTION
PERFORM C020-DISPLAY-SCREEN
PERFORM C030-READ-RECORD

ELSE MOVE 4 TO WS-NUMBER-OF-QUESTION
PERFORM D020-DISPLAY-SCREEN
PERFORM C030-READ-RECORD.

IF WS-RECORD-EXISTS = "Y"

IF WS-SELECTION = 1
PERFORM C040-DISPLAY-VALUES

ELSE PERFORM D040-DISPLAY-VALUES.

IF WS-RECORD-EXISTS = "N"
MOVE
"No record - do you want to input ? y/n"
TO WS-INSTRUCTION-TEXT
MOVE SPACES TO WS-INSTRUCTION-EXIT
PERFORM Z040-INSTRUCTION-LINE
PERFORM Z025-ANSWER

IF WS-ANSWER = "Y"
PERFORM C060-ENTER-NEW-DATA

ELSE GO TO C010-EXIT.

PERFORM C070-LINE-NUMBER THROUGH C070-EXIT.

000000 C010-EXIT.
EXIT.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you look at the above code your compiler should certainly hiccup if
you leave out the very last period/full-stop before the next paragraph
name. If you have perform PARAGRAPH-NAME-A and the para-name isn't
preceded by a period, you should get an error like "Invalid Paragraph Name".

I tried searching the latest version of Net Express for "period", "full
stop" - no luck. Familiarize yourself with END SCOPE Terminators - which
weren't around when I wrote the above code.

In written English we finalize our thoughts by putting a period at the
end of a sentence. We group a series of like sentences into a paragraph
and terminate that with a CR/LF(Carriage-Return, Line Feed), have a
blank line and start a new paragraph on the next line.

Translate that to COBOL - using Scope Terminators, mainly you only need
a period preceding the next 'heading' Section, Paragraph-Name etc.

Let's take the very last sequence above and show how it could be edited
to operate with scope terminators "-

IF (#1) WS-RECORD-EXISTS = "N"
MOVE
"No record - do you want to input ? y/n"
TO WS-INSTRUCTION-TEXT
MOVE SPACES TO WS-INSTRUCTION-EXIT
PERFORM Z040-INSTRUCTION-LINE
PERFORM Z025-ANSWER

IF (#2) WS-ANSWER = "Y"
PERFORM C060-ENTER-NEW-DATA

ELSE (#2) GO TO C010-EXIT
----> don't need the period here replaced by following end-if

----> END-IF (#2)

----> END-IF (#1)

PERFORM C070-LINE-NUMBER THROUGH C070-EXIT.

----> If I didn't have the line 'PERFORM C070-LINE...." nor the
two lines for C010-EXIT, then a period would be required after the final
'END-IF', denoting the end of the current paragraph.

000000 C010-EXIT.
EXIT.

Note the two 'IF' s are paired off with an END-IF and we don't need any
intervening periods. (Scope Terminators are the equivalent of something
being finished with a period).

Not a very expansive explanation but if you are saying that RM/COBOL is
rejecting the following, then it might be useful to post the full source
that you are getting errors for, plus the error messasges in the
following :-

> main.
> display "hello"
> display "goodbye"
> stop run
> .

Just a thought, it's so long ago. Doesn't 'old' RM require something like :-

MAIN-SECTION.
FIRST-PARAGRAPH. ?????????

display "hello"
display "goodbye"
stop run
..

And 'Yes' you DEFINITELY need that period after STOP RUN :-)

Jimmy

James J. Gavan

2007-04-23, 7:55 am

James J. Gavan wrote:
> Mayer wrote:
> <snip>

> Not a very expansive explanation but if you are saying that RM/COBOL is
> rejecting the following, then it might be useful to post the full source
> that you are getting errors for, plus the error messasges in the
> following :-
>
>
>
> Just a thought, it's so long ago. Doesn't 'old' RM require something
> like :-
>
> MAIN-SECTION.
> FIRST-PARAGRAPH. ?????????
>
> display "hello"
> display "goodbye"
> stop run
> .
>
Mayer,

Pretty dumb of me - I should have checked the beginning of the program I
extracted from :-

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
000340 COPY "\USR\CS\TEXT2\CSWSCOMM.CBL".

000670 PROCEDURE DIVISION
000680
000340 COPY "\USR\CS\TEXT2\CSERROR.CBL".
000710
000720 A010-MAIN-LINE SECTION.
000730 A010-BEGIN.
000740
IF WS-LABEL-CHECK NOT = "QQ"
STOP RUN

ELSE MOVE WS-PROGRAM-TITLE TO WS-SCREEN-TITLE
PERFORM X010-OPEN-FILES.

A010-NEXT.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I think your problem with RM/COBOL will be resolved if you have :-

PROCEDURE DIVISION.
A010-MAIN-LINE SECTION.
A010-BEGIN (or MAIN-PARAGRAPH if you like).

Micro Focus compilers allow you to take 'shortcuts'.

Jimmy

James J. Gavan

2007-04-23, 7:55 am

docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
> In article <1177272149.938765.13260@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
> Mayer <mayer.goldberg@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> [snip]
>
>
>
>
> To work backwards... what is recommended is starting with the style of
> code on your job-site (or learning what your instructor instructs you to
> do), there is no 'the basis' but, quite possibly, a few different bases
> and the function of the period is what, for the most part, what The Manual
> says it to be.
>
> (Even the term used to define this particular bit of punctuation varies
> from one group to the next; some adherents to a primitive language which
> serves as a basis for a bit of what Americans speak will insist on using
> two words ('full stop') to describe it, rather than the one ('period')
> which can be found in citations as early as the seventeenth century...
> their reasons for doing this are still unknown but they are, at times,
> *most* insistent.)
>
> DD
>
Very insistent, us folks from the 'Mother country'. Not sure of origins,
but in days of telegrams :-

'WILL BE LEAVING BY FLIGHT AC 124. STOP. PLANE ARRIVES CALGARY 13.05
LOCAL TIME. STOP'.

Same sort of thing using teleprinters in military to send signals :-

'FROM C-IN-C MEAF TO AOC-IN-C IRAQ. STOP. FOR UK EYES ONLY. STOP. YOUR
A12345 12 SEPTEMBER 1954. STOP. GOD HELP US WHEN THE YANKS TAKE OVER. STOP.'

For your edification, something else which amuses North Americans, "If
you like I'll knock you up". NOT to be translated as, "If you like I'll
leave a bun in your oven".

Saw the latter's origins on TV. Back in yon days of the Industrial
Revolution and the 'dark Satanic Mills', when the poor sods,
disenfranchised from their farms worked in the grimy mills starting work
at 05:00 or 06:00 so the mill owner could save on lighting. It takes
me all my effort to be awake by 08:00, so they had a similar problem
with their times too.

For about a penny per w

/month each household would pay somebody to
knock them up. This man went down the rows of dingy terraced houses with
a long stick and tapped(knocked) at the window immediately above the
front door.

Another interesting one from TV. Do you know the origins of 'freelance' ?

BTW - Afterthought. You refer to hiring agencies as those 'pimps' Don't
disagree with your conclusion/description. However, if a pimp is trying
to gain you useful paid employment does that make you an whore (or in
line with Imus an 'ho') ?

Jimmy

William M. Klein

2007-04-23, 7:55 am

I am surprised by your statement that RM had a problem with the first example -
but it may depend upon the context of the entire COBOL program. (What message
does it give you?)

As far as the Procedure Division goes (different rules for other divisions).
There are requirements that:

A) every procedure-name (header) - paragraph or section name MUST be terminated
by a period (full-stop).

B) There must be a period (full-stop) at the end of each set of procedure
division statements that constitute a procedure, i.e. each paragraph or section
(terminated by another paragraph or section name - or by the end of source
code - or End Program header).

There is a SEMANTIC difference for periods. They end SENTENCES. This is where
a NEXT SENTENCE phrase (or statement - if your compiler has such a statement as
an extension - as Micro Focus does) will "go to". For example.

If Field-1 = A
Next Sentence
Else
Display "Here"

2007-04-23, 6:55 pm

In article <JrSWh.116487$aG1.66743@pd7urf3no>,
James J. Gavan <jgavandeletethis@shaw.ca> wrote:
>docdwarf@panix.com wrote:

[snip]
[color=darkred]
>Very insistent, us folks from the 'Mother country'.

Yes, quite insistent... and the reasons, as noted above, are still
unknown. Time passes, terminologies change - not much talk of women
having 'the vapors', is there? - and yet this particular bit still rolls
on.

>Not sure of origins,
>but in days of telegrams :-
>
>'WILL BE LEAVING BY FLIGHT AC 124. STOP. PLANE ARRIVES CALGARY 13.05
>LOCAL TIME. STOP'.

See above and the OED, Mr Gavan... the use Americans make is first cited
in 1609, not too many telegrams back then.

(note to Mr Goldberg - this was pointed out to this newsgroup a half-dozen
years ago, see
<http://groups.google.com/group/comp...5b?dmode=source>

>
>Same sort of thing using teleprinters in military to send signals :-
>
>'FROM C-IN-C MEAF TO AOC-IN-C IRAQ. STOP. FOR UK EYES ONLY. STOP. YOUR
>A12345 12 SEPTEMBER 1954. STOP. GOD HELP US WHEN THE YANKS TAKE OVER. STOP.'

See above, Mr Gavan... teleprinters postdate telegrams (shouldn't that be
'telegrammes'?) and both postdate Davies' used in the early seventeenth
century by a goodly time.

[snip]

>Another interesting one from TV. Do you know the origins of 'freelance' ?

Off the top of my head I'd say it might be related to samurai traditions.

>
>BTW - Afterthought. You refer to hiring agencies as those 'pimps' Don't
>disagree with your conclusion/description. However, if a pimp is trying
>to gain you useful paid employment does that make you an whore (or in
>line with Imus an 'ho') ?

No more than one is trying to change one's hat-size by visiting a
'headshrinker' or expecting an amputation from one's annual visit to the
'sawbones', Mr Gavan.

DD

Howard Brazee

2007-04-23, 6:55 pm

On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 23:52:11 GMT, "William M. Klein"
<wmklein@nospam.netcom.com> wrote:

> There is a SEMANTIC difference for periods. They end SENTENCES. This is where
>a NEXT SENTENCE phrase (or statement - if your compiler has such a statement as
>an extension - as Micro Focus does) will "go to". For example.
>
> If Field-1 = A
> Next Sentence
> Else
> Display "Here"
> .
> Display "There"
> .
>
>Gets very different results from
>
> If Field-1 = A
> Next Sentence
> Else
> Display "Here"
> Display "There"
> .

Some compilers will allow

If Field-1 = A
Next Sentence
Else
Display "Here"
End-IF

Display "There".

In which case "Next Sentence" still goes to the next sentence. I
see no advantage in ever using NEXT SENTENCE now that CONTINUE is
available.

Some pre-compilers create implicit IF statements without creating
END-IF statements. In these special cases, a style of including
full-stop periods can be beneficial. But in other cases, the
Righteous arguments for one style over another are more of a religious
nature.

And it is easy to see what Righteous people inflict on the world.

Alistair

2007-04-23, 6:55 pm

On 23 Apr, 10:30, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
> In article <JrSWh.116487$aG1.66743@pd7urf3no>,
> James J. Gavan <jgavandeletet...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
> Off the top of my head I'd say it might be related to samurai traditions.
>

I'll be brief as I'm suffering another migraine. From Wikipedia:

"A freelancer or freelance worker is a person who pursues a profession
without a long-term commitment to any one employer. The term was first
coined by Sir Walter Scott (1771-1832) in his well-known historical
romance Ivanhoe to describe a "medieval mercenary warrior." "

also:

"However, many Asian countries appear to follow Hormung by holding low
regard for freelancers, often associating the practice with personal
failure (an inability to find work with a major employer) and even
criminality (see: Ninja)."

2007-04-23, 6:55 pm

In article <1177340839.047930.275980@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 23 Apr, 10:30, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
>
>I'll be brief as I'm suffering another migraine. From Wikipedia:
>
>"A freelancer or freelance worker is a person who pursues a profession
>without a long-term commitment to any one employer.

Compare and contrast with the 'masterless samurai', or ronin... and please
pardon my obscurity.

L Silberstein, A'83

2007-04-23, 6:55 pm

In article <1hhp23lrbejcmn16429hp0pthh40pmn5fn@4ax.com>,
Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> wrote:

[snip]

>I see no advantage in ever using NEXT SENTENCE now that CONTINUE is
>available.

I'm not sure how you intend 'using' to be interpreted here, Mr Brazee...
but I've run across a bit of the 'installed base' that requires NEXT
SENTENCE to be compiled and executed in the same manner as it was when the
code was first written in FCOBOL.

DD

William M. Klein

2007-04-23, 6:55 pm

"Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net> wrote in message
news:1hhp23lrbejcmn16429hp0pthh40pmn5fn@
4ax.com...
> On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 23:52:11 GMT, "William M. Klein"
> <wmklein@nospam.netcom.com> wrote:
<snip>

> Some compilers will allow
>
> If Field-1 = A
> Next Sentence
> Else
> Display "Here"
> End-IF
>
> Display "There".
>
> In which case "Next Sentence" still goes to the next sentence. I
> see no advantage in ever using NEXT SENTENCE now that CONTINUE is
> available.
>

Howard,
I know that you know this, but just in case some "newbie" (see subject line
doesn't) this is the reason that understanding Next Sentence vs Continue is
importaat (if your compiler supports this extension).

If Field-1 = A
Next Sentence
Else
Display "Here"
End-IF
Display "There"

William M. Klein

2007-04-23, 9:55 pm

Actually,
If you have code that compiled with "FCOBOL" - or even with OS/VS COBOL and
you NOW are using the newer (IBM) compilers, then changing every NEXT SENTENCE
to CONTINUE should never change the logic flow.

The only time that there is a "difference in logic flow" is when you MIX old
COBOL (with NEXT SENTENCE) *with* scope terminators (END-IF or whatever).
Therefore, if you are worried about "base of code" BUT are using newer compiler,
then feel "safe" in changing NEXT SENTENCE to CONTINUE.

Of course as "your - not my - sainted mother" is reported to have said <G> such
changes are rarely requested by those who sign your paychecks.

--
Bill Klein
wmklein <at> ix.netcom.com
<docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:f0ijf7$9ig$1@reader2.panix.com...
> In article <1hhp23lrbejcmn16429hp0pthh40pmn5fn@4ax.com>,
> Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
> I'm not sure how you intend 'using' to be interpreted here, Mr Brazee...
> but I've run across a bit of the 'installed base' that requires NEXT
> SENTENCE to be compiled and executed in the same manner as it was when the
> code was first written in FCOBOL.
>
> DD
>

Howard Brazee

2007-04-23, 9:55 pm

On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:38:17 GMT, "William M. Klein"
<wmklein@nospam.netcom.com> wrote:

>The only time that there is a "difference in logic flow" is when you MIX old
>COBOL (with NEXT SENTENCE) *with* scope terminators (END-IF or whatever).
>Therefore, if you are worried about "base of code" BUT are using newer compiler,
>then feel "safe" in changing NEXT SENTENCE to CONTINUE.

Since my compiler allows such mixing - a bit of thinking is necessary
before such conversion.

Another place where CONTINUE is useful is replacing the exit command.
This facilitates the "D" in column 6 for debugging:

2000-READ-EXIT.
EXIT.

vs.
2000-READ-EXIT.
D DISPLAY "reached end of read paragraph".
CONTINUE.

My new code doesn't contain exit paragraphs, but when I maintain, I
try not to rewrite.

Howard Brazee

2007-04-23, 9:55 pm

On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:34:58 GMT, "William M. Klein"
<wmklein@nospam.netcom.com> wrote:

>As most people (but not all) agre, "mixing" next sentence with scope delimiters
>is NOT a good thing to do.

I've heard of, but haven't come across code that used "next sentence"
to work as "exit paragraph".

paragraph-a.
if my-account = "zzzz"
next sentence
end-if
perform a
perform b
perform c

HeyBub

2007-04-23, 9:55 pm

In article <Ip4Xh.81928$OL2.22938@fe04.news.easynews.com>,
William M. Klein <wmklein@nospam.netcom.com> wrote:
>Actually,
> If you have code that compiled with "FCOBOL" - or even with OS/VS COBOL and
>you NOW are using the newer (IBM) compilers, then changing every NEXT SENTENCE
>to CONTINUE should never change the logic flow.
>
>The only time that there is a "difference in logic flow" is when you MIX old
>COBOL (with NEXT SENTENCE) *with* scope terminators (END-IF or whatever).

Bingo, Mr Klein... code that has been around that long has, in my
experience, been through a few hands of vary levels of capability; styles
are mixed and stability, at times, a wee bit... precarious.

>Therefore, if you are worried about "base of code" BUT are using newer
>compiler,
>then feel "safe" in changing NEXT SENTENCE to CONTINUE.

I've felt safe about things which the Testing Crew grew a bit... upset
about. Increasing the number of code changes, or so I have seen,
increases the size of the Test Plan and the amount of time folks spend
dealing with it.

DD

2007-04-23, 9:55 pm

In article <132pnkegtj8q49b@news.supernews.com>,
HeyBub <heybubNOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:
>Mayer wrote:

[snip]

>
>Same as in English - it marks the end of a thought.

This may not, in certain circumstances, be the case; if such a truth held
universally then this would be two sentences.

[snip]

>If you don't want the instruction to stop, don't use a period.

Ow... with all due respect, 'instruction', when it comes to computers and
their languages, might have a slightly different definition that what can
be seen from your statement.

DD

William M. Klein

2007-04-24, 3:55 am

The Standard doesn't allow a NEXT SENTENCE with an END-IF (at the same level, so
this is "non-Standard". However, a number of vendors allow this (as a
documented extension).

--
Bill Klein
wmklein <at> ix.netcom.com
"LX-i" <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:I76dnQUjPPpo9LDbnZ2dnUVZ_sTinZ2d@co
mcast.com...
> Richard wrote:
>
> I was thinking that it was forbidden per the standard. I guess I haven't been
> out of the scene for that long... :)
>
>
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~ / \ / ~ Live from Albuquerque, NM! ~
> ~ / \/ o ~ ~
> ~ / /\ - | ~ daniel@thebelowdomain ~
> ~ _____ / \ | ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> ~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
> ~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e ~
> ~ h---- r+++ z++++ ~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> "Who is more irrational? A man who believes in a God he doesn't see, or a man
> who's offended by a God he doesn't believe in?" - Brad Stine

Howard Brazee

2007-04-25, 3:55 am

On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:20:50 -0600, LX-i <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote:

>
>I was thinking that it was forbidden per the standard. I guess I
>haven't been out of the scene for that long... :)

Which is why in my first message of the thread mentioning this
possibility, I said:

>Some compilers will allow

Alistair

2007-04-25, 3:55 am

On 24 Apr, 02:04, "James J. Gavan" <jgavandeletet...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Alistair wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> The idea was to get the dwarf to do his own homework.

:-( sorry. I should have read between the lines (but people keep
telling me off for that).

>
>
> But not quite what I saw as an explanation on TV. Can't recall the
> programme name, but English and the regular commentator had a somewhat
> cockney accent. The series covered battles but primarily the techniques
> of weaponry. (Not to be

with that excellent series 'Battle' or
> 'Battlefield' - Sir Peter Snow (????), former ITV anchor and his son.
> Using computer graphics for terrain layouts, they concentrated on the
> game plan for specific battles).

I recall a small military bloke (Richard ?) giving lectures on major
battles (Agincourt, Waterloo, Trafalgar - all the ones that the French
prefer to forget) and some poor ones done by Peter Snow (you can catch
them on UK TV History on satellite) and his son. I thought PSnow's
were cheap tricks to catch the attention of casual browsers.

2007-04-25, 3:55 am

In article <1177437689.189719.73750@o40g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 24 Apr, 02:04, "James J. Gavan" <jgavandeletet...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>:-( sorry. I should have read between the lines (but people keep
>telling me off for that).

Eh? Now I'm

. A freelancer is one whose services are not bound
to a lord, a ronin is a samurai is one whose services are not bound a
lord... this was the relation I saw when I made my comment and in case I
haven't already then permit me to offer my apologies for my obscurity but
I'm uncertain what homework was seen as necessary.

DD

LX-i

2007-04-25, 3:55 am

Howard Brazee wrote:[color=darkred]
> On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:20:50 -0600, LX-i <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>
> Which is why in my first message of the thread mentioning this
> possibility, I said:
>

I remember - but I also remember thinking, then, that telling a newbie
about a dangerous feature allowed by some compilers, might not have been
the best direction to take the conversation. (Kind of like telling
someone to overrun their table index if they needed more memory - sure,
it'll work, but it's not the right way to do it.)

But, it wasn't my conversation, so I stayed out... :) Today, I was
coding away at my new Java job, and found myself creating a setter method...

public void setDescription(final String psDescription) {
move psDescription to msDescription
}

I got to the "c" in "msDescription" and realized what I was doing! Oops...

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \ / ~ Live from Albuquerque, NM! ~
~ / \/ o ~ ~
~ / /\ - | ~ daniel@thebelowdomain ~
~ _____ / \ | ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e ~
~ h---- r+++ z++++ ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Who is more irrational? A man who believes in a God he doesn't see, or
a man who's offended by a God he doesn't believe in?" - Brad Stine

Pete Dashwood

2007-04-25, 3:55 am

"LX-i" <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:_N6dnZOqIvKHN7PbnZ2dnUVZ_vWtnZ2d@co
mcast.com...
> Howard Brazee wrote:
>
> I remember - but I also remember thinking, then, that telling a newbie
> about a dangerous feature allowed by some compilers, might not have been
> the best direction to take the conversation. (Kind of like telling
> someone to overrun their table index if they needed more memory - sure,
> it'll work, but it's not the right way to do it.)
>
> But, it wasn't my conversation, so I stayed out... :) Today, I was
> coding away at my new Java job, and found myself creating a setter
> method...
>
> public void setDescription(final String psDescription) {
> move psDescription to msDescription
> }
>
> I got to the "c" in "msDescription" and realized what I was doing!
> Oops...
>

Wait 'til you start writing (in COBOL...)

wsvalue = ws-number.ToString(); :-)

It took me about two w

s of intensive coding in C# before I stopped making
the kind of error you describe...

These days it doesn't happen... :-)

Pete.

LX-i

2007-04-25, 9:55 pm

Pete Dashwood wrote:
> "LX-i" <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:_N6dnZOqIvKHN7PbnZ2dnUVZ_vWtnZ2d@co
mcast.com...
>
> Wait 'til you start writing (in COBOL...)
>
> wsvalue = ws-number.ToString(); :-)
>
> It took me about two w

s of intensive coding in C# before I stopped making
> the kind of error you describe...

So far, it hadn't happened. Of course, I'm just starting to get into
the meat of it. Between Java and C#, though, I'd have to say I prefer
C#'s syntax, especially when it comes to properties.

Our system uses Apache, Struts, and Velocity, along with Java and
Oracle. I like the way it's laid out, but there are a lot of different
pieces in different places. I'm beginning to understand MVC, but it
seems that C# is a little more straightforward in that as well.

> These days it doesn't happen... :-)

So there's hope for me yet -

! (Of course, this will probably be my
last "hands in the code" assignment, especially if I make E-7. That'll
put me into management at that point.)

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \ / ~ Live from Albuquerque, NM! ~
~ / \/ o ~ ~
~ / /\ - | ~ daniel@thebelowdomain ~
~ _____ / \ | ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e ~
~ h---- r+++ z++++ ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Who is more irrational? A man who believes in a God he doesn't see, or
a man who's offended by a God he doesn't believe in?" - Brad Stine

Alistair

2007-04-26, 6:55 pm

On 24 Apr, 19:08, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
> In article <1177437689.189719.73...@o40g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
>
>
> Alistair <alist...@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Eh? Now I'm

. A freelancer is one whose services are not bound
> to a lord, a ronin is a samurai is one whose services are not bound a
> lord... this was the relation I saw when I made my comment and in case I
> haven't already then permit me to offer my apologies for my obscurity but
> I'm uncertain what homework was seen as necessary.
>
> DD- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Now I understand the reference to Samurai (or Ronin). Now explain the
L Silberstein reference please as trawling through Alta Vista gave me
another headache and nothing useful withing the first 30 references.

2007-04-26, 6:55 pm

In article <1177601738.038399.20870@b40g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 24 Apr, 19:08, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
>
>Now I understand the reference to Samurai (or Ronin). Now explain the
>L Silberstein reference please as trawling through Alta Vista gave me
>another headache and nothing useful withing the first 30 references.

Gah... it's what happens when you let someone else use your account 'just
for a moment, to check email' and they leave behind references to
something you'd been discussing about relativity by email.

DD

Pete Dashwood

2007-04-27, 6:55 pm

"LX-i" <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:xpKdnV3cTJn0nq3bnZ2dnUVZ_vKunZ2d@co
mcast.com...
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
> So far, it hadn't happened. Of course, I'm just starting to get into the
> meat of it. Between Java and C#, though, I'd have to say I prefer C#'s
> syntax, especially when it comes to properties.

Yes, me too. I hardly use Java these days.

But then, I was never deeply immersed in it. I managed people who were, and
they could achieve very impressive results with it very quickly.

I am currently grappling with remote web services for my new product web
site launch, which I really wanted to have up by the end of this month
(unlikely...). It will be a w

or so yet. Yesterday, I was grizzling
because the standard web service interface that people see if they link to
the web service, does not permit testing of the service when it is accessed
remotely. (If it is connected to a localhost, it does, and I find this very
useful.) I thought I'd have to knock up a web page in C# just so I could do
remote testing of the web service. Although it isn't really a big deal, I
have so many other things to do currently (the site itself, the
establishment and installation of COBOL for the COM engine, onto the web
server, finishing the development of the downloadable client that will run
the web service, and, most importantly, continung my education in C# and
"Webarama" :-)) Anyway, the man who runs the host I'm using is a very
experienced .NET/C# guy and he sent me a C# solution in minutes, that does
exactly what I need and was about 10 lines of code. Every day I learn
something more...:-)

>
> Our system uses Apache, Struts, and Velocity, along with Java and Oracle.
> I like the way it's laid out, but there are a lot of different pieces in
> different places. I'm beginning to understand MVC, but it seems that C#
> is a little more straightforward in that as well.
>

I like the "simplicity" of C#. I think straightforward is a good word...

>
> So there's hope for me yet -

! (Of course, this will probably be my
> last "hands in the code" assignment, especially if I make E-7. That'll
> put me into management at that point.)

Shhhh!!! Don't tell Doc.... :-)

Pete.

LX-i

2007-04-27, 9:55 pm

Pete Dashwood wrote:
> "LX-i" <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote in message
>
> Yes, me too. I hardly use Java these days.

I'm actually feeling a bit better about it today - I'm actually
understanding how its put together. This project is also my first
experience with CVS - three of us have been working on pretty much the
same files for the past two days. We just just have to make sure we
update before we commit, so we don't introduce conflicts.

> I am currently grappling with remote web services for my new product web
[snip]
> Anyway, the man who runs the host I'm using is a very
> experienced .NET/C# guy and he sent me a C# solution in minutes, that does
> exactly what I need and was about 10 lines of code. Every day I learn
> something more...:-)

What did it do?

>
> I like the "simplicity" of C#. I think straightforward is a good word...

Well, it fits nicely. Model = database or objects, View = ASP.net page,
Controller = code-behind file. In our environment, Model = database or
objects, View = Velocity template, Controller = Struts action. Of
course, for each object you've got to have a service, then for each
template you have to define the fields in the struts config file, the
the labels are in an ApplicationResources.properties file... !!!

I guess that's all the stuff that happens behind the scenes when you say
"AutoEventWireup=true"... :)

>
> Shhhh!!! Don't tell Doc.... :-)

You know he wakes up when someone uses his name... ;)

The other day, we were talking about something new that the customer
wanted. They didn't think we could do it in a month, so I said, "Well,
is there a central, essential piece that we could build, along with an
infrastructure that would support the future requirements?"

One of the developers looked at me and said "Man - you sound like a
project manager!" (As it turns out, it's not nearly as complex as we
though, so we can give them the essentials plus an assortment of bells
and whistles in this first iteration - sweet!)

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \ / ~ Live from Albuquerque, NM! ~
~ / \/ o ~ ~
~ / /\ - | ~ daniel@thebelowdomain ~
~ _____ / \ | ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e ~
~ h---- r+++ z++++ ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Who is more irrational? A man who believes in a God he doesn't see, or
a man who's offended by a God he doesn't believe in?" - Brad Stine

2007-04-28, 7:55 am

In article <8-qdnQ6YAf0SPa_bnZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
LX-i <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote:
>Pete Dashwood wrote:

[snip]
[color=darkred]
>
>You know he wakes up when someone uses his name... ;)

zzzzZZZZzzzzzz... eh? huh? whuh? sorry, I was just... considering some
weighty matters.

(and if you think horrid things happen when you mention *my* name you
should meet my brood-mate... it's a bit more complicated but the results
are more spectacular, you just have to darken the room's lights, stand in
front of a mirror and say her name three times...)

>
>The other day, we were talking about something new that the customer
>wanted. They didn't think we could do it in a month, so I said, "Well,
>is there a central, essential piece that we could build, along with an
>infrastructure that would support the future requirements?"
>
>One of the developers looked at me and said "Man - you sound like a
>project manager!"

Coming up with a different technical solution is not, in my experience,
what most project managers do... some, but not most. If you were allowed
to then which would you rather do... spend time slinging code or spend
time allocating, co-ordinating and motivating personnel and resources?

DD

LX-i

2007-04-28, 6:55 pm

docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
> In article <8-qdnQ6YAf0SPa_bnZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
> LX-i <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
> zzzzZZZZzzzzzz... eh? huh? whuh? sorry, I was just... considering some
> weighty matters.
>
> (and if you think horrid things happen when you mention *my* name you
> should meet my brood-mate... it's a bit more complicated but the results
> are more spectacular, you just have to darken the room's lights, stand in
> front of a mirror and say her name three times...)

Heh - I didn't say horrid things happened - just that you woke up. :)
Sounds like you have some fun summoning your brood-mate though!

>
> Coming up with a different technical solution is not, in my experience,
> what most project managers do... some, but not most. If you were allowed
> to then which would you rather do... spend time slinging code or spend
> time allocating, co-ordinating and motivating personnel and resources?

Slinging code, of course. :)

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \ / ~ Live from Albuquerque, NM! ~
~ / \/ o ~ ~
~ / /\ - | ~ daniel@thebelowdomain ~
~ _____ / \ | ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e ~
~ h---- r+++ z++++ ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Who is more irrational? A man who believes in a God he doesn't see, or
a man who's offended by a God he doesn't believe in?" - Brad Stine

Pete Dashwood

2007-04-28, 9:55 pm

"LX-i" <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:8-qdnQ6YAf0SPa_bnZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
> I'm actually feeling a bit better about it today - I'm actually
> understanding how its put together. This project is also my first
> experience with CVS - three of us have been working on pretty much the
> same files for the past two days. We just just have to make sure we
> update before we commit, so we don't introduce conflicts.
>
> [snip]
>
> What did it do?
>

It allows me to test any webservice that is exposed anywhere, even though I
am not running on that host. (The Web Service template used by VS 2005
allows this, but only if you are running on the host where the service
resides. It is really useful and, during development on IIS I came to rely
on it quite a bit. Once I posted services to a host, I could no longer do
this and it was a an irritation.) The main Web Service I have written has a
COBOL COM component at the heart of it, wrapped in C#, and it is reassuring
to be able to check that the component is running, from a Browser, before
trying to access the service under program control. Whern I saw his C# code
I immediately thought "Why didn't I think of that ?!" My experience has been
that whenever this happens, I learn something... :-)

Here's the code...

using System;
using System.Data;
using System.Configuration;
using System.Web;
using System.Web.Security;
using System.Web.UI;
using System.Web.UI.WebControls;
using System.Web.UI.WebControls.WebParts;
using System.Web.UI.HtmlControls;

public partial class _Default : System.Web.UI.Page
{
protected void Page_Load(object sender, EventArgs e)
{

}
protected void Button1_Click(object sender, EventArgs e)
{
AVSProxy.AVSWebService proxy = new AVSProxy.AVSWebService();
Label2.Text = proxy.ValidateNZaddress(TextBox1.Text);
}
}

(This is running the "ValidateNZaddress" method of an exposed web service
called "AVSWebService"; it could be easily modified to run any method of any
exposed service...)

....and here's the ASPX page it runs from...

<%@ Page Language="C#" AutoEventWireup="true" CodeFile="Default.aspx.cs"
Inherits="_Default" %>

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">

<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" >
<head runat="server">
<title>Untitled Page</title>
</head>
<body>
<form id="form1" runat="server">
<div>
<asp:Label ID="Label1" runat="server" Text="Enter Address to
test:"></asp:Label><br />
<asp:TextBox ID="TextBox1" runat="server" Height="148px"
TextMode="MultiLine"
Width="357px"></asp:TextBox>
<br />
<br />
<asp:Button ID="Button1" runat="server" Text="Test"
OnClick="Button1_Click" />
<br />
<br />
<asp:Label ID="Label2" runat="server"
Text="Label"></asp:Label></div>
</form>
</body>
</html>

Obviously, there are a few support objects (like a proxy to my web service)
generated by VS 2005, but the above is enough to give you the idea.

If anybody reading this has the same problem, I'll gladly forward the
package by private mail, (but you must include references to your own web
services (not mine... ;-)) when you build it ).

Yes, I remember some of my Java people getting excited about Struts. I'm not
sure what this is... I'm unfamiliar with Velocity, too.

They also loved AJAX which I have as next on my list :-) (now it is
available for C#)... I just haven't time to do the education I need to,
until this web site is published, but after that I expect to relax and
immerse myself in some of this "new-fangled high tech mumbo-jumbo"... :-)

Funny... I'm so busy doing stuff, I don't have time to learn it... :-)

I'm sure many here have been in that situation...

[color=darkred]
>
> Well, it fits nicely. Model = database or objects, View = ASP.net page,
> Controller = code-behind file. In our environment, Model = database or
> objects, View = Velocity template, Controller = Struts action. Of course,
> for each object you've got to have a service, then for each template you
> have to define the fields in the struts config file, the the labels are in
> an ApplicationResources.properties file... !!!
>
> I guess that's all the stuff that happens behind the scenes when you say
> "AutoEventWireup=true"... :)

Yep, see code above... :-)

>
>
> You know he wakes up when someone uses his name... ;)
>
> The other day, we were talking about something new that the customer
> wanted. They didn't think we could do it in a month, so I said, "Well, is
> there a central, essential piece that we could build, along with an
> infrastructure that would support the future requirements?"
>
> One of the developers looked at me and said "Man - you sound like a
> project manager!"

Ah, so this developer is used to Project Managers with a positive, can-do,
attitude...excellent!

(As it turns out, it's not nearly as complex as we
> though, so we can give them the essentials plus an assortment of bells and
> whistles in this first iteration - sweet!)

The first step to becoming legend... deliver more than they expect.

Pete.

Pete Dashwood

2007-04-28, 9:55 pm

<docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:f0v8jn$ink$1@reader2.panix.com...
> In article <8-qdnQ6YAf0SPa_bnZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
> LX-i <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
> zzzzZZZZzzzzzz... eh? huh? whuh? sorry, I was just... considering some
> weighty matters.
>
> (and if you think horrid things happen when you mention *my* name you
> should meet my brood-mate... it's a bit more complicated but the results
> are more spectacular, you just have to darken the room's lights, stand in
> front of a mirror and say her name three times...)
>
>
> Coming up with a different technical solution is not, in my experience,
> what most project managers do... some, but not most.

Thank you for qualifying this, Doc.

>If you were allowed
> to then which would you rather do... spend time slinging code or spend
> time allocating, co-ordinating and motivating personnel and resources?
>

Sometimes the two choices are not mutually exclusive, and both activities
have their pros and cons...

I write code because I am driven and obsessed to...:-) I do management
because it is a living and, sometimes, there are rewards in it that have
nothing to do with money. (I enjoy watching myself and others grow...:-))

Pete.

LX-i

2007-04-29, 9:55 pm

Pete Dashwood wrote:
> "LX-i" <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:8-qdnQ6YAf0SPa_bnZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> It allows me to test any webservice that is exposed anywhere, even though I
> am not running on that host.

[snipped implementation]

Cool. I'm guessing AVSProxy is a connection to your proxy server?

>
> Yes, I remember some of my Java people getting excited about Struts. I'm not
> sure what this is... I'm unfamiliar with Velocity, too.

(Recognize that all these descriptions are from me as a two-month
programmer with no formal training...)

Struts allows you to specify "actions" - these are Java classes with an
"execute" method. Struts invokes the execute method of the defined
action, passing the form and it's data as a bean. It's pretty

- it
will even recognize objects (if you defined a checkbox array, for
example, based on an object) and recreate the ID and value fields. (It
doesn't do the full constructor - it basically calls the no argument
constructor, and then puts the values in. However, you can take that
list and easily recreate the objects, presuming they came from a
persistent data store.)

Velocity strikes me as SSH on speed. :) We have lists defined, and
then in the code, there's something like

<tr>
<td>
$ExampleList
</td>
</tr>

"$ExampleList" is replaced with a select box of "whatever"s. You can
also define macros, and I'm sure there's more to it than I've learned so
far. We also have "business-functions" (SQL statements, defined in
several XML files) that are tied to security profiles as well. I'm not
sure which technology provides that infrastructure.

> They also loved AJAX which I have as next on my list :-) (now it is
> available for C#)...

That's kind of a misnomer. AJAX is available for everything. :) The
AJAX toolkit makes it easy to integrate predefined AJAX functionality
into .NET applications, but you don't have to use that to do what you
need to do. The AJAX toolkit actually implements it using the .NET
standard "control" syntax (for example, the "accordion" control renders
those

sets of <div>s where when you click a heading, all the others
shrink down and the one you clicked expands).

I haven't actually integrated them into any active code, but I looked at
them quite a bit a few w

s ago. :)

> I just haven't time to do the education I need to,
> until this web site is published, but after that I expect to relax and
> immerse myself in some of this "new-fangled high tech mumbo-jumbo"... :-)
>
> Funny... I'm so busy doing stuff, I don't have time to learn it... :-)
>
> I'm sure many here have been in that situation...

Tell me about it! I've started back with college classes; I'm trying to
learn the stuff at work; my two oldest kids are playing baseball/T-ball;
I'd like to spend some leisure time with my family. Where is the .NET
playtime? :P

> The first step to becoming legend... deliver more than they expect.

Heh - that would be a hoot. Especially as inadequate as I'm feeling now
at times...

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \ / ~ Live from Albuquerque, NM! ~
~ / \/ o ~ ~
~ / /\ - | ~ daniel@thebelowdomain ~
~ _____ / \ | ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e ~
~ h---- r+++ z++++ ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Who is more irrational? A man who believes in a God he doesn't see, or
a man who's offended by a God he doesn't believe in?" - Brad Stine

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