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| Marek Simck 2007-03-03, 6:55 pm |
| Hello,
I want to store a list, which is something like a highscore list. If I take
an index-file, do I have to make the "right order" (most points on the top,
less points at the end) while writing to the file, or do I have to put order
when I READ the file-entries?
How can I do this the best?
Thanks a lot!!
Best regards,
Marek
| |
| Michael Mattias 2007-03-03, 6:55 pm |
| "Marek Simck" <MSimck83@libero.it> wrote in message
news:45e98249$0$20298$9b4e6d93@newsspool
3.arcor-online.net...
> I want to store a list, which is something like a highscore list. If I
> take an index-file, do I have to make the "right order" (most points on
> the top, less points at the end) while writing to the file, or do I have
> to put order when I READ the file-entries?
> How can I do this the best?
There is no absolute "best;" there is only "best IN MY ENVIRONMENT AND
APPLICATION CONTEXT."
You essentially solved your design problem when you realized you either have
to store the records in the order you will want them or SORT them at run
time.
This is really a "designer's call" based on other considerations.
MCM
| |
|
| Marek Simck wrote:
> I want to store a list, which is something like a highscore list. If I take
> an index-file, do I have to make the "right order" (most points on the top,
> less points at the end) while writing to the file, or do I have to put order
> when I READ the file-entries?
> How can I do this the best?
The index will keep your entries in order. If you open the file to
read, or START it after writing, the entries will be in order.
One thing to consider, though, in your index, is what happens when 2
people have the same score - you'll need to include some sort of
tiebreaker so that your complete key is unique.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \ / ~ Live from Albuquerque, NM! ~
~ / \/ o ~ ~
~ / /\ - | ~ daniel@thebelowdomain ~
~ _____ / \ | ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e ~
~ h---- r+++ z++++ ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Who is more irrational? A man who believes in a God he doesn't see, or
a man who's offended by a God he doesn't believe in?" - Brad Stine
| |
| Marek Simck 2007-03-03, 6:55 pm |
|
"Michael Mattias" <mmattias@talsystems.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:x_fGh.2442$tv6.251@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net...
....
> There is no absolute "best;" there is only "best IN MY ENVIRONMENT AND
> APPLICATION CONTEXT."
>
> You essentially solved your design problem when you realized you either
> have to store the records in the order you will want them or SORT them at
> run time.
>
> This is really a "designer's call" based on other considerations.
>
> MCM
>
Ok, got it. Last question. If I have an open file, and the pointer is at the
end of the file, how can I set it to the beginning of the file again,
without closing and reopening the file?
thanks!!!!
| |
|
| In article <45e98249$0$20298$9b4e6d93@newsspool3.arcor-online.net>,
Marek Simck <MSimck83@libero.it> wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I want to store a list, which is something like a highscore list.
Please do your own homework.
DD
| |
| Michael Mattias 2007-03-03, 6:55 pm |
| > Ok, got it. Last question. If I have an open file, and the pointer is at
> the end of the file, how can I set it to the beginning of the file again,
> without closing and reopening the file?
Depends how the file was opened. If it was opened for some form of random
access (e.g., ACCESS IS RANDOM RELATIVE KEY IS ...) you just change your key
to "1" and you're there. ( if indexed, START would be worth looking at).
If the file was opened for sequential access (ORGANIZATION IS SEQUENTIAL
ACCESS IS SEQUENTIAL), well, COBOL is serious about 'sequential' and you'll
have to close and reopen the file to start over from the beginning.
But in the application described, that should not be necessary.
I am having a vision now....I see... yes.... I'm sure of it... the
'RELEASE' and 'RETURN' verbs are in your future!
--
Michael C. Mattias
Tal Systems Inc.
Racine WI
mmattias@talsystems.com
| |
| HeyBub 2007-03-03, 6:55 pm |
| Michael Mattias wrote:
> I am having a vision now....I see... yes.... I'm sure of it... the
> 'RELEASE' and 'RETURN' verbs are in your future!
In some systems, it's faster to write data to a scratch ISAM file randomly
and read it back sequentially than it is to sort the data in the first
place.
| |
| A. Stern 2007-03-03, 9:55 pm |
|
<docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:esc46u$llv$1@reader2.panix.com...
> In article <45e98249$0$20298$9b4e6d93@newsspool3.arcor-online.net>,
> Marek Simck <MSimck83@libero.it> wrote:
>
> Please do your own homework.
>
> DD
In other words, you don't know!!!
Nobody else seems to have an issue with offering to help.
| |
|
| A. Stern wrote:
> <docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:esc46u$llv$1@reader2.panix.com...
>
> In other words, you don't know!!!
You must not know Doc very well... He could probably post 5 different
solutions to the original problem in less than a minute.
> Nobody else seems to have an issue with offering to help.
We've offered pointers, but we haven't given him a solution. His
question sounds very much like a programming assignment - thus the
advocation for him to do his own homework.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \ / ~ Live from Albuquerque, NM! ~
~ / \/ o ~ ~
~ / /\ - | ~ daniel@thebelowdomain ~
~ _____ / \ | ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e ~
~ h---- r+++ z++++ ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Who is more irrational? A man who believes in a God he doesn't see, or
a man who's offended by a God he doesn't believe in?" - Brad Stine
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2007-03-03, 9:55 pm |
|
"A. Stern" <Asternf334@msn.com> wrote in message
news:CBoGh.127$fe.115@newsfe04.lga...
>
> <docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:esc46u$llv$1@reader2.panix.com...
>
> In other words, you don't know!!!
>
> Nobody else seems to have an issue with offering to help.
You haven't been around this group for long, have you? :-)
The Doc has no aversion to helping people, and has done so consistently for
years here. He simply has certain rules about it.
It is presumptive of you to assume that if someone offers no help, they
don't have the necessary knowledge to do so...
I happen to know that, despite a sometimes crusty exterior, the Doc is good
and the Doc is wise... his ability is not in question :-)
Restrain your impetuous indignation and watch what happens here for a while.
"Digging for facts is much better exercise than jumping to conclusions" :-)
Pete.
| |
| William M. Klein 2007-03-03, 9:55 pm |
| Others have given you bunches of hints (even Doc's suggestion to do your own
homework is PROBABLY a good idea), However, I am surprised that no one has
jumped on your use of the phrase
"index-file"
I think all of us who "know COBOL" can easily guess that you really are a
Student (whether in a class, studying on your own, or otherwise) as your
question is pretty basic. Do you really have an "indexed file"? (Have you
gotten to the "Organization" and "Access" clauses of the Select/Assign statement
yet?
If so, there really are some "better" ways of doing most of what you have asked
about (get things "in order"; reposition your "pointer", etc). If your
"materials" let you look up these clauses, I hope you will see how they can help
you. If they are covered "later in your course", then you may want to give us a
better idea of exactly what your assignment is - and show us how YOU have tried
to solve it (so far).
--
Bill Klein
wmklein <at> ix.netcom.com
"Marek Simck" <MSimck83@libero.it> wrote in message
news:45e98249$0$20298$9b4e6d93@newsspool
3.arcor-online.net...
> Hello,
>
> I want to store a list, which is something like a highscore list. If I take an
> index-file, do I have to make the "right order" (most points on the top, less
> points at the end) while writing to the file, or do I have to put order when I
> READ the file-entries?
> How can I do this the best?
>
> Thanks a lot!!
>
> Best regards,
>
> Marek
>
| |
|
| In article <wamGh.5293$P47.1900@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net>,
Michael Mattias <mmattias@talsystems.com> wrote:
[snip]
>Oh well, RELEASE
>and RETURN were the first things which popped into my mind for this task.
You seem to be more generous than I on this one, Mr Mattias, for both the
student and the teacher; the former would receive a 'please do your own
homweork' while the latter would get 'please learn to write a decent
assignment... what comes next, a 14-pole Towers of Hanoi?'
DD
| |
|
| In article <CBoGh.127$fe.115@newsfe04.lga>,
A. Stern <Asternf334@msn.com> wrote:
>
><docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:esc46u$llv$1@reader2.panix.com...
>
>In other words, you don't know!!!
>
>Nobody else seems to have an issue with offering to help.
>
>
| |
|
| In article < HsCdnSHC67wHgnfYnZ2dnUVZ_hqdnZ2d@comcast
.com>,
LX-i <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote:
>A. Stern wrote:
>
>You must not know Doc very well... He could probably post 5 different
>solutions to the original problem in less than a minute.
Haw, done fooled another'n! Three came to mind... but one of them
involved COLLATING-SEQUENCE, just to keep it interestintg.
>
>
>We've offered pointers, but we haven't given him a solution. His
>question sounds very much like a programming assignment - thus the
>advocation for him to do his own homework.
I can't remember the fellow's name, a Geezer from the Oldene Dayse, lo,
when a Geezer could Geeze such as *ten* Geezers cannot, today! - anyhow,
he was one of the first guys to hook up a electronic flash's
triggering-circuit to a esnsitive microphone. He'd set up an experiment,
turn off the light, open the lens-setting up to B (remember B settings?)
and flip his main switch... and a single drop of milk would fall into a
ring, the mike would pike up the 'blip', amplify that to the eAct for the
flash circuit and... and then you could see a crisp, clear mystery, one
frozen not by shuter-speed but by 'pure' light. (He'd like to do stuff
like darts into balloons and low-speed progectiles into fruits, too.
Anyhow, he became the Geezer Emeritis of such things and would sometimes
be seen talking with an animated youngetser... and if the youngerst had
done some reading he's know he was duplicating what the fogey did before
the kid's parents were born. When asked why he spend tie with this ol'
Geeze said something to the effect of 'It gets boring to ask to do the
samehomework sets again and again... but every once in a while you get an
fire, you get a spark, you get an enthusiasm that brings back the joy that
was felt back in the beginning, and a changce to visit the old texts - the
old friends - with someone who might become a new one.'
DD
| |
|
| In article <54um3fF22josfU1@mid.individual.net>,
Pete Dashwood <dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>
>You haven't been around this group for long, have you? :-)
Ahhhhh, Mr Dashwood, perhaps he is well-travelled and wise; he may have
learned that answers here, like answers anywhere else, are all the same.
>
>The Doc has no aversion to helping people, and has done so consistently for
>years here. He simply has certain rules about it.
'Life... is like a sewer; what you get out of it tends to depend on what
you put into it.'
[snip]
>I happen to know that, despite a sometimes crusty exterior, the Doc is good
>and the Doc is wise... his ability is not in question :-)
The question is... 'ability to do... what?' How's this for a
for-example.: I've been at the same client-site now for... oh, 3 1/2
years; the project got implemented into Prod a year-and-change back and
there's always a tweak here, a diddle there... oh, and, of course, nobody
does any rotation on the Mainframe Side because that's all going to go
away Real Soon Now.
People are so busy having meetings about how the Mainframe side's leaving
that they don't have any time to do any work to actually make it *go*...
and so every little bit I have to say 'Hey, you know... I got (n) w s of
contract time left, maybe someone should know about this?'
(It aint as bad as it was last year, they were doing hour-accounting every
other w and at month-end they'd tell you how many hours you had for the
following month; my last two renewals were for six months apiece.)
So... a Corner Office Idioit stops me in a corrider, we've worked together
before and he knows I can sometimes pull a rabbit out of my hat - and he
sayd 'We have that new Federal Requirement for the report that has to go
to the Department of Labor at the end of the month, that's The Law...
looks like we're gonna have to look into renewing you for a bit.'
'A-yep', I said, 'and the sooner the bit the better. Today's 27 Feb and
my contract runs out 2 March.'
'MARCH 2nd? Ain't that kind of... soon?'
'*My* calender says it is, sure.'
'Has anyone said anything to you about it? Have you asked around
regarding the status?'
'Normally I would have... but I'm trying a different approach on this.
Four people, essentlially, get benefit from my being here: me, from the
paycheck I get fro Pimp A, Pimp A submits my hours to Pimpco-II and gets
his cut, Pimpco-II submits my hours to your agency and gets their cut and
your agency looks at Pimpco-II's bill, my work and says 'All right, seems
worth it'... and the cycle starts again. Been going like that better'n
three years now.
'This time... I decided to say *nothing*. What's the worst that's going
to happen? Come the end of March I'll submit my timesheet and someone
will say 'Oh, we never got authorisation for your project, the funds
aren't there... you have, in essence, worked a month for us for free.'
Corner-Office Man waves his hands dismissively and says 'Oh, that'll
*never* happen'... and I smile and rejoinder, 'Right... you ever see
anything stranger go down here?'
He grins, sheepishly... and I continue 'Right... so I get told, straight
to my face, that I just worked a month for free. Be interesting to see
how I could work that little fact to my advantage when it comes to
renogitiate my contract, eh?'
Now I doubt, severly, that I'd be able to make a 'little administrative
oversight' like this into Huge Wad o' Cash... but I do believe that it
would give me *great* face (in the sense of 'dignity, grace, prestige) to
let it be known that I was willing to waste a month's free work on the
basis of 'they're a bit screwed up, sure... but they've come through
before for three years' and change, running.')
DD
| |
| Michael Mattias 2007-03-04, 6:55 pm |
| > In article <wamGh.5293$P47.1900@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net>,
> Michael Mattias <mmattias@talsystems.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
> You seem to be more generous than I on this one..
That's because I am.
It's also because I very much believe one can learn by looking it up in the
manual.
It's also because I very much believe most manuals are little beyond an
alphabetized list of verbs, functions and keywords, lacking what it really
takes: "putting a series of verbs, functions and keywords together in the
correct order."
So a little hint for 'where to start' IN THE MANUAL seems perfectly in
order.
You did note I didn't write so much as one line of code?
MCM
| |
| Robert Jones 2007-03-04, 6:55 pm |
| On Mar 4, 2:59 pm, "Michael Mattias" <mmatt...@talsystems.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> That's because I am.
>
> It's also because I very much believe one can learn by looking it up in the
> manual.
>
> It's also because I very much believe most manuals are little beyond an
> alphabetized list of verbs, functions and keywords, lacking what it really
> takes: "putting a series of verbs, functions and keywords together in the
> correct order."
>
> So a little hint for 'where to start' IN THE MANUAL seems perfectly in
> order.
>
> You did note I didn't write so much as one line of code?
>
> MCM
I would add that the programmer's guides generally explain how to put
together what is in the language reference manuals. However, I would
agree that there is probably more that could be said on the matter and
that they perhaps of necessity can't provide all answers, which is why
for example, IBM produces redbooks and other suppliers probably
provide similar equivalents and reputable employers normally mentor
their trainees with experienced programmers to show them the ropes.
Robert
| |
| Michael Mattias 2007-03-04, 6:55 pm |
| "Robert Jones" <rjones0@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1173042786.720954.324290@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
> for example,...other suppliers [of language products] probably
> provide similar equivalents and reputable employers normally mentor
> their trainees with experienced programmers to show them the ropes.
.... and the tooth fairy put that quarter under your pillow.
MCM
| |
| Howard Brazee 2007-03-05, 6:55 pm |
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On Sat, 3 Mar 2007 13:19:34 -0600, "HeyBub" <heybubNOSPAM@gmail.com>
wrote:
>In some systems, it's faster to write data to a scratch ISAM file randomly
>and read it back sequentially than it is to sort the data in the first
>place.
I knew of a shop that did this - rather than pay for a sort utility.
But when competing sort utilities started making inroads on IBM
mainframes, IBM improved its sort as well. I'm wondering if there is
any current system where writing out ISAM files is faster than
sorting.
| |
| Michael Mattias 2007-03-05, 6:55 pm |
| "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net> wrote in message
news:56cou2druckrkv72bhmhdv608olnvosago@
4ax.com...
> On Sat, 3 Mar 2007 13:19:34 -0600, "HeyBub" <heybubNOSPAM@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> I knew of a shop that did this - rather than pay for a sort utility.
>
> But when competing sort utilities started making inroads on IBM
> mainframes, IBM improved its sort as well. I'm wondering if there is
> any current system where writing out ISAM files is faster than
> sorting.
Let's not forget.... you are not limited to the use of the SORT and WRITE
verbs to sort your data.... you can use tables and code-based comparisons,
too....
Darned, I think this might be turning into another one of those
'application-dependent' things.....
MCM
| |
| HeyBub 2007-03-05, 9:55 pm |
| Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Mar 2007 13:19:34 -0600, "HeyBub" <heybubNOSPAM@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> I knew of a shop that did this - rather than pay for a sort utility.
>
> But when competing sort utilities started making inroads on IBM
> mainframes, IBM improved its sort as well. I'm wondering if there is
> any current system where writing out ISAM files is faster than
> sorting.
The folks at Realia told me - and I haven't confirmed it by testing - that
their ISAM Write/read was faster than any sort that could run in the same
environment.
Standby one...
Well, that's certainly not the case with Fujitsu ISAM and a third-party,
lickety-split sort. Factoring out the overhead, etc., to create a sorted
file of 30,000 random records, each of 200 bytes, takes 4.2 seconds using
ISAM vs. 0.73 seconds using SORT.
| |
| Howard Brazee 2007-03-06, 6:55 pm |
| On Mon, 5 Mar 2007 20:02:13 -0600, "HeyBub" <heybubNOSPAM@gmail.com>
wrote:
>Well, that's certainly not the case with Fujitsu ISAM and a third-party,
>lickety-split sort. Factoring out the overhead, etc., to create a sorted
>file of 30,000 random records, each of 200 bytes, takes 4.2 seconds using
>ISAM vs. 0.73 seconds using SORT.
That makes sense - SORT is optimized to do one subset of what ISAM
needs to do. SORT doesn't need to worry about future random data
retrieval, insertions, and changes. SORT can grab temporary disk
space.
And while ISAM had more incentive to be optimized (IBM even replaced
it with KSDS) - SORT has had enough time with some incentive to be
optimized as well by now. If you can't design a SORT that's more
efficient than ISAM, you aren't competent at your job.
| |
|
| In article <hh1ru2ppvju4g47c4mc1sv9dchpn3l3hj5@4ax.com>,
Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> wrote:
[snip]
>If you can't design a SORT that's more
>efficient than ISAM, you aren't competent at your job.
Compare and contrast with:
Instructor, to Computer Programming 101 Class, on the first day:
'All right, everyone out there who prefers to drive a manual-transmission
car, raise your hand... very good. *You* should not be designing systems
where user interactions are needed.'
DD
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2007-03-06, 9:55 pm |
|
<docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:eskt5m$j4g$1@reader2.panix.com...
> In article <hh1ru2ppvju4g47c4mc1sv9dchpn3l3hj5@4ax.com>,
> Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
> Compare and contrast with:
>
> Instructor, to Computer Programming 101 Class, on the first day:
>
> 'All right, everyone out there who prefers to drive a manual-transmission
> car, raise your hand... very good. *You* should not be designing systems
> where user interactions are needed.'
>
> DD
>
There may be more truth in this than you realise, Doc.
I prefer manual transmissions and I have always found user interfacing to be
a "difficult" part of system design. The advent of visual components has
helped immensely, but there is still the task of deciding the logical
workflow and ensuring things are enabled and visible when they should be.
(It was all much easier when we just used ACCEPT and DISPLAY... :-))
With DotNET and VS 2005 it is the first time I have felt reasonably
comfortable with this aspect of programming. The tools help to align
components correctly and ensure the best use of screen real estate.
But, no matter how hard I try, there is always somebody who finds a flaw or
doesn't like the colour scheme, or is left handed, or hates mice, or loves
mice and hates keyboard shortcuts, or is just generally not satisfied with
the user interface... I don't remember ever getting this right first time
and never needing to modify it after deployment (except for the most trivial
of applications).
(However, I love my stick shift...:-))
Pete.
| |
| Michael Mattias 2007-03-07, 7:57 am |
| > Instructor, to Computer Programming 101 Class, on the first day:
>
> 'All right, everyone out there who prefers to drive a manual-transmission
> car, raise your hand... very good. *You* should not be designing systems
> where user interactions are needed.'
That's exactly backward, sir.
The best designers of user interfaces are Real Live Users, not Ivory Tower
Academics or Know-It-All Gs.
MCM
| |
| Howard Brazee 2007-03-07, 6:55 pm |
| On Tue, 6 Mar 2007 23:23:34 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf@panix.com () wrote:
>
>Compare and contrast with:
>
>Instructor, to Computer Programming 101 Class, on the first day:
>
>'All right, everyone out there who prefers to drive a manual-transmission
>car, raise your hand... very good. *You* should not be designing systems
>where user interactions are needed.'
The people whose job is to make ISAM and SORT work more efficiently
tend to use the interfaces that are already out there.
| |
|
| In article <SxyHh.3304$iw4.2975@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net>,
Michael Mattias <mmattias@talsystems.com> wrote:
>
>That's exactly backward, sir.
>
>The best designers of user interfaces are Real Live Users, not Ivory Tower
>Academics or Know-It-All Gs.
I believe, Mr Mattias, that the point the instructor was attempting to
make was that if you want users to like your systems then you have to, on
an instinctive level, *think* as your users do. In the United States of
America - for whatever the reason was - most cars sold at the time of this
tale's telling had automatic transmissions; selecting a manual
transmission indicated an attention to detail... 'other' than that of the
usual driver.
That the Instructor stated those who were 'other' should not be designing
user-interactive systems, it seems, agrees, in some wise, with your
assertion... a variation of 'it takes one to know one', as it were.
DD
| |
|
| In article <f6ktu2tnjiv4netoqs0nj2evjki7oa92nu@4ax.com>,
Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> wrote:
>On Tue, 6 Mar 2007 23:23:34 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf@panix.com () wrote:
>
>
>The people whose job is to make ISAM and SORT work more efficiently
>tend to use the interfaces that are already out there.
I don't have much survey data to go on, Mr Brazee, so I can neither agree
nor disagree... but I did not know that 'the people whose job is to make
ISAM and SORT work more efficiently' tend to use interfaces for insurance
claim entry or airline reservation systems or bank-balance queries... or
other 'systems where user interactions are needed', which, I believe, were
the intention behind the anecdote.
DD
| |
| Howard Brazee 2007-03-07, 6:55 pm |
| On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 16:47:43 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf@panix.com () wrote:
>I believe, Mr Mattias, that the point the instructor was attempting to
>make was that if you want users to like your systems then you have to, on
>an instinctive level, *think* as your users do. In the United States of
>America - for whatever the reason was - most cars sold at the time of this
>tale's telling had automatic transmissions; selecting a manual
>transmission indicated an attention to detail... 'other' than that of the
>usual driver.
With cars or software or anything else, it can be worthwhile to offer
alternatives. Don't exclude anyone. That could mean including
keyboard shortcuts as well as drop down menus. Some innovation can
get you new customers. As long as you don't exclude the old ones this
can be good.
| |
|
| In article <q8stu25r481pu1n824gea5h2muk4fkeuk9@4ax.com>,
Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 16:47:43 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf@panix.com () wrote:
>
>
>With cars or software or anything else, it can be worthwhile to offer
>alternatives. Don't exclude anyone.
Some decisions are binary, Mr Brazee... a given automobile
(user-interactive mobility system) has, usually, either a manual
transmission or an automatic one. Increasing choices available across a
product line increases production costs, as Henry Ford I pointed out
regarding color.
>That could mean including
>keyboard shortcuts as well as drop down menus. Some innovation can
>get you new customers. As long as you don't exclude the old ones this
>can be good.
Ow... a noble sentiment, certainly, but this can also lead to 'feature
bloat'. Moderation in all things... moderation included.
DD
| |
| HeyBub 2007-03-07, 6:55 pm |
| Howard Brazee wrote:
> With cars or software or anything else, it can be worthwhile to offer
> alternatives. Don't exclude anyone. That could mean including
> keyboard shortcuts as well as drop down menus. Some innovation can
> get you new customers. As long as you don't exclude the old ones this
> can be good.
Sometimes features creep and sometimes creeps add features.
There are even a few cases where creeps demand features. In the last case,
we send them to a competitor.
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2007-03-07, 6:55 pm |
|
"HeyBub" <heybubNOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:12utvdp4qdkgl59@news.supernews.com...
> Howard Brazee wrote:
>
> Sometimes features creep and sometimes creeps add features.
>
> There are even a few cases where creeps demand features. In the last case,
> we send them to a competitor.
>
ROFL!
Good stuff, Jerry :-)
Pete.
| |
| HeyBub 2007-03-08, 7:55 am |
| Pete Dashwood wrote:
> ROFL!
>
> Good stuff, Jerry :-)
Then you may like this, which I posted on another newsgroup. I thought it
was merely obvious, other thought it was hilarious:
--- begin quote
I have a theory:
Very smart people = entrepreneurs
Pretty smart people = businessmen
Average smart people = average workers
Less than smart people = politicians
Very less than smart people = government workers
Turnips = unemployed
--- end quote
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2007-03-08, 6:55 pm |
|
"HeyBub" <heybubNOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:12v03vmrmk8ng87@news.supernews.com...
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
> Then you may like this, which I posted on another newsgroup. I thought it
> was merely obvious, other thought it was hilarious:
>
> --- begin quote
> I have a theory:
> Very smart people = entrepreneurs
> Pretty smart people = businessmen
> Average smart people = average workers
> Less than smart people = politicians
> Very less than smart people = government workers
> Turnips = unemployed
> --- end quote
>
>
Hmmm...that would make me a turnip... :-)
As such, I am incapable of deciding whether I like it or not :-)
Pete.
| |
| Alistair 2007-03-08, 9:55 pm |
| On 4 Mar, 01:35, "Pete Dashwood" <dashw...@removethis.enternet.co.nz>
wrote:
> "A. Stern" <Asternf...@msn.com> wrote in message
>
> news:CBoGh.127$fe.115@newsfe04.lga...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> You haven't been around this group for long, have you? :-)
>
> The Doc has no aversion to helping people, and has done so consistently for
> years here.
He is, quite often right, as well.
> He simply has certain rules about it.
>
> It is presumptive of you to assume that if someone offers no help, they
> don't have the necessary knowledge to do so...
>
> I happen to know that, despite a sometimes crusty exterior, the Doc is good
> and the Doc is wise... his ability is not in question :-)
>
However, certain responses seem to be automated. Is there any
possibility that DD is an artificial intelligence (or a Turing
machine)?
> Restrain your impetuous indignation and watch what happens here for a while.
That'll put A. Stern off the group.
>
> "Digging for facts is much better exercise than jumping to conclusions" :-)
>
> Pete.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
| |
| Alistair 2007-03-08, 9:55 pm |
| On 4 Mar, 08:51, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
> In article <54um3fF22jos...@mid.individual.net>,
>
> Pete Dashwood <dashw...@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
>
> Ahhhhh, Mr Dashwood, perhaps he is well-travelled and wise; he may have
> learned that answers here, like answers anywhere else, are all the same.
>
>
>
>
> 'Life... is like a sewer; what you get out of it tends to depend on what
> you put into it.'
>
> [snip]
>
>
> The question is... 'ability to do... what?' How's this for a
> for-example.: I've been at the same client-site now for... oh, 3 1/2
> years; the project got implemented into Prod a year-and-change back and
> there's always a tweak here, a diddle there... oh, and, of course, nobody
> does any rotation on the Mainframe Side because that's all going to go
> away Real Soon Now.
>
> People are so busy having meetings about how the Mainframe side's leaving
> that they don't have any time to do any work to actually make it *go*...
> and so every little bit I have to say 'Hey, you know... I got (n) ws of
> contract time left, maybe someone should know about this?'
>
> (It aint as bad as it was last year, they were doing hour-accounting every
> other w and at month-end they'd tell you how many hours you had for the
> following month; my last two renewals were for six months apiece.)
>
> So... a Corner Office Idioit stops me in a corrider, we've worked together
> before and he knows I can sometimes pull a rabbit out of my hat - and he
> sayd 'We have that new Federal Requirement for the report that has to go
> to the Department of Labor at the end of the month, that's The Law...
> looks like we're gonna have to look into renewing you for a bit.'
>
> 'A-yep', I said, 'and the sooner the bit the better. Today's 27 Feb and
> my contract runs out 2 March.'
>
> 'MARCH 2nd? Ain't that kind of... soon?'
>
> '*My* calender says it is, sure.'
>
> 'Has anyone said anything to you about it? Have you asked around
> regarding the status?'
>
> 'Normally I would have... but I'm trying a different approach on this.
> Four people, essentlially, get benefit from my being here: me, from the
> paycheck I get fro Pimp A, Pimp A submits my hours to Pimpco-II and gets
> his cut, Pimpco-II submits my hours to your agency and gets their cut and
> your agency looks at Pimpco-II's bill, my work and says 'All right, seems
> worth it'... and the cycle starts again. Been going like that better'n
> three years now.
>
> 'This time... I decided to say *nothing*. What's the worst that's going
> to happen? Come the end of March I'll submit my timesheet and someone
> will say 'Oh, we never got authorisation for your project, the funds
> aren't there... you have, in essence, worked a month for us for free.'
>
> Corner-Office Man waves his hands dismissively and says 'Oh, that'll
> *never* happen'... and I smile and rejoinder, 'Right... you ever see
> anything stranger go down here?'
>
> He grins, sheepishly... and I continue 'Right... so I get told, straight
> to my face, that I just worked a month for free. Be interesting to see
> how I could work that little fact to my advantage when it comes to
> renogitiate my contract, eh?'
>
> Now I doubt, severly, that I'd be able to make a 'little administrative
> oversight' like this into Huge Wad o' Cash... but I do believe that it
> would give me *great* face (in the sense of 'dignity, grace, prestige) to
> let it be known that I was willing to waste a month's free work on the
> basis of 'they're a bit screwed up, sure... but they've come through
> before for three years' and change, running.')
>
> DD
When they refuse to pay your invoice, put in a winding up notice on
them and see how quickly they pay up (or promote you to CEO).
| |
|
| In article <1173386814.962885.20830@n33g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 4 Mar, 08:51, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
[snip]
>
>When they refuse to pay your invoice, put in a winding up notice on
>them and see how quickly they pay up (or promote you to CEO).
I'm not quite sure how to translate 'winding up notice' into American
idiom, Mr Maclean... but it may not be needed. I've been off the job for
the past w and change now, having come down with what is, most likely,
the most wretched bit of disease I've had in a good many years... but I
was notified that time's been approved for me until August.
As for hiring me... the more time passes, Mr Maclean, the less suited I
find myself to be for such a situation. My technical skills are what many
have called 'antiquated'... even though my base in steam-powered
techniques has allowed me, every now and then, to generate solutions that
are applicable to a more recent set of three-letter acronyms.
Managerial skills? I don't know how to use a spreadsheet, I cause looks
of horror when I ask bright, fresh faces 'All right... where in this part
of the project is your allowance for FAD?' (this is an olde-style acronym
for Fatigue, Absenteeism and Delay; I recall reading someplace that the
United States Bureau of Labor Statistics holds this should account for 25%
of any project's budget) and the best way I know of to motivate someone is
to say 'I'm not asking you to do anything I am not doing and if we can get
(x) out of you I promise to find (y) to put back into you... and if
someone won't let me then you can walk with me into the Corner Office
Idiot's office and watch me quit'... what kind of Manager is that?
Gah... perhaps there's more of this pathogen remaining in my system than I
recognise.
DD
| |
|
| In article <1173386400.984784.306110@t69g2000cwt.googlegroups.com>,
Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
[snip]
>However, certain responses seem to be automated. Is there any
>possibility that DD is an artificial intelligence (or a Turing
>machine)?
Or perhaps just another Hispano-Suiza... errrrr, a touring-car.
DD
| |
| tlmfru 2007-03-09, 6:55 pm |
|
Pete Dashwood <dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:556jm3F23p73bU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> <docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message
news:eskt5m$j4g$1@reader2.panix.com...
manual-transmission[color=darkred]
systems[color=darkred]
> There may be more truth in this than you realise, Doc.
>
> I prefer manual transmissions and I have always found user interfacing to
be
> a "difficult" part of system design. The advent of visual components has
> helped immensely, but there is still the task of deciding the logical
> workflow and ensuring things are enabled and visible when they should be.
>
There's another aspect to this analogy. I have a saying: the easier it is
to do something, the easier it is to do it badly. If you're piloting a
manual transmission, you must pay a lot more attention to what the car is
doing and to how it will react to the various circumstances: in fact, you
must be a better driver than an automatic tranny kind of guy. In the same
way, if your tools for interface design are limited you must know a great
deal about them to get the most out of them: whereas if everything's done
for you you'll see no need to spend much time on the problem. The trick,
I'd say, is in achieving the balance: ACCEPT & DISPLAY are rather too
primitive, while tools so simple a baby could use them (i.e., those IBM ads
quite a while ago) leave too much thinking out.
(I'm back after paying for my sins - I downloaded from another group what
purported to be a picture of naked women mowing the lawn - I knew it was
probably malicious but I did all the safety checks I could think of - when I
tried to run it it disappeared and I started getting all sorts of mysterious
error messages - so I had to perform drastic surgery and have only recently
got back to some semblance of operability. Caveat downloaders!)
(Is my fellow Canadian Jimmy Gavan still following the group?)
PL
| |
| Howard Brazee 2007-03-09, 6:55 pm |
| On Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:57:00 -0600, "tlmfru" <lacey@mts.net> wrote:
>There's another aspect to this analogy. I have a saying: the easier it is
>to do something, the easier it is to do it badly. If you're piloting a
>manual transmission, you must pay a lot more attention to what the car is
>doing and to how it will react to the various circumstances: in fact, you
>must be a better driver than an automatic tranny kind of guy. In the same
>way, if your tools for interface design are limited you must know a great
>deal about them to get the most out of them: whereas if everything's done
>for you you'll see no need to spend much time on the problem
Someone who has learned to use a manual transmission effectively can
use those same skills while driving an automatic transmission - and if
he continues to work at it, be even a safer driver than before
(without having to use any of his mind in hand-eye gear changing). By
the same token, the programmer who has learned assembler can use those
skills in being a better CoBOL programmer.
So while the lowest common denominator is lower and probably even the
medium for people using the automatic tools - that doesn't stop us
from being more productive and safer with automatic tools such as
transmissions, debuggers, and compilers.
| |
| Richard 2007-03-09, 6:55 pm |
| On Mar 10, 7:16 am, Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:57:00 -0600, "tlmfru" <l...@mts.net> wrote:
>
> Someone who has learned to use a manual transmission effectively can
> use those same skills while driving an automatic transmission - and if
> he continues to work at it, be even a safer driver than before
> (without having to use any of his mind in hand-eye gear changing).
I disgree that using a manual transmission requires any more 'mind in
hand-eye' gear changing. Of course someone used to an automatic may
well find an overload condition in using a clutch and stick. I also
have my car set up so that it will run down to about 400rpm and pull
away in whatever gear it happens to be in and I often go from 1st to
5th directly, first taking me quickly up to the speed limit or that of
other traffic. But, like my computers, I insist on the car being the
way that _I_ want it and not be subjected to whatever changes someone
else has decided for me.
> By
> the same token, the programmer who has learned assembler can use those
> skills in being a better CoBOL programmer.
>
> So while the lowest common denominator is lower and probably even the
> medium for people using the automatic tools - that doesn't stop us
> from being more productive and safer with automatic tools such as
> transmissions, debuggers, and compilers.
| |
| HeyBub 2007-03-09, 9:55 pm |
| tlmfru wrote:
> There's another aspect to this analogy. I have a saying: the easier
> it is to do something, the easier it is to do it badly. If you're
> piloting a manual transmission, you must pay a lot more attention to
> what the car is doing and to how it will react to the various
> circumstances: in fact, you must be a better driver than an automatic
> tranny kind of guy.
I remember a Volkswagon billboard.
Picture of VW bug.
Legend: "Never driven a stick shift? In a bit it becomes an automatic."
| |
| Howard Brazee 2007-03-12, 9:55 pm |
| When my oldest was 15, I used her as an excuse to get a stick-shift
car. I wanted my kids to learn to drive one. My children in their
30s now and they have always bought automatics. But it's better to be
able to use a stick shift and not need to than the reverse.
| |
| Alistair 2007-03-12, 9:55 pm |
| On 9 Mar, 00:37, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
> In article <1173386814.962885.20...@n33g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
>
> Alistair <alist...@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
>
> I'm not quite sure how to translate 'winding up notice' into American
> idiom,
Begin bankruptcy proceedings against them. But your claim would be
against your agent rather than the end-client, unless you were
contracting direct.
Mr Maclean... but it may not be needed. I've been off the job for
> the past w and change now, having come down with what is, most likely,
> the most wretched bit of disease I've had in a good many years... but I
> was notified that time's been approved for me until August.
>
> As for hiring me... the more time passes, Mr Maclean, the less suited I
> find myself to be for such a situation.
Ditto, here.
My technical skills are what many
> have called 'antiquated'... even though my base in steam-powered
> techniques has allowed me, every now and then, to generate solutions that
> are applicable to a more recent set of three-letter acronyms.
>
> Managerial skills? I don't know how to use a spreadsheet, I cause looks
> of horror when I ask bright, fresh faces 'All right... where in this part
> of the project is your allowance for FAD?' (this is an olde-style acronym
> for Fatigue, Absenteeism and Delay; I recall reading someplace that the
> United States Bureau of Labor Statistics holds this should account for 25%
Bit steep isn't it?
> of any project's budget) and the best way I know of to motivate someone is
> to say 'I'm not asking you to do anything I am not doing and if we can get
> (x) out of you I promise to find (y) to put back into you... and if
> someone won't let me then you can walk with me into the Corner Office
> Idiot's office and watch me quit'... what kind of Manager is that?
>
> Gah... perhaps there's more of this pathogen remaining in my system than I
> recognise.
>
> DD
| |
| Alistair 2007-03-12, 9:55 pm |
| On 9 Mar, 00:41, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
> In article <1173386400.984784.306...@t69g2000cwt.googlegroups.com>,
>
> Alistair <alist...@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
> Or perhaps just another Hispano-Suiza... errrrr, a touring-car.
>
> DD
I know what Hispano-Suizas were. Thanks.
| |
|
| In article <1173728444.621208.214460@q40g2000cwq.googlegroups.com>,
Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 9 Mar, 00:37, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
[snip]
[color=darkred]
>
>Begin bankruptcy proceedings against them. But your claim would be
>against your agent rather than the end-client, unless you were
>contracting direct.
Ahhhh... thanks much for the clarification and pointer, Mr Maclean... but
given the types of business entities involved the most likely
beneficiaries of such an action would be the attornies.
[snip]
>
>Bit steep isn't it?
It seems that way... but it *does* have the imprimatur of the US BLS and
it gets folks to thinking about how to account for that hour-and-change
each day that just manages to... disappear.
Years on back I would ask the question 'How long does it take to get a cup
of coffee and some papers photocopied?'... and my response would be 'No,
it takes about an hour and a half. First, the coffee machine's emptied to
its last sixteenth-of-an-inch of boiled sludge and you have to wash out
the carafe and get another pot started. Then you walk across the floor to
the photocopy machine... and find that it is down. You take the elevator
up to the next floor, stand in the line for the available photocopy
machine, put your originals on the glass... and find out you've forgotten
two sheets. You wait for the elevator, get back to your floor, stop by
the coffee machine and find it empty again. You get another batch of
coffee running, fetch your missing sheets, wait for the elevator, wait in
line, make your copies, wait for the elevator, *this* time you're lucky
and there's a cup of coffee left... but there's no sugar, you have to go
to the supply cabinet the *other* way across the floor and beg the Old
Lady With The Key for office supplies. You get the sugar, rush back to
find that last cup of coffee still in the pot - a day of miracles! - and
make yourself some mud... in your annoyance, of course, not making the
third pot of coffee and prepetuating a bit of the cause of your own delay
to others.
A cup of coffee and a few pages photocopied... an hour and a half, right
there.'
DD
| |
|
| In article <1173728506.585374.277670@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 9 Mar, 00:41, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
>
>I know what Hispano-Suizas were.
That's quite all right, Mr Maclean... I've dealt with some members of The
Empire who seem to indicate that unless something is specified to their
own level of detail the describer is quilty of some manner of Cultural
Flaw, I did my best, as an exercise in this case, to pander to their
pathology.
>Thanks.
A pleasure.
DD
| |
| SkippyPB 2007-03-13, 6:55 pm |
| On 12 Mar 2007 12:41:46 -0700, "Alistair"
<alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 9 Mar, 00:41, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
>
>I know what Hispano-Suizas were. Thanks.
I don't think he's French :)
Regards,
////
(o o)
-oOO--(_)--OOo-
"Attention eyeballs: This is the brain. Mayday, mayday, mayday.
We have two giant bazooms closing from the south. Do not engage,
repeat: Do not engage. She's drinking red wine, and there's PMS.
We are at DEFCON 3. I say again: two bouncing honkers are closing.
Chest size: three-niner. Cup size: David, David, David.
Do not engage those tits."
-- Richard Jeni (R.I.P.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Remove nospam to email me.
Steve
| |
| Alistair 2007-03-13, 6:55 pm |
| On 13 Mar, 09:38, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
> In article <1173728444.621208.214...@q40g2000cwq.googlegroups.com>,
>
> Alistair <alist...@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> [snip]
>
>
>
>
> Ahhhh... thanks much for the clarification and pointer, Mr Maclean... but
> given the types of business entities involved the most likely
> beneficiaries of such an action would be the attornies.
You may not make anything out of it but you mught screw up your
clients' credit rating. My boozy chum (remember him? you solved his
double access problem) knew a contractor who started bankruptcy
proceedings against an employer. The employer paid up becuse (in the
UK at least) the initiation of bankruptcy proceedings against the
client drops the clients' credit rating throught the floor double
time.
>
> [snip]
>
>
>
> It seems that way... but it *does* have the imprimatur of the US BLS and
> it gets folks to thinking about how to account for that hour-and-change
> each day that just manages to... disappear.
>
> Years on back I would ask the question 'How long does it take to get a cup
> of coffee and some papers photocopied?'... and my response would be 'No,
> it takes about an hour and a half. First, the coffee machine's emptied to
> its last sixteenth-of-an-inch of boiled sludge and you have to wash out
> the carafe and get another pot started. Then you walk across the floor to
> the photocopy machine... and find that it is down. You take the elevator
> up to the next floor, stand in the line for the available photocopy
> machine, put your originals on the glass... and find out you've forgotten
> two sheets. You wait for the elevator, get back to your floor, stop by
> the coffee machine and find it empty again. You get another batch of
> coffee running, fetch your missing sheets, wait for the elevator, wait in
> line, make your copies, wait for the elevator, *this* time you're lucky
> and there's a cup of coffee left... but there's no sugar, you have to go
> to the supply cabinet the *other* way across the floor and beg the Old
> Lady With The Key for office supplies. You get the sugar, rush back to
> find that last cup of coffee still in the pot - a day of miracles! - and
> make yourself some mud... in your annoyance, of course, not making the
> third pot of coffee and prepetuating a bit of the cause of your own delay
> to others.
>
> A cup of coffee and a few pages photocopied... an hour and a half, right
> there.'
And that is why god invented secretaries. It does make you wonder why
there isn't a three-in-one fax/printer/scanner on every desk (after
all, they are so cheap nowadays...unlike the golden dayse of yore).
>
> DD
| |
| Howard Brazee 2007-03-13, 6:55 pm |
| On 13 Mar 2007 13:10:57 -0700, "Alistair"
<alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>And that is why god invented secretaries. It does make you wonder why
>there isn't a three-in-one fax/printer/scanner on every desk (after
>all, they are so cheap nowadays...unlike the golden dayse of yore).
I don't want everything on my desk. I work better if I get up and
walk around periodically - but when I'm busy I forget to do so.
Also - a two-sided laser printer is cheaper per page, but not so cheap
to buy.
| |
|
| In article <1173816657.945984.185790@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 13 Mar, 09:38, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
[snip]
[color=darkred]
>
>You may not make anything out of it but you mught screw up your
>clients' credit rating. My boozy chum (remember him? you solved his
>double access problem) knew a contractor who started bankruptcy
>proceedings against an employer. The employer paid up becuse (in the
>UK at least) the initiation of bankruptcy proceedings against the
>client drops the clients' credit rating throught the floor double
>time.
Different places, different laws, Mr Maclean... here, in the United States
of America, 'so... sue me' is one of the ways many businessfolk say 'go
away'.
[snip]
>
>And that is why god invented secretaries. It does make you wonder why
>there isn't a three-in-one fax/printer/scanner on every desk (after
>all, they are so cheap nowadays...unlike the golden dayse of yore).
Eh? Where does this 'three-in-one fax/printer/scanner' connect to the
3278 terminal I am told to use and be grateful for?
DD
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