Cobol - Cornstarch?

Author

Cornstarch?

Pete Dashwood

2007-10-23, 6:55 pm

This morning I received an invitation from Fujitsu to attend the Oracle
OpenWorld 07 event in San Francisco next month.

I would go, but I'm far too busy at the moment.

Nevertheless, it was interesting to see how Fujitsu are moving to SOA in
partnership with Oracle and most of what's going on there is SOA oriented.

As I looked through the agenda the following caught my eye...

"Fujitsu is eco-friendly too!
Fujitsu premieres the world's first laptop housing made from cornstarch
(bio-based plastic). Come see it and our space-and energy-efficient
PRIMERGY® TX120 tower server in the Eco-Friendly section of the Inside
Innovation area at Oracle OpenWorld. "

The latest notebook I have (Vaio AR250G - I call it Bigblack) is made from
kevlar.

Now, I don't know about you folks, but if I have a choice between cornstarch
or kevlar, I think I'd prefer to have something that can stop a bullet for
me, should the need arise... :-)

Is this politically correct eco thing just getting silly, or have Fujitsu
tapped into something that is really serious and important?

Comments?

Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."

LX-i

2007-10-23, 9:55 pm

Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
> Is this politically correct eco thing just getting silly...?

Isn't that a redundant question?

Actually, I'd say, no, it isn't "just getting" silly, it's *been* silly
for a long time. But, the durability may not be a big deal to some
people - I've known of at least 4 people who have laptops, and hardly
ever (if that) take them out of the docking station.

Think of the biodegradable laptop - better not spill any water on it! :)

--
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"Who is more irrational? A man who believes in a God he doesn't see,
or a man who's offended by a God he doesn't believe in?" - Brad Stine

billious

2007-10-24, 3:55 am

"Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:5o78vfFl9t9vU1@mid.individual.net...
> This morning I received an invitation from Fujitsu to attend the Oracle
> OpenWorld 07 event in San Francisco next month.
>
> I would go, but I'm far too busy at the moment.
>
> Nevertheless, it was interesting to see how Fujitsu are moving to SOA in
> partnership with Oracle and most of what's going on there is SOA oriented.
>
> As I looked through the agenda the following caught my eye...
>
>
> "Fujitsu is eco-friendly too!
> Fujitsu premieres the world's first laptop housing made from cornstarch
> (bio-based plastic). Come see it and our space-and energy-efficient
> PRIMERGY® TX120 tower server in the Eco-Friendly section of the Inside
> Innovation area at Oracle OpenWorld. "
>
> The latest notebook I have (Vaio AR250G - I call it Bigblack) is made from
> kevlar.
>
> Now, I don't know about you folks, but if I have a choice between
> cornstarch or kevlar, I think I'd prefer to have something that can stop a
> bullet for me, should the need arise... :-)
>
> Is this politically correct eco thing just getting silly, or have Fujitsu
> tapped into something that is really serious and important?
>
> Comments?
>
> Pete.
> --
> "I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."
>

If the need arose, could you eat your kevlar-cased laptop?

Bon Appetit!

Pete Dashwood

2007-10-24, 7:55 am

"billious" <billious_1954@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:471edc57$0$12183$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.com...
>
> "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:5o78vfFl9t9vU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> If the need arose, could you eat your kevlar-cased laptop?

Possibly... but I expect it would make me billious :-)

>
> Bon Appetit!
>

Thank you :-)

(Funny thing... I accidentally dropped it about 3 feet onto a coffee table
tonight... turned it on with fear and trepidation, having visions of months
of work disappearing (yes, I normally back up current projects to DVD every
w

or so, But I've been ill lately so it is a few w

s since a
backup....) it is functioning perfectly (and the first thing I did was back
up the current project :-)). Don't know if it was the kevlar or if I was
just lucky, but I guess it says something for SONY build quality... Betcha
cornstarch would've shattered...popcorn!)

Pete
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."

Alistair

2007-10-25, 6:55 pm

On 23 Oct, 22:55, "Pete Dashwood" <dashw...@removethis.enternet.co.nz>
wrote:
> This morning I received an invitation from Fujitsu to attend the Oracle
> OpenWorld 07 event in San Francisco next month.
>
> I would go, but I'm far too busy at the moment.
>
> Nevertheless, it was interesting to see how Fujitsu are moving to SOA in
> partnership with Oracle and most of what's going on there is SOA oriented.
>
> As I looked through the agenda the following caught my eye...
>
> "Fujitsu is eco-friendly too!
> Fujitsu premieres the world's first laptop housing made from cornstarch
> (bio-based plastic). Come see it and our space-and energy-efficient
> PRIMERGY=AE TX120 tower server in the Eco-Friendly section of the Inside
> Innovation area at Oracle OpenWorld. "
>
> The latest notebook I have (Vaio AR250G - I call it Bigblack) is made from
> kevlar.
>
> Now, I don't know about you folks, but if I have a choice between cornsta=
rch
> or kevlar, I think I'd prefer to have something that can stop a bullet for
> me, should the need arise... :-)
>
> Is this politically correct eco thing just getting silly, or have Fujitsu
> tapped into something that is really serious and important?
>
> Comments?
>
> Pete.
> --
> "I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."

I doubt if the laptop casing, being made of a cornstarch polymer, is
any more politically correct than the kevlar one that you own. Based
on a position of total ignorance, my suspicion is that cornstarch
polymers are no more bio-degradable than any other plastic.

However, you can rest easy knowing that the source of the cornstarch
is actively depleting the increased CO2 levels although the freight-
miles would negate that gain and make it negligible in the overall
equation.

Robert

2007-10-25, 9:55 pm

On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 09:39:40 -0700, Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 23 Oct, 22:55, "Pete Dashwood" <dashw...@removethis.enternet.co.nz>
>wrote:
>
>I doubt if the laptop casing, being made of a cornstarch polymer, is
>any more politically correct than the kevlar one that you own. Based
>on a position of total ignorance, my suspicion is that cornstarch
>polymers are no more bio-degradable than any other plastic.

Your suspicion is wrong, cornstarch 'plastic' IS biodegradable. The polymer is not
synthesized from cornstarch. Starches (along with proteins and DNA) are natural polymers.
Picture a starch molecule as several thousand paper clips hooked together, where each
paper clip represents a glucose molecule.

>However, you can rest easy knowing that the source of the cornstarch
>is actively depleting the increased CO2 levels although the freight-
>miles would negate that gain and make it negligible in the overall
>equation.

Freight is a minor 10% of the energy equation -- 6,000 BTU per bushel containing 30 lbs of
starch. Fertilizer is the greatest energy consumer. If we were smart, we'd make ethanol
and plastic from grass and wood. We don't because there's no grass lobby clamoring for
support.

HeyBub

2007-10-26, 7:55 am

Robert wrote:
>
> Your suspicion is wrong, cornstarch 'plastic' IS biodegradable. The
> polymer is not synthesized from cornstarch. Starches (along with
> proteins and DNA) are natural polymers. Picture a starch molecule as
> several thousand paper clips hooked together, where each paper clip
> represents a glucose molecule.

More's the pity. A plastic bag or Coke bottle is with us forever. Paper,
carboard, etc., do degrade and leach the contents of their manufacturing
process into the environment.

Look at an empty box of Tide. Notice it's nifty eye-catching orange color?
The orange color is made from Chromium.

Oh well.

donald tees

2007-10-26, 7:55 am

Robert wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 09:39:40 -0700, Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> Your suspicion is wrong, cornstarch 'plastic' IS biodegradable. The polymer is not
> synthesized from cornstarch. Starches (along with proteins and DNA) are natural polymers.
> Picture a starch molecule as several thousand paper clips hooked together, where each
> paper clip represents a glucose molecule.
>
>
> Freight is a minor 10% of the energy equation -- 6,000 BTU per bushel containing 30 lbs of
> starch. Fertilizer is the greatest energy consumer. If we were smart, we'd make ethanol
> and plastic from grass and wood. We don't because there's no grass lobby clamoring for
> support.

Obviously, you have not heard of Mark Emery. <G>

Donald

billious

2007-10-26, 6:55 pm

"donald tees" <donaldtees@execulink.com> wrote in message
news:joGdnQrvePmffbzanZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@go
lden.net...
[snip]
> Obviously, you have not heard of Mark Emery. <G>

Oh, I've heard of him. Abrasive person - really rubs me up the wrong way.

Robert

2007-10-26, 6:55 pm

On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 07:12:18 -0500, "HeyBub" <heybubNOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:

>Robert wrote:
>
>More's the pity. A plastic bag or Coke bottle is with us forever. Paper,
>carboard, etc., do degrade and leach the contents of their manufacturing
>process into the environment.

Paper is not biodegradable. In old landfills, one can pull out a fifty year old phone
books that are easily readable. Cellulose is like starch in that both are long chain
polymers of glucose. They differ in that cellulose is not water soluble. If it were, trees
would droop and fall over, wooden ships would sink, cotton clothes would dissolve in the
wash. What makes a chemical water soluble is free polarized sites for hydrogen bonds and
internal bonds weak enough to achieve a lower entropy state. This isn't a an appropriate
forum for technical chemistry/physics. Grazing animals, termites and decaying wood break
down cellulose with enzymes produced by microbes which are generally not found in
landfills.

Cornstarch 'plastic' would not work for Coke bottles, but IS used for milk bottles which
have a one w

shelf life. It is commonly used for bags.

>Look at an empty box of Tide. Notice it's nifty eye-catching orange color?
>The orange color is made from Chromium.

Do you have a cite? If true, the dye is something red mixed with chrome yellow, which is
lead chromate. The environmental danger there is from lead, not chromium. Chromium has two
isomers, one good and the other bad. The bad one, called hexavalent chromium, was seen in
Erin Brockovich. The good one is found in chrome yellow and chromium picolinate pills sold
as a diet supplement.

HeyBub

2007-10-26, 6:55 pm

Robert wrote:
>
>
> Do you have a cite?

I saw it on TV so it must be true.

> If true, the dye is something red mixed with
> chrome yellow, which is lead chromate. The environmental danger there
> is from lead, not chromium. Chromium has two isomers, one good and
> the other bad. The bad one, called hexavalent chromium, was seen in
> Erin Brockovich. The good one is found in chrome yellow and chromium
> picolinate pills sold as a diet supplement.

More people have died from contact with chrome than ever got bothered by
lead.

Judson McClendon

2007-10-26, 6:55 pm

"HeyBub" <heybubNOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> More people have died from contact with chrome than ever got bothered by lead.

Are we talking bumpers and bullets here? :-)
--
Judson McClendon judmc@sunvaley0.com (remove zero)
Sun Valley Systems http://sunvaley.com
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

HeyBub

2007-10-26, 6:55 pm

Judson McClendon wrote:
> "HeyBub" <heybubNOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Are we talking bumpers and bullets here? :-)

Well, yeah. Ignoring wartime, of course.

Robert

2007-10-26, 9:55 pm

On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 14:26:06 -0500, "HeyBub" <heybubNOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:

>Robert wrote:
>
>I saw it on TV so it must be true.
>
>
>More people have died from contact with chrome than ever got bothered by
>lead.

Chromium is an ESSENTIAL micronutrient. Without it, you wouldn't be able to metabolize
sugar.

No one has reliable body counts on either. Lead doesn't kill, it causes nerve and
developmental defects in children. The bad form of chromium does kill via lung cancer when
inhaled; when not inhaled, it causes blindness when rubbed in the eyes and contact
dermatitis when it gets on skin.

The greatest chromium risk outside the workplace is from welding or cutting stainless
steel. When heated to high temperatures (way above cooking), 'good' chromium in stainless
steel is turned into the 'bad' (6) form.

Pete Dashwood

2007-10-26, 9:55 pm

"HeyBub" <heybubNOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:13i4fq69l8b0iad@news.supernews.com...
> Robert wrote:
>
> I saw it on TV so it must be true.
>
>
> More people have died from contact with chrome than ever got bothered by
> lead.
....Especially when it is on the bumper of a car travelling at speed... :-)

Pete
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."

Pete Dashwood

2007-10-26, 9:55 pm

"billious" <billious_1954@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4721fb26$0$12170$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.com...
>
> "donald tees" <donaldtees@execulink.com> wrote in message
> news:joGdnQrvePmffbzanZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@go
lden.net...
> [snip]
>
> Oh, I've heard of him. Abrasive person - really rubs me up the wrong way.
Yeah, me too. I got board with him after 10 minutes...

Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."

Bill Gunshannon

2007-10-27, 7:55 am

In article <13i4fq69l8b0iad@news.supernews.com>,
"HeyBub" <heybubNOSPAM@gmail.com> writes:
> Robert wrote:
>
> I saw it on TV so it must be true.
>
>
> More people have died from contact with chrome than ever got bothered by
> lead.

Especially chrome moving at a high rate of speed.

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>

Howard Brazee

2007-10-29, 6:55 pm

On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 17:34:10 -0500, "HeyBub" <heybubNOSPAM@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>Well, yeah. Ignoring wartime, of course.

I don't find wartime is ignorable.

Alistair

2007-10-29, 6:55 pm

On 25 Oct, 23:56, Robert <n...@e.mail> wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 09:39:40 -0700, Alistair <alist...@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> Your suspicion is wrong, cornstarch 'plastic' IS biodegradable. The polymer is not
> synthesized from cornstarch. Starches (along with proteins and DNA) are natural polymers.
> Picture a starch molecule as several thousand paper clips hooked together, where each
> paper clip represents a glucose molecule.
>

Cornstarch polymer is not synthesized from cornstarch? I know what a
polymer is and I also know that not all naturally occuring polymers
are biodegradable. I also know that some artificial plastics (see the
DDR's Trabant) are bidegradable.

ps, with a degree in Marine Biology I do not need lectures in how to
envisage polyumers.

>
> Freight is a minor 10% of the energy equation -- 6,000 BTU per bushel containing 30 lbs of
> starch. Fertilizer is the greatest energy consumer. If we were smart, we'd make ethanol
> and plastic from grass and wood. We don't because there's no grass lobby clamoring for
> support.- Hide quoted text -

Every percentage point counts. After all: look after the pennies and
the pounds will look after themselves.

There is little to feel good about but I think that the worlsd is
coming around to the view that we can use straw and cellulose to
produce ethanol and electricity. Amazing that it has taken them so
long.

>
> - Show quoted text -

Alistair

2007-10-29, 6:55 pm

On 26 Oct, 14:04, "billious" <billious_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "donald tees" <donaldt...@execulink.com> wrote in message
>
> news:joGdnQrvePmffbzanZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@go
lden.net...
> [snip]
>
>
> Oh, I've heard of him. Abrasive person - really rubs me up the wrong way.

You are using the wrong grade of emery.

2007-10-29, 6:55 pm

In article <1193692451.088716.254670@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com>,
Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:

[snip]

>Every percentage point counts.

The way in which it counts might not be the same... consider the concept
of 'diminishing returns'.

>After all: look after the pennies and
>the pounds will look after themselves.

I am not sure that happens in the forest that one cannot see for the
trees.

DD

Alistair

2007-10-29, 6:55 pm

On 29 Oct, 21:42, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
> In article <1193692451.088716.254...@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com>,
>
> Alistair <alist...@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
> The way in which it counts might not be the same... consider the concept
> of 'diminishing returns'.

Unfortunately, very true.

>
>
> I am not sure that happens in the forest that one cannot see for the
> trees.
>
> DD

Doc, in being absent from this group I have missed your wit anf
petinant observations.

Thank you.

However, if we do not start educating people to save pennies (I know
the currency has not seen your shores for over 200 years) then we are
doomed, as a civilisation, to an early death.

Pete Dashwood

2007-10-29, 6:55 pm

"Alistair" <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1193692451.088716.254670@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
> On 25 Oct, 23:56, Robert <n...@e.mail> wrote:
>
> Cornstarch polymer is not synthesized from cornstarch? I know what a
> polymer is and I also know that not all naturally occuring polymers
> are biodegradable. I also know that some artificial plastics (see the
> DDR's Trabant) are bidegradable.
>
> ps, with a degree in Marine Biology I do not need lectures in how to
> envisage polyumers.

The response was a public one, Alistair. Don't take it personally. There are
many people here with many levels of education; simplifying something for
easy assimilation can never be "wrong". (I liked the paperclip analogy, even
if it is slightly flawed; carbon atoms sharing electrons might be more like
people holding hands than interlinked paperclips, but it is still a good
working model...:-))

Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."

2007-10-29, 9:55 pm

In article <1193696339.535862.310110@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>,
Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 29 Oct, 21:42, docdw...@panix.com () wrote:
>
>Unfortunately, very true.

Eh? I'm not sure about this 'unfortunately'; it seems as appropriate as
describing gravity or boiling-points as 'unfortunate' when, for a
moderately fair-sized set of observations, they just kind of appear to
be... there.

(manipulable, to an extent, sure - magnetic forces are used to overcome
the effects of gravity and a change in pressure can effect a change in
boiling-point - but still... for a moderately fair-sized set of
observations they just kind of appear to be... there)

>
>
>Doc, in being absent from this group I have missed your wit anf
>petinant observations.
>
>Thank you.

Shucks, t'warn't nothin'... you'se jes' easily set to expressin'
gratitudes, that's all.

>
>However, if we do not start educating people to save pennies (I know
>the currency has not seen your shores for over 200 years) then we are
>doomed, as a civilisation, to an early death.

I'm not sure what you're calling 'we' or 'civilisation' here... but it
seems that things have their times and seasons; as the physician said to
the mother of a lad who swallowed a few ball-bearings: 'These, too, shall
pass'.

DD

2007-10-29, 9:55 pm

In article <5on825Fnm91gU1@mid.individual.net>,
Pete Dashwood <dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote:

[snip]

>(I liked the paperclip analogy, even
>if it is slightly flawed; carbon atoms sharing electrons might be more like
>people holding hands than interlinked paperclips, but it is still a good
>working model...:-))

Hmmmmm... we need to whip up some alkynes, can someone call the
subcontinent and see when Kali's available?

DD

billious

2007-10-29, 9:55 pm

"Alistair" <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1193692545.889593.6350@o38g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On 26 Oct, 14:04, "billious" <billious_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> You are using the wrong grade of emery.
>

Oooh - you are awful.

....But I like you!

Robert

2007-10-30, 3:55 am

On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 14:14:11 -0700, Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 25 Oct, 23:56, Robert <n...@e.mail> wrote:
>
>Cornstarch polymer is not synthesized from cornstarch?

I learned much of it IS synthesized. Manufacturers break starch polymers down to lactic
acid, then re-link the monomers into long chain polyesters. The stuff is called polylactic
acid or PLA. Absorbable sutures have been made this way since the 1950s.

> I know what a
>polymer is and I also know that not all naturally occuring polymers
>are biodegradable.

Notably cellulose.

>I also know that some artificial plastics (see the
>DDR's Trabant) are bidegradable.

Biodegradable petrochemical plastics are more expensive than bioplastics. Non-degradable
are still less expensive than bioplastics, but the gap is closing.

>ps, with a degree in Marine Biology I do not need lectures in how to
>envisage polymers.

Sorry. Perhaps others do.

>
>Every percentage point counts. After all: look after the pennies and
>the pounds will look after themselves.
>
>There is little to feel good about but I think that the worlsd is
>coming around to the view that we can use straw and cellulose to
>produce ethanol and electricity. Amazing that it has taken them so
>long.

As an outside figure, if ALL grassland and suitable woodland in the US produced cellulose
for ethanol, the 1 billion tons of biomass would displace 30% of US petroleum consumption.
http://www.ethanolrfa.org/resource/cellulosic/

For comparison, there are two trillion barrels of crude oil in Colorado's oil shale, and
one trillion in Canada's oil sands. That's six times total reserves in the Middle East.
The US consumes seven billion barrels per year. We have a 400 year supply.

Pete Dashwood

2007-10-30, 7:55 am

"billious" <billious_1954@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:47268ec7$0$12183$a82e2bb9@reader.athenanews.com...
>
> "Alistair" <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1193692545.889593.6350@o38g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> Oooh - you are awful.
>
> ...But I like you!
>
LOL!

As that will pass over the heads of most of the non-UK readers, it is a
reference to a catch-phrase from a much loved British comedian, Dick
Emery...

Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."

Pete Dashwood

2007-10-30, 7:55 am

<docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:fg5ubc$nb0$1@reader1.panix.com...
> In article <5on825Fnm91gU1@mid.individual.net>,
> Pete Dashwood <dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
> Hmmmmm... we need to whip up some alkynes, can someone call the
> subcontinent and see when Kali's available?
>
> DD
>

I think she has her hands full at the moment, Doc...

Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."

2007-10-30, 7:55 am

In article <5ooc5tFnsureU1@mid.individual.net>,
Pete Dashwood <dashwood@removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
><docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:fg5ubc$nb0$1@reader1.panix.com...
>
>I think she has her hands full at the moment, Doc...

When did she start cooking for Dutchmen?

Oh... you said 'hands full', not 'Hans full'... my error.

DD

Howard Brazee

2007-10-30, 6:55 pm

On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 00:33:44 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf@panix.com () wrote:

>
>Eh? I'm not sure about this 'unfortunately'; it seems as appropriate as
>describing gravity or boiling-points as 'unfortunate' when, for a
>moderately fair-sized set of observations, they just kind of appear to
>be... there.

Which doesn't stop some women from complaining that "Men act like boys
instead of like men", or Spock being surprised when humans act like
humans.

Or a variety of people complaining about humans having animal natures.

I suppose it is our nature to complain about us being... natural.

Alistair

2007-10-31, 6:55 pm

On 30 Oct, 05:11, Robert <n...@e.mail> wrote:
>
>
> I learned much of it IS synthesized. Manufacturers break starch polymers down to lactic
> acid, then re-link the monomers into long chain polyesters. The stuff is called polylactic
> acid or PLA. Absorbable sutures have been made this way since the 1950s.
>
>
> Notably cellulose.

We would be up to our necks in trees if cellulose were not bio-
degradable. However, as we would be too close to the wood we probably
wouldn't be able to see the trees.

>
>
>

Added to which there is a possibility that trucking biomass around to
synthesizer plants may consume more fuel than it generates. There was
a recent (in the last two years) Scientific American podcast going
into detail about the economics of biofuels. It made for gloomy
listening.
[color=darkred]
>
>
>
> As an outside figure, if ALL grassland and suitable woodland in the US produced cellulose
> for ethanol, the 1 billion tons of biomass would displace 30% of US petroleum consumption.http://www.ethanolrfa.org/resource/cellulosic/
>

I take it that this refers to currently unused resources? I only ask
because there are already problems with wheat growing land being
turned away from food production and towards production for biofuels.
And that is why the price of wheat has risen recently.

Howard Brazee

2007-10-31, 6:55 pm

On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 06:45:24 -0700, Alistair
<alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:

Around 1968-1969 I read a novel about a man with a hyphenated name who
wanted to take his revenge against computers that truncated his name.
He came up with a bug that ate computer tapes. This turned out to be
a Good Thing for ecological reasons.

[color=darkred]
>Added to which there is a possibility that trucking biomass around to
>synthesizer plants may consume more fuel than it generates. There was
>a recent (in the last two years) Scientific American podcast going
>into detail about the economics of biofuels. It made for gloomy
>listening.

The other variable getting too little publicity is the amount of fuel
used to create nitrate fertilizer to grow the biomass.

One of the solutions to the CO2 problem is to plow biomass under after
harvest. Of course that means those stalks aren't used to create
biofuel.

Robert

2007-11-01, 3:55 am

On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 08:59:52 -0600, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> wrote:

>On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 06:45:24 -0700, Alistair
><alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>Around 1968-1969 I read a novel about a man with a hyphenated name who
>wanted to take his revenge against computers that truncated his name.
>He came up with a bug that ate computer tapes. This turned out to be
>a Good Thing for ecological reasons.

When computer tapes were first made, by IBM in the early '50s, the substrate was cellulose
acetate. There certainly ARE microbes that can break the bonds in cellulose and eat the
sugar components.

In the mid '50s, DuPont invented Mylar, which is a petrochemical polyester. IBM switched
computer tapes to Mylar in the late '50s. If memory serves, I could be wrong, consumer
grade audio tapes did not switch to Mylar until the late '60s. Microbes cannot eat the
polyester monomer ( polyethylene terephthalate) because it doesn't have any glycosidic
bonds.

The author of that novel mistakenly ASSumed computer tapes were made from the same stuff
as audio tapes.

Robert

2007-11-01, 3:55 am

On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 06:45:24 -0700, Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 30 Oct, 05:11, Robert <n...@e.mail> wrote:

>
>Added to which there is a possibility that trucking biomass around to
>synthesizer plants may consume more fuel than it generates. There was
>a recent (in the last two years) Scientific American podcast going
>into detail about the economics of biofuels. It made for gloomy
>listening.

Most studies on energy and environment are BIASED by:

... Commercial self-interest
... Anti-commercial sentiment in academia, idealism
... Culture, nationalism
... Competing scientific/engineering specialties

Compounding the problem is lack of information about petroleum. We don't know how much is
down there nor how it was formed. If you think it was formed by biomass, read this
impartial article about alternative hypotheses:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Abiog...ation_mechanism

Porphyrins are a class of molecules found in both biological and non-biological carbon
systems. Chlorophyll is the principal form in plants; heme is the principal form in
animals. The difference between the two is that chlorophyll has an atom of magnesium in
the middle while heme has an atom of iron. Changing one atom would turn you into a plant.
The porphyrins in petroleum have an atom of vanadium or nickel in the middle. Both metals
are toxic to large plants and animals. The only life form using them are archaea, a
pre-bacteria living mostly near the Earth's mantle. Archaea create methane. The same
porphyrins have been found in the cores of more than a hundred meteorites, which are
obviously? created by geology rather than biology.

>
>I take it that this refers to currently unused resources?

Yes.

> I only ask
>because there are already problems with wheat growing land being
>turned away from food production and towards production for biofuels.
>And that is why the price of wheat has risen recently.

Sounds like scaremongering from the petro industry. Wheat is a high protein grain. Using
it for fuel is like burning furniture for heat.

Alistair

2007-11-01, 7:55 am

On 1 Nov, 04:06, Robert <n...@e.mail> wrote:
> Compounding the problem is lack of information about petroleum. We don't know how much is
> down there nor how it was formed. If you think it was formed by biomass, read this
> impartial article about alternative hypotheses:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Abiog...olyme
...
>
> Porphyrins are a class of molecules found in both biological and non-biological carbon
> systems. Chlorophyll is the principal form in plants; heme is the principal form in
> animals. The difference between the two is that chlorophyll has an atom of magnesium in
> the middle while heme has an atom of iron. Changing one atom would turn you into a plant.
> The porphyrins in petroleum have an atom of vanadium or nickel in the middle. Both metals
> are toxic to large plants and animals. The only life form using them are archaea, a
> pre-bacteria living mostly near the Earth's mantle. Archaea create methane. The same
> porphyrins have been found in the cores of more than a hundred meteorites, which are
> obviously? created by geology rather than biology.

The theory about a non-biotic origin for oils in the crust is not new.
Nor is it accepted as the origin of the petroleum. It would, if true,
allow us to create endless quantities of petroleum if we could inject
methane (a greenhouse gas) into the crust. That sounds something like
a perpetual motion machine to me (something for nothing).

>
>
>
> Sounds like scaremongering from the petro industry. Wheat is a high protein grain. Using
> it for fuel is like burning furniture for heat.

The scientist concerned was not scaremongering but merely questioning
the mathematics of the biofuel lobbyists. I agree with your simile.
Far better to grow long-stemmed wheats and use the wheat straw (mostly
cellulose) to generate ethanol.

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