Cobol - OT typical salary scale for COBOL mainframe programmers

Author

OT typical salary scale for COBOL mainframe programmers

John Culleton

2006-09-07, 6:55 pm

Can someone refer me to a website (or just give me the data)
indicating typical salaries for mainframe COBOL programmers
nationally or in the Mid-Atlantic area? It is for an article I am
writing.

--
John Culleton
Able Indexers and Typesetters

James J. Gavan

2006-09-07, 6:55 pm

John Culleton wrote:
> Can someone refer me to a website (or just give me the data)
> indicating typical salaries for mainframe COBOL programmers
> nationally or in the Mid-Atlantic area? It is for an article I am
> writing.
>
Which mid-Atlantic island did you have in mind ? :-)

john@wexfordpress.com

2006-09-12, 6:55 pm

James J. Gavan wrote:
> John Culleton wrote:
> Which mid-Atlantic island did you have in mind ? :-)

I used to write programs for the Hotel Corporation of the Bahamas but
that was on a Radio Shack
6000 in RMCOBOL. I meant Mid-Atlantic States of course, United States
of America. Western Hemisphere, Planet Earth, third planet of of the
star Sol, in the Milky Way Galaxy...

John Culleton, CDP, RBP

James J. Gavan

2006-09-12, 6:55 pm

john@wexfordpress.com wrote:
> James J. Gavan wrote:
>
>
>
> I used to write programs for the Hotel Corporation of the Bahamas but
> that was on a Radio Shack
> 6000 in RMCOBOL. I meant Mid-Atlantic States of course, United States
> of America. Western Hemisphere, Planet Earth, third planet of of the
> star Sol, in the Milky Way Galaxy...
>

Hey something in the Bahamas - nice if you made visits there :-)

Curious - what was the Shack's 6000. Did it precede the TRS Models,
Color Computer, Model II, 16 etc., or was it something that came out
after them ? As for RM - possibly Version 1.0 something ?

Seriously, I would have thought an American would have referred to the
East Coast seaboard rather than Mid-Atlantic.

Jimmy

2006-09-12, 6:55 pm

In article <orCNg.547282$IK3.132543@pd7tw1no>,
James J. Gavan <jgavandeletethis@shaw.ca> wrote:

[snip]

>Seriously, I would have thought an American would have referred to the
>East Coast seaboard rather than Mid-Atlantic.

As I recall being taught, e'er-so-long ago - and my memory is, admittedly,
porous - the East Coast seaboard states can be divided into the New
England (Maine, Massachusetts, Rhode Island and Connecticut), Mid-Atlantic
(New York, New Jersey, Delaware and Virginia) and Southern (North
Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia and Florida) regions... or something
like that.

DD

Richard

2006-09-12, 6:55 pm

john@wexfordpress.com wrote:

> I meant Mid-Atlantic States of course,

Mid ( Atlantic States ) rather than ( Mid Atlantic ) States, then.

Howard Brazee

2006-09-12, 6:55 pm

On 12 Sep 2006 11:49:30 -0700, "Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote:

>
>Mid ( Atlantic States ) rather than ( Mid Atlantic ) States, then.

I keep thinking of Cary Grant, who was described as having a
Mid-Atlantic accent.

James J. Gavan

2006-09-12, 6:55 pm

Howard Brazee wrote:
> On 12 Sep 2006 11:49:30 -0700, "Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I keep thinking of Cary Grant, who was described as having a
> Mid-Atlantic accent.

Ahhh ! But that is subtlety different. Remember Tony Curtis, (Oops.
Bernie Schwartz), in 'Some Like it Hot', doing his take-off of Archibald
Leech - "Judy, Judy, Judy !".

My favourite name change, Stewart Granger, (known to his friends as
Jimmy), couldn't use his legal name for acting, James Stewart, for
obvious reasons.

Jimmy

Pete Dashwood

2006-09-12, 6:55 pm

"Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net> wrote in message
news:sk4eg2555q0rvvitsc75s05f16r0h9mkhn@
4ax.com...
> On 12 Sep 2006 11:49:30 -0700, "Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
> I keep thinking of Cary Grant, who was described as having a
> Mid-Atlantic accent.

Yep, me too.

Once, on a long flight, an American asked politely what my accent was. My
wife responded, before I could say anything: "It's mid-Atlantic Antipodean."
As we were flying over the Atlantic at the time, it seemed somehow
appropriate... :-)

Pete

Alistair

2006-09-13, 6:55 pm

James J. Gavan wrote:
> Howard Brazee wrote:
>
> Ahhh ! But that is subtlety different. Remember Tony Curtis, (Oops.
> Bernie Schwartz), in 'Some Like it Hot', doing his take-off of Archibald
> Leech - "Judy, Judy, Judy !".
>
> My favourite name change, Stewart Granger, (known to his friends as
> Jimmy), couldn't use his legal name for acting, James Stewart, for
> obvious reasons.
>
> Jimmy

And, for obvious reasons, I can not use my real name for writing.

Alligator Maculae.

john@wexfordpress.com

2006-09-18, 6:55 pm

James J. Gavan wrote:
> john@wexfordpress.com wrote:
>
> Hey something in the Bahamas - nice if you made visits there :-)
>
> Curious - what was the Shack's 6000. Did it precede the TRS Models,
> Color Computer, Model II, 16 etc., or was it something that came out
> after them ? As for RM - possibly Version 1.0 something ?
>
> Seriously, I would have thought an American would have referred to the
> East Coast seaboard rather than Mid-Atlantic.
>
> Jimmy

In terms of basic enclosure, there was the Model II, then the Model 16,
then the Model 6000,
then nothing. The 6000 still had an 8 inch floppy, perhaps two, and a
1.5 MB hard drive.

I have a printout that says RM 2.10. It is dated 1987. Stlll waiting
for Open Cobol to catch up to the DISPLAY and ACCEPT verbs of that
version of COBOL.

John Culleton,

john@wexfordpress.com

2006-09-18, 6:55 pm

Alistair wrote:
> James J. Gavan wrote:
>
> And, for obvious reasons, I can not use my real name for writing.
>
> Alligator Maculae.

Let me take this thread in a bold new direction. Can anyone suggest
what the salary scale for a mainframe COBOL programmer would be in
e.g., New Jersey, Delaware, Pennsylvania, Maryland, DC, Virginia or
thereabouts? I am just looking to use it as a comparison figure.

I am told that Cary Grant never said in a film "Judy, Judy, Judy." But
if he had, it would not impact my question.

I am hoping to avoid dealing with the Bureau of Labor Statistics,
Department of Labor, who will give me a three-foot high stack of
printout in answer to my simple query. I am hoping y'all can do better
faster and with less sturm und drang. But perhaps I hope in vain.

John Culleton

James J. Gavan

2006-09-18, 9:55 pm

john@wexfordpress.com wrote:
> Alistair wrote:
>
>
>
> Let me take this thread in a bold new direction. Can anyone suggest
> what the salary scale for a mainframe COBOL programmer would be in
> e.g., New Jersey, Delaware, Pennsylvania, Maryland, DC, Virginia or
> thereabouts? I am just looking to use it as a comparison figure.
>
> I am told that Cary Grant never said in a film "Judy, Judy, Judy." But
> if he had, it would not impact my question.
>
> I am hoping to avoid dealing with the Bureau of Labor Statistics,
> Department of Labor, who will give me a three-foot high stack of
> printout in answer to my simple query. I am hoping y'all can do better
> faster and with less sturm und drang. But perhaps I hope in vain.
>
> John Culleton
>

Obviously can't help you on the salaries, good luck on your search.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Some Like It Hot (1959) :-

Not surprised you got the answer that Cary didn't say it. It was Tony
taking the mickey out of Cary's Trans-Atlantic accent.

Firstly Plot Outline: When two musicians witness a mob hit, they flee
the state in an all female band disguised as women, but further
complications set in. Deservedly nominated as one of the funniest movies
ever made. So most of the time they are dressed as 'goils', Jack Lemmon
being partnered with a real millionaire, Joe E. Brown and Tony Curtis
when in male attire, pretends to be a millionaire when lusting after
Marilyn Monroe.

Memorable Quotes :-

Well I was hoping, like Casablanca, there would be a fairly detailed
script - this is the best I can come up with re Cary Grant :-

(Jerry = Jack Lemmon and Joe = Tony Curtis)
When smooching Marilyn Monroe, Tony is dressed Grant-style, (an English
toff), white slacks, blazer and a sailing cap :-

Jerry: [Joe used a "Cary Grant" voice when posing as a millionaire] What
are you trying to do to that poor girl, putting on a millionaire act?
And, where did you get that phony accent? Nobody "talks loike thet"!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jimmy

john@wexfordpress.com

2006-09-20, 7:55 am

docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
> In article <orCNg.547282$IK3.132543@pd7tw1no>,
> James J. Gavan <jgavandeletethis@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
> As I recall being taught, e'er-so-long ago - and my memory is, admittedly,
> porous - the East Coast seaboard states can be divided into the New
> England (Maine, Massachusetts, Rhode Island and Connecticut), Mid-Atlantic
> (New York, New Jersey, Delaware and Virginia) and Southern (North
> Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia and Florida) regions... or something
> like that.
>
> DD
You left out Maryland and the District of Columbia. Anyone know what
mainframe programmers make in the Mid-Atlantic states? Or in the
Midwest? or anywhere in the lower 48? It is not a trick question.

2006-09-20, 7:55 am

In article <1158759867.610391.144680@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
<john@wexfordpress.com> wrote:
>
>docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>You left out Maryland and the District of Columbia.

I *told* you that my memory was porous... and the District of Columbia
isn't a state.

>Anyone know what
>mainframe programmers make in the Mid-Atlantic states? Or in the
>Midwest? or anywhere in the lower 48? It is not a trick question.

I know that a Federal Agency is looking to take on a few folks to deal, in
part, with mainframe programming; I do not know what skills or experiences
the job-postings contain but they are offering a grade of GS12, which,
according to http://www.opm.gov/oca/06tables/txt/gstbls.txt , becomes
pay-scale 2006-DCB (Incorporating 2.10% General Schedule Increase and a
Locality Payment of 17.50%) and a range of US$65,048 - US$84,559.

DD

Howard Brazee

2006-09-20, 6:55 pm

On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 13:54:42 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf@panix.com () wrote:

>I *told* you that my memory was porous... and the District of Columbia
>isn't a state.

By one definition of the word, at least.

MikeH

2006-09-20, 6:55 pm

You also left out the (US) state with the smallest coastline (often listed
as 17 miles) - New Hampshire.

Live Free or Die.

Mike

<docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:eerh71$qmb$1@reader1.panix.com...
> In article <1158759867.610391.144680@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
> <john@wexfordpress.com> wrote:
>
> I *told* you that my memory was porous... and the District of Columbia
> isn't a state.
>
>
> I know that a Federal Agency is looking to take on a few folks to deal, in
> part, with mainframe programming; I do not know what skills or experiences
> the job-postings contain but they are offering a grade of GS12, which,
> according to http://www.opm.gov/oca/06tables/txt/gstbls.txt , becomes
> pay-scale 2006-DCB (Incorporating 2.10% General Schedule Increase and a
> Locality Payment of 17.50%) and a range of US$65,048 - US$84,559.
>
> DD
>

2006-09-21, 3:55 am

In article < mYadnTCqvK9KSIzYnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@comcast
.com>,
MikeH <someone@nowhere.com> wrote:
>You also left out the (US) state with the smallest coastline (often listed
>as 17 miles) - New Hampshire.
>
>Live Free or Die.

Well, since - as extrapolated from 'The Devil and Dan'l Webster' - God
tore down His sign indicating that He made men there I figured that...
uhhhh... forgot another'n, too.

DD

[top post, nothing more below]

><docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:eerh71$qmb$1@reader1.panix.com...
>
>

Rick Smith

2006-09-21, 7:55 am

<docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:ee6tgp$dkv$1@reader2.panix.com...
> In article <orCNg.547282$IK3.132543@pd7tw1no>,
> James J. Gavan <jgavandeletethis@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
> As I recall being taught, e'er-so-long ago - and my memory is, admittedly,
> porous - the East Coast seaboard states can be divided into the New
> England (Maine, Massachusetts, Rhode Island and Connecticut), Mid-Atlantic
> (New York, New Jersey, Delaware and Virginia) and Southern (North
> Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia and Florida) regions... or something
> like that.

[This response is given for those who are truly serious
about trivia.]

The following is from a 1977 Almanac. CL refers to
coastline and SL refers to shoreline, either of which
might qualify as seaboard. The source is given as
NOAA, April 1, 1961, and distance is given in
statute miles.

CL SL State
0 618 Connecticut
28 381 Delaware
580 3331 Florida
100 2344 Georgia
228 3478 Maine
31 3190 Maryland
192 1519 Massachusetts
13 131 New Hampshire
130 1792 New Jersey
127 1850 New York
301 3375 North Carolina
0 89 Pennsylvania
40 384 Rhode Island
187 2876 South Carolina
112 3315 Virginia

The absence of Maryland and New Hampshire, from
the earlier classification, was elsewhere noted; but there
remains the problem of how to classify Connecticut and
Pennsylvania. Neither state has Atlantic coastline, but
both have Atlantic shoreline, thus these states should be
included or omitted together, ... or so it seems.

[For the insanely curious, Connecticut's shoreline is on the
Long Island Sound and Pennsylvania's shoreline is on the
Delaware river, to the point where it narrows to 100 feet
and which feeds into the Atlantic Ocean.]

Howard Brazee

2006-09-21, 7:55 am

X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 4.0/32.1071
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On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 07:39:19 -0400, "Rick Smith" <ricksmith@mfi.net>
wrote:

>Neither state has Atlantic coastline, but
>both have Atlantic shoreline, thus these states should be
>included or omitted together, ... or so it seems.

After checking a few dictionaries - I haven't discovered a difference
between the two words to account for this anomaly.

Rick Smith

2006-09-21, 6:55 pm

"Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net> wrote in message
news:bq45h2t41fngt01qs4co51b2tlsmunirle@
4ax.com...
> On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 07:39:19 -0400, "Rick Smith" <ricksmith@mfi.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> After checking a few dictionaries - I haven't discovered a difference
> between the two words to account for this anomaly.

Mr Brazee, the definitions for 'coastline' and
'shoreline' are those used by NOAA for their
purposes and may not necessarily have a clear
or obvious relationship to common sources, such
as dictionaries.

As I understand it, 'coastline' is a related to the
boundary of a state to what NOAA considers the
"official" boundary of the Atlantic Ocean.and
'shoreline' is related to "tidal waters" of the Atlantic
Ocean. It seems reasonable that ocean tides will
affect more of the 'seaboard' than just the
boundaries.

Pete Dashwood

2006-09-21, 6:55 pm

X-Trace: individual.net JIrj+rAEq/AMDClj6A9T9gmfEzWRU12DM/ZkqaPRRYZlm8fNmq
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Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com comp.lang.cobol:160973

Interesting, Rick. Can you explain the difference between Coast line and
Shore line, please?

They seem synonomous to me.

Pete.

TOP POST - nothing new below.

"Rick Smith" <ricksmith@mfi.net> wrote in message
news:12h4uer8hjrpc8f@corp.supernews.com...
>
> <docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:ee6tgp$dkv$1@reader2.panix.com...
>
> [This response is given for those who are truly serious
> about trivia.]
>
> The following is from a 1977 Almanac. CL refers to
> coastline and SL refers to shoreline, either of which
> might qualify as seaboard. The source is given as
> NOAA, April 1, 1961, and distance is given in
> statute miles.
>
> CL SL State
> 0 618 Connecticut
> 28 381 Delaware
> 580 3331 Florida
> 100 2344 Georgia
> 228 3478 Maine
> 31 3190 Maryland
> 192 1519 Massachusetts
> 13 131 New Hampshire
> 130 1792 New Jersey
> 127 1850 New York
> 301 3375 North Carolina
> 0 89 Pennsylvania
> 40 384 Rhode Island
> 187 2876 South Carolina
> 112 3315 Virginia
>
> The absence of Maryland and New Hampshire, from
> the earlier classification, was elsewhere noted; but there
> remains the problem of how to classify Connecticut and
> Pennsylvania. Neither state has Atlantic coastline, but
> both have Atlantic shoreline, thus these states should be
> included or omitted together, ... or so it seems.
>
> [For the insanely curious, Connecticut's shoreline is on the
> Long Island Sound and Pennsylvania's shoreline is on the
> Delaware river, to the point where it narrows to 100 feet
> and which feeds into the Atlantic Ocean.]
>
>
>

Pete Dashwood

2006-09-21, 6:55 pm

OK, that helped.

Now, what does NOAA stand for and what is their function, please?

Pete.

TOP POST - nothing new below.

"Rick Smith" <ricksmith@mfi.net> wrote in message
news:12h5bcfptflrccb@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net> wrote in message
> news:bq45h2t41fngt01qs4co51b2tlsmunirle@
4ax.com...
>
> Mr Brazee, the definitions for 'coastline' and
> 'shoreline' are those used by NOAA for their
> purposes and may not necessarily have a clear
> or obvious relationship to common sources, such
> as dictionaries.
>
> As I understand it, 'coastline' is a related to the
> boundary of a state to what NOAA considers the
> "official" boundary of the Atlantic Ocean.and
> 'shoreline' is related to "tidal waters" of the Atlantic
> Ocean. It seems reasonable that ocean tides will
> affect more of the 'seaboard' than just the
> boundaries.
>
>
>

Rick Smith

2006-09-21, 6:55 pm

"Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:4ngikuFad87kU1@individual.net...
> OK, that helped.
>
> Now, what does NOAA stand for and what is their function, please?

National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration.

Relying on my belief that I actually understand their
function; tides, hurricanes, and the like. They are part of
the US Department of Commerce and work from the
shoreline (certain navigable waters) out into the oceans.
Much of their work is to provide information for
shipping interests. NOAA includes the National
Hurricane Center.

Gotta keep those oil supertankers and other ships
off the reefs, shoals, and sandbars and away from the
worst weather, don't you know!

[Weather within the external boundaries of the US is
reported and forecast by the National Weather Service.]

Pete Dashwood

2006-09-22, 7:55 am

Thanks.

Pete.

TOP POST - nothing new below.

"Rick Smith" <ricksmith@mfi.net> wrote in message
news:12h699kn7l51k25@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:4ngikuFad87kU1@individual.net...
>
> National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration.
>
> Relying on my belief that I actually understand their
> function; tides, hurricanes, and the like. They are part of
> the US Department of Commerce and work from the
> shoreline (certain navigable waters) out into the oceans.
> Much of their work is to provide information for
> shipping interests. NOAA includes the National
> Hurricane Center.
>
> Gotta keep those oil supertankers and other ships
> off the reefs, shoals, and sandbars and away from the
> worst weather, don't you know!
>
> [Weather within the external boundaries of the US is
> reported and forecast by the National Weather Service.]
>
>
>

Alistair

2006-09-22, 6:55 pm

Pete Dashwood wrote:
> Interesting, Rick. Can you explain the difference between Coast line and
> Shore line, please?
>
> They seem synonomous to me.
>
> Pete.
>

Remembering back to ye goldene dayse of yore when, as a whelp, I were
but training as a marine biologist.....

Coast line, shore line, etc. are probably maleable terms meaning
precisely what you want it to mean. When drawing maps of the coast, a
putatively dry line is placed on maps indicating the high tide boundary
between land and sea. This boundary varies with the tides (spring,
neap, normal) and, temporarily, with onshore and offshore winds. BTW,
my degree covered the splash zone as well as true littoral (high tide
down to permanently inundated) and marine zones.

Howard Brazee

2006-09-22, 6:55 pm

On 22 Sep 2006 09:05:59 -0700, "Alistair"
<alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>Remembering back to ye goldene dayse of yore when, as a whelp, I were
>but training as a marine biologist.....
>
>Coast line, shore line, etc. are probably maleable terms meaning
>precisely what you want it to mean. When drawing maps of the coast, a
>putatively dry line is placed on maps indicating the high tide boundary
>between land and sea. This boundary varies with the tides (spring,
>neap, normal) and, temporarily, with onshore and offshore winds. BTW,
>my degree covered the splash zone as well as true littoral (high tide
>down to permanently inundated) and marine zones.

Of course, if you walk the beach along a rugged coast, you won't be
taking a path - as the crow flies.

Donald Tees

2006-09-22, 6:55 pm

Alistair wrote:
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
> Remembering back to ye goldene dayse of yore when, as a whelp, I were
> but training as a marine biologist.....
>
> Coast line, shore line, etc. are probably maleable terms meaning
> precisely what you want it to mean. When drawing maps of the coast, a
> putatively dry line is placed on maps indicating the high tide boundary
> between land and sea. This boundary varies with the tides (spring,
> neap, normal) and, temporarily, with onshore and offshore winds. BTW,
> my degree covered the splash zone as well as true littoral (high tide
> down to permanently inundated) and marine zones.
>

By my dictionary, a Coast denotes a political border, whereas a shore
does not. Do not know if that is germaine or not.

Donald

Rick Smith

2006-09-22, 6:55 pm

"Donald Tees" <donald_tees@donald-tees.ca> wrote in message
news:ef188r$dgg$1@emma.aioe.org...
[snip]
> By my dictionary, a Coast denotes a political border, whereas a shore
> does not. Do not know if that is germaine or not.

It may be germane.

From < http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/coast >,
1. the land next to the sea; seashore: the rocky coast of Maine.
5. Obsolete. the boundary or border of a country.

And < http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/coastline >,
1. the outline or contour of a coast; shoreline.

And < http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/shoreline >,
the line where shore and water meet.

The derivation of 'coastline' may have been through the
'boundary or border of a country', while 'shoreline' is a
general word that applies without reference to borders.

Pete Dashwood

2006-09-22, 6:55 pm

"Alistair" <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1158941158.964939.167090@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
> Remembering back to ye goldene dayse of yore when, as a whelp, I were
> but training as a marine biologist.....
>
> Coast line, shore line, etc. are probably maleable terms meaning
> precisely what you want it to mean. When drawing maps of the coast, a
> putatively dry line is placed on maps indicating the high tide boundary
> between land and sea. This boundary varies with the tides (spring,
> neap, normal) and, temporarily, with onshore and offshore winds. BTW,
> my degree covered the splash zone as well as true littoral (high tide
> down to permanently inundated) and marine zones.
>
You would feel right at home here, Alistair. The Bay of Plenty Polytechnic
is a Centre of Excellence for Marine Biology and has associated programs
going on with the University of New Zealand, through the Auckland and
Waikato campuses. One of my friends is a tutor and coach for the Marine
Studies course and I never cease to be amazed at the really

and
interesting stuff these students get to do. If I had my time again I'd sign
up for this in a heartbeat... :-)

They recently built an artificial reef that has improved the surfing on one
of our popular beaches, and they are now looking to extend it. Of course,
the reef is useful for many aspects of the course. I understand the whole
syllabus is being reviewed at the moment and may be brought in line with the
courses offered at Waikato and Auckland. I think it would be a pity, but
there is a need for 'standardization' (where have we heard that before...
:-)) and when things get standardized they tend to be dragged down to the
LCD rather than raised to the HCF.

The environment here is perfect for Marine studies (plentiful rocky, sandy,
ocean, and harbour beaches, with abundant marine fauna and flora), and the
BOP Poly campus is an ideal place for learning. The students do field trips
to Pacific island paradises as a matter of course...Education has certainly
changed over the years...:-)

Pete.

Pete Dashwood

2006-09-22, 6:55 pm

"Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net> wrote in message
news:1638h25dn3a4ku6teoc1ukqvcoh0stcr3q@
4ax.com...
> On 22 Sep 2006 09:05:59 -0700, "Alistair"
> <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> Of course, if you walk the beach along a rugged coast, you won't be
> taking a path - as the crow flies.

Maybe if the crow had been eating fermented berries...?

Pete.

Pete Dashwood

2006-09-22, 6:55 pm

"Donald Tees" <donald_tees@donald-tees.ca> wrote in message
news:ef188r$dgg$1@emma.aioe.org...
> Alistair wrote:
>
> By my dictionary, a Coast denotes a political border, whereas a shore
> does not. Do not know if that is germaine or not.

Wasn't she the author of "The female Eunech"? Loud mouthed Aussie feminist
if I recall... But I'm not shore... :-)

Pete.

Pete Dashwood

2006-09-22, 6:55 pm

"Rick Smith" <ricksmith@mfi.net> wrote in message
news:12h8gf0l7ke4ffc@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Donald Tees" <donald_tees@donald-tees.ca> wrote in message
> news:ef188r$dgg$1@emma.aioe.org...
> [snip]
>
> It may be germane.
>
> From < http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/coast >,
> 1. the land next to the sea; seashore: the rocky coast of Maine.
> 5. Obsolete. the boundary or border of a country.
>
> And < http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/coastline >,
> 1. the outline or contour of a coast; shoreline.
>
> And < http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/shoreline >,
> the line where shore and water meet.
>
> The derivation of 'coastline' may have been through the
> 'boundary or border of a country', while 'shoreline' is a
> general word that applies without reference to borders.
>
That's an interesting distinction.

Could we conclude that the Coastline represents political boundaries, and
the Shoreline represents geological ones?

(I'm looking for something simple I can easily remember here... :-))

Pete.

Rick Smith

2006-09-22, 6:55 pm

"Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:4nj9slFap0q4U1@individual.net...
>
> "Rick Smith" <ricksmith@mfi.net> wrote in message
> news:12h8gf0l7ke4ffc@corp.supernews.com...
> That's an interesting distinction.
>
> Could we conclude that the Coastline represents political boundaries, and
> the Shoreline represents geological ones?

I think not. A coastline is a shoreline; but the reverse
is not always true; that is, both are geological. And,
the political boundaries of a country extend outward
into the ocean for quite some distance: I seem to recall
25 miles from low tide for international waters; but
certain "rights" (fishing, mineral, etc.) extend to the edge
of the continental shelf.

> (I'm looking for something simple I can easily remember here... :-))

This edited usage from
< http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/shore >
might help.
-----
Shore, ... , coast refer to an edge of land abutting
on an ocean, lake, or other large body of water.
Shore is the general word: The ship reached shore.
.... Coast applies only to land along an ocean: the
Pacific coast.
-----

Richard

2006-09-22, 9:55 pm

Pete Dashwood wrote:

> The students do field trips
> to Pacific island paradises as a matter of course...

... such as White Island.

(flame prrof suit mandatory).

Donald Tees

2006-09-23, 7:55 am

Pete Dashwood wrote:
> "Rick Smith" <ricksmith@mfi.net> wrote in message
> news:12h8gf0l7ke4ffc@corp.supernews.com...
> That's an interesting distinction.
>
> Could we conclude that the Coastline represents political boundaries, and
> the Shoreline represents geological ones?
>
> (I'm looking for something simple I can easily remember here... :-))
>
> Pete.
>
>

Well, I've never heard of a shore-guard for defending them ...

Donald

Donald Tees

2006-09-23, 7:55 am

Pete Dashwood wrote:
> "Donald Tees" <donald_tees@donald-tees.ca> wrote in message
> news:ef188r$dgg$1@emma.aioe.org...
>
> Wasn't she the author of "The female Eunech"? Loud mouthed Aussie feminist
> if I recall... But I'm not shore... :-)
>
> Pete.
>
>

I remember her as a real beach, couldn't sand the woman.

Donald

Alistair

2006-09-24, 6:55 pm

Pete Dashwood wrote:
> "Alistair" <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1158941158.964939.167090@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> You would feel right at home here, Alistair. The Bay of Plenty Polytechnic
> is a Centre of Excellence for Marine Biology and has associated programs
> going on with the University of New Zealand, through the Auckland and
> Waikato campuses. One of my friends is a tutor and coach for the Marine
> Studies course and I never cease to be amazed at the really

and
> interesting stuff these students get to do. If I had my time again I'd sign
> up for this in a heartbeat... :-)
>
> They recently built an artificial reef that has improved the surfing on one
> of our popular beaches, and they are now looking to extend it. Of course,
> the reef is useful for many aspects of the course. I understand the whole
> syllabus is being reviewed at the moment and may be brought in line with the
> courses offered at Waikato and Auckland. I think it would be a pity, but
> there is a need for 'standardization' (where have we heard that before...
> :-)) and when things get standardized they tend to be dragged down to the
> LCD rather than raised to the HCF.
>
> The environment here is perfect for Marine studies (plentiful rocky, sandy,
> ocean, and harbour beaches, with abundant marine fauna and flora), and the
> BOP Poly campus is an ideal place for learning. The students do field trips
> to Pacific island paradises as a matter of course...Education has certainly
> changed over the years...:-)
>
> Pete.

Seems like you live in Paradise. I watched all three parts of the Lord
of the Rings yesterday, fantastic scenery. And such clean beaches.
However, I do prefer rock pools.

My field trips were to Scotland (bad beer) and Eire (Guinness, lots
of). No island paradises.

I can recommend a degree (or courses) in Marine Biology especially if
you scuba dive.

Alistair

2006-09-24, 6:55 pm

Pete Dashwood

2006-09-25, 7:55 am

"Donald Tees" <donald_tees@donald-tees.ca> wrote in message
news:ef3dkq$tqq$1@emma.aioe.org...
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
> I remember her as a real beach, couldn't sand the woman.
>
:-) Nice one Donald...

Many years ago a buddy of mine and I picked up a couple of Australian girls
who were touring NZ and we decided to show them a good time.We drove them to
Rotorua where we all booked into a motel.

During the drive to Rotorua, one of them was chattering on about this beach
(back home in Oz) where there were many seals. (We were driving in a truck,
it was noisy, and I was only half listening.) Later on my friend and I were
talking about the drive with them and I said: "I think she's into nature.
She was rabbitting on about this sealy beach back home..." My friend fell
about, and explained she was discussing an acquaintance who was a 'sealy
beach' ...(silly XXXXX).

At that time I hadn't been to Australia and I found the accent really hard
to get. When we were looking for a motel one of the girls turned down what
looked like a pretty good place because "...it hasn't got a pearl." I
figured she was looking for one with a souvenir shop where she could buy a
pearl for her mother back in Oz. "What kind of pearl are you looking for?" I
asked, trying to be helpful...
"A swemming pearl, of course!" came the reply...

Ah, the awful truth
that you can't reveal to the innocent youth
except to say
it isn't worth a dime...

Happy times.

Pete.

and

> Donald

Pete Dashwood

2006-09-25, 7:55 am

"Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1158975068.484540.227590@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
>
> ... such as White Island.
>
> (flame prrof suit mandatory).
>
No... :-)

Rarotonga, Fiji, and sometimes, NewCaledonia.

Actually, I went to White Island last December (for overeas readers, it is
an active volcano about 20 miles off shore in the Eastern Bay of Plenty. In
1931 (I think...not sure) a party of men who were working in a sulphur
mining venture there were killed, when they were engulfed in boiling mud
during the night. Today it is privately owned and is a wildlife sanctuary
(gannets, mainly) and tourist attraction. All landings need a permit and
nobody stays there permanently....) when I had a friend from England staying
with me. She was incredibly impressed and so was I. (She videoed the whole
thing and it was amazing.) We went by helicopter from Whakatane and landed
in the actual crater (after the photo opportuity of a full circuit around
the island). Although they didn't give us flameproof suits they did give us
gas masks (I thought it was just a gesture towards Health and Safety, but I
was very glad of it a couple of times during the walking tour.) The ground
is hot so you need sensible shoes, and you tend not to stray off the path
:-). I kept calculating the distance from where we were back to the
helicopter and assessing how quickly the pilot could get it airborne if
things had gotten out of hand...:-) It's that kind of place. Eeerie,
frightening, yet unbelievably beautiful, and pretty awesome in the true
sense of the word.

Ths is one of the best value tours you can do in the Bay. It has everything
you normally need to go to several places to see, all in one
place...geysers, raw sulphur crystallizing in the sun, boiling mud,
terraces, hot streams, fumaroles, and regularly erupting blowholes. The
place is continually active and every so often it erupts and spews mainly
ash and pumice into the ocean.There is one point where a stream of molten
sulphur and minerals flows into the ocean and the effect is really
beautiful. It boils and bubbles with great plumes of steam and the blue
ocean looks green from the yellow of the sulphur. Outstanding.

But I'm not sure that Marine Studies go there; I'll check and find out...
:-)

Pete.

Pete Dashwood

2006-09-25, 7:55 am

"Alistair" <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1159126161.301579.149250@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
> Seems like you live in Paradise. I watched all three parts of the Lord
> of the Rings yesterday, fantastic scenery.
I'm impressed! That's around 9 hours... we are planning a day here with wine
and pizza breaks to do exactly that. I have more takers than I expected but
I think some of them are just into wine :-)

If you remember part one, where Gandalf comes to the Shire for Bilbo's 111th
birthday, there is a beautiful scene with Bilbo and Gandalf sitting outside
Bag End as the sun sets, smoking their pipes and blowing smoke rings. I have
sat in that exact spot and can reveal that "The Shire" is the Waikato
valley, and "Hobbiton" is situated just outside the little town of Matamata.
These locations are 40 minutes drive from where I'm writing this. It is,
indeed, beautiful country.

LOTR fans from all over the world come to visit. (The tour is interesting
and amusing and lasts about 3 - 4 hours. It is really good value.)

> And such clean beaches.

There is little heavy industry here and the average Kiwi is fairly
environment conscious (maybe not so much in the cities, hard to say)... I
know a beach about 20 minutes drive from here where you could take a picnic,
and walk for a couple of hours without seeing another human being; coming
back, all you would see are your own footprints...

> However, I do prefer rock pools.
>
> My field trips were to Scotland (bad beer)

"Man... this beer is so bad, I'll be glad when I've had enough..." :-)

and Eire (Guinness, lots
> of).

I remember Guinness and oysters with brown bread and fresh Irish butter at a
little village in the South. (Don't remember much else...including the name
of the village... :-)

No island paradises.
>
I guess paradise is really what you make it. Although I love NZ
passionately, it would be quite wrong to pretend it is paradise; we have our
problems here just like everywhere else. But if you try hard, and keep the
right atttitude you can get glimpses of what MIGHT be paradise,
occasionally... :-) It happens often enough to encourage me that this place
is worth saving (and many others agree thank goodness...).

> I can recommend a degree (or courses) in Marine Biology especially if
> you scuba dive.
>
I've only done it twice. The second time I had a really bad experience (it
was in Australia and should have been fabulous; it wasn't...people nearly
died...) and I've never done it since. I have several friends who do it
regularly and they reckon there is some beautiful diving in the Bay. I like
snorkelling and I enjoy swimming and the occasional bit of surfing, although
these days I find it harder and harder to stay on a board, and end up with a
boogie board, catching the inner waves...

I introduced another English friend to these delights on one of our off the
track surf beaches. He missed a few waves and was getting a bit discouraged.
Finally, he caught one and got a 50 metre ride to be tumbled onto sand with
his boogie board trying to get out on the backwash. He sat there stunned,
grinning from ear to ear. I came over to see he was OK and he just looked at
me and said: "Pete, I never knew... I never knew...". He was at that beach
almost every day for the remainder of his stay. :-)

Pete.

Howard Brazee

2006-09-25, 6:55 pm

On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 11:28:17 +1200, "Pete Dashwood"
<dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:

>That's an interesting distinction.
>
>Could we conclude that the Coastline represents political boundaries, and
>the Shoreline represents geological ones?

But why do states that have one not have the other? Maybe it has to
do with the political boundary that is out in the ocean, where they
can overlap when there is a bend in the place where the land meets the
water.

This is similar to the discussion of "country" vs "nation". In most
of the world, these words are synonyms. But in the UK/GB, these are
not (I always forget which is which).

Alistair

2006-09-25, 6:55 pm

Pete Dashwood wrote:
> I'm impressed! That's around 9 hours... we are planning a day here with wine
> and pizza breaks to do exactly that. I have more takers than I expected but
> I think some of them are just into wine :-)
>

Better wine than beer (too many pee-breaks would spoil the film). Make
sure that you have surround sound (5.1 or something like that) for max
effect, especially in the battle scenes. I remember the books as being
somewhat tedious (especially when JRRT waxed large on obscure aspects
of poetry and language) but the films are much better. I loved the
dwarf:elf asides.

Howard Brazee

2006-09-25, 6:55 pm

On 25 Sep 2006 10:01:16 -0700, "Alistair"
<alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>Better wine than beer (too many pee-breaks would spoil the film). Make
>sure that you have surround sound (5.1 or something like that) for max
>effect, especially in the battle scenes. I remember the books as being
>somewhat tedious

You probably didn't have 5.1 or something like that.

>(especially when JRRT waxed large on obscure aspects
>of poetry and language) but the films are much better. I loved the
>dwarf:elf asides.

2006-09-26, 3:55 am

In article <1159203676.838741.297800@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:

[snip]

>I loved the
>dwarf:elf asides.

A fellow I know owns a couple of Russian Blue cats... quiet, sl

,
inquisitive creatures who are always amazed by the less-graceful manners
of my pug, Killer. One day I was talking to him and Killer was on my
lap... she wasn't sleeping, just... sniffing and looking about. Both
cats were on the floor on the other side of the small room, trying to
figure out what the source of the sound... could it be that an actual
*animal* was doing that? I was reminded of a scene in one of those films,
the crew has entered a forest and is suddenly surrounded by a crew of
wood-elves, arrows nocked into their bows...

.... and the party's leader talks to the crew's Elf-in-Residence, pointing
to the dwarf and saying 'This one we could shoot in the dark just by his
breathing.'

DD

Alistair

2006-09-26, 6:55 pm

docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
> In article <1159203676.838741.297800@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
> A fellow I know owns a couple of Russian Blue cats... quiet, sl

,
> inquisitive creatures who are always amazed by the less-graceful manners
> of my pug, Killer. One day I was talking to him and Killer was on my
> lap... she wasn't sleeping, just... sniffing and looking about. Both
> cats were on the floor on the other side of the small room, trying to
> figure out what the source of the sound... could it be that an actual
> *animal* was doing that? I was reminded of a scene in one of those films,
> the crew has entered a forest and is suddenly surrounded by a crew of
> wood-elves, arrows nocked into their bows...
>
> ... and the party's leader talks to the crew's Elf-in-Residence, pointing
> to the dwarf and saying 'This one we could shoot in the dark just by his
> breathing.'
>
> DD

Yeh, but the dwarf had just said something about how no-one was able to
sneak up on him because his vision and sense of smell were so good.
Obviously, "good" elves don't use scented deodorants/antiperspirants.
Would that also be the same for dark elves? I remember reading
somewhere that the vietcong could always tell when American soldiers
were nearby because of the smell (sweat, tobacco and soap).

2006-09-26, 6:55 pm

In article <1159303589.338817.193090@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>docdwarf@panix.com wrote:

[snip]
[color=darkred]
>
>Yeh, but the dwarf had just said something about how no-one was able to
>sneak up on him because his vision and sense of smell were so good.

It appears, Mr Maclean, that you've retained far more of this than I...
but my memory is, admittedly, porous.

>Obviously, "good" elves don't use scented deodorants/antiperspirants.

Obviously good 'n ganky ones, sure!

>Would that also be the same for dark elves? I remember reading
>somewhere that the vietcong could always tell when American soldiers
>were nearby because of the smell (sweat, tobacco and soap).

Sweat I can understand (more beef in the diet might lead to more butyrins
excreted in perspiration), soap likewise... but tobacco? As I recall
folks in that part of the world enjoy a smoke every now and then as well.

DD

Pete Dashwood

2006-09-26, 6:55 pm

"Alistair" <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1159203676.838741.297800@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
> Better wine than beer (too many pee-breaks would spoil the film). Make
> sure that you have surround sound (5.1 or something like that) for max
> effect, especially in the battle scenes. I remember the books as being
> somewhat tedious (especially when JRRT waxed large on obscure aspects
> of poetry and language) but the films are much better. I loved the
> dwarf:elf asides.
>
I have surround sound (5.1) and it is very impressive. Sometimes, when kids
are visiting (they tend to lay on the floor watching a movie), I put on
'Godzilla'... each time the creature takes a step the house shakes and the
kids all squeal... :-)

Dialogue in LOTR (films) is very well written.

Pete.

Pete Dashwood

2006-09-26, 6:55 pm

<docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:efarm0$oul$1@reader2.panix.com...
> In article <1159203676.838741.297800@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
> A fellow I know owns a couple of Russian Blue cats... quiet, sl

,
> inquisitive creatures who are always amazed by the less-graceful manners
> of my pug, Killer. One day I was talking to him and Killer was on my
> lap... she wasn't sleeping, just... sniffing and looking about. Both
> cats were on the floor on the other side of the small room, trying to
> figure out what the source of the sound... could it be that an actual
> *animal* was doing that? I was reminded of a scene in one of those films,
> the crew has entered a forest and is suddenly surrounded by a crew of
> wood-elves, arrows nocked into their bows...
>
> ... and the party's leader talks to the crew's Elf-in-Residence, pointing
> to the dwarf and saying 'This one we could shoot in the dark just by his
> breathing.'
>
> DD
Poor old Gimli... :-) he was the butt of a number of Dwarf jokes and even
had to suffer being thrown... :-)

Maybe you should get Killer checked for apnoeia :-)

Pete.

2006-09-27, 7:55 am

In article <4ntur0Fc46phU1@individual.net>,
Pete Dashwood <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>
><docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:efarm0$oul$1@reader2.panix.com...

[snip]

[snip]
[color=darkred]
>Maybe you should get Killer checked for apnoeia :-)

Hmmmmm... a helpful suggestion, Mr Dashwood, but she doesn't seem to
exhibit any difficulties in respiration outside of the normal ones
exhibited by brachycephalic breeds... in fact, were I still sensitive to
her nightly log-sawings I might look forward to the respites might
provide.

(This is similar to the Olde Chestnut of:

'My cousin thinks he's a chicken.'

'Have you taken him to a doctor?'

'We can't, we need the eggs... y'know, a funny thing happened on the way
to the theatre...'

DD

Pete Dashwood

2006-09-27, 7:55 am

<docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:efdstu$ebt$1@reader2.panix.com...
> In article <4ntur0Fc46phU1@individual.net>,
> Pete Dashwood <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
> [snip]
>
>
> Hmmmmm... a helpful suggestion, Mr Dashwood, but she doesn't seem to
> exhibit any difficulties in respiration outside of the normal ones
> exhibited by brachycephalic breeds... in fact, were I still sensitive to
> her nightly log-sawings I might look forward to the respites might
> provide.
>

Greater love hath no pet owner than this; that he adapt to his pet's
snoring... :-)

I met a woman once who claimed that she actually liked her man to snore. It
made her feel secure and protected.
(A very rare breed and worth more than rubies, I should think...)

I hope Killer continues to saw logs for many years yet.

> (This is similar to the Olde Chestnut of:
>
> 'My cousin thinks he's a chicken.'
>
> 'Have you taken him to a doctor?'
>
> 'We can't, we need the eggs... y'know, a funny thing happened on the way
> to the theatre...'
>

(Inspector inspecting lunatic asylum): Why is that man hanging from the
ceiling by a cord?
Supervisor: He thinks he's a light bulb.
Inspector: Get him down at once!
Supervisor: What?! And work in the dark!

Take my wife...

Pete.

Howard Brazee

2006-09-27, 6:55 pm

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 21:47:06 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf@panix.com () wrote:

>Sweat I can understand (more beef in the diet might lead to more butyrins
>excreted in perspiration), soap likewise... but tobacco? As I recall
>folks in that part of the world enjoy a smoke every now and then as well.

But clove cigarettes smell different.

2006-09-27, 6:55 pm

In article <0d9lh2t346bdsdttbutups0u6flmdic9b2@4ax.com>,
Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> wrote:
>On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 21:47:06 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf@panix.com () wrote:
>
>
>But clove cigarettes smell different.

I did not know these were a favored or common product over there.

DD

Alistair

2006-09-27, 6:55 pm

docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
> In article <1159303589.338817.193090@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> Sweat I can understand (more beef in the diet might lead to more butyrins
> excreted in perspiration), soap likewise... but tobacco? As I recall
> folks in that part of the world enjoy a smoke every now and then as well.
>
> DD

Yes but you would only smoke in camp therefore if you could smell smoke
around you it meant that there was a bivouac nearby. I imagine vietcong
tobacco smoke was much more rough and raw so it would have been easy to
identify the nationality of the source (as a non-smoker I would
certainly say that different different tobaccos have different odours
and that would be detectable in a jungle setting).

Alistair

2006-09-27, 6:55 pm

Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
> (Inspector inspecting lunatic asylum): Why is that man hanging from the
> ceiling by a cord?
> Supervisor: He thinks he's a light bulb.
> Inspector: Get him down at once!
> Supervisor: What?! And work in the dark!
>
> Take my wife...
>

No! Please take my wife...

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