Home > Archive > Cobol > August 2006 > Rick Smith - please contact me (off-list)
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Rick Smith - please contact me (off-list)
|
|
| William M. Klein 2006-08-04, 7:55 am |
| Rick,
This w , J4 processed your two documents on:
- Accept/Display (and "line devices")
and
- EXTERNAL for non-01 levels
I need to work with you on the follow-up - but don't know what email ID I should
use. Please contact me off-list.
For the list,
J4 *will* "fix" the issue of referring to "hardware" or "line" devices for
Accept/Display
and
J4 did find a rule in the '85 Standard that ACCIDENTALLY got dropped from the
'02 Standard. This rule explicitly limited EXTERNAL to 01-levels (for
Working-Storage records).
--
Bill Klein
wmklein <at> ix.netcom.com
| |
| Rick Smith 2006-08-04, 6:55 pm |
|
"William M. Klein" <wmklein@nospam.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:MNHAg.300541$vu2.276294@fe05.news.easynews.com...
> Rick,
> This w, J4 processed your two documents on:
>
> - Accept/Display (and "line devices")
> and
> - EXTERNAL for non-01 levels
>
> I need to work with you on the follow-up - but don't know what email ID I
should
> use. Please contact me off-list.
Done.
For the record, I did unblock my e-mail address for one
day after sending the document on the EXTERNAL clause
to Don S. During that 24-hour period, I received one message
from Don S. and 88 unwanted e-mails, or, by extraoplation,
30,000+ unwanted e-mails per year. My previous estimate
was a mere 10,000+.
| |
| James J. Gavan 2006-08-07, 9:55 pm |
| Rick Smith wrote:
> "William M. Klein" <wmklein@nospam.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:MNHAg.300541$vu2.276294@fe05.news.easynews.com...
>
>
> should
>
>
>
> Done.
>
> For the record, I did unblock my e-mail address for one
> day after sending the document on the EXTERNAL clause
> to Don S. During that 24-hour period, I received one message
> from Don S. and 88 unwanted e-mails, or, by extraoplation,
> 30,000+ unwanted e-mails per year. My previous estimate
> was a mere 10,000+.
Rick,
Depending upon what e-mail tool you are using. (I'm using Mozilla's
Thunderbird). I've got the address above for newsgroups and use a
different address for personal e-mail.
I still get the odd 'financial' or 'pharmaceutical' spams creeping
through. But for the most part I've avoided that painful 100 a day.
(Both spam groups probably result from any googling I do).
I certainly agree *we* shouldn't have to protect ourselves - anybody
want to volunteer for a firing squad if we catch the bastards ?
Jimmy
| |
| Rick Smith 2006-08-07, 9:55 pm |
|
"James J. Gavan" <jgavandeletethis@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:RPNBg.335200$IK3.230922@pd7tw1no...
> Rick Smith wrote:
[snip]
[snip][color=darkred]
> I still get the odd 'financial' or 'pharmaceutical' spams creeping
> through. But for the most part I've avoided that painful 100 a day.
> (Both spam groups probably result from any googling I do).
>
> I certainly agree *we* shouldn't have to protect ourselves - anybody
> want to volunteer for a firing squad if we catch the bastards ?
I was in psychotherapy for a 9 year period. During
most of that time (7 years), I could not have a telephone
because phone solicitation caused more stress than I
could handle. As I now understand the circumstances
of that time, I was experiencing an unidentified feeling
of being abused and phone solicitation added an
identified abuse; that is, an abuse I could stop by not
having a telephone. Unwanted e-mail is a similar form
of abuse.
A few ws ago, when I was trying to start work on
the defect report for J4 on the EXTERNAL clause, I
received, in one day, 5 unwanted phone calls. It took
me about two ws to recover. As I thought about
(obsessed over) the problem, it occurred to me that
all such acts are predatory (living by plunder, exploitation,
etc.) through exploitation (utilization for profit, selfish
utilization) of the victims property to carry out the act.
Also, I was able to ascertain that there is no question
of freedom of speech, since, in every case, the predator
is a third party, an interloper (one who thrusts oneself
into the affairs of others).
By "third party" I mean any individual for which the use
of "property" was never intended; that is, I do not have
a residence for the purpose of door-to-door solicitation,
nor do I have a telephone for the purpose of phone
solicitation, nor do I have an e-mail account for the
purpose of e-mail solicitation, virus attacks, etc. These
are particularly troublesome because they tend to
require immediate attention. Junk mail deserves special
consideration since, in the U.S, street addresses are
assigned by government and government is paid to
deliver the junk; thus government is "aiding and abetting"
the predators. By contrast, commercial radio and
television are not predatory since the property involved
is intended to receive commercial broadcasts.
The goal that seems to be most fitting is to simply stop
the predatory practices. To that end, making laws to
prohibit the acts, with increasing force to ensure
compliance, seems appropriate. Should any just not
get the message an extended jail term might be more
fitting than execution.
Perhaps, to some, I may seem too sensitive about this
issue; but it genuinely affects my ability to work and to
do such things as supporting J4 and the COBOL
standard. When I, once again, find some peace, I intend
to submit editorial comments to J4 concerning the
SELECT WHEN clause and the use of plural versus
singular forms in rules, which use seems inconsistent to
me.
| |
| Richard 2006-08-07, 9:55 pm |
|
Rick Smith wrote:
> I
> received, in one day, 5 unwanted phone calls.
I take pride in the fact that I have had an insurance salesman hang up
on me !!
The usual way that I deal with calls is to get them to start on their
spiel and then just put the phone on the desk while I get on with
something useful. If they ask for me by name I sometimes say 'He's in
the garden I'll go and get them for you", put phone on desk, carry on
with work. Sometimes they ring back and apologise for not having
waited long enough and can I get him from the garden. Another long
pointless wait coming up.
My aim is to get on everyone's 'black list'.
| |
| Rick Smith 2006-08-07, 9:55 pm |
|
"Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1155006022.628738.198890@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>
> Rick Smith wrote:
>
[snip][color=darkred]
> My aim is to get on everyone's 'black list'.
Federal (U.S) and state (Florida) law, as I understand it,
require the maintenance of a "Do not call list", for interstate
and intrastate calls, respectively. After I found out about
the law, I began telling callers to add my name to their
"Do not call list". Sometimes I had to inform them that
such a list was required. Call volume dropped quite a bit
and I often go for days without any calls, at all.
But, the trend has been to use automated systems to
provide messages, then, sometimes, at the end of the
message, the "victim" is asked to press a number to be
"removed from the marketing list". Thus, they seem
intent to get around the law by not addressing the
seemingly required "Do not call list". In effect, government
set up a fence to help keep the predators out; but predators
don't always respect fences, though they may learn to
respect a sturdy cage!
| |
| Richard 2006-08-07, 9:55 pm |
|
Rick Smith wrote:
> Federal (U.S) and state (Florida) law, as I understand it,
> require the maintenance of a "Do not call list", for interstate
> and intrastate calls, respectively.
Unfortunately not here.
> But, the trend has been to use automated systems to
> provide messages, then,
They get to listen to my radio for half an hour. Hopefully they have a
voice activated recorder so their tape fills up.
| |
| Arnold Trembley 2006-08-08, 3:55 am |
| I sympathize with you. For me, caller-ID is a Godsend. When the
phone rings, I look at the display to see who's calling. If I don't
recognize the name and/or number, I simply don't answer. After three
rings it silently goes to voice mail. If they leave a message I
delete it. I also signed up for a telephone company service that
requires anonymous callers to identify themselves before they can
leave a voice mail message.
Political and charitable organizations are exempt from the "do not
call" lists. I don't want to hear those either.
With Caller-ID it soon becomes apparent who is a time-waster. They
rarely have a name associated with the number. They often have out of
state area codes, or 8xx area codes. Sometimes the same number will
call every day, but usually the complete inability to reach me leads
to fewer unwanted calls.
The ones that leave messages are usually trying to sell me satellite
TV or debt consolidation loans. Whatever they're selling, I don't
want to hear it.
With kindest regards,
Rick Smith wrote:
> "Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:1155006022.628738.198890@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> [snip]
>
>
>
> Federal (U.S) and state (Florida) law, as I understand it,
> require the maintenance of a "Do not call list", for interstate
> and intrastate calls, respectively. After I found out about
> the law, I began telling callers to add my name to their
> "Do not call list". Sometimes I had to inform them that
> such a list was required. Call volume dropped quite a bit
> and I often go for days without any calls, at all.
>
> But, the trend has been to use automated systems to
> provide messages, then, sometimes, at the end of the
> message, the "victim" is asked to press a number to be
> "removed from the marketing list". Thus, they seem
> intent to get around the law by not addressing the
> seemingly required "Do not call list". In effect, government
> set up a fence to help keep the predators out; but predators
> don't always respect fences, though they may learn to
> respect a sturdy cage!
>
>
>
--
http://arnold.trembley.home.att.net/
| |
| epc8@juno.com 2006-08-08, 6:55 pm |
|
Arnold Trembley wrote:
> I sympathize with you. For me, caller-ID is a Godsend. When the
> phone rings, I look at the display to see who's calling. If I don't
> recognize the name and/or number, I simply don't answer. After three
> rings it silently goes to voice mail. If they leave a message I
> delete it. I also signed up for a telephone company service that
> requires anonymous callers to identify themselves before they can
> leave a voice mail message.
I would be happy to pay for the bullets. I guess Mother Bell's
Pavlovian conditioning worked too well. When the phone rings, I want to
pick it up, thinking that when someone calls it is important. [Long
distance --- my first question used to be "Who died?"]
The only positive aspect to dealing with conscience-less predators is
that they reinforce my belief in a creator who will subject them to
eternal punishment. :-).
Now all we need is an object-oriented COBOL program that will keep the
spam out of my mail-box, the phone solicitors at bay and the clueless
wankers off my doorstep at home and at the office.
| |
| HeyBub 2006-08-08, 6:55 pm |
| Rick Smith wrote:
> Junk mail deserves special
> consideration since, in the U.S, street addresses are
> assigned by government and government is paid to
> deliver the junk; thus government is "aiding and abetting"
> the predators.
Slight correction: In the US, neither street names nor numbers are the
province of any agency of government. Every once in a while, a city will
change the name of a street in honor of some deceased politician, but even
that's rare. The post office and, for that matter, the fire department, have
to work with the names and numbers as they exist.
Street names are usually assigned by developers as they convert raw land and
numbering is usually done for consistency. But there's no "rule" that these
are compelled to follow. Except in Utah.
| |
| Rick Smith 2006-08-09, 7:55 am |
|
"HeyBub" <heybubNOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:12dhjrl54i7v384@news.supernews.com...
> Rick Smith wrote:
>
>
> Slight correction: In the US, neither street names nor numbers are the
> province of any agency of government. Every once in a while, a city will
> change the name of a street in honor of some deceased politician, but even
> that's rare. The post office and, for that matter, the fire department,
have
> to work with the names and numbers as they exist.
---quote from < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_name >
Sometimes, when communities are consolidated, the streets
are renamed according to a uniform system. For example,
when the community of Georgetown ceased to have even a
nominal existence independent of Washington, D.C., the
streets in Georgetown were renamed as an extension of
Washington's street-naming convention. Also, when leaders
of Arlington County, Virginia, asked the United States Postal
Service to place the entire county in the "Arlington, Virginia"
postal area, the USPS refused to do so until the county
adopted a uniform addressing and street-naming system,
which the county did in 1932.
----end quote
H'm, government and postal service involvement.
The article also refers to the "Commissioners' Plan of 1811 for
Manhattan" and "the city plan for Washington, D.C.". Clearly,
government involvement. Furthermore, any government that
adopts the National Emergency Number Association (NENA)
road naming and numbering standards will be involved in
determining what street names and numbers will be used.
(NENA gave us 9-1-1 service and, as I understand it, works
within the system to change that which is not acceptable to,
for example, fire departments.)
> Street names are usually assigned by developers as they convert raw land
and
> numbering is usually done for consistency. But there's no "rule" that
these
> are compelled to follow. Except in Utah.
Developers, as I understand the reference, did not exist until
Levittown, N.Y., in the very early 1950s. When such developers
create their own naming and numbering scheme, they are acting
as a quasi-government for future residents.
| |
| HeyBub 2006-08-09, 7:55 am |
| Rick Smith wrote:
>
> ---quote from < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_name >
> Sometimes, when communities are consolidated, the streets
> are renamed according to a uniform system. For example,
> when the community of Georgetown ceased to have even a
> nominal existence independent of Washington, D.C., the
> streets in Georgetown were renamed as an extension of
> Washington's street-naming convention. Also, when leaders
> of Arlington County, Virginia, asked the United States Postal
> Service to place the entire county in the "Arlington, Virginia"
> postal area, the USPS refused to do so until the county
> adopted a uniform addressing and street-naming system,
> which the county did in 1932.
> ----end quote
>
> H'm, government and postal service involvement.
>
> The article also refers to the "Commissioners' Plan of 1811 for
> Manhattan" and "the city plan for Washington, D.C.". Clearly,
> government involvement. Furthermore, any government that
> adopts the National Emergency Number Association (NENA)
> road naming and numbering standards will be involved in
> determining what street names and numbers will be used.
> (NENA gave us 9-1-1 service and, as I understand it, works
> within the system to change that which is not acceptable to,
> for example, fire departments.)
>
>
> Developers, as I understand the reference, did not exist until
> Levittown, N.Y., in the very early 1950s. When such developers
> create their own naming and numbering scheme, they are acting
> as a quasi-government for future residents.
Georgetown was merged with D.C. in 1871. You mention other examples from
1811 and 1950. In 135 years you've found three exceptions to the convention.
I commend you for your diligence in discovering something to argue about. As
for developers acting as "quasi-government," well, that's ridiculous.
In my community, a Texaco research facility petitioned the city government
(Bellaire, Texas) to change the name of the street on which it was located
to something else. Anything else. The city oblidgingly changed the name of
the six blocks of "Gulfton" street to "Fournace Place," possibly in
recognition that Texaco was the largest employer in the city.
Point is, cities CAN change the names of streets; it is just extremely rare.
Even more rare is an agency of government establishing street names to begin
with.
| |
| Howard Brazee 2006-08-09, 7:55 am |
| I wonder if English rural addresses have been standardized by their
postal service. If not, they would be extremely difficult to parse
and clean by a program.
| |
| epc8@juno.com 2006-08-09, 6:55 pm |
|
HeyBub wrote:
> Rick Smith wrote:
>
>
> Slight correction: In the US, neither street names nor numbers are the
> province of any agency of government. Every once in a while, a city will
> change the name of a street in honor of some deceased politician, but even
> that's rare. The post office and, for that matter, the fire department, have
> to work with the names and numbers as they exist.
[counter example]
Then you were not in the Detroit metro area when Woodward Avenue was
re-numbered from Detroit to Pontiac to create a uniformly increasing
series of addresses. This required the co-operation of the
municiplaities involved. Several reluctantly agreed to participate. In
addition, street renaming took place - at government behest (goodbye
Hunter Blvd, hello "Old Woodward"). Highway renumbering and
re-designation is common here too. Parts of the Lodge Freeway have been
local streets (James Couzens), state higway (M-10), interstate (I-96)
and Federal Highways (US-10).
| |
| epc8@juno.com 2006-08-09, 6:55 pm |
|
Howard Brazee wrote:
> I wonder if English rural addresses have been standardized by their
> postal service. If not, they would be extremely difficult to parse
> and clean by a program.
OH Noo (Mr. Bill) not only is this thread going OT, it's going to merge
with another one (on OOP & the NZ postal service.) !!!
| |
| Michael Wojcik 2006-08-09, 6:55 pm |
|
In article <RPNBg.335200$IK3.230922@pd7tw1no>, "James J. Gavan" <jgavandeletethis@shaw.ca> writes:
>
> Depending upon what e-mail tool you are using. (I'm using Mozilla's
> Thunderbird). I've got the address above for newsgroups and use a
> different address for personal e-mail.
>
> I still get the odd 'financial' or 'pharmaceutical' spams creeping
> through. But for the most part I've avoided that painful 100 a day.
Indeed, I find Thunderbird's Bayesian filter, after a few days of
training, now catches all but a handful of spam messages every day -
and I haven't had to correct a false positive in months. And I've
had my current real personal email address in Usenet messages since
November 2001.
> I certainly agree *we* shouldn't have to protect ourselves - anybody
> want to volunteer for a firing squad if we catch the bastards ?
Y'know, we've had open specifications for digitally-signed email for
nearly 20 years now (the first PEM RFC was published in 1987) - if
not longer. If a significant number of people just bothered to use
signed email, much of the spam problem would go away, because we'd
read the signed emails first and ignore the unsigned ones "until we
got around to them", which would mean in effect that unsigned emails
would be ignored for days or ws, and legitimate users would be
forced to start signing their messages or give up email.
Many people complain about spam, but very few are willing to actually
do the obvious thing to start getting rid of it.
(Do I sign my personal emails? No, I do not, because I almost never
correspond with anyone who can verify those signatures, and because
I dislike giving Verisign money (for a personal certificate). But
if I *do* start corresponding with someone who verifies signatures,
I'd be happy to start buying a certificate again and signing my
messages. And in the meantime I don't complain about spam.)
That doesn't mean that the spam generators aren't scum, of course
(and frequently criminals - even when they comply with the weak
unsolicited-email laws of their locality, many of them use illegal
means to send messages from computers they don't own). But it
doesn't appear that social or legal pressures are going to have
much impact on them, so (admittedly imperfect) technological
solutions are what we have for now.
--
Michael Wojcik michael.wojcik@microfocus.com
Proverbs for Paranoids, 2: The innocence of the creatures is in inverse
proportion to the immorality of the Master. -- Thomas Pynchon
| |
|
| In article <1155136363.559598.276930@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
<epc8@juno.com> wrote:
>
>HeyBub wrote:
>
>[counter example]
>
>Then you were not in the Detroit metro area when Woodward Avenue was
>re-numbered from Detroit to Pontiac to create a uniformly increasing
>series of addresses. This required the co-operation of the
>municiplaities involved.
If 'co-operation of the municiplaities involved' was needed then how is
this a counter-example to the assertion that 'In the US, neither street
names nor numbers are the province of any agency of government'? Were the
names/numbers in such a province then it would seem to be the agency's
authority to say 'Don't like it? Tough.' and put up the signs as it saw
fit.
DD
| |
|
| In article <ebcu7e0iu4@news3.newsguy.com>,
Michael Wojcik <mwojcik@newsguy.com> wrote:
[snip]
>Y'know, we've had open specifications for digitally-signed email for
>nearly 20 years now (the first PEM RFC was published in 1987) - if
>not longer.
Ummmmm... a new COBOL standard came out in 1985 and I posted the following
in 1999, complete with an immortalised mis-typing of 'bedroll' as
'bedrool'. From
<http://groups.google.com/group/comp...de=source&hl=en>
--begin quoted text:
Get out of your frangipani-wrapped bedrool and sniff around some *real*
shops - insurance, manufacturing, utility billing - and see how these
'newfangled' features a mere decade old are scorned.
>Other may prefer programming languages with more modern
>constructs.
Others may, sure... but let them *try* to get some code past a review and
implemented into Prod!
'What is *this* stuff? EVALUATE TRUE WHEN cond-1 imperative statement...
you call this COBOL?!?'
'Oh, please, Mr Standards-and-Practises Reviewmeister, it is exactly what
is allowed by the ANSI '85 Standard.'
'ANSI '85? Crap, I *knew* things were goin' ta hell in a handbasket when
we allowed them fancy ANSI '74 constructs in a couple a' years back...
look, 1985 is only 14 years ago, we oughta wait until the technology is
Really Proven before we implement it. Go back and rewrite this in *real*
COBOL, then try again.'
--end quoted text
DD
| |
| Rick Smith 2006-08-09, 6:55 pm |
|
"HeyBub" <heybubNOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:12djoe27jj9c6fe@news.supernews.com...
> Rick Smith wrote:
>
> Georgetown was merged with D.C. in 1871. You mention other examples from
> 1811 and 1950. In 135 years you've found three exceptions to the
convention.
Well, no! In a few minutes I found examples of government
assigning street names. I mentioned only three examples.
It is not clear to me what you intend by "convention"; but
if it was a reference to "developers" then there are countless
cases of cities adopting street naming schemes before 1950.
I also found, but did not mention Knox County, Tennessee.
< http://archive.knoxmpc.org/addressing/admin.pdf >
----begin quote
The following documents, together with these guidelines,
provide the basis for the Metropolitan Planning
Commission staff address and road naming procedures.
Knox County Ordinance Number 0-91-1-102,
establishing a Uniform Street Naming and Addressing
System within Knox County, approved February 19, 1991,
by the Knox County Commission.
City of Knoxville Ordinance Number 0-280-90
establishing a Uniform StreetNaming and Addressing
System within Knox County, approved September 18, 1990,
by the Knoxville City Council.
SECTION 1 - THE ADDRESSING DEPARTMENT
The Addressing Department of the Metropolitan Planning
Commission is responsible for assigning addresses and
verifying road names within Knox County, and ensuring
their conformance with existing regulations and ordinances.
----
The Addressing Department of the Metropolitan Planning
Commission of Knox County, Tennesse, seems like an
agency of government in the U.S., at least to me. And, I
have no idea how many other such agencies exist.
> I commend you for your diligence in discovering something to argue about.
As
> for developers acting as "quasi-government," well, that's ridiculous.
>
> In my community, a Texaco research facility petitioned the city government
> (Bellaire, Texas) to change the name of the street on which it was located
> to something else. Anything else. The city oblidgingly changed the name of
> the six blocks of "Gulfton" street to "Fournace Place," possibly in
> recognition that Texaco was the largest employer in the city.
In Ocala, a portion of S.W. 19th Avenue Road was
renamed Easy Street. These things happen.
> Point is, cities CAN change the names of streets; it is just extremely
rare.
> Even more rare is an agency of government establishing street names to
begin
> with.
I accept that it may be rare today; but at some point
many cities had to adopt uniform naming and addressing
schemes, otherwise those cities would not have uniform
naming and addressing schemes.
| |
| Donald Tees 2006-08-09, 6:55 pm |
| Rick Smith wrote:
>
> I accept that it may be rare today; but at some point
> many cities had to adopt uniform naming and addressing
> schemes, otherwise those cities would not have uniform
> naming and addressing schemes.
>
I doubt very much that there are *any* municpalities in North America
where anybody can change a street name without (at the least) getting
approval from the fire department and other emergency services.
Donald
| |
| epc8@juno.com 2006-08-09, 6:55 pm |
|
docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
> In article <1155136363.559598.276930@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
> <epc8@juno.com> wrote:
>
> If 'co-operation of the municiplaities involved' was needed then how is
> this a counter-example to the assertion that 'In the US, neither street
> names nor numbers are the province of any agency of government'? Were the
> names/numbers in such a province then it would seem to be the agency's
> authority to say 'Don't like it? Tough.' and put up the signs as it saw
> fit.
>
> DD
I think you have an extra negative there in your chain of logic. :-).
Let me provide an example where government *does* affirmatively name
and erect street signs. Again, in the suburban Detroit area, local
governments create the major east-west roads - mile roads and the major
north-south roads - cross streets. They pave these roads, maintain
these roads, plow these roads and take care of the street signs. While
the individual street names in a subdivision may be named by the
developer, addresses on these streets follow a government plan. Other
major roads, upon which there are residential dwellings, are also
named, built and signed by local government. Approval of a street name
is required by local and possibly other governments too in the same way
that we must have the contents of a personalized license plate approved
by the Secretary of State's office (DMV for you non Michiganders. :-).
We can't create duplicate street names or names containing obscenities
or vulgarities at will.
| |
|
| In article <1155147245.357565.307540@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
<epc8@juno.com> wrote:
>
>docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
>I think you have an extra negative there in your chain of logic. :-).
Wouldn't be the first time, no.
>
>Let me provide an example where government *does* affirmatively name
>and erect street signs. Again, in the suburban Detroit area, local
>governments create the major east-west roads - mile roads and the major
>north-south roads - cross streets. They pave these roads, maintain
>these roads, plow these roads and take care of the street signs. While
>the individual street names in a subdivision may be named by the
>developer, addresses on these streets follow a government plan. Other
>major roads, upon which there are residential dwellings, are also
>named, built and signed by local government.
All right... but this can be seen not as a 'province any agency of
government' but as a 'province of those who make them'.
>Approval of a street name
>is required by local and possibly other governments too in the same way
>that we must have the contents of a personalized license plate approved
>by the Secretary of State's office (DMV for you non Michiganders. :-).
Cite? The Motor Vehicles Department manufactures (and, I believe, by law
owns) license plates and thus, as 'those who make them', have authority
over their content... a variation of the abovementioned.
>We can't create duplicate street names or names containing obscenities
>or vulgarities at will.
Says... who? *That* would settle the argument, surely... well, almost...
it would say the agency of government which has the province of saying
'you cannot name a street (x)', it does not say that an agency of
government has the province of saying 'you must name a street (y)'.
DD
| |
| Rick Smith 2006-08-09, 6:55 pm |
|
"Donald Tees" <donald_tees@donald-tees.ca> wrote in message
news:ebd7d5$fd2$1@emma.aioe.org...
[snip]
> I doubt very much that there are *any* municipalities in North America
> where anybody can change a street name without (at the least) getting
> approval from the fire department and other emergency services.
That seems to fit the goal of NENA, in the U.S.
The criteria includes limiting the size of names, the
number of words that may make up a name, and
making such names easy to pronounce correctly.
All of which make it less likely to cause errors
when responding to emergencies.
| |
| epc8@juno.com 2006-08-09, 6:55 pm |
|
docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
> In article <1155147245.357565.307540@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> <epc8@juno.com> wrote:
>
> Wouldn't be the first time, no.
>
>
> All right... but this can be seen not as a 'province any agency of
> government' but as a 'province of those who make them'.
>
>
> Cite? The Motor Vehicles Department manufactures (and, I believe, by law
> owns) license plates and thus, as 'those who make them', have authority
> over their content... a variation of the abovementioned.
>
>
This comes close enough for me: (I'm not a lawyer.)
http://web1.msue.msu.edu/wexford/pa...PlanningAct.PDF
> Says... who? *That* would settle the argument, surely... well, almost...
> it would say the agency of government which has the province of saying
> 'you cannot name a street (x)', it does not say that an agency of
> government has the province of saying 'you must name a street (y)'.
>
> DD
North Territorial Road, for example was created and named by government
edict. Residents on that road are not free to change their addresses at
will to "Foo Lane".
I'm resting my case (I'm still not a lawyer). :-).
| |
| Richard 2006-08-09, 6:55 pm |
|
Howard Brazee wrote:
> I wonder if English rural addresses have been standardized by their
> postal service. If not, they would be extremely difficult to parse
> and clean by a program.
There is no certainly no retrospective address house numbering standard
in England. There are streets with numbers up one side and down
another, others that have odd numbers one side even the other, numbers
only given to unnamed houses and then in seemingly random fashion.
| |
| Howard Brazee 2006-08-09, 6:55 pm |
| On 9 Aug 2006 11:14:05 -0700, epc8@juno.com wrote:
>We can't create duplicate street names or names containing obscenities
>or vulgarities at will.
I wonder what criteria they use. There's a crater on the moon named
after father Maximilian Hell. There's a Hell's Point golf course in
Virginia. For various people "leg" was vulgar, but "XXXXX" was not.
Some cities in Japan really sound like obscenities. Names get copied
from other names, of places and people. They also get named after
instances such as "dead man's gulch". Vulgarity requires context.
| |
| epc8@juno.com 2006-08-09, 6:55 pm |
| Howard Brazee wrote:
> On 9 Aug 2006 11:14:05 -0700, epc8@juno.com wrote:
>
>
> I wonder what criteria they use. There's a crater on the moon named
> after father Maximilian Hell. There's a Hell's Point golf course in
> Virginia. For various people "leg" was vulgar, but "XXXXX" was not.
Someone has to approve the naming of public streets. Even if we choose
the name, some government body has to say "OK". See the reference I
already cited or
http://www.twp-superior.org/about/r...ating_roads.pdf
for a history of territorial roads in Michigan.
> Some cities in Japan really sound like obscenities. Names get copied
> from other names, of places and people. They also get named after
> instances such as "dead man's gulch". Vulgarity requires context.
You've got me there. Hell, Michigan is well known. Climax is on the way
to Kalamzaoo.
I'm not advocating prudishness. I'm just making the point that
government does exert authority over what streets are named. I once
lived in a city with a street named "Lois Lane". This actually was
debated and discussed before the planning commission.
I do know that the government has tried to "Sanitize" some maps, for
example there is a western landmark named "Sh** House Butte" which is
named on federal maps as "S.H. Butte".
[Now the headaches related to updating streets, addresses, area codes,
zip codes, etc. might be relevant to this NG... :-).]
| |
| Donald Tees 2006-08-09, 6:55 pm |
| epc8@juno.com wrote:
> Howard Brazee wrote:
>
>
>
> Someone has to approve the naming of public streets. Even if we choose
> the name, some government body has to say "OK". See the reference I
> already cited or
> http://www.twp-superior.org/about/r...ating_roads.pdf
> for a history of territorial roads in Michigan.
>
>
>
>
> You've got me there. Hell, Michigan is well known. Climax is on the way
> to Kalamzaoo.
>
We are more gentile in Ontario. Hades is beside Purgatory.
Donald
| |
| James J. Gavan 2006-08-09, 6:55 pm |
| Rick Smith wrote:
> "Donald Tees" <donald_tees@donald-tees.ca> wrote in message
> news:ebd7d5$fd2$1@emma.aioe.org...
> [snip]
>
>
>
> That seems to fit the goal of NENA, in the U.S.
> The criteria includes limiting the size of names, the
> number of words that may make up a name, and
> making such names easy to pronounce correctly.
> All of which make it less likely to cause errors
> when responding to emergencies.
>
Above kinda rang a bell - wonder what they would have done with following :-
".....Welsh place names are largely descriptive, eg: Mynydd Bach - small
mountain. A good example of this is the famous:-
Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwlll
lantysiliogogogoch
Which roughly translates as:-
The Church of St. Mary by the pool with the white hazel near the rapid
whirlpool by St. Tysilio's church and the red cave.......".
As for pronunciation - well ! The best I can offer is :-
GLHAN-FAIR..(something in the middle)....GORE-GOCKH. (You need to do a
lot of coughing to get it right).
Jimmy
| |
| Howard Brazee 2006-08-09, 6:55 pm |
| On 9 Aug 2006 13:20:12 -0700, epc8@juno.com wrote:
>I'm not advocating prudishness. I'm just making the point that
>government does exert authority over what streets are named. I once
>lived in a city with a street named "Lois Lane". This actually was
>debated and discussed before the planning commission.
Not far from my house is Disk Drive and Tape Drive. They're the
home of Storage Tech (now owned by Sun).
I dislike having the same name for a dozen different cities, whether
they are named "Pleasantville" or "Washington". I was stationed
next to Selma once, which was unique enough. I lived in a town in
between Winchester and Barkhamsted called Winsted. Later I found a
town in Iowa named after the Winsted in CT.
I wonder if there ever were historically two cities with the same name
in one state, and one had to be renamed. I know of two different
streets in the same metropolis with the exact same name.
| |
| Clark F Morris 2006-08-09, 6:55 pm |
| On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 14:34:29 -0600, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net>
wrote:
>On 9 Aug 2006 13:20:12 -0700, epc8@juno.com wrote:
>
>
>Not far from my house is Disk Drive and Tape Drive. They're the
>home of Storage Tech (now owned by Sun).
>
>I dislike having the same name for a dozen different cities, whether
>they are named "Pleasantville" or "Washington". I was stationed
>next to Selma once, which was unique enough. I lived in a town in
>between Winchester and Barkhamsted called Winsted. Later I found a
>town in Iowa named after the Winsted in CT.
>
>I wonder if there ever were historically two cities with the same name
>in one state, and one had to be renamed. I know of two different
>streets in the same metropolis with the exact same name.
There were over 80 Summits listed as municipalities in the Official
Guide to the Railways at one point. There are two Lawrencetowns in
Nova Scotia, Canada.
| |
| Charles W. Cribbs II 2006-08-09, 6:55 pm |
| NENA does not assign anything. NENA is a standard format by which local
governments, city and county, provide addressing that can be used for 911 or
E-911. All NENA does is provide a standard format with which telephone
service address information can be provided to the various 911 or E-911
entities from the ILEC or CLEC. An ILEC or CLEC are telephone service
providers, both being the local telephone service provider.
What NENA does is provide the format of the file that contains the NENA 1, 2
or NENA modified standard file format. The file is a line sequential file
that is sent, I think to the RBOC (Regional Bell Operating Company), to make
sure it conforms to the NENA format and then is provided to the ILEC or CLEC
and is uploaded into their customer service database as well as provide
white page listings.
What this process does is standardize the way an address is formatted so
that when the 911 or E911 service provider gets the value produced on the
screen you don't have something like: Tom Smith Rural Route 1, Lima Ohio.
A rural route is a mailing address and means little to a phone company and
whoever is answering fire calls or police calls.
Using the NENA format the customer has to have an actual house number on a
street where before many roads didn't have a real street name or had various
street names depending on who you talked to in that county. Old Rt. 36 is
usually not a street name, Elwin Blacktop is usually not a name but they
could mean the same road some place.
You want a hard Cobol problem, trying converting some of the crap that is in
customer databases and make it fit into a NENA format file which is built
more like a database table. The files I was having to put in a NENA format
where essentially a string that you had to process through to try to figure
out what you had and try to put it in the correct field in the NENA file. My
buddies working on external updates are still trying to figure it out where
I work. Just look at the Qwest FIC-AIR file format, it is more like an xml
file because it doesn't put file information at a particular offset like
NENA does it provides tags that are to be read by their main frame and put
the information in the correct table field for white pages and directory
assistance.
"Rick Smith" <ricksmith@mfi.net> wrote in message
news:12dji4ermqcokd1@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "HeyBub" <heybubNOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:12dhjrl54i7v384@news.supernews.com...
even[color=darkred]
> have
>
> ---quote from < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_name >
> Sometimes, when communities are consolidated, the streets
> are renamed according to a uniform system. For example,
> when the community of Georgetown ceased to have even a
> nominal existence independent of Washington, D.C., the
> streets in Georgetown were renamed as an extension of
> Washington's street-naming convention. Also, when leaders
> of Arlington County, Virginia, asked the United States Postal
> Service to place the entire county in the "Arlington, Virginia"
> postal area, the USPS refused to do so until the county
> adopted a uniform addressing and street-naming system,
> which the county did in 1932.
> ----end quote
>
> H'm, government and postal service involvement.
>
> The article also refers to the "Commissioners' Plan of 1811 for
> Manhattan" and "the city plan for Washington, D.C.". Clearly,
> government involvement. Furthermore, any government that
> adopts the National Emergency Number Association (NENA)
> road naming and numbering standards will be involved in
> determining what street names and numbers will be used.
> (NENA gave us 9-1-1 service and, as I understand it, works
> within the system to change that which is not acceptable to,
> for example, fire departments.)
>
> and
> these
>
> Developers, as I understand the reference, did not exist until
> Levittown, N.Y., in the very early 1950s. When such developers
> create their own naming and numbering scheme, they are acting
> as a quasi-government for future residents.
>
>
>
| |
|
| In article <1155150859.591659.45110@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
<epc8@juno.com> wrote:
>
>docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
[snip]
[color=darkred]
>This comes close enough for me: (I'm not a lawyer.)
>
>http://web1.msue.msu.edu/wexford/pa...PlanningAct.PDF
Ummmm... this is 13 pages of moderately... thick reading. Upon searching
for 'name' it yields five hits, one a reference to public utilities or
railroads, one a reference to planning commissions receiving plans,
another a reference to public utilities, railroad companies and any
government entity receiving plans, another a reference to a person to whom
a notice of hearing shall be sent and the last referring to 'owners of
land immediately adjoining platted land' to whom notices shall be sent.
Nary a word about duplicate, vulgar or obscene street-names that I can
see... what am I missing?
>
>
>North Territorial Road, for example was created and named by government
>edict. Residents on that road are not free to change their addresses at
>will to "Foo Lane".
As noted above, the residents were not the ones who made the road, you
assert that it was 'created... by government edict'.
>
>I'm resting my case (I'm still not a lawyer). :-).
Perhaps it will gain strength from the rest.
DD
| |
|
| In article <gdekd217oh2jt14j2vqu3nv7542i9d6m74@4ax.com>,
Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> wrote:
>On 9 Aug 2006 11:14:05 -0700, epc8@juno.com wrote:
>
>
>I wonder what criteria they use. There's a crater on the moon named
>after father Maximilian Hell. There's a Hell's Point golf course in
>Virginia. For various people "leg" was vulgar, but "XXXXX" was not.
>
>Some cities in Japan really sound like obscenities. Names get copied
>from other names, of places and people. They also get named after
>instances such as "dead man's gulch". Vulgarity requires context.
I'd heard that when a highway was being planned that would go through the
middle of Blue Balls, Pennsylvania the residents considered renaming their
fair city Coitus Interruptus... but I've heard a few odd things, here and
there.
DD
| |
| Rick Smith 2006-08-09, 9:55 pm |
|
"Charles W. Cribbs II" <charlescribbs@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:mfvCg.2243$Qf.152@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "Rick Smith" <ricksmith@mfi.net> wrote in message
> news:12dji4ermqcokd1@corp.supernews.com...
[snip]
>
> NENA does not assign anything.
Then it's a good thing I didn't say they did.
> NENA is a standard format by which local
> governments, city and county, provide addressing that can be used for 911
or
> E-911. All NENA does is provide a standard format with which telephone
> service address information can be provided to the various 911 or E-911
> entities from the ILEC or CLEC.
NENA is an association, see full name above, that, based
on my cursory study, provides standards and guidelines.
Thank you for the additional information.
| |
| epc8@juno.com 2006-08-09, 9:55 pm |
|
docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
> In article <1155150859.591659.45110@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
> <epc8@juno.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
> As noted above, the residents were not the ones who made the road, you
> assert that it was 'created... by government edict'.
>
>
> Perhaps it will gain strength from the rest.
>
> DD
My arguments aren't going anywhere so it is time to quit!
| |
|
| In article <1155175397.666945.288640@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
<epc8@juno.com> wrote:
>
>docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
>
>My arguments aren't going anywhere so it is time to quit!
.... or maybe find a different road?
DD
|
|
|
|
|