Cobol - Any comments?

Author

Any comments?

Pete Dashwood

2006-03-16, 7:55 am

I thought the group might find the following interesting:

PUBLISHER SAVES A MILLION MIGRATING OFF MAINFRAME
By Joe Spurr, News Writer

Simon & Schuster Inc. plans to save $1 million a year on hardware costs and
licensing fees as a result of migrating off its old IBM mainframes.
The New York City-based publishing house is in the middle of a three-part
changeover from its Cobol-crunching IBM 9672-RB5 to an Intel-based Unisys
ES7000 running Microsoft SQL Server.

The decision to switch came about two years ago when officials, already
cognizant of high mainframe costs, began to realize the growth of their
company was beginning to conflict with the size of its shoes, so to speak.
But with stability a concern and the looming task of converting five million
lines of code, the pressure was on to make the right move.

"The challenge of rewriting everything -- it was a daunting task," said Mike
Grant, Simon & Schuster vice president of application development. "But we
needed to do something . We are running flat out on our machine right now.
We're almost 90% to 100% capacity all the time."

Mainframes have been around forever and know how to get things done their
own way, but, especially for smaller companies, the elegance that makes them
useful can also be unwieldy to upkeep.

More on mainframes
Integration specialists ride mainframe migration wave

Graying workforce endangers your mainframes

Advantages of the data center's elder statesman -- stability, the ability to
scale and flex in the face of server sprawl and new workloads -- can be
offset by premium hardware costs. Complicated architecture that goes back 20
years, combined with a skills base in decline, also means potentially high
labor expenses.

Grant said he was surfing for answers when he stumbled across
Tokyo-headquartered Fujitsu Software Corp., a specialist in assisting
migrations like CICS applications to .NET and mainframe batch applications
to Windows.

The latter was a crucial difference when proofs of concept were drawn and
discussed with both Fujitsu and U.K.-based Micro Focus Ltd., a similar
migration outfit, Grant said.

"We were very impressed with both, but the problem we saw with Micro
Focus -- which may have since changed -- was a lot of emulation software,"
Grant said. "We wanted to standardize our .NET environment, and the Fujitsu
model more closely aligned with our vision, in terms of running Visual
Studio and having it play well with VB [Visual Basic] and C#."

After recently transferring over its royalty system -- and working with
India-based Tata Consultancy Services Ltd. to convert its DB2 to SQL
server -- the final hulking shift comes soon for Simon & Schuster -- moving
its main order processing system. But the true test will come late summer, a
traditional season of frenzy that will test both nerves and networks as
publishers push to move product in time for schools reopening.

"Until then, we'll still be kind of nervous -- last year our mainframe was
so backed up that often systems weren't coming up until 10 the next
morning," Grant said. "But right now we're seeing jobs perform so much
better. We are really seeing some performance gains, we've been pleased, and
all the vendors are very confident."

Indeed, Andrew Mackenzie, strategic alliance manager for Fujitsu Software,
sees no gray in the environment.

"The thing about migrations is you're either a hero or a goat," Mackenzie
said. "With mission-critical apps, it can be very scary to turn off the
mainframe. But five years ago there was a lot more risk. There's been
relentless performance gains in microprocessors. It comes down to if I'm the
CIO who's got this thing that's sucking up 60% of my budget -- you're either
going to migrate or drown."

IT research firm Gartner Inc. recently predicted 80% of today's smaller
mainframe environments will move away by 2010. And though the sentiment of
that forecast is nothing new -- bashing mainframes is practically a pastime
in some circles. Detractors today predict doom in the face of the system's
recent resurgence, exemplified by double-digit revenue gains since 2003 of
the IBM's zSeries.

"If someone hasn't looked at a mainframe in a while, they should look
again," said zSeries product director Collette Martin. "There's an awful lot
of flexibility. And for the customers who are very small, with older
mainframes, those who are struggling in that respect but looking for a value
proposition to move forward, it is considerably less expensive to run
today's mainframes."

No, I didn't write it... :-) (The Author's name is on the byline)

I'm still backing 2015 for the end of COBOL... :-)

Pete.

void * clvrmnky()

2006-03-16, 9:55 pm

Pete Dashwood wrote:
> I thought the group might find the following interesting:
>
> PUBLISHER SAVES A MILLION MIGRATING OFF MAINFRAME
> By Joe Spurr, News Writer
>
> Simon & Schuster Inc. plans to save $1 million a year on hardware costs and
> licensing fees as a result of migrating off its old IBM mainframes.
> The New York City-based publishing house is in the middle of a three-part
> changeover from its Cobol-crunching IBM 9672-RB5 to an Intel-based Unisys
> ES7000 running Microsoft SQL Server.
>
[...]

Well, we are seeing a lot of interest in our Java-based client-server
app from traditional mainframe shops. Many of these shops want to
minimize any further COBOL development, or control it in a manner more
conducive to implementation of Sarbanes-Oxley.

However, the usual telcos and banks we talk with are not planning this
sort of drastic change. They would rather find solutions that bridge
the mainframe and client-server world.

Peter Lacey

2006-03-16, 9:55 pm

"void * clvrmnky()" wrote:
>
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
> Well, we are seeing a lot of interest in our Java-based client-server
> app from traditional mainframe shops.

>"Many of these shops want to
> minimize any further COBOL development, or control it in a manner more
> conducive to implementation of Sarbanes-Oxley".
>

This is one of those all-too-common statements that make no sense at
all. What on earth has the language used got to do with Sarbox? Isn't
the act supposed to mandate accountability? Does it state that any
language is better than others? How is control of COBOL source or use
any different from any other language's when it comes to being
"conducive to implementation of Sarbanes-Oxley"?

Please explain!

PL

LX-i

2006-03-17, 3:55 am

Pete Dashwood wrote:
> Simon & Schuster Inc. plans to save $1 million a year on hardware costs and
> licensing fees as a result of migrating off its old IBM mainframes.
> The New York City-based publishing house is in the middle of a three-part
> changeover from its Cobol-crunching IBM 9672-RB5 to an Intel-based Unisys
> ES7000 running Microsoft SQL Server.

Those ES7000 servers rock! It's basically their mainframe-sized Intel
platform. I believe they support up to 16 processors in one box (it may
be 32 processors by now).

They're very

- and, I believe they also run Unisys's A-series (LX)
operating system. For those folks, they can get cheaper hardware *and*
no conversion... :)

(Us 9-bit 2200 (IX) folks are out of luck on those - although the new
Dorado series boxes are very quick. I saw our production machine
running at 1,600 MIPS this w

! (Of course, I also saw them adjust the
configuration down to 1,200...))

They haven't left us out in the cold, though. Now, instead of paying
for the capability of the hardware, we pay for the MIPS we actually use.
It's significantly cheaper, while allowing us to have the power on
demand if we need it. I'm waiting for us to get that on our development
boxes, so we can do system-wide rebuilds in an hour. (We did it in
about an hour and a half on a 150 MIP machine - but on our normal
development machine, it takes about 8 hours, usually done overnight.)

More than you ever wanted to know about Unisys, probably... :) I just
had to give props to the ES7000's - I wish I could get one for my house!
(although I have no idea what I'd do with it... They run Linux too -
maybe that would be my terminal server!)

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \ / ~ Live from Montgomery, AL! ~
~ / \/ o ~ ~
~ / /\ - | ~ daniel@thebelowdomain ~
~ _____ / \ | ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e ~
~ h---- r+++ z++++ ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Who is more irrational? A man who believes in a God he doesn't see, or
a man who's offended by a God he doesn't believe in?" - Brad Stine

James J. Gavan

2006-03-17, 3:55 am

LX-i wrote:

Daniel,

For first time ever, just read your byline in your footer. Still we
don't want to get into that all over again do we :-)

Patience this end - let's see what observations you come back with about
the Islamic world in terms of their concept of justice, democracy and
religion when you have finished your tour of duty. I'm going to forecast
you will probably be cynical and might use words like "Bewilderment",
"Exasperation" etc.

Jimmy

Charles Richmond

2006-03-17, 3:55 am

Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
> I thought the group might find the following interesting:
>
> PUBLISHER SAVES A MILLION MIGRATING OFF MAINFRAME
> By Joe Spurr, News Writer
>
> Simon & Schuster Inc. plans to save $1 million a year on hardware costs and
> licensing fees as a result of migrating off its old IBM mainframes.
> The New York City-based publishing house is in the middle of a three-part
> changeover from its Cobol-crunching IBM 9672-RB5 to an Intel-based Unisys
> ES7000 running Microsoft SQL Server.
>
Anyone who has *anything* important running on their computers...
should *never* use a program from Mi$uck to do it. Instead, they
should get a program from a *reliable* and *trustworthy* software
company.

--
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net |
+----------------------------------------------------------------+

LX-i

2006-03-17, 3:55 am

James J. Gavan wrote:
> LX-i wrote:
>
> Daniel,
>
> For first time ever, just read your byline in your footer. Still we
> don't want to get into that all over again do we :-)

It was a recent addition - don't sweat your recent observation. :)

IMO, though, that's the beauty of that quote. It's doesn't even attempt
to get into "all that" - it only questions the rationality of two
comparative viewpoints. And, there's not an answer - some might feel
that the first man is less rational.

Kind of like that Robert Frost poem - "I took the road less traveled by,
and that has made all the difference." Most everyone thinks that this
means that he's happy with that decision - but, that's not what it says.
It only says that it changed his life.

(And note, too - it's not ridiculing the lack of belief in (a) God, just
inquiring as to the rationality of being *offended* by a deity that
someone doesn't believe exists.)

> Patience this end - let's see what observations you come back with about
> the Islamic world in terms of their concept of justice, democracy and
> religion when you have finished your tour of duty. I'm going to forecast
> you will probably be cynical and might use words like "Bewilderment",
> "Exasperation" etc.

Well, seeing as I'm pretty cynical of Islam from the get-go, I doubt my
time there will change that. :) But, I shall report back here.

(heh - this'll teach folks to post a thread with the subject "*Any*
comments?"... ;> )

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \ / ~ Live from Montgomery, AL! ~
~ / \/ o ~ ~
~ / /\ - | ~ daniel@thebelowdomain ~
~ _____ / \ | ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e ~
~ h---- r+++ z++++ ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Who is more irrational? A man who believes in a God he doesn't see, or
a man who's offended by a God he doesn't believe in?" - Brad Stine

HeyBub

2006-03-17, 3:55 am

Charles Richmond wrote:
> Anyone who has *anything* important running on their computers...
> should *never* use a program from Mi$uck to do it. Instead, they
> should get a program from a *reliable* and *trustworthy* software
> company.
>

Interestingly, more people have placed their trust in the reliability of
Micros~1 than in any other company. Ever.

There was a time, not so very long ago, that on the tolling of the hour by
Big Ben, the British Ensign was being raised, at dawn, in some far-flung
part of the Empire.

Now, with every tick of the atomic clock at the National Bureau of
Standards, Micros~1 Windows is being booted thousands of times. Micros~1 IS
the empire of our age.

You can, if you want, be a modern-day Sepoy, or a Boxer, or a Boer, or a
Zulu, or even a Napolean. Enjoy.

Richard

2006-03-17, 3:55 am

LX-i wrote:

> IMO, though, that's the beauty of that quote. It's doesn't even attempt
> to get into "all that" - it only questions the rationality of two
> comparative viewpoints. And, there's not an answer - some might feel
> that the first man is less rational.

Well I think that it is irrational to think that there are only two
viewpoints, but then religionists typically do try to create a
dichotomy where none exists in an attempt to claim, or at least imply,
that if one is not true then the other must be.

> (And note, too - it's not ridiculing the lack of belief in (a) God, just
> inquiring as to the rationality of being *offended* by a deity that
> someone doesn't believe exists.)

Are you offended by the hundreds of deities that you don't believe in ?

Are you offended by Rastas; Scientoloist Thetans; Hindu's Brahma,
Vishnu, Shiva and the rest; the Canaanite Pantheon; Shintu Gods; and
the others ?

Actually, what I am offended by is the willfull ignorance of some
religionists: flat earthers, geocentralists, ... ummm, .. etc.

Richard

2006-03-17, 3:55 am

> Micros~1 Windows is being booted thousands of times

Yeah, I find that I have to boot it thousands of times, too. ;-)

In 2000 it was discovered that Win95, 98 and ME would lock up after
being up for exactly 39 days and some hours, being an integer roll over
problem. The joke was that it took 5 years before anyone had managed to
keep one up that long without having to reboot.

Charles Richmond

2006-03-17, 3:55 am

HeyBub wrote:
>
> Charles Richmond wrote:
>
> Interestingly, more people have placed their trust in the reliability of
> Micros~1 than in any other company. Ever.
>
And I see them paying the price *every* day. When viruses go around,
whole city governments in the U.S. shut down. Mi$uck's "security" is
like a sieve: most anything can get through with little effort.
>
> There was a time, not so very long ago, that on the tolling of the hour by
> Big Ben, the British Ensign was being raised, at dawn, in some far-flung
> part of the Empire.
>
> Now, with every tick of the atomic clock at the National Bureau of
> Standards, Micros~1 Windows is being booted thousands of times. Micros~1 IS
> the empire of our age.
>
Yes, I was forced to work on Mi$uck Windows before. We had to reboot
*several* times a day at my place of employment. So I guess that boosts
the Mi$uck number of daily boots. ;-) One of the guys who was running
Windows NT had to *re-install* his system a couple of times a month. It
took him *all* afternoon to accomplish a re-install.
>
> You can, if you want, be a modern-day Sepoy, or a Boxer, or a Boer, or a
> Zulu, or even a Napolean. Enjoy.
>
I'm *not* sure what you mean here...but I'm sticking with my Mac and
Linux boxes thank you very much.

--
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net |
+----------------------------------------------------------------+

Howard Brazee

2006-03-17, 6:55 pm

On 16 Mar 2006 20:30:11 -0800, "Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote:

>Yeah, I find that I have to boot it thousands of times, too. ;-)
>
>In 2000 it was discovered that Win95, 98 and ME would lock up after
>being up for exactly 39 days and some hours, being an integer roll over
>problem. The joke was that it took 5 years before anyone had managed to
>keep one up that long without having to reboot.

My home computer locks up more often than it reboots itself. I start
it up by turning it off with the power button.

The computer shop has replaced the hard drive, replaced the video
card, and replaced the power supply. I have removed the Iomega drive
and its drivers and replaced the monitor. Microsoft gets the big
dumps (what do they do with all the aborts that get e-mailed to it?).

Spending lots of money without solving anything reminds me of
government.

Howard Brazee

2006-03-17, 6:55 pm

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 20:02:23 -0600, LX-i <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote:

>
>"Who is more irrational? A man who believes in a God he doesn't see, or
>a man who's offended by a God he doesn't believe in?" - Brad Stine

I've never seen someone offended by something he doesn't believe
exists. I've seen people offended by people whose beliefs are
different from theirs. Wars are fought over this.

Oliver Wong

2006-03-17, 6:55 pm

"Charles Richmond" <richchas@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:441A5A58.5B609BD3@comcast.net...
[snip][color=darkred]
> Yes, I was forced to work on Mi$uck Windows before. We had to reboot
> *several* times a day at my place of employment. So I guess that boosts
> the Mi$uck number of daily boots. ;-) One of the guys who was running
> Windows NT had to *re-install* his system a couple of times a month. It
> took him *all* afternoon to accomplish a re-install.
[snip]
> I'm *not* sure what you mean here...but I'm sticking with my Mac and
> Linux boxes thank you very much.

If your goal is to promote the adoption of Linux and Mac over Windows,
you should probably not do it by saying "*I* have had bad experiences with
Windows, that's why *YOU* should switch".

Imagine it from the perspective of the person you're preaching to.
Perhaps they have a system which is running Windows XP just fine, which they
haven't had to reinstall for maybe 2 or 3 years now, and when they did
install, it was a quick 30 minute process, in which only say 7 of those
minutes actually required user interaction. After hearing you talk about
"number of daily boots", "re-install a couple of times a month", "all
afternoon to accomplish a re-install", they might dismiss your situation as
being completely alien to theirs, and thus your advice would not be
applicable to them.

Note that I'm not saying that you're lying about having problems with
Windows; I'm saying just because YOU'VE had problems, why should that mean
OTHER people have to change their OSes?

- Oliver

James J. Gavan

2006-03-17, 6:55 pm

Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 20:02:23 -0600, LX-i <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I've never seen someone offended by something he doesn't believe
> exists. I've seen people offended by people whose beliefs are
> different from theirs. Wars are fought over this.
Howard,

I disagree with your first sentence. It occurs fairly regularly,
(perhaps a comment about every two months), in the readers' letters in
my local paper.

Jimmy

Richard

2006-03-17, 6:55 pm

James J. Gavan wrote:

[color=darkred]
> I disagree with your first sentence. It occurs fairly regularly,
> (perhaps a comment about every two months), in the readers' letters in
> my local paper.

What makes you think that the offense has been caused by some alleged
'god' rather than by the actions of people ?

But then again, perhaps your paper does carry offensive letters from
imaginary readers.

Richard

2006-03-17, 6:55 pm

Oliver Wong wrote:
> If your goal is to promote the adoption of Linux and Mac over Windows,
> you should probably not do it by saying "*I* have had bad experiences with
> Windows, that's why *YOU* should switch".

I didn't see where he was promoting any particular syatem beyond
mentioning what he used. What he did say was that it is provvable that
millions have bad experiences with Windows systems which is why there
is such a thriving industry in anti-virus, anti-spyware and firewall
add-ons to cover over the poor design and implementation.

> Imagine it from the perspective of the person you're preaching to.
> Perhaps they have a system which is running Windows XP just fine, which they
> haven't had to reinstall for maybe 2 or 3 years now,

Oh yeah ? name one ;-)

> and when they did
> install, it was a quick 30 minute process, in which only say 7 of those
> minutes actually required user interaction.

Actually he said system. This would also include all the software that
he needed beyond the bare OS. Also he said NT which does take longer
than XP. And then you have to apply all the patches and service packs
to try to make it less vulnerable to infection by malware, turn off all
the annoyances, configure the applications, restore the backed up
files.

> After hearing you talk about
> "number of daily boots", "re-install a couple of times a month", "all
> afternoon to accomplish a re-install", they might dismiss your situation as
> being completely alien to theirs,

And those that have spent half a day getting a system back to where
they want it will be just as dismissive of your 'quick 30 minutes'.

> Note that I'm not saying that you're lying about having problems with
> Windows; I'm saying just because YOU'VE had problems, why should that mean
> OTHER people have to change their OSes?

I am sure that there are millions of people using Windows with no
problems at all, no security issues, no failures, no lock ups at all
ever. There are, however, millions (well at least 10s of thousands) of
people running Windows who are unknowingly zombies in spam remailing
networks, and/or are infected with virusses and worms.

HeyBub

2006-03-17, 6:55 pm

Oliver Wong wrote:
>
> If your goal is to promote the adoption of Linux and Mac over
> Windows, you should probably not do it by saying "*I* have had bad
> experiences with Windows, that's why *YOU* should switch".
>

[...]

> Note that I'm not saying that you're lying about having problems
> with Windows; I'm saying just because YOU'VE had problems, why should
> that mean OTHER people have to change their OSes?
>

Common syndrome, found in religions, interventionist groups (like AA), and
more. By convincing someone of the probable truth of your claim, your own
decision is validated.

We have many computers running Windows XP. The only unscheduled re-boot I
can remember is when things got shut down during hurricane Rita. For those
of us with good experiences, as you point out, we immediately suspect the
motives and/or competence of those who XXXXX about Micros~1.

James J. Gavan

2006-03-17, 6:55 pm

Richard wrote:
> James J. Gavan wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> What makes you think that the offense has been caused by some alleged
> 'god' rather than by the actions of people ?

I don't think one way or the other - just a statement of fact as to what
occasionally appears.
>
> But then again, perhaps your paper does carry offensive letters from
> imaginary readers.

I made no reference to the word 'offense'. As to your imaginary readers
- the paper verifies people *do* exist before publishing - e-mail
address, telephone #, name and address.

As a point of interest, it is a Conservative themed newspaper, owned by
Canwest (Jewish Liberals) and the letters that get included are
monitored by a Jewess who definitely is a proclaimed 'Leftie'. How's
that for democracy ?

Jimmy

Peter Lacey

2006-03-17, 6:55 pm

Richard wrote:

>
> I am sure that there are millions of people using Windows with no
> problems at all, no security issues, no failures, no lock ups at all
> ever. There are, however, millions (well at least 10s of thousands) of
> people running Windows who are unknowingly zombies in spam remailing
> networks, and/or are infected with virusses and worms.

It may be interesting to note that there is a whole computing universe
out there in which many of these problems simply don't occur. I'll
instance two machines that were absolutely bullet-proof when it came to
lockups or programs interfering with each other or memory leaks or
crashing the system. None of these ever happened, so long as the
machine was not physically malfunctioning. These were the IBM S/36, and
the various systems running PRIMOS. IBM, of course, was once the
biggest computer company in the known universe, but Prime, although it
got into the top 500 for a while, has long since vanished and never had
resources comparable to IBM. My point is that such operating systems
can and have been built. Whether the difference is in the resources, or
the ability and span of control of the people in charge of the
development, or even the architecture of the machines, doesn't matter -
if it can be done at all, it ought to be achievable by all!

I imagine that AS/400's are pretty tough, too. How about IBM or Unisys
mainframes?

(A Prime systems engineer told me that he'd heard of a couple of virus
attempts. But nothing ever came of them. I'm not claiming immunity
from viruses is possible - any system can be cracked, I imagine, if the
necessary effort is taken).

(I do most of my work under WIN98 because that's what the PC came with
and I don't want the aggravation of upgrading and new problems (that's
to say, not before I have to!) It is stable enough for what I need and
will run everything that I need. Yet it locks up every couple of days,
sometimes when switching from one app to another, sometimes after trying
to to wake up from standby. After standby, I can't print - although
that may be a driver problem, not a MS problem; still that can hardly be
a situation that wasn't anticipated. And sometimes it won't shut down!)

PL

Oliver Wong

2006-03-17, 6:55 pm

"Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1142626524.283856.319400@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Oliver Wong wrote:
>
> I didn't see where he was promoting any particular syatem beyond
> mentioning what he used. What he did say was that it is provvable that
> millions have bad experiences with Windows systems which is why there
> is such a thriving industry in anti-virus, anti-spyware and firewall
> add-ons to cover over the poor design and implementation.

From the OP's post:
<quote>
Anyone who has *anything* important running on their computers...
should *never* use a program from Mi$uck to do it. Instead, they
should get a program from a *reliable* and *trustworthy* software
company.
</quote>

To me, that's more than merely "I run Linux/Mac/whatever, and
incidentally, millions of people have problems with Windows." but perhaps I
misinterpreted him. At any rate, I didn't mean to say that what he is doing
is promoting Linux/Mac/whatever over Windows; just giving him advice IF that
is what (s)he was doing. If that's NOT what (s)he is doing, (s)he is free to
dismiss my advice as inapplicable.

>
>
> Oh yeah ? name one ;-)

My home machine is like that.

>
>
> Actually he said system. This would also include all the software that
> he needed beyond the bare OS. Also he said NT which does take longer
> than XP. And then you have to apply all the patches and service packs
> to try to make it less vulnerable to infection by malware, turn off all
> the annoyances, configure the applications, restore the backed up
> files.

The same is true of Linux. More than once have I waited 2 or 3 hours for
Debian to download and install all the packages. I've played around with
different distributions, and so far I like Ubuntu the best, but I'm not
quite ready to "give up" Windows in exchange for it yet.

There was one distribution, I think it was Mandrake but I'm not sure,
where after installing, it said it was going to connect to the Internet and
update itself. So I said fine. Then it told me I needed to create a
"Mandrake Star Account" or something like that to get the updates. Okay,
fine. Then the update agent crashed. Well, no big deal, so I go to the
Mandrake website and fill in the registration, and it says it'll send an
e-mail to my account containing my password. A few moments later, I get the
password, type it in, and it says it can't find my account. I've double
checked for typos, and I've asked it to reset my password half a dozen
times, still no luck. Couldn't get my Mandrake account setup, and so I
couldn't update my software. Spent several days on the problem before giving
up.

I also find Linux to be far less forgiving when "configuring
everything". What kind of video drivers should I use? Well, my video card
manufacturer isn't listed there, so I'll just choose one randomly. Oops, big
mistake. Now I can never get a display on my monitor again, unless I
completely reformat and restart the installation process (surely there was a
keystroke combination I could have pressed upon boot-up to force linux to
boot into text-only mode, but it wasn't apparent to me at the time what that
key-combination would be, and yes, I did try googling for it).

What's your DHCP server? I don't have one. Linux won't accept that
answer. Er, how about 192.168.0.1? Fine. Linux proceeds, but my network
stack is FUBAR. Gotta re-install. Again, there was probably some command I
could have typed, but Google and the "man pages" and the find command was
not particularly helpful to me.

The are just random anecdotes, and certainly I do NOT make the claim
that this is the "average" experience of Linux users, or that this is what
kind of experiences one should expect. I'm just saying that for every
software that exists, there also exists a user who is going to, or who
already has had, problems with it.

>
>
> And those that have spent half a day getting a system back to where
> they want it will be just as dismissive of your 'quick 30 minutes'.

Except I never claimed that people should, for example, switch from
Linux to Windows, so there isn't anything for them to dismiss! I suppose the
OP could dismiss my advice of "when advocating, think of perspective of the
people you're advocating to", and that's fine by me. I have no desire to see
Linux fail. In fact, I'd much rather have everyone switch to linux, as it
would increase the likely hood of me finding help on google when I search
for something, and increase the likelyhood that my favorite apps will get
ported over to Linux, and that I could finally switch and not have to pay
for my OS anymore. That'd be great for me! That's why I'm trying to give
advice on converting people.

>
>
> I am sure that there are millions of people using Windows with no
> problems at all, no security issues, no failures, no lock ups at all
> ever. There are, however, millions (well at least 10s of thousands) of
> people running Windows who are unknowingly zombies in spam remailing
> networks, and/or are infected with virusses and worms.

Yes, both statements can be true at the same time. No dispute here.

- Oliver

Richard

2006-03-17, 6:55 pm

HeyBub wrote:

> Common syndrome, found in religions, interventionist groups (like AA), and
> more. By convincing someone of the probable truth of your claim, your own
> decision is validated.

Religious statements like, for example:

Actually I doubt that many trust MS, nor think it a reliable company,
they just get stuck with their products on the computers they buy.
[color=darkred]
> We have many computers running Windows XP. The only unscheduled re-boot I
> can remember is when things got shut down during hurricane Rita. For those
> of us with good experiences, as you point out, we immediately suspect the
> motives and/or competence of those who XXXXX about Micros~1.

Are you saying that you don't believe anything bad about MS or their
products ?

Richard

2006-03-17, 6:55 pm

James J. Gavan wrote:

[color=darkred]
> I don't think one way or the other - just a statement of fact as to what
> occasionally appears.

So then you cannot actually say (in spite of the fact that you
disagreed) that Howard is wrong. Certainly letters appear that say the
writers are offended, the question was whether they were offended by
non-existent myths or by the actions or words of real people who
purport to follow these.

>
> I made no reference to the word 'offense'.

You made reference to the subject of being offended.

> As to your imaginary readers
> - the paper verifies people *do* exist before publishing - e-mail
> address, telephone #, name and address.

I was obviously too subtle for you: ""offended by something he doesn't
believe exists"" --> ""readers letters"".

Richard

2006-03-17, 6:55 pm

Oliver Wong wrote:

>
> From the OP's post:
> <quote>
> Anyone who has *anything* important running on their computers...
> should *never* use a program from Mi$uck to do it. Instead, they
> should get a program from a *reliable* and *trustworthy* software
> company.
> </quote>
>
> To me, that's more than merely "I run Linux/Mac/whatever, and

As I said, he was not promoting any particular system, even though he
was advocating to not use Windows.

> incidentally, millions of people have problems with Windows."

It is _not_ 'incidental' that millions have actual and serious problems
with Windows.

> times, still no luck. Couldn't get my Mandrake account setup, and so I
> couldn't update my software. Spent several days on the problem before giving
> up.

Was that a problem with the OS or the web site ?

> (surely there was a
> keystroke combination I could have pressed upon boot-up to force linux to
> boot into text-only mode, but it wasn't apparent to me at the time what that
> key-combination would be, and yes, I did try googling for it).

Yes there is, but you don't even need to do that. Usually there are 8
'consoles' available with only one started with the GUI, Use
Ctrl-Alt-Fn to switch to a text mode console and log in as root there.
The GUI is usually running on console 7 so Ctrl-Alt-F7 put you back to
KDE or Gnome or whatever.

> What's your DHCP server? I don't have one. Linux won't accept that
> answer. Er, how about 192.168.0.1? Fine. Linux proceeds, but my network
> stack is FUBAR. Gotta re-install.

If you don't run a DHCP server then, just as with Windows, you specify
a manual address for the machine and its gateway and DNS server (eg
your ISP).

And, no you don't need to reinstall, just as with Windows, you
configure the network to take a fixed IP address and set the gateway
and DNS. Unlike Windows there is no need to reboot to take the new
settings.

> Again, there was probably some command I
> could have typed, but Google and the "man pages" and the find command was
> not particularly helpful to me.

Most distros have GUI configuration for network and most other stuff,
but the command line is ifconfig if you need for scripted
reconfiguration (which I do). cf Windows ipconfig which was copied
from BSD when they used the TCP/IP stack from that OS.

> The are just random anecdotes, and certainly I do NOT make the claim
> that this is the "average" experience of Linux users, or that this is what
> kind of experiences one should expect. I'm just saying that for every
> software that exists, there also exists a user who is going to, or who
> already has had, problems with it.

Absolutely. Linux users have to know what they are doing, but Windows
users can specify the wrong video card driver too and screw up their
system. When XP came all the icons and menus changed, I had to relearn
where everything was (when I was forced to) and this was no different
from going to anther OS.

>
> Except I never claimed that people should, for example, switch from
> Linux to Windows, so there isn't anything for them to dismiss!

No, but you did dismiss his 'all afternoon', and I dismiss your claim
it could be done in 30 minutes.

HeyBub

2006-03-17, 6:55 pm

Richard wrote:
>
> Are you saying that you don't believe anything bad about MS or their
> products ?

No, of course not. I am saying that I don't believe unsubstantiated CLAIMS
of badness. What's the rule? "Don't attribute to malovelence (on the part of
Micros~1) that which can be explained by incompetence (by the end user)." Or
maybe it's vice-versa.

On the other hand, I did get a $1,600.00 checky-poo from Micros~1 last year
as a "bonus dividend" for my piddly 2000 shares.

James J. Gavan

2006-03-17, 6:55 pm

Richard wrote:
> James J. Gavan wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> So then you cannot actually say (in spite of the fact that you
> disagreed) that Howard is wrong. Certainly letters appear that say the
> writers are offended, the question was whether they were offended by
> non-existent myths or by the actions or words of real people who
> purport to follow these.
>
>
>
>
> You made reference to the subject of being offended.
>
>
>
>
> I was obviously too subtle for you: ""offended by something he doesn't
> believe exists"" --> ""readers letters"".
>
Instead of playing word games let's agree to disagree, but I'll try and
make this real simple for you.

Firstly full marks to the Calgary Herald and Naomi Lakritz, to whom I've
already referred. US born her father was a GP in the States - her
political ideology grew from her childhood. She saw her father turn away
patients because they couldn't pay. She, on a w

ly basis writes an
interesting, easily read and provocative column on various current
topics - there's little of what she writes that I would disagree with.

The Herald and Naomi make a point of posting 'interesting' letters and
they don't balk at 'interesting' rebuttals. (I don't know - but I'd put
my money on the possibility that Naomi doesn't go near a synagogue.
Surprisingly, she has just done a book review - in the title the word
'Jesus' occurs).

Letters get posted on a variety of topics, possibly, environment,
women's rights to control their own bodies, same sex-marriages, the
legal system, (by no mean restricted to some of the controversials I
have listed). The respondents are easy to identify - whether the
original letter made inference, direct or indirect to *anything*
associated with the word 'religion'. They are from the secular world,
(people who may have been church/temple/mosque-goers as kids and have
given up on religion, agnostics or atheists - sometimes identifying
themselves as such).

In their definition of democracy the word 'religion' is an absolute
No-No. "Practice what you want, but not religion". Responses for the
most part are very often sarcastic/terse, a few have a vindictive tone.
Sometimes I check their names to confirm the authors - the letters might
just have easily been written by a Richard Plinston.

'Here endeth the lesson'. No more from me.

Jimmy

Richard

2006-03-17, 9:55 pm

James J. Gavan wrote:

> Instead of playing word games

You mean, for example:

[color=darkred]
> Letters get posted on a variety of topics, possibly, environment,
> women's rights to control their own bodies, same sex-marriages, the
> legal system, (by no mean restricted to some of the controversials I
> have listed). The respondents are easy to identify - whether the
> original letter made inference, direct or indirect to *anything*
> associated with the word 'religion'. They are from the secular world,
> (people who may have been church/temple/mosque-goers as kids and have
> given up on religion, agnostics or atheists - sometimes identifying
> themselves as such).

Only 'sometimes' identifying as such, is it just a guess that the rest
are or do you have voices telling you that the rest are too ?

> In their definition of democracy the word 'religion' is an absolute
> No-No. "Practice what you want, but not religion". Responses for the
> most part are very often sarcastic/terse, a few have a vindictive tone.
> Sometimes I check their names to confirm the authors - the letters might
> just have easily been written by a Richard Plinston.

People are offended by many different things. The local Music TV
station shows South Park. The local chapter of the 'Cult of Mary'
started complaining that the episode 'Bloody Mary' was going to be
shown in a couple of months time, and it should be banned. C4 responded
by rescheduling to show it that w

and had the highest ratings ever.
Not only that but many said they stayed on that channel to watch the
Pink Floyd doco and will return to see the 'classic albums series' they
didn't know about before.

What _I_ objected to was that the religionists wanted to have control
over what _I_ could watch. Not that I wanted to see South Park, but I
object to 'book burning'.

Richard

2006-03-17, 9:55 pm

HeyBub wrote:

>
> No, of course not. I am saying that I don't believe unsubstantiated CLAIMS
> of badness. What's the rule? "Don't attribute to malovelence (on the part of
> Micros~1) that which can be explained by incompetence (by the end user)." Or
> maybe it's vice-versa.

So it is the _users_ fault that Windows has security problems, viruses,
spyware, backdoors, design flaws, and general failures.

Actually, if you had read the original instead of knee-jerking, you
would have noticed that the claim was that the company was unreliable
and untrustworthy, as substanciated in courts of law.

> On the other hand, I did get a $1,600.00 checky-poo from Micros~1 last year
> as a "bonus dividend" for my piddly 2000 shares.

Yes, I do know why you deify Bill Gates.

Pete Dashwood

2006-03-17, 9:55 pm

without rebooting (it is on a laptop and sometimes I leave it in
Tauranga switched on while I am away in Auckland.) I come back and do NOT
have to reboot it. It simply wakes up and continues like it should.

In the workoplace, (We are running XP) I often go for several w

s without
rebooting. My workstation has never crashed. XP Pro is a stable and useful
Operating System and the FIRST from MicroSoft that I have ever been happy
with.

The point about all this is that, as Oliver pointed out, "one swallow does
not make a Summer."

We all have our preferences and in the end, whatever works for us is fine. I
am currently looking to replace the laptop with a platform that can run
Vista. That doesn't mean I'm uninterested in Linux... it just means I have
no reason to leave MicroSoft.

(BTW, I loved your thousand boots joke, Richard... :-))
>
>
> Actually he said system. This would also include all the software that
> he needed beyond the bare OS. Also he said NT which does take longer
> than XP. And then you have to apply all the patches and service packs
> to try to make it less vulnerable to infection by malware, turn off all
> the annoyances, configure the applications, restore the backed up
> files.
>
>
> And those that have spent half a day getting a system back to where
> they want it will be just as dismissive of your 'quick 30 minutes'.
>
>
> I am sure that there are millions of people using Windows with no
> problems at all, no security issues, no failures, no lock ups at all
> ever. There are, however, millions (well at least 10s of thousands) of
> people running Windows who are unknowingly zombies in spam remailing
> networks, and/or are infected with virusses and worms.
>
Hmmm... and none of the above would apply to people using Macs and
Unix/Linux...?

I'm one of the millions with no issues, but that doesn't mean I am a
fanatical MS supporter (or detractor...). I go with what works. If Vista
turns out to be a heapof crap I'll be on Linux or some other box faster than
you can say "fickle user".:-) It is nice to have options...

Pete.

Pete Dashwood

2006-03-17, 9:55 pm

"Peter Lacey" <lacey@mts.net> wrote in message
news:441B2A4A.1CD9439F@mts.net...
> Richard wrote:
>
>
> It may be interesting to note that there is a whole computing universe
> out there in which many of these problems simply don't occur. I'll
> instance two machines that were absolutely bullet-proof when it came to
> lockups or programs interfering with each other or memory leaks or
> crashing the system. None of these ever happened, so long as the
> machine was not physically malfunctioning. These were the IBM S/36, and
> the various systems running PRIMOS. IBM, of course, was once the
> biggest computer company in the known universe, but Prime, although it
> got into the top 500 for a while, has long since vanished and never had
> resources comparable to IBM. My point is that such operating systems
> can and have been built. Whether the difference is in the resources, or
> the ability and span of control of the people in charge of the
> development, or even the architecture of the machines, doesn't matter -
> if it can be done at all, it ought to be achievable by all!
>
> I imagine that AS/400's are pretty tough, too. How about IBM or Unisys
> mainframes?
>
> (A Prime systems engineer told me that he'd heard of a couple of virus
> attempts. But nothing ever came of them. I'm not claiming immunity
> from viruses is possible - any system can be cracked, I imagine, if the
> necessary effort is taken).
>
> (I do most of my work under WIN98 because that's what the PC came with
> and I don't want the aggravation of upgrading and new problems (that's
> to say, not before I have to!) It is stable enough for what I need and
> will run everything that I need. Yet it locks up every couple of days,
> sometimes when switching from one app to another, sometimes after trying
> to to wake up from standby. After standby, I can't print - although
> that may be a driver problem, not a MS problem; still that can hardly be
> a situation that wasn't anticipated. And sometimes it won't shut down!)
>
So, it ISN'T really "stable enough for what I need and will run everything
that I need." is it? Because it won't do it all of the time. If you need it
to work at a time when it is locking up, it isn't meeting your needs. It IS
stable enough for you to get useful work from it, but it is far from perfect
or even "pretty good".

What happens is that we all come to accept what our systems do and find
workarounds for the problems.

I understand your hesitance to upgrade (been there myself...). I often build
PCs for friends and charities where the user doesn't have much available
cash, so I scrounge old boxes and bits and pieces. Win 98 (SE, NOT ME) was a
very good OS but XP is much more stable. I used to immediately effect an
upgrade to XP until I found that some of the old boxes simply couldn't
support it. Win98 will run reasonably happily in 64MBs; XP won't. So then it
becomes a memory upgrade. (Sometimes with older boxes, the memory is very
hard to get...). Then you find that a 5 year old HD is starting to throw bad
sectors and getting nearer to its MTBF so you might want to replace that.
Even if you can acquire a smaller (say 10 GB) hard drive for a nominal sum
(I found a computer shop in Tauranga the other day who let me have one they
had removed from an old machine for $15 (when they knew I was doing it for a
worthy cause)), there are still risks.

The one I'm proudest of is a system I built for a disabled lady who wanted
to do a remote study writing course. She has a fully functioning XP system
with XP Office (all legal) that connects over broadband, and the whole
system cost $NZ104. So far it has performed flawlessly for about 3 months; I
have my fingers crossed... :-) All of the hardware was begged borrowed or
recycled from other old systems that were non-functional. It took me 30
hours to get the bits and build it. :-)

The bottom line is that if you have a machine running Win 98, you are
PROBABLY better to bite the bullet and replace the whole thing, than attempt
to upgrade.

Pete.

Pete Dashwood

2006-03-17, 9:55 pm

"Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1142645679.425173.137050@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>
> James J. Gavan wrote:
>
>
> You mean, for example:
>
>
>
> Only 'sometimes' identifying as such, is it just a guess that the rest
> are or do you have voices telling you that the rest are too ?
>
>
> People are offended by many different things. The local Music TV
> station shows South Park. The local chapter of the 'Cult of Mary'
> started complaining that the episode 'Bloody Mary' was going to be
> shown in a couple of months time, and it should be banned. C4 responded
> by rescheduling to show it that w

and had the highest ratings ever.
> Not only that but many said they stayed on that channel to watch the
> Pink Floyd doco and will return to see the 'classic albums series' they
> didn't know about before.
>
I didn't know about the 'Cult of Mary'... is that for real, or do you mean
Roman Catholics...:-)?

I missed the episode of Bloody Mary (probably the only person in NZ who did;
next day everyone in my team had seen it and none were offended. (I've
described elsewhere, it is a very multicultural and diversely ethnic team).

I rarely watch C4, (I'm not in their target age group and I find the noise
offputting), but I do watch South Park (and have since the first series) and
I do go to channel 4 for Beavis and Butthead and Jackass if there is nothing
else on and I can't be bothered doing anything constructive. I find both of
these mildly amusing and sometimes actually funny.

I was interested in your point about the 'Classic Albums' series. I only
found it by accident on C4 but was blown away by Fleetwood Mac 'Rumours' and
'Bat out of Hell', which have always been two of my personal favourites.
Sorry I missed the Pink Floyd one (it was on the same night as Bloody Mary'
I think?)

I really hope this series becomes available on DVD as the ones I've seen
were outstanding.

> What _I_ objected to was that the religionists wanted to have control
> over what _I_ could watch. Not that I wanted to see South Park, but I
> object to 'book burning'.
>
Yep. Me too. (Although I do enjoy South Park. It went a bit flat as they
seemed to run out of ideas a while back, but the latest ones have been
funny; I especially enjoyed the one about the vote for school mascot... some
pertinent observations there :-)).

Pete.

2006-03-18, 3:55 am

In article <4818m5Fh69inU1@individual.net>,
Pete Dashwood <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:

[snip]

>The one I'm proudest of is a system I built for a disabled lady who wanted
>to do a remote study writing course. She has a fully functioning XP system
>with XP Office (all legal) that connects over broadband, and the whole
>system cost $NZ104. So far it has performed flawlessly for about 3 months; I
>have my fingers crossed... :-) All of the hardware was begged borrowed or
>recycled from other old systems that were non-functional. It took me 30
>hours to get the bits and build it. :-)

This reminds me of a put-it-together-yourself file cabinet I helped a
physician I know assemble back in the early 1990s. This stuff has
improved since then and now it's more difficult to attach part B to part D
instead of hooking it to part C, where it belongs... and we'd knock a few
pieces together, realise we'd done the wrong ones, take it apart, set it
aright...

.... all in all it took us about three hours. Sipping our Pilsner Urquels
and gazing upon the finished product the doctor mused 'You know... between
the cost of your time and mine that is, per cubic inch, probably the most
expensive piece of furniture in this house.'

DD

Joe Zitzelberger

2006-03-18, 3:55 am

In article <121m6i8ggoeng8b@news.supernews.com>,
"HeyBub" <heybubNOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:

> Oliver Wong wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>
> Common syndrome, found in religions, interventionist groups (like AA), and
> more. By convincing someone of the probable truth of your claim, your own
> decision is validated.
>
> We have many computers running Windows XP. The only unscheduled re-boot I
> can remember is when things got shut down during hurricane Rita. For those
> of us with good experiences, as you point out, we immediately suspect the
> motives and/or competence of those who XXXXX about Micros~1.

I am glad your OS of choice finally seems to be over the frequent
reboot, periodic reinstall phase of its development life cycle. But I
would also point out that it took about 18 years for Windows to get that
point of stability.

(and all the while, everyone using stable OSes was forced to listen to
the collective bitching and moaning of Windows users)

No other product in the history of humanity has such a poor track record
of "good experiences" for its users...

Pete Dashwood

2006-03-18, 6:55 pm

<docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:dvgjem$aaq$1@reader2.panix.com...
> In article <4818m5Fh69inU1@individual.net>,
> Pete Dashwood <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
> This reminds me of a put-it-together-yourself file cabinet I helped a
> physician I know assemble back in the early 1990s. This stuff has
> improved since then and now it's more difficult to attach part B to part D
> instead of hooking it to part C, where it belongs... and we'd knock a few
> pieces together, realise we'd done the wrong ones, take it apart, set it
> aright...
>
> ... all in all it took us about three hours. Sipping our Pilsner Urquels
> and gazing upon the finished product the doctor mused 'You know... between
> the cost of your time and mine that is, per cubic inch, probably the most
> expensive piece of furniture in this house.'
>
LOL! Very true... sometimes we have to donate our time and then it is beyond
price :-)

I was very impressed to see you drank Pilsner Urquels :-) This could be
considered the "original" lager beer. Pilsen used to be part of Germany and
is where they invented what is referred to in Germany as 'Pils' and in
England as 'lager'. (Although no English lagers that I know of are brewed
according to the Reinheitsgebot (purity laws formulated in the 17th century
in Germany, and forbidding the adulteration of beer with anything other than
hops, malt, yeast and water. Sadly, 'lager' is simply chemical beer, and
contains enzymes, rice, and fillers and they brew a batch of it in around 2
days. In Germany it takes three w

s of natural fermentation.)

I have visited the town of Pilsen (now in the Czech Republic) and found it
to be very interesting.

I drink Pilsner Urquels whenever I can get my hands on it, but, in NZ, that
is not very frequently... :-(

Pete.
> DD
>

Donald Tees

2006-03-18, 6:55 pm

Pete Dashwood wrote:
> <docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:dvgjem$aaq$1@reader2.panix.com...
>
>
> LOL! Very true... sometimes we have to donate our time and then it is beyond
> price :-)
>
> I was very impressed to see you drank Pilsner Urquels :-) This could be
> considered the "original" lager beer. Pilsen used to be part of Germany and
> is where they invented what is referred to in Germany as 'Pils' and in
> England as 'lager'. (Although no English lagers that I know of are brewed
> according to the Reinheitsgebot (purity laws formulated in the 17th century
> in Germany, and forbidding the adulteration of beer with anything other than
> hops, malt, yeast and water. Sadly, 'lager' is simply chemical beer, and
> contains enzymes, rice, and fillers and they brew a batch of it in around 2
> days. In Germany it takes three w

s of natural fermentation.)
>
> I have visited the town of Pilsen (now in the Czech Republic) and found it
> to be very interesting.
>
> I drink Pilsner Urquels whenever I can get my hands on it, but, in NZ, that
> is not very frequently... :-(
>
> Pete.
>
I also recently did a similar thing ... I put a system together for a
drop-dead geourgeus thirty year old lady, and blew a few doobs with her
as I taught her to use it. Indeed it can be very gratifying.

Donald

Pete Dashwood

2006-03-18, 6:55 pm

"Joe Zitzelberger" <zberger@knology.net> wrote in message
news:zberger-25DBFE.04433618032006@ispnews.usenetserver.com...
> In article <121m6i8ggoeng8b@news.supernews.com>,
> "HeyBub" <heybubNOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I am glad your OS of choice finally seems to be over the frequent
> reboot, periodic reinstall phase of its development life cycle. But I
> would also point out that it took about 18 years for Windows to get that
> point of stability.
>
> (and all the while, everyone using stable OSes was forced to listen to
> the collective bitching and moaning of Windows users)
>
> No other product in the history of humanity has such a poor track record
> of "good experiences" for its users...

Oh, I dunno, Joe...:-)

what about :

1. The Edsel. (A monument to ugliness.)
2. The Pinto. (At least Windows doesn't blow your arse off when it
crashes...)
3. The NCR 500.(First machine I ever programmed. I still occasionally dream
about it... nightmares.)
4. Any trip with Magic Bus. (I nearly took a job driving this from Kathmandu
to London, once. It should be called "Miracle Bus", not "Magic Bus"...:-))
5. Any trip with Air France.
6. The Pol Pot regime.
7. Consultancy from Arthur Andersen.
8. Insurance from Phoenix.
9. The Starfighter. (German joke, after many of them crashed in training...
How do you get a Starfighter? Buy a field and wait...)
10. Matai beer. (This was invented by the Maori before Europeans arrived. It
is made from the fermented berries of a native tree called the matai. I
drank some once (and they weren't even holding a gun on me at the time...)
in a part of NZ called Taranaki, where men are men and women are glad... It
is certainly the foulest tasting stuff you could ever imagine. I reckon the
haka was invented to try and shake off the taste of it. It's the kind of
beer that is SO bad you don't even think: "Man, this beer is bad; I'll be
glad when I've had enough..." Best avoided.
11. The PSION II organiser. (Batteries could be relied on to fail at
absolutely the most inopportune time. You had around 20 seconds to get the
old battery out and the new one in. The pressure was immense, resulting in
dropped batteries, lost data, and, on one occasion I witnessed in Australia,
the device being hurled across the room with a string of invective.)
12. A Frank Ifield concert.
13. Women's cricket.
14. Posting code to CLC...
15. MicroFocus VISOC. (Not the product; what they did with it...)
16. Anything that happens on ice, with the possible exception of hockey, and
female 'ice dancing' solos.
17. The food in Sweden.
18. The wine in Tunisia.
19. Visiting France.
20. Any Lada car PRIOR to the takeover by Volkswagen.

All of the above are pretty much unlikely to produce a 'good experience' for
their users. Personally, I'd rather use Windows than have any of the above
inflicted on me :-)

Pete.

LX-i

2006-03-18, 6:55 pm

Richard wrote:
> LX-i wrote:
>
>
> Well I think that it is irrational to think that there are only two
> viewpoints, but then religionists typically do try to create a
> dichotomy where none exists in an attempt to claim, or at least imply,
> that if one is not true then the other must be.

That quote doesn't claim to cover all the bases. There are plenty of
people who don't believe in the God I do, but they're not offended by
the fact that I believe He exists.

>
> Are you offended by the hundreds of deities that you don't believe in ?
>
> Are you offended by Rastas; Scientoloist Thetans; Hindu's Brahma,
> Vishnu, Shiva and the rest; the Canaanite Pantheon; Shintu Gods; and
> the others ?

Nope.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \ / ~ Live from Montgomery, AL! ~
~ / \/ o ~ ~
~ / /\ - | ~ daniel@thebelowdomain ~
~ _____ / \ | ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e ~
~ h---- r+++ z++++ ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Who is more irrational? A man who believes in a God he doesn't see, or
a man who's offended by a God he doesn't believe in?" - Brad Stine

LX-i

2006-03-18, 6:55 pm

Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 20:02:23 -0600, LX-i <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>
> I've never seen someone offended by something he doesn't believe
> exists.

See Newdow, Michael.

> I've seen people offended by people whose beliefs are
> different from theirs. Wars are fought over this.

And a cold war is being waged in this country over our traditions even
as we speak. Will it ever become hot? Who knows?

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \ / ~ Live from Montgomery, AL! ~
~ / \/ o ~ ~
~ / /\ - | ~ daniel@thebelowdomain ~
~ _____ / \ | ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e ~
~ h---- r+++ z++++ ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Who is more irrational? A man who believes in a God he doesn't see, or
a man who's offended by a God he doesn't believe in?" - Brad Stine

LX-i

2006-03-18, 6:55 pm

James J. Gavan wrote:
> Firstly full marks to the Calgary Herald and Naomi Lakritz, to whom I've
> already referred. US born her father was a GP in the States - her
> political ideology grew from her childhood. She saw her father turn away
> patients because they couldn't pay. She, on a w

ly basis writes an
> interesting, easily read and provocative column on various current
> topics - there's little of what she writes that I would disagree with.
>
> The Herald and Naomi make a point of posting 'interesting' letters and
> they don't balk at 'interesting' rebuttals. (I don't know - but I'd put
> my money on the possibility that Naomi doesn't go near a synagogue.
> Surprisingly, she has just done a book review - in the title the word
> 'Jesus' occurs).

Did that happen to be _Misquoting Jesus_? (That's a book that claims
that several parts of the New Testament aren't "real" - not a stretch
for some...)

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \ / ~ Live from Montgomery, AL! ~
~ / \/ o ~ ~
~ / /\ - | ~ daniel@thebelowdomain ~
~ _____ / \ | ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e ~
~ h---- r+++ z++++ ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Who is more irrational? A man who believes in a God he doesn't see, or
a man who's offended by a God he doesn't believe in?" - Brad Stine

LX-i

2006-03-18, 6:55 pm

docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
> This reminds me of a put-it-together-yourself file cabinet I helped a
> physician I know assemble back in the early 1990s. This stuff has
> improved since then and now it's more difficult to attach part B to part D
> instead of hooking it to part C, where it belongs... and we'd knock a few
> pieces together, realise we'd done the wrong ones, take it apart, set it
> aright...
>
> ... all in all it took us about three hours. Sipping our Pilsner Urquels
> and gazing upon the finished product the doctor mused 'You know... between
> the cost of your time and mine that is, per cubic inch, probably the most
> expensive piece of furniture in this house.'

Heh - boy, I can identify with that...

I read something about time management one time that laid out a way to
determine how much one minute of your time was worth. Then, when you
had a choice between, say, buying a bike in a box and assembling it
yourself vs. paying the $10 to buy it assembled, you could compare
apples to apples. It was a pretty good concept.

(not that I've been able to implement a *lot* of the good concepts I've
read...)

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \ / ~ Live from Montgomery, AL! ~
~ / \/ o ~ ~
~ / /\ - | ~ daniel@thebelowdomain ~
~ _____ / \ | ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e ~
~ h---- r+++ z++++ ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Who is more irrational? A man who believes in a God he doesn't see, or
a man who's offended by a God he doesn't believe in?" - Brad Stine

HeyBub

2006-03-18, 6:55 pm

Richard wrote:
> HeyBub wrote:
>
>
> So it is the _users_ fault that Windows has security problems,
> viruses, spyware, backdoors, design flaws, and general failures.

Pretty much. Viruses, for example don't miracle themselves into a PC (in
spite of Bill Gates being, in the eyes of some, a god).

>
> Actually, if you had read the original instead of knee-jerking, you
> would have noticed that the claim was that the company was unreliable
> and untrustworthy, as substanciated in courts of law.

So, is it the company or their products (or both), you find lacking?

If you mean your post alleging Windows will only run 39 days and, since no
one had been able to keep Windows running that long, the bug was never
found, I attributed that to hyperbole. I can find no Google reference to
such a condition. Moreover, I just stepped over to two of our test machines
(one running Win98, the other running Win95). Both, I'm almost certain, have
been running for at least several months. Neither were "locked up." If you
can cite a reputable basis for your claim, I'd like to hear it. Else I'll
conclude the assertion was merely a "knee-jerk" reaction.

As for "courts of law" being unbiased arbiters of truth: bah!

>
>
> Yes, I do know why you deify Bill Gates.

Pretty smart of me, isn't it?

James J. Gavan

2006-03-18, 6:55 pm

LX-i wrote:
> James J. Gavan wrote:
>
>
>
> Did that happen to be _Misquoting Jesus_? (That's a book that claims
> that several parts of the New Testament aren't "real" - not a stretch
> for some...)
>
>
Nope. Even forgotten context. Written by a catholic author, was offering
a 'sensible look' at Jesus, (still can't recall overall message of
book). What I found pleasing was that somebody who was Jewish was able
to offer a critical and favourable analysis. I suppose if I actually
wrote to her, she would respond, "Well, He *was* one of us" :-)

Jimmy

Richard

2006-03-18, 6:55 pm

Pete Dashwood wrote:

> 20. Any Lada car PRIOR to the takeover by Volkswagen.

That would be the Skoda you are thinking of.

Richard

2006-03-18, 6:55 pm

LX-i wrote:
[color=darkred]
> That quote doesn't claim to cover all the bases.

I can agree that those two groups are both irrational, I am just not in
either of them ;-)

> There are plenty of
> people who don't believe in the God I do, but they're not offended by
> the fact that I believe He exists.

But that is _not_ what the quote says. As I pointed out before, that is
discussing being offended or not by _your_ actions.

[color=darkred]
> Nope

And would you be offended if followers of those religions attempted to
get their dogma taught to your children in schools, or tried to control
what books you could read or what TV programs could be shown ?

Clark Morris

2006-03-18, 6:55 pm

On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 03:01:09 +1200, "Pete Dashwood"
<dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:
(Windows is the product referred to)
[color=darkred]
>
>Oh, I dunno, Joe...:-)
>
>what about :
>
>1. The Edsel. (A monument to ugliness.)
>2. The Pinto. (At least Windows doesn't blow your arse off when it
>crashes...)
>3. The NCR 500.(First machine I ever programmed. I still occasionally dream
>about it... nightmares.)
>4. Any trip with Magic Bus. (I nearly took a job driving this from Kathmandu
>to London, once. It should be called "Miracle Bus", not "Magic Bus"...:-))
>5. Any trip with Air France.
>6. The Pol Pot regime.
>7. Consultancy from Arthur Andersen.
>8. Insurance from Phoenix.
>9. The Starfighter. (German joke, after many of them crashed in training...
>How do you get a Starfighter? Buy a field and wait...)
>10. Matai beer. (This was invented by the Maori before Europeans arrived. It
>is made from the fermented berries of a native tree called the matai. I
>drank some once (and they weren't even holding a gun on me at the time...)
>in a part of NZ called Taranaki, where men are men and women are glad... It
>is certainly the foulest tasting stuff you could ever imagine. I reckon the
>haka was invented to try and shake off the taste of it. It's the kind of
>beer that is SO bad you don't even think: "Man, this beer is bad; I'll be
>glad when I've had enough..." Best avoided.
>11. The PSION II organiser. (Batteries could be relied on to fail at
>absolutely the most inopportune time. You had around 20 seconds to get the
>old battery out and the new one in. The pressure was immense, resulting in
>dropped batteries, lost data, and, on one occasion I witnessed in Australia,
>the device being hurled across the room with a string of invective.)
>12. A Frank Ifield concert.
>13. Women's cricket.
>14. Posting code to CLC...
>15. MicroFocus VISOC. (Not the product; what they did with it...)
>16. Anything that happens on ice, with the possible exception of hockey, and
>female 'ice dancing' solos.

Curling seems to be popular here in Canada and a large number of
people seem to enjoy it.

>17. The food in Sweden.

I liked the Swedish food when I was there. What did you find
unsatisfying about it?

>18. The wine in Tunisia.
>19. Visiting France.

I have enjoyed all three of my visits to France and that is as a US
citizen with very little ability to speak French. What turned you
off?

>20. Any Lada car PRIOR to the takeover by Volkswagen.
>
>All of the above are pretty much unlikely to produce a 'good experience' for
>their users. Personally, I'd rather use Windows than have any of the above
>inflicted on me :-)
>
>Pete.
>

Richard

2006-03-18, 6:55 pm

HeyBub wrote:

>
> Pretty much. Viruses, for example don't miracle themselves into a PC

Actually, they do. Tests done with Windows XP (prior to SP2) showed
that a fresh install with all MS defaults connected to the internet
would be 'pwned' within 5 minutes or so. Granted SP2 set the firewall
on.

There were many faults in Outlook that would install viruses merely by
clicking on an email, and it was necessary to click to delete it.

Merely visiting sites would be enogh to become infected.

Servers with IIS with settings as per MS install, would propagate many
trojans and viruses.

Even playing a music CD from Sony would install a rootkit without the
user being even aware of it.

> If you mean your post alleging Windows will only run 39 days and, since no
> one had been able to keep Windows running that long, the bug was never
> found, I attributed that to hyperbole. I can find no Google reference to
> such a condition.

It was actually 49.6 days now that I check. This is when the timer tick
would overflow the size of an integer and the system would lockup. The
problem was fixed by a patch and was fixed in 98 SE.

> As for "courts of law" being unbiased arbiters of truth: bah!

Oh quite, much better to rely on Bush to tell us 'The Truth!!'. ;-)

>
> Pretty smart of me, isn't it?

But then you have probably sent them more than that amount one way or
another.

2006-03-18, 9:55 pm

In article <482ij3Fi1pp7U1@individual.net>,
Pete Dashwood <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>
><docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:dvgjem$aaq$1@reader2.panix.com...

[snip]

>LOL! Very true... sometimes we have to donate our time and then it is beyond
>price :-)
>
>I was very impressed to see you drank Pilsner Urquels :-)

Shucks... you'se jes' easily impressed. Glad you enjoyed!

DD

LX-i

2006-03-18, 9:55 pm

Richard wrote:
> LX-i wrote:
>
>
> But that is _not_ what the quote says. As I pointed out before, that is
> discussing being offended or not by _your_ actions.

But why would worshipping a non-existent deity be offensive? (IMO,
there are lots of religions that do this. :> In your opinion, they all
do!)

>
>
> And would you be offended if followers of those religions attempted to
> get their dogma taught to your children in schools, or tried to control
> what books you could read or what TV programs could be shown ?

Depends on how it's done. First off, I don't think government should be
in the business of education, and I don't send my children to government
schools. But, I wouldn't have a problem with them learning *about*
other religions.

Books/TV are a different matter. Again, "control" is a broad term. I
don't think that the government should control those sorts of things
with an iron fist. However, the need does exist (as has been
demonstrated) for some protection for children. I'm against any books
or films being outright banned; but, reasonable controls (such as the
movie rating system we have in place here, though it's becoming useless
(every movie *can't* be PG-13)) are needed.

(I'd rather not get more detailed in that, because it would only divert
this thread into a long, long, long social issue discussion, which has
occurred here before. Of course I think my own feelings are reasonable;
but, if you don't, we'll just have to agree to disagree.)

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \ / ~ Live from Montgomery, AL! ~
~ / \/ o ~ ~
~ / /\ - | ~ daniel@thebelowdomain ~
~ _____ / \ | ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e ~
~ h---- r+++ z++++ ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Who is more irrational? A man who believes in a God he doesn't see, or
a man who's offended by a God he doesn't believe in?" - Brad Stine

HeyBub

2006-03-18, 9:55 pm

LX-i wrote:
> James J. Gavan wrote:
>
> Did that happen to be _Misquoting Jesus_? (That's a book that claims
> that several parts of the New Testament aren't "real" - not a stretch
> for some...)

I'm almost done with "Misquoting Jesus." Nothing new there, but he does
gather into one volume the problems with early transcriptions and
translations. An observation I thought was interesting was the reverse of
Occam's Razor.

One way of stating Occam's Razor is: "When presented with two explanations,
the simpler one is usually correct." In comparing early biblical texts,
reverse the rule: the more complex text is closer to the original. It seems
as if early copyists tried to simplify complex arguments and changed the
received text to match their understandings.

As for not being "real," well there are two answers for that: In the
Catholic tradition, the New Testament is a mere artifact. The real authority
belongs with the Church as an institution and dogma is Church determined. In
the non-catholic tradition, "God would not have allowed a corruption of His
word. Any 'changes' to the received text were done with his blessing. We
have, today, exactly what He wants us to have" is the operative theory.

HeyBub

2006-03-19, 3:55 am

Richard wrote:
>
>
> Oh quite, much better to rely on Bush to tell us 'The Truth!!'. ;-)

I figure since God couldn't be president, Bush is the next best choice.

>
>
> But then you have probably sent them more than that amount one way or
> another.

Well, actually, since I'm a "Micros~1 Partner," they've sent me, oh, easily,
$50,000 worth of usable software. Heck, just in January alone, I got:

Business Contact Manager
CRM 3.0 Small Business Edition
Exchange Server 2003
Office Professional 2003
SQL Server 2005 Standard (10 licenses)
Visual Basic 2005 Express (10 licenses)
Visual Web Developer 2005 Express (10 licenses)

This was on top of the stuff I'd already received. XP-Pro, ISA Server 2004,
SBA 2006, XP-Pro64, and bunches of other stuff.

Richard

2006-03-19, 3:55 am

LX-i wrote:

[color=darkred]
>
> But why would worshipping a non-existent deity be offensive?

That is _still_ not what the quote says.

> (IMO, there are lots of religions that do this. :> In your opinion, they all
> do!)

Interesting that you think that you can state my opinion for me. In
fact I see that Rastas was a real person that was deified and
worshipped (did I mention that Ras Tafari presented my Grandfather with
a lion skin cloak in Aden in 1922), Hirihito was officially a 'god'
until the allies made him not be in 1945, Chin was a real person and a
deity.

In fact I see no reason at all why all the deities were not real
people: warlords, chiefs, ancestors, charasmatic leaders. Jehovah even
specified that the Jews must build him a house that he may dwell
amongst them. Sounds like a real person to me. Dead now of course,
just like all the others. The stories are greatly exagerated, but if
you want to believe some fantasy mythology, that's OK.

At the time, of course, they were worshipping someone who was real and
alive, or perhaps Jehovah was more of a dynasty, a succession of
'lords' (cf the House of Lords in the UK - territorial leaders with
inheretable titles).

No, I don't think that you are worshipping something that _never_
existed, just as the Rastafarians worshipped a real person, but he
doesn't exist any more, their church keeps up the pretense. The Jews,
of course, have a real reason to maintain the covenant, and thus keep
up the idea that the other party to the contract is still around: their
very nationhood and land depends on it.

> (I'd rather not get more detailed in that, because it would only divert
> this thread into a long, long, long social issue discussion, which has

Well I wasn't actually interested in your answer, only in having you
think about what would happen if, say, the muslims had a say in what
the laws were.

Pete Dashwood

2006-03-19, 6:55 pm

"Clark Morris" <cfmtech@istar.ca> wrote in message
news:h7go12dh993g1au08btvkcgdd56hbdjls7@
4ax.com...
> On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 03:01:09 +1200, "Pete Dashwood"
> <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:
> (Windows is the product referred to)
>
>
> Curling seems to be popular here in Canada and a large number of
> people seem to enjoy it.
>
Yeah, right... It's 'popular' here in NZ too. Many people here watched
curling during the Winter Olympics. Some of them stayed up past their
bedtimes and some of them missed having their poultices changed... :-)
Bowls is bad enough. Having a couple of people racing down preparing the ice
in front of the oncoming stone seems to me to kind of defeat the object of
the game. (Given that the object is a match of skill on the part of the
people releasing the stones...) Could you imagine a couple of blokes with
motor mowers doing the same in Lawn Bowls... :-)

>
> I liked the Swedish food when I was there. What did you find
> unsatisfying about it?
>

It is great if you enjoy 17 different preparations of herring and smoked
salmon. :-) I need meat and potatoes... :-)

>
> I have enjoyed all three of my visits to France and that is as a US
> citizen with very little ability to speak French. What turned you
> off?
>

Don't start me :-). OK, I'll give you France (you're bloody welcome to
it...:-)) Beautiful country; spoiled by being full of Frenchmen. (The girls
are OK... I had a French girlfriend for about 9 months and she was a
sweetheart.) Seriously, if you enjoyed your visits, good. I accept that my
problem with this country and these people is exactly that...my problem :-)
The roots of it and the reasons for it are far too much to go into detail
here; all I will say is that I have been antipathetic to them as a nation
(on an individual basis, I would treat them with the same respect I try to
afford all people) since I was a student in the 60s, and they tested their
bloody bombs in our backyard.

(Our entire economy in those days was based on agriculture (lamb, wool,
butter, and cheese) and it's pretty hard on farmers when they have to pour
their product down the drain because it glows in the dark...:-) (OK that was
poetic license, but the levels of Strontium 90 were such that millions of
gallons of milk DID have to be scrapped. It was pretty heartbreaking for a
small country dependent on these products.) When asked nicely to desist (not
just by us; the whole pacifc rim) and offered alternative underground
facilities by the US, they scathingly declined, contending that France must
have her own nuclear deterrent. (But of course, they wouldn't test the
weapons in France...) Shortly after that they slunk off out of NATO, and a
few years later some of their agents blew up a Greenpeace ship (Rainbow
Warrior) in Auckland harbour, killing a photographer who was sleeping on
board. They considered it was OK to commit this act of terrorism in a
friendly port, on a peaceful ship, that was moored at the dock minding its
own business, because Rainbow Warrior had sailed into the test zone and
caused delays to their nuclear program. They have never apologised, the
agents responsible were feted as heroes and decorated at the Elysee Palace,
after being surrendered to the French on the understanding they would serve
their terms in French jails rather than NZ ones, and they have done
everything possible to block NZ exports to the EU and di

vantage us
wherever possible.

Sorry, I could write a book about this... :-) One of the very few times I
have been ashamed to be a Kiwi was when we saw our Prime Minister (Helen
Clark) embracing the French President in the hope that he might let us have
better access to the EU for lamb. No apology for Rainbow Warrior, no
contingencies, or conditions, just humiliating herself (and us, as our
representative) in the hopes of a deal. Of course it never happened, and if
she had taken the trouble to study some history, she would have known it was
never going to happen.

The only thing they ever got right was champagne, and they stole that idea
from an Englishman :-)

[color=darkred]
As Richard pointed out, that should have been SKODA.
[color=darkred]
Pete.

Alistair

2006-03-19, 6:55 pm

Richard wrote:
>
> Interesting that you think that you can state my opinion for me. In
> fact I see that Rastas was a real person that was deified and
> worshipped (did I mention that Ras Tafari presented my Grandfather with
> a lion skin cloak in Aden in 1922)

Yes, you did.

>
> At the time, of course, they were worshipping someone who was real and
> alive, or perhaps Jehovah was more of a dynasty, a succession of
> 'lords' (cf the House of Lords in the UK - territorial leaders with
> inheretable titles).

You are a bit behind the times. We have dis-established the majority of
the inherited titular lords and are left with a 'stump' House of Lords
with a mix of inherited titles and lifetime appointees.

Alistair

2006-03-19, 6:55 pm

Pete Dashwood wrote:
> <docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:dvgjem$aaq$1@reader2.panix.com...
>
> I was very impressed to see you drank Pilsner Urquels :-) This could be
> considered the "original" lager beer. Pilsen used to be part of Germany and
> is where they invented what is referred to in Germany as 'Pils' and in
> England as 'lager'.

We also have pils but that seems to just denote strength rather than
method.

(Although no English lagers that I know of are brewed
> according to the Reinheitsgebot (purity laws formulated in the 17th century
> in Germany, and forbidding the adulteration of beer with anything other than
> hops, malt, yeast and water. Sadly, 'lager' is simply chemical beer, and
> contains enzymes, rice, and fillers and they brew a batch of it in around 2
> days. In Germany it takes three w

s of natural fermentation.)

Greene King used to brew Harp lager in 24 hours (no wonder it was
tasteless schlock). When I used to do home-brew, the better beers and
wines were the slow fermentation brews.

I drink lots of chemical beer when I can afford it (I am a lager-lout,
bitter-lout and a stout-lout) but prefer Czech Budweiser Budvar over
Urquell Pilsner.

Alistair

2006-03-19, 6:55 pm

LX-i wrote:
> docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
> Heh - boy, I can identify with that...
>
> I read something about time management one time that laid out a way to
> determine how much one minute of your time was worth. Then, when you
> had a choice between, say, buying a bike in a box and assembling it
> yourself vs. paying the $10 to buy it assembled, you could compare
> apples to apples. It was a pretty good concept.
>

And you can get the measure of inflation by comparing an item's
purchase price in Mars bars today compared with ye golden dayse of
yore. IIRC, cars are cheaper today than in the fifties. Unfortunately,
the price of Mars bars is held steady by adjusting the weight of the
delivered product.

Alistair

2006-03-19, 6:55 pm

Pete Dashwood wrote:
> "Joe Zitzelberger" <zberger@knology.net> wrote in message
> news:zberger-25DBFE.04433618032006@ispnews.usenetserver.com...
>
> Oh, I dunno, Joe...:-)
>
> what about :
>
> 1. The Edsel. (A monument to ugliness.)
> 2. The Pinto. (At least Windows doesn't blow your arse off when it
> crashes...)
> 3. The NCR 500.(First machine I ever programmed. I still occasionally dream
> about it... nightmares.)
> 4. Any trip with Magic Bus. (I nearly took a job driving this from Kathmandu
> to London, once. It should be called "Miracle Bus", not "Magic Bus"...:-))
> 5. Any trip with Air France.
> 6. The Pol Pot regime.
> 7. Consultancy from Arthur Andersen.
> 8. Insurance from Phoenix.
> 9. The Starfighter. (German joke, after many of them crashed in training...
> How do you get a Starfighter? Buy a field and wait...)
> 10. Matai beer. (This was invented by the Maori before Europeans arrived. It
> is made from the fermented berries of a native tree called the matai. I
> drank some once (and they weren't even holding a gun on me at the time...)
> in a part of NZ called Taranaki, where men are men and women are glad... It
> is certainly the foulest tasting stuff you could ever imagine. I reckon the
> haka was invented to try and shake off the taste of it. It's the kind of
> beer that is SO bad you don't even think: "Man, this beer is bad; I'll be
> glad when I've had enough..." Best avoided.
> 11. The PSION II organiser. (Batteries could be relied on to fail at
> absolutely the most inopportune time. You had around 20 seconds to get the
> old battery out and the new one in. The pressure was immense, resulting in
> dropped batteries, lost data, and, on one occasion I witnessed in Australia,
> the device being hurled across the room with a string of invective.)
> 12. A Frank Ifield concert.
> 13. Women's cricket.
> 14. Posting code to CLC...
> 15. MicroFocus VISOC. (Not the product; what they did with it...)
> 16. Anything that happens on ice, with the possible exception of hockey, and
> female 'ice dancing' solos.
> 17. The food in Sweden.

If that is a reference to the French comments about British cuisine
being the second worst in Europe then you should have been referring to
Finland (the worst cuisine). I like swedish meatballs so I can not
believe that you really meant Sweden.

> 18. The wine in Tunisia.
> 19. Visiting France.

Except when passing through?

> 20. Any Lada car PRIOR to the takeover by Volkswagen.
>
> All of the above are pretty much unlikely to produce a 'good experience' for
> their users. Personally, I'd rather use Windows than have any of the above
> inflicted on me :-)
>
> Pete.

Alistair

2006-03-19, 6:55 pm

Pete,

As a Francophobe you might enjoy these jokes:

Three guys, an Englishma