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Something has to be tested and maintained was Re: GoTo in Java
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| Clark Morris 2006-10-30, 9:55 pm |
| My comments on the following from months back are top posted with
nothing interspersed. As someone who is a modifier and reworker of
existing systems, I won't really learn or understand Java or OO until
I work with it which at my age may be never. However, I strongly
believe that we in the field have failed to understand that scripts
are code, control parameters be they sort control statements or table
entries in a package are code and in fact anything used to control the
manipulation of data is code. The systems that you describe in several
of your postings scare me in many ways. I hope that whatever tool or
tool set was used to create these applications with just drag and drop
combining of components also produced the documentation to say what
was done so that when the business changes some poor soul has a
fighting chance of figuring out where to make the change(s) to what
was done. I also hope that the development tools contain adequate
means to handle the needed testing and not just unit testing.
The use of control parameters, control tables, etc. is powerful and
allows the use of generalized packages such as operating system of
choice or affliction, SAP or Oracle Financials, word processing
packages, etc.. While some of these are bounded, others especially in
house systems have no checking on them. Older portions of operating
systems can be equally vulnerable to loose change mechanisms as I can
testify from experience on IBM's MVS. I have nothing against
languages and tools that operate at higher levels of abstraction. At
least in theory they can be expressing things in ways that are closer
to the description of the process to be implemented. The use of
documented components is also a good thing and something that I am
used to as a former systems programmer although not with some of the
niceties of the OO paradigm. If these tools also are more
self-documenting, especially to non-programmers, that too is something
I applaud.
However the idea of something being unchanging and never needing
upgrade is not in keeping with the world as I know it. Determining
the pervasiveness of a change and whether it should affect all
processing is something that probably has not been well thought in the
past. I am used to a mainframe environment where a subroutine change
is picked up by all users (COBOL programs compiled with the DYNAM
option binding CALLed routines at execution time rather than link time
if they are not nested programs) upon implementation. This has
implications for retrospective processing. The advantage is that an
organization wide change takes effect immediately. The di vantage
is that a changed routine is immediately available to all callers. OO
does not change the underlying dilemma. The question is whether you
want the invoker/caller to pick up a changed version when it issues
the initial invoke/call for an execution unit or if you want to use a
new name or parameter to make any changed behaviour explicitly
requested.
On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 12:35:21 +1300, "Pete Dashwood"
<dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>
>"Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote in message
>news:1138390683.396793.322920@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I've been following this thread with some interest and I understand what
>Oliver is trying to do. It is a noble idea, but I think Richard has hit the
>nail on the head in this (and previous) posts.
>
>The effort involved in source transalation, and the risks, do not match the
>rewards.
>
>The point that is being missed entirely here is that the real solution is to
>NOT maintain source code. (In any language...)
>
>Because of its COBOL and procedural programming roots, this forum is excited
>by language discussions and the problems attached to source languages. Yet I
>see people every day, with no knowledge of ANY programming labguage (apart
>from scripting, which is not maintained in the traditional sense of code
>maintenance) producing really impressive applications that run on the web,
>access databases, share information, and produce reports.
>
>Component based development means you write code once and do NOT maintain
>it. (I know there are many places that don't adhere to this and they try and
>maintain the components. There is only marginal gain over a normal source
>code maintaining shop if you do this.) The idea is to decompose
>functionality to lower levels than has traditionally been the case, write
>flexible generalised solutions to these low level functions then leave them
>alone! All you have to do is build the components into applications. You
>should never change a component once it is written and its methods, events
>and properties are established. If you need to 'enhance' it write a wrapper
>that interfaces to it and extends it for that specific case, or write a new
>component.
>
>The true benefits of code reuse are not gained if you keep rewriting the
>code. Encapsulate functionality and reuse it. Do it once; do it right.
>
>Fortunately, modern evironments are so component rich (even though many
>people do not realise the thousands of components that are provided free
>with your OS) that people are starting to simply plug things together and
>achieve impressive results. Scripts do not require thousands of lines of
>procedural code to achieve what WOULD require thousands of lines of
>procedural code, and maintenance is not a problem.
>
>The rule of source code is over. The future belongs to object code. It will
>be developed (once :-)) in whatever language is most appropriate for it and
>things like ILs and CLRs will level the playing field. I have one
>application where components written in VB, C++, and PowerCOBOL all play
>together nicely on a single windows screen. The user is unaware of what the
>functionality is written in (and doesn't care), and I have NEVER changed
>these components in any way. (I couldn't if I wanted to, because I don't
>have the source for some of them...) This application has been live for
>several years, has had enhancements made to it, and has had some minor
>changes to its functionality. New screens have been added and some of the
>components mentioned appear on the new screens as well (there is only ever
>one copy of them in the system). The less source code you have to look
>after, the less risk to your investment.
>
>Maintining source code is yesterday's technology.
>
>Having said that, I do realise that 'today' we have a huge investment in
>procedural source that HAS to be maintained so I don't think this discussion
>is pointless...:-)
>
>But I also think people need to start thinking 'beyond the square'. Todays
>kids are doing it. In 50 years the idea of sitting down and 'programming' a
>computer line by line, will be a quaint curiosity, like us using flint tools
>or speaking Latin in the Supermarket.
>
>Pete.
>
>
>
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2006-10-30, 9:55 pm |
|
"Clark Morris" <cfmtech@istar.ca> wrote in message
news:3gtuj2hgm7roiraii0526t4avd5p7t6a8h@
4ax.com...
> My comments on the following from months back are top posted with
> nothing interspersed. As someone who is a modifier and reworker of
> existing systems, I won't really learn or understand Java or OO until
> I work with it which at my age may be never. However, I strongly
> believe that we in the field have failed to understand that scripts
> are code, control parameters be they sort control statements or table
> entries in a package are code and in fact anything used to control the
> manipulation of data is code.
They are indeed. Congratulations on your insight.
> The systems that you describe in several
> of your postings scare me in many ways.
Not sure who 'you' is in the above sentence, but, in case it is me, I'll
respond quickly...
Being scared by new approaches is a perfectly normal reaction; must of us
are anxious when we move out of our comfort zones. I am not an Evangelist,
preaching anything or trying to convert the masses. I'm not on commission,
not trying to flog any particular software, and I really don't care any more
whether people here take up what I'm saying.
For a decade now I have been advocating that COBOL people expand their skill
sets, embrace OO, get to understand component technology, look again at
traditional development methodology, make themselves more marketable and
lever their COBOL knowledge into the 21st Century. Some have; most haven't.
I feel sorry when I see people here watching their jobs disappearing
overseas. But, it was predictable and it didn't happen overnight.
What I post here is based entirely on my own perceptions and experiences. It
works for me. I try to explain why it works, in the hope that others can
benefit, but I am finally coming to the conclusion that most of what I'm
saying is simply being perceived through a fog of pre-judgement and
measurement against 'what we've always done', rather than open-minded
assessment and experiment.
I am on record as saying that maintenance of source code is self defeating.
Instead of trying to grasp what I'm getting at (and I've spelled it out
several times here) it has been easier for people to say: "Well, we've
ALWAYS maintained source code. That's what COBOL is good for. How could you
possibly maintain a system if you DIDN'T change the source code?" (the last
sentence is rhetorical because 'everybody knows' maintenance is impossible
without changing code...)
And yet, I have built systems that use functional encapsulation and object
orientation to ensure that their methods (behaviours) and properties (public
and private data) DON'T need to be changed. Some of these systems have been
live for over 5 years now and have had functionality added and amended
WITHOUT changing existing source code, and WITHOUT having to regression test
every module or program when new functionality is added.
It CAN be done; it just can't be done if you continue the same approaches
that have been used for the last forty years.
If you decide to change one room of a brick house do you grind up the
existing bricks and make them into new bricks? Why would you do that? The
existing bricks are fine, they just need to be organised differently and
maybe some new ones added. Maybe you'll have some bricks left over from the
previous design. Perhaps you can use these to build a barbeque... The point
is that a brick is a brick; it has the attributes and behaviours of a brick.
There is no point in trying to change an existing brick into a corner brick
(although you CAN do so and some companies do this; I believe it defeats the
purpose of using bricks in the first place). And once a brick is made, it
remains a brick forever. Don't try and sharpen it or round it; make sharper
or rounder bricks for that. (You will find it is easy to modify the existing
mould for this)
> I hope that whatever tool or
> tool set was used to create these applications with just drag and drop
> combining of components also produced the documentation to say what
> was done so that when the business changes some poor soul has a
> fighting chance of figuring out where to make the change(s) to what
> was done.
Why is it always 'the poor soul' at 3 in the morning who has do maintenance?
:-) Doesn't maintenance ever get done in working hours?
The tool sets I referred to DO generate documentation and they do it
graphically and on-line. You can instantly see the structure of any given
project and the relationships between the various objects. (You may have
seen the diagrams generated by MS ACCESS if you click the 'Relationships'
option... the principle is similar.)
Just coming back to the environment you are used to for a minute, when was
the last time you went to a filing cabinet and retrieved a program listing
so you could look at what it did? Not recently...? No, we all learned
pretty quickly that what was filed with the documentation was pretty useless
for maintining the program. The current source stored in the system is the
ONLY definitive documentation that is worth a damn. It is exactly the same
with objects.
The processes I use for development ensure that the designs are documented
as they are developed, and the system documents the objects, noting each
method, property, and event, and the relationships between components. Help
files for each Class are also built. There is no reason why an OO system
should be any less 'documented' than a non-OO one, but the emphasis should
be on USEFUL documentation, rather than documentation for the sake of having
somethig in a filing cabinent.
> I also hope that the development tools contain adequate
> means to handle the needed testing and not just unit testing.
>
Naw... debug it in live... that's my motto... :-)
> The use of control parameters, control tables, etc. is powerful and
> allows the use of generalized packages such as operating system of
> choice or affliction, SAP or Oracle Financials, word processing
> packages, etc.. While some of these are bounded, others especially in
> house systems have no checking on them. Older portions of operating
> systems can be equally vulnerable to loose change mechanisms as I can
> testify from experience on IBM's MVS. I have nothing against
> languages and tools that operate at higher levels of abstraction. At
> least in theory they can be expressing things in ways that are closer
> to the description of the process to be implemented. The use of
> documented components is also a good thing and something that I am
> used to as a former systems programmer although not with some of the
> niceties of the OO paradigm. If these tools also are more
> self-documenting, especially to non-programmers, that too is something
> I applaud.
So why does it scare you?
>
> However the idea of something being unchanging and never needing
> upgrade is not in keeping with the world as I know it.
Absolutely. The observable universe is apparently dynamic. No less so when
it comes to business...
The question is not whether things need to change; they do. The question is
HOW to manage those changes.
Personally, I don't think that altering procedural code is an ideal way to
do it. The act of altering it introduces more chance of error. Just because
that was the only option for several decades doesn't mean that it is right.
Now we have alternative choices. We can encapsulate functionality into
fundamental units (components). They do what they do. Ask a radio engineer
about the last time he modified a given pcb or chip... He didn't. Everything
is modular and encapsulated... even the integrated stuff...input, process,
output... component technology analogised at an engineering level. (Software
engineering could do well to look at electrical engineering...)
> Determining
> the pervasiveness of a change and whether it should affect all
> processing is something that probably has not been well thought in the
> past. I am used to a mainframe environment where a subroutine change
> is picked up by all users (COBOL programs compiled with the DYNAM
> option binding CALLed routines at execution time rather than link time
> if they are not nested programs) upon implementation. This has
> implications for retrospective processing.
Yes, it does. Even though it is probably the best approach to managing that
particular environment.
> The advantage is that an
> organization wide change takes effect immediately. The divantage
> is that a changed routine is immediately available to all callers. OO
> does not change the underlying dilemma.
It depends on how you implement the OO. It CAN change the underlying dilemma
if you implement it so that there are no changes to any existing interfaces.
No changed parameter lists; everything calls what it always did, in exactly
the way that it always did. The new functionality is simply a new method
call.
Although invoked objects CAN have parameters passed to them, I don't
personally do this. Instead, I use GET and SET on the properties before (and
after) invoking the method I want.
It would take too long to go into the subtle details of why this is
important, here, but the main benefit is that if interfaces don't change,
then regression testing can be avoided. New functionality is turned on by
new properties being set; the same method works exactly as it did before,
for the cases where these properties are NOT set... Previous code executes
exactly as it did previously (it has not been amended), but new code can use
the same method to achieve a different result by setting properties before
it is invoked. The new code can be added as a new method that wraps the
existing method so that code and functionality is not duplicated. The
details and examples are more than I am prepared to post here, but I'll
gladly help anyone who's interested, if they contact me.
> The question is whether you
> want the invoker/caller to pick up a changed version when it issues
> the initial invoke/call for an execution unit or if you want to use a
> new name or parameter to make any changed behaviour explicitly
> requested.
Exactly. See above.
Some further comments after the interesting discussion on code translation
below...[color=darkred]
>
> On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 12:35:21 +1300, "Pete Dashwood"
> <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>
It's a bit like saying: "Don't vote; the Government will get in..."
Procedural source is procedural source and it really doesn't matter what
language you translate it into. The problem is not with the language, it is
with the paradigm.
[color=darkred]
Can't believe I wrote that...:-) (It was a NZ Government slogan many years
ago, probably buried in my subconconscious...nevertheless, I stand by what I
wrote above.)
[color=darkred]
OK, that's really everything I need/want to say about this... :-)
Disagree with me if you want (and I know many here do) but that is what I
think, and I honestly believe the next breakthrough will be 'smart
components' that will come with pre-programmed concepts... But that's
another story, and the sun is shining here and I don't have to work so I'm
off to the beach... :-)
Pete.
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