Cobol - Re: religion

Author

Re: religion

Alistair

2006-01-12, 6:55 pm

docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
> In article <1137101437.003563.306290@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> *No*, Mr Maclean... not 'no longer exists, if only 'now' exists then a
> past *cannot* exist.
>
> What can I do to make this more clear?
>
> DD

I think it is perfectly clear. You can not handle an existence in which
there is NOW and MEMORIES of NOT NOW. The non-existence of time and the
memory of times not now are not mutually incompatible. I apologize if
it seems that I can not define the concept in as precise and
non-quibbable a fashion as possible but, as I have already apologized
elsewhere, I don't have the necessary grasp of the language to carry
across the concept.

2006-01-12, 9:55 pm

In article <1137105304.217221.214160@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
>I think it is perfectly clear. You can not handle an existence in which
>there is NOW and MEMORIES of NOT NOW.

I seem to handle that without too much difficulty, Mr Maclean, as it
represents what I call the world around me. What I have difficulty
reconciling is your posited universe where 'all that exists is now' (your
words) and in such a universe anything other than 'now' existing. If all
that exists is 'now' then 'not now' and memory cannot exist. Consider:

'Imagine a universe where everything is cottage cheese. Now if you take
your hand...'

'Wait a moment. If everything is cottage cheese then neither I nor my
hand exist, all that exists is cottage cheese.'

'I think it is perfectly clear. You can not handle an existence in which
ONLY COTTAGE CHEESE and THAT-WHICH-IS-NOT-COTTAGE-CHEESE.'

Only 'now', Mr Maclean... no past or memories, no future or predictions.

DD

Oliver Wong

2006-01-13, 9:55 pm

<docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:dq6vl7$4js$1@reader2.panix.com...
>
> 'Imagine a universe where everything is cottage cheese. Now if you take
> your hand...'
>
> 'Wait a moment. If everything is cottage cheese then neither I nor my
> hand exist, all that exists is cottage cheese.'
>
> 'I think it is perfectly clear. You can not handle an existence in which
> ONLY COTTAGE CHEESE and THAT-WHICH-IS-NOT-COTTAGE-CHEESE.'
>
> Only 'now', Mr Maclean... no past or memories, no future or predictions.

I can think of one way for a universe, without time but with memories,
to exist depending on how relaxed you allow me to get with the definition of
"memories"...

Imagine an intelligent creator (not nescessarily so omnipotent that he
can overcome logic) who chose to create a timeless universe which is an
exact replica of the state of the universe at this very moment. There would
be a planet whose inhabitants refer to as "Earth", there would exist humans
sitting a computers, reading newsgroup postings, and some of them might be
in the process of thinking. Others will be in the process of accessing their
memories. Since this universe is timeless, the states will never change.
I.e. the people who are thinking will "never" finish their thoughts. The
people who are retrieving their memories will "never" actually retrieve
them. The people who have "already" retrieved their memories will have those
memories stuck in their minds "forever".

One could argue that since this universe has no past, these things in
the people's mind aren't memories at all. Or perhaps they are memories, but
implanted by the creator. They are memories of events that "never happened"
(or which happened in an alternative universe, one *with* time). Or one
could argue that memories are nothing more than a byproduct of the state of
the neurons in one's brain, and as long as the neurons are indeed in a valid
state (as designed by our ID), then yes, memories exist.

It's similar to considering someone in the process of speaking. The
particles of air have certain values for momentum... That is, they "want" to
move, if only time existed. Does this mean sound, defined as a fluctuation
of pressure in a medium, exist? Is it still a wave, if it is frozen in time?

If we choose to define sound as the perception of the fluctuations in
pressure, rather than the fluctuations themselves, at what point does it
become sound? As soon as the eardrum organ detects the change? During the
period in which the ear drum is communicating with the brain? During the
period in which neurons in the brain are communicating with each other about
the signals from the eardrum? After the mind has already acknowledges the
presence of this sound?

- Oliver

2006-01-13, 9:55 pm

In article <6MPxf.79762$AP5.13644@edtnps84>,
Oliver Wong <owong@castortech.com> wrote:
><docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:dq6vl7$4js$1@reader2.panix.com...
>
> I can think of one way for a universe, without time but with memories,
>to exist depending on how relaxed you allow me to get with the definition of
>"memories"...
>
> Imagine an intelligent creator (not nescessarily so omnipotent that he
>can overcome logic) who chose to create a timeless universe which is an
>exact replica of the state of the universe at this very moment. There would
>be a planet whose inhabitants refer to as "Earth", there would exist humans
>sitting a computers, reading newsgroup postings, and some of them might be
>in the process of thinking. Others will be in the process of accessing their
>memories. Since this universe is timeless, the states will never change.
>I.e. the people who are thinking will "never" finish their thoughts. The
>people who are retrieving their memories will "never" actually retrieve
>them. The people who have "already" retrieved their memories will have those
>memories stuck in their minds "forever".
>
> One could argue that since this universe has no past, these things in
>the people's mind aren't memories at all. Or perhaps they are memories, but
>implanted by the creator. They are memories of events that "never happened"
>(or which happened in an alternative universe, one *with* time). Or one
>could argue that memories are nothing more than a byproduct of the state of
>the neurons in one's brain, and as long as the neurons are indeed in a valid
>state (as designed by our ID), then yes, memories exist.
>
> It's similar to considering someone in the process of speaking. The
>particles of air have certain values for momentum... That is, they "want" to
>move, if only time existed. Does this mean sound, defined as a fluctuation
>of pressure in a medium, exist? Is it still a wave, if it is frozen in time?
>
> If we choose to define sound as the perception of the fluctuations in
>pressure, rather than the fluctuations themselves, at what point does it
>become sound? As soon as the eardrum organ detects the change? During the
>period in which the ear drum is communicating with the brain? During the
>period in which neurons in the brain are communicating with each other about
>the signals from the eardrum? After the mind has already acknowledges the
>presence of this sound?
>
> - Oliver
>
>

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