Home > Archive > Cobol > September 2005 > Management wars
You are viewing an archived Text-only version of the thread.
To view this thread in it's original format and/or if you want to reply to
this thread please [click here]
|
|
| Pete Dashwood 2005-09-06, 9:55 pm |
|
I read the thread on command line arguments and was quite surprised to see
the hostility manifested towards 'managers'.
Richard gave some very sound and clear advice that was within the framework
of what was requested. Michael was attacked for having been a manager, which
seems to me, no basis for attack. Some others were accused of 'management'
approaches in that they did not really understand the problem they were
responding to, and had simply looked for a summary. The Doc described a
management experience that made me have a sharp intake of breath.
The whole thread made me think about the perception of 'managers' by tech
staff.
Looking back over my own career, I can see managers who were excellent, who
grew themselves and their staff, and who showed by example really good ways
to motivate and encourage tech people. The ones who were not like that (I
can think of a couple) simply did not progress. (One of them remained in the
same job at the same middle management level for over 20 years, becoming
more and more bitter and twisted and finally actually working against the
company until he got fired. It couldn't happen to a nicer guy...)
It's hard to believe, I know, but I'll confess it here... I was not always
the easiest guy to manage....:-)
Eventually, like most people who are trying to advance a career, I got my
comeuppance by being pushed to the other side of the table and having to
deal with brash, intelligent, tech people who gave me every bit as hard a
time as I had given my managers. What goes around comes around... :-)
I'd like to pose a few questions for open discussion in this thread, if
anybody feels so inclined.
1. What is your personal attitude to your management? Do you see them as a
bunch of wankers who have no idea what's going on or is required, no
understanding of the problems you have to grapple with every day, and just
an unnecessary departmental overhead because a trained monkey could do their
job?
2. Do you have any aspirations to ever be management? Why? Why not?
3. Could your attitude affect your management? (d'you think...?)
4. Would you do exactly what is specified in say, a program spec., even if
you knew it was wrong, and would cause major disruption to downstream
processing? How would you deal with this situation (if at all)?
5. In meetings, do you speak your mind and to Hell with them if they don't
like it, or do you tend to pussyfoot for the sake of annual review? Would
you modify your language depending on the level of management present? Why?
Why not?
6. Are you gleeful when your manager is in trouble?
7. Does your manager socialise with you on occasion? Is it comfortable or
would you rather they didn't?
8. If you screwed up, would you look for support from your manager or would
you make every effort to hide your blunder or divert attention from it until
you could fix it, if you could fix it?
The above are designed to help you realise that, if you have bad management,
there is every possibility that you actually deserve them...:-)
The next step is to look at what can be done about improving your
management.
Yes, it is actually possible for you, as an unempowered, lower life form,
grunt, to actually make a difference. I'll cover it after we see the
responses to the above, if there are responses to the above... :-).
Pete.
| |
|
| Pete Dashwood wrote:
> I'd like to pose a few questions for open discussion in this thread, if
> anybody feels so inclined.
Why not - beats watching CNN's report on how filthy the water now in New
Orleans is... :(
> 1. What is your personal attitude to your management? Do you see them as a
> bunch of wankers who have no idea what's going on or is required, no
> understanding of the problems you have to grapple with every day, and just
> an unnecessary departmental overhead because a trained monkey could do their
> job?
I've seen both. The best managers I've encountered had a background in
*doing* before ascending into management. A Captain (prior enlisted)
was probably the most go-get-'em boss we had. Our current manager is a
retired E-8 (one from the top). Both have a management style that suits
me - they know I know what needs to be done, and for the most part, they
leave me alone and let me do it. :)
> 2. Do you have any aspirations to ever be management? Why? Why not?
I wouldn't mind it, although I think I'd still have trouble keeping my
hands out of it. I just enjoy this stuff too much. Of course, if I
still have stuff I'm doing on the side, maybe that would keep me satisfied.
> 3. Could your attitude affect your management? (d'you think...?)
Of course. :) As I get older, I find myself having less toleration for
incompetence and laziness. (On a side note, I can't stand myself these
days! ;> )
> 4. Would you do exactly what is specified in say, a program spec., even if
> you knew it was wrong, and would cause major disruption to downstream
> processing? How would you deal with this situation (if at all)?
I wouldn't do it. A spec should be *what* they want done, not *how*
they want it done. If what they want is what will cause this
disruption, I would make these concerns known, and I'd hope that we'd
have enough of a relationship that they would take my concerns seriously.
If they were hard-headed, I'd ensure we built in as many safety nets as
possible to avoid the negative consequences, and provide recovery from
them quickly.
> 5. In meetings, do you speak your mind and to Hell with them if they don't
> like it, or do you tend to pussyfoot for the sake of annual review? Would
> you modify your language depending on the level of management present? Why?
> Why not?
I speak my mind. (This probably comes as a surprise, I know...) I may
do it more politically, depending on the audience.
> 6. Are you gleeful when your manager is in trouble?
It depends on the type of manager. If they're reaping what they've
sown, I don't shed too many tears. If they're being scapegoated, that
upsets me.
> 7. Does your manager socialise with you on occasion? Is it comfortable or
> would you rather they didn't?
They come around from time to time, and we have office socials
occasionally. It doesn't bother me - I enjoy it.
> 8. If you screwed up, would you look for support from your manager or would
> you make every effort to hide your blunder or divert attention from it until
> you could fix it, if you could fix it?
That depends on the level of the blunder and how easily it can be fixed.
I actually did a big "oops" (well, it wasn't really my *fault*, but I
was the one who did it - so, it didn't matter if it didn't work the way
the manual said it would). My big oops got compounded about 50 times,
when test settings for compiles ended up in the mainstream compile logic.
I explained what I had done to my boss, he went to the customer's boss,
and I stayed late rolling the changes back out and rebuilding all the
programs that had picked up the bad code. They weren't really upset
with me over that, but now, when I suggest implementing something
similar (now that I'm more familiar with the "gotcha"s), it's always met
with pessimism.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \ / ~ Live from Montgomery, AL! ~
~ / \/ o ~ ~
~ / /\ - | ~ daniel@thebelowdomain ~
~ _____ / \ | ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e ~
~ h---- r+++ z++++ ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
|
| All comments here are my own and are not representative of any company that
is traded on the NYSE.
All comments here are my own and I reserve the right to correct, withdraw or
clarify any statement without notice.
"Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3o6sd6F4ij6lU1@individual.net...
>
> I read the thread on command line arguments and was quite surprised to see
> the hostility manifested towards 'managers'.
If you consider the words aimed at Michael to be representative to be
hostile, and he to be "managers" :-)
There is nothing unusual about the progression of most thread.
A reasonable question is asked.
A reasonable solution is presented.
A somewhat valid disagreement was found with the solution.
A rebuttal was made using commonly accepted definitions of words like "like"
and "as I did on the mainframe" with a hint of condescension.
A response was formed with a touch of bitterness
Another person joins in with a slightly more visible tone of condescension.
Someone gets angered
Then some vitriol is added so we find some arbitrary thing to pick on
[Michael is a manager...they're all idiots]
DocDwarf inserts a story about his grandmother - may she rest with angels...
Someone answers with a question......
> Richard gave some very sound and clear advice that was within the
> framework of what was requested. Michael was attacked for having been a
> manager, which seems to me, no basis for attack.
Most attacks are without basis.
There is nothing unusual about the progression of most threads - I could
prove this by mentioning Iraq right here, right now ;-)
> Some others were accused of 'management' approaches in that they did not
> really understand the problem they were responding to, and had simply
> looked for a summary. The Doc described a management experience that made
> me have a sharp intake of breath.
Much of what he says has that effect.
> The whole thread made me think about the perception of 'managers' by tech
> staff.
It is less interesting the other way around because we all find out what our
managers think of us at some point.
Most tech people are overpaid for what they accomplish - they laugh at the
robustness of Windows (stupid thing crashed again, piece of crap bloatware -
the audacity of charging $100) yet they load a huge VSAM file into memory
and perform illogical code functions and size a single program to read and
write a file at 3 w s to write and test at a cost of $15,000. I think
management is sort of a manifestation of the Microsoft Complex.
People hate it when I say that. I know at least one contributor of this
forum who will have blood boiling in his veins on reading that.
> Looking back over my own career, I can see managers who were excellent,
> who grew themselves and their staff, and who showed by example really good
> ways to motivate and encourage tech people.
A manager should not need to motivate. That's the result of a deficiency in
their employees.
There is difficulty in defining what a manager should do - and it's
different based more on circumstances than it is on people. If a manager is
critical they should be critical to all. If they are soft, they should be
soft to all. There is wiggle room in *private*. Have you ever seen a chef
run a restaurant? Have you ever seen a coach of a professional sports team
[there's no crying in baseball]?
The role of a manager is to understand the requirements placed on their
staff, the expectations placed on their staff and to ensure it happens and
to make sure that the expectations are reasonable and understood by the
employees. It is this understanding that determines the success of the
relationship.
> The ones who were not like that (I can think of a couple) simply did not
> progress. (One of them remained in the same job at the same middle
> management level for over 20 years, becoming more and more bitter and
> twisted and finally actually working against the company until he got
> fired. It couldn't happen to a nicer guy...)
I have seen a number of managers get "demoted" and it usually resulted from
one of two things.
1) The position was taken "to progress" without understanding that with that
comes additional responsibilities *including* fixing the last managers
problems (auditors/customers don't care if you weren't the manager at the
beginning.) It is only a cushy job when times are good...but they go bad
real quick.
2) They couldn't reconcile their staff's level of competence with their own
and subsequently put too much pressure on their employees. I think this is
a case of six of one, half a dozen of the other. The staff member should
know clearly the expectations, and work harder. A manager expecting 7
hours of work is not asking too much.
> It's hard to believe, I know, but I'll confess it here... I was not always
> the easiest guy to manage....:-)
> Eventually, like most people who are trying to advance a career, I got my
> comeuppance by being pushed to the other side of the table and having to
> deal with brash, intelligent, tech people who gave me every bit as hard a
> time as I had given my managers. What goes around comes around... :-)
I think that's my manager's feeling right now.
> I'd like to pose a few questions for open discussion in this thread, if
> anybody feels so inclined.
>
> 1. What is your personal attitude to your management? Do you see them as a
> bunch of wankers who have no idea what's going on or is required, no
> understanding of the problems you have to grapple with every day, and just
> an unnecessary departmental overhead because a trained monkey could do
> their job?
It's the employees responsibility to ensure that the manager understands
what is going on, and the managers responsibility for evaluating the success
of his team based on simple criteria.
The failure in most cases is that the simple criteria (also known as
direction/strategy/fulfillment requirements) are not met.
Unfortunately, I think that most managers do a poor job of laying out
expectations. I *expect* a lot more when I work with a senior consultant
than I do working with an entry level junior - this expectation is not
always handled correctly by management. I would like to run my company
using a more socialist method where everyone initially gets paid the same
and is expected to contribute the same. Salaries are then based on
expectations and not seniority. I have found that expectations are more or
less the same even when seniority and salaries are not.
> 2. Do you have any aspirations to ever be management? Why? Why not?
Yes - I'd be better at it than most.
No - My employees would hate me as my expectations are too high. I would
expect once a w one meeting 15 minutes :
"This w, what is hours_worked?"
"Do you deserve hours_worked pay?"
"Any ideas what you could do with the (40 - hours_worked)? to help [the
team, the company, me, you]? "
"What are your goals this w?"
"What are the impediments to those goals?"
"Let's leave early Friday and have a beer"
> 3. Could your attitude affect your management? (d'you think...?)
Err. Yes?
> 4. Would you do exactly what is specified in say, a program spec., even if
> you knew it was wrong, and would cause major disruption to downstream
> processing? How would you deal with this situation (if at all)?
I rarely do what is in a program spec even when I write one - though I
usually maintain a much higher functional level. Strict program specs take
too much creativity out of the process.
Exceptions exist where the program spec defines a strict interface. Those
that have detail specs usually fail to maintain them meaning that the
documentation is inaccurate - whereas mine is accurate even with the
flexibility.
I am a firm believer that change management is just that: change management;
it's not change prevention.
I am a firm believer that documentation should only be produced if it's
useful and used - and in that case should be accurate. I don't believe in
one document fits all needs school that so many places do.
I have refused to design a solution for a requirement that wouldn't work and
was improper accounting (not intentionally so, but sometimes sales do not
understand accounting practices).
> 5. In meetings, do you speak your mind and to Hell with them if they don't
> like it, or do you tend to pussyfoot for the sake of annual review?
Always be professional in front of customers. Period. Always be very up
front with managers, and always know more than one chain level - honesty is
appreciated. I'm fortunate insofar as I know that my manager knows his
reputation is based on what I say, as much as mine on what he says. Makes
it much easier.
As a giver of criticism I also accept criticism so that helps also.
> Would you modify your language depending on the level of management
> present? Why? Why not?
I modify my language depending on the "people" present. My language is
appropriate to what I *know* of the people I am with. I have never sworn in
front of my mother for example.
I don't swear that much - the only change I had to make was to not say
"crap" or "jesus" in front of someone who found that offensive. I didn't
mind.
> 6. Are you gleeful when your manager is in trouble?
No. My main responsibility is to make me look good. I know that is the
case when my manager looks good. I don't have time to worry about the
companies goals - I assume that my managers goals align with those and so
making him look good will allow most things to fall into place.
> 7. Does your manager socialise with you on occasion? Is it comfortable or
> would you rather they didn't?
Work is work, play is play. There are people I work with that I like to
socialize with and hate to work with - probably more common the other way
around now that I think about it.
> 8. If you screwed up, would you look for support from your manager or
> would you make every effort to hide your blunder or divert attention from
> it until you could fix it, if you could fix it?
Both depending on the size of the screw up. If it's my fault, then I don't
hide from it - if it's small I will fix it if I can (not likely now that I
have no authority to any system to execute anything).
I didn't even learn to lie when I admitted to doing things I shouldn't do
with PC's at college.....I figured I got busted, and well, may as well fess
up (two times...)...nearly got kicked out of school, and had my userids
removed, but then they looked at my records and other things I had done and
thought better of doing too much.
I am in the process of rethinking this taking responsibility thing. I used
to invoke Spartacus.. once upon a time that would work, but now it's more
each for his own which is a result of downsizing and the associated
pressures. The "broken windows" theory is also more true now....and the
"just good enough" philosophy of coding has become the "is this passable?"
philosophy so there are too many screw ups to want to take ownership of,
even if it does help the team.
> The above are designed to help you realise that, if you have bad
> management, there is every possibility that you actually deserve
> them...:-)
No. I hope that people realize that often managers make poor decisions
because they are the wrong people to make those decisions. I've always said
technical writers write manuals, not programmers; generals define the
strategy, not politicians.
There is nothing unusual about the progression of most threads - I could
prove this by mentioning Iraq right here, right now referring to the last
statement ;-)
> The next step is to look at what can be done about improving your
> management.
Unfortunately this is not true where I am. The bigger the company the
bigger the problems, the less relevant your manager on the environment -
they do what they can.
I've not had a lot of managers but I've not disliked, disrespected one yet.
I've had words about other people's :-)
I've also happened to have two of the finest managers that I have come
across - unfortunately one retired to the detriment of all, and the other
moved on due to the way that business works I guess.
The real issue in large corporations is that mantras come from way up on the
mountain and they are considered the "commandments" by some senior level
manager - and it only takes one - which then means that the flexibility is
gone (we had an issue where if we changed a single "requirement", we had to
restart the project because "CMM says that you have to manage the change"
and well, you're working off an unapproved requirements document now). I've
spent years trying to convince people to manage requirements and not
projects...doesn't happen
> Yes, it is actually possible for you, as an unempowered, lower life form,
> grunt, to actually make a difference. I'll cover it after we see the
> responses to the above, if there are responses to the above... :-).
>
> Pete.
More than ever, I've been asked [somewhat as a compliment] recently "Why do
you work here?"
I'm beginning to wonder, and that's _no_ reflection of my immediate manager.
JCE
| |
| Arnold Trembley 2005-09-07, 3:55 am |
|
Pete Dashwood wrote:
> (snip)
> I'd like to pose a few questions for open discussion in this thread, if
> anybody feels so inclined.
>
> 1. What is your personal attitude to your management? Do you see them as a
> bunch of wankers who have no idea what's going on or is required, no
> understanding of the problems you have to grapple with every day, and just
> an unnecessary departmental overhead because a trained monkey could do their
> job?
A good manager can get more useful work out of a team than a bad
manager. But a good team is easier to manage. I've had some terrible
managers and some very good managers. It's much more pleasant and
productive to work for a good manager.
I've seen bad managers get their position because they wanted a
promotion and a raise, or because no one else wanted the slot. A
good manager can be a real asset to the team, without necessarily
being able to do every team member's job.
> 2. Do you have any aspirations to ever be management? Why? Why not?
I would never want to be a manager, because then I would have to work
with budgets and project planning. It would mean not writing programs
any more, and I would really miss that. I have functioned
occasionally as a project leader, and found that it is hard work
guiding other programmers. So anyone who can do it reasonably well
deserves my respect. I'm much happier not being the boss.
> 3. Could your attitude affect your management? (d'you think...?)
It works both ways. Bad management makes for unproductive workers,
and good workers will make their manager look better. You have to be
as professional as possible, whether your manager is good or bad. So
even if you have a bad manager, you still need to support him.
> 4. Would you do exactly what is specified in say, a program spec., even if
> you knew it was wrong, and would cause major disruption to downstream
> processing? How would you deal with this situation (if at all)?
If a program spec has major problems, it's my duty to raise questions.
I don't expect to win every battle. Sometimes the issues aren't
black and white, but involve philosphical differences or technical
unknowns. Over the years I have done several assignments that I had
strong doubts about. Very few of them turned out as badly as I
feared. Some turned out much better than I expected.
> 5. In meetings, do you speak your mind and to Hell with them if they don't
> like it, or do you tend to pussyfoot for the sake of annual review? Would
> you modify your language depending on the level of management present? Why?
> Why not?
It should usually be possible to make one's views known without being
rude about it. The manager might not be aware of technical issues
that I know about. As the worker, I might not be aware of the
business issues or policies that might be driving the work assignments.
> 6. Are you gleeful when your manager is in trouble?
No. If the manager is in trouble, it's bad for the team. If the
manager is really bad and deserves to be fired, changing managers is
still very disruptive to the work.
> 7. Does your manager socialise with you on occasion? Is it comfortable or
> would you rather they didn't?
Yes. It's not good for the manager to be either too aloof or too
buddy-buddy. Whether or not it's comfortable depends a lot on the
social situation and the personalities of the manager and the worker.
> 8. If you screwed up, would you look for support from your manager or would
> you make every effort to hide your blunder or divert attention from it until
> you could fix it, if you could fix it?
The right thing to do is to take responsibility for your own actions.
Attempting to cover up your mistakes only compounds the problems. I
would tell my manager and s support from him. I would still have
to fix the problem anyway.
>
> The above are designed to help you realise that, if you have bad management,
> there is every possibility that you actually deserve them...:-)
In 25 years, I have worked for several managers who have been fired.
In one case I took a job at a different company to escape. In another
case, I transferred to a different team within the same company.
Other times I have just tried to do my best and wait it out until a
new manager was brought in. I've had several good managers as well.
I don't think I deserved all those bad managers. It was just bad
luck. Besides, even if I got to choose my manager, how will I know I
made the right choice until afterwards?
>
> The next step is to look at what can be done about improving your
> management.
>
> Yes, it is actually possible for you, as an unempowered, lower life form,
> grunt, to actually make a difference. I'll cover it after we see the
> responses to the above, if there are responses to the above... :-).
>
> Pete.
I would be interested in knowing how to improve my management. The
one I have now is pretty good, but I might need to know those
techiques between now and when I retire.
--
http://arnold.trembley.home.att.net/
| |
| docdwarf@panix.com 2005-09-07, 7:55 am |
| In article <3o6sd6F4ij6lU1@individual.net>,
Pete Dashwood <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>
>I read the thread on command line arguments and was quite surprised to see
>the hostility manifested towards 'managers'.
Hostility manifested towards managers is surprising? What comes next, I
wonder... will you be shocked, *shocked* to find that gambling is going on
in here?
(your winnings, sir)
>
>Richard gave some very sound and clear advice that was within the framework
>of what was requested. Michael was attacked for having been a manager, which
>seems to me, no basis for attack. Some others were accused of 'management'
>approaches in that they did not really understand the problem they were
>responding to, and had simply looked for a summary. The Doc described a
>management experience that made me have a sharp intake of breath.
I/it did? Ummmm... I don't recall which tale I related but, for the most
part, the stories I tell of such things are based on experience; there's
no need for me to fabricate when Truth is wond'rous enow.
[snip]
>I'd like to pose a few questions for open discussion in this thread, if
>anybody feels so inclined.
>
>1. What is your personal attitude to your management? Do you see them as a
>bunch of wankers who have no idea what's going on or is required, no
>understanding of the problems you have to grapple with every day, and just
>an unnecessary departmental overhead because a trained monkey could do their
>job?
My answer is E) Some of the Above. As with any job/profession I've found
that 10% of the practioners have what I call 'The Touch', an almost
instinctive feeling/understanding for what will Do The Job Right... and
the rest are just kinda fumbling along, praying they don't get caught out.
>2. Do you have any aspirations to ever be management? Why? Why not?
No. Managers have to do things for which I have little capability or
tolerance. 'Shoemaker, stick to your last'... I hump code and, at times,
can turn out a moderately well-crafted piece of it.
>3. Could your attitude affect your management? (d'you think...?)
It could... were they to permit it. Let me relate another story: on one
site where I worked I once heard a rather... heated discussion going on in
one of the cubicles, along the lines of 'You must have changed the program
or something, the results are all messed up!' 'Let me check... no, the
load module hasn't been modified in four years.' 'I don't care what the
load module says, I ran the program just like always and the results are
all messed up... what did you do to screw up my results?'
I turned to the employee sitting nearby and raised an eyebrow... his
response was 'Oh, this happens all the time. Accounting submits the job
ad-hoc after they TSO-edit a control card... sometimes they forget to
change the card and the results are a mixture of this month's data and
last month's. Then they come over here and scream until Richie (the
corner-office idiot) comes over and makes everyone sit down and look at
stuff; Accounting then modifies the card, submits the job and it all goes
away.'
I then asked 'Why doesn't Richie go over to Accounting and gently tell
this woman's supervisor 'I don't *ever* want *any* of your people to even
*dream* of treating My Crew this way; if they have a problem then they go
to you and you come to *me*. I will not tolerate My Crew being abused in
this manner.'?... and the response was 'Oh, that's not the way it works
here, managers try to let subordinates resolve situations before they get
involved.'
'Even if it means shouting matches like this on a regular basis?' 'Yep.'
Now... my idea of a manager is one who says, first and foremost, 'Don't
mistreat My People. They are responsible to me and I have
responsibilities towards them.' In my experience this is rare.
>4. Would you do exactly what is specified in say, a program spec., even if
>you knew it was wrong, and would cause major disruption to downstream
>processing? How would you deal with this situation (if at all)?
This just happened to me recently. A corner-office idiot came to me,
directly, and asked for an 'all ya gotta do is...' solution. I bounced it
back to my Tech Lead who asked 'Who analysed this? Who spec'd it? How is
it going to effect the downstream system?'
My response was 'The COI came to me and told me this, more than that I do
not know... I sweep floor now, yes?' Tech Lead then went to COI and began
to ask questions... and in a very short while Tech Lead was called into
*his* COI's office and told he was being 'obstructionist' and to implement
the other COI's request, *now*.
I implemented the request, tested it... and noticed that in about 25% of
the cases it resulted in miscalculations. I reported this to Tech Lead;
his response was 'I'm not going to obstruct anything' and he called he
Prod team to move it in.
I went back to the code and slipped in some mods outside of the spec to
cut the miscalc rate to 15%... when I mentioned this to Tech Lead he
smiled, ruefully, and said he understood why I had to do this... but he'd
have rathered I didn't.
So... on the one hand he and I are 'built' a certain way, you don't ship
out code that you know is buggy. On the other hand pointing out that the
code is/may be buggy because of a lack of
analysis/co-ordination/specification is seen as being 'obstructionist'.
>5. In meetings, do you speak your mind and to Hell with them if they don't
>like it, or do you tend to pussyfoot for the sake of annual review? Would
>you modify your language depending on the level of management present? Why?
>Why not?
I am not usually invited to meetings. When I do attend them I do my best
to limit my comments to strictly technical matters.
>6. Are you gleeful when your manager is in trouble?
No. Even if it is the result of the manager's own petard doing the
hoisting it is not pleasant, to me, to see difficulties.
>7. Does your manager socialise with you on occasion? Is it comfortable or
>would you rather they didn't?
I avoid social occaissions.
>8. If you screwed up, would you look for support from your manager or would
>you make every effort to hide your blunder or divert attention from it until
>you could fix it, if you could fix it?
When I screw up I do whatever is necessary to fix it. If all that is
needed is doing something on the sly then that is what I do, if the
situation requires me to parade about in my skivvies singing 'La
Marseillaise' then I'll at least try to remember to put on a clean pair.
>
>The above are designed to help you realise that, if you have bad management,
>there is every possibility that you actually deserve them...:-)
My situtation might not be applicable to others. I am a
consultant/contractor/hired gun; I've noticed that, as such, I tend to see
the insides of 'sick' shops more than anyplace else. On the other hand...
if the 'Dilbert' comic-strip shows that Art imitates Life then there might
be a bit more 'sickness' about than I have seen.
>
>The next step is to look at what can be done about improving your
>management.
>
>Yes, it is actually possible for you, as an unempowered, lower life form,
>grunt, to actually make a difference.
It is good to live in a world that has Hope in it, aye.
DD
| |
| HeyBub 2005-09-07, 6:55 pm |
| Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
> 1. What is your personal attitude to your management? Do you see them
> as a bunch of wankers who have no idea what's going on or is
> required, no understanding of the problems you have to grapple with
> every day, and just an unnecessary departmental overhead because a
> trained monkey could do their job?
My management is kind, knowlegable, and a joy to be around. It anticipates
problems before they take place and has the best interests of the employees
always in the foreground. I firmly believe no better management has ever
existed in the history of the planet. I am the management.
> 2. Do you have any aspirations to ever be management? Why? Why not?
I did years ago. Now I are one. "If I'm going to work for a fool, it might
as well be me."
> 3. Could your attitude affect your management? (d'you think...?)
My attitude IS management.
> 4. Would you do exactly what is specified in say, a program spec.,
> even if you knew it was wrong, and would cause major disruption to
> downstream processing? How would you deal with this situation (if at
> all)?
Denial.
> 5. In meetings, do you speak your mind and to Hell with them if they
> don't like it, or do you tend to pussyfoot for the sake of annual
> review? Would you modify your language depending on the level of
> management present? Why? Why not?
I used to talk to myself. People looked at me funny. Now I write notes.
> 6. Are you gleeful when your manager is in trouble?
God no!
> 7. Does your manager socialise with you on occasion? Is it
> comfortable or would you rather they didn't?
We always do all things together.
> 8. If you screwed up, would you look for support from your manager or
> would you make every effort to hide your blunder or divert attention
> from it until you could fix it, if you could fix it?
Again, denial is the best remedy.
| |
| Oliver Wong 2005-09-07, 6:55 pm |
| I didn't see the original message, and I'm too lazy to remove the double
greater-than signs.
[color=darkred]
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
I've got two managers, a "business" manager who handles the finances of the
company (including my paycheck), and a "technical" manager who assigns me
tasks to complete. Most of my interaction with the financial manager has
been social, so doesn't really have direct relevance to my job. As for my
technical manager, he doesn't always know "what's going on" or "what is
required" with my specific task, but when/if I tell him, he listens. I think
he has a lot more people to worry about than just me so I'm not offended
when he doesn't know what problems I'm grappling with. I don't think a
trained monkey could do his job.
[color=darkred]
Not a "typical" manager because frankly I don't really like dealing with
people. I have some aspirations to become a technical lead though. My
imagination of the job description is I'd be given a high level technical
task, and I'd be in charge of breaking it down into lower level tasks and
assigning them to other people or to myself.
[color=darkred]
N/A, since I don't plan on "going into management"?
[color=darkred]
If I think I have a better idea of how to implement something than the
program spec says, or a better architecture or design or whatever, I let my
(tech) manager know. Sometimes he agrees with the change, and other times he
says "No, that's the way the client wants it, so we have to do it that way"
in which case I just do what the spec says.
[color=darkred]
Office politics hasn't been much of an issue where I work, so I guess
I'm lucky that way. There was one incident near the beginning where I saw
some code and commented that I thought it could really use an overhaul only
to find out it was written by one of the senior coders here. Since then
though, my input was typically heard early on in the design phase, so any
disagreement about designs got resolved before any code gets written.
[color=darkred]
No.
[color=darkred]
I'm somewhat antisocial, so I'm always uncomfortable (shy?) when
socializing with people I don't know well. That being said, I'm used to the
idea that "normal" people socialize, so it doesn't bother me any more than
random people socializing with me.
[color=darkred]
If I can fix it myself without anyone noticing anything going wrong, I
will. If it'll delay release of the product or otherwise screw things up for
other people, I'll notify the manager. I think this company has a "We're in
this together" mentality, so there isn't a big fear of blame being cast,
just a question of what's the most efficient way to fix things again.
- Oliver
| |
|
| "HeyBub" <heybubNOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:11httq128jr1h29@news.supernews.com...
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
> My management is kind, knowlegable, and a joy to be around. It anticipates
> problems before they take place and has the best interests of the
> employees always in the foreground. I firmly believe no better management
> has ever existed in the history of the planet. I am the management.
No further comment, I did that last time.
http://groups.google.com/group/comp...br />
4466ce9f9
JCE
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2005-09-07, 9:55 pm |
|
I am followin
"Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3o6sd6F4ij6lU1@individual.net...
>
>
> I read the thread on command line arguments and was quite surprised to see
> the hostility manifested towards 'managers'.
>
> Richard gave some very sound and clear advice that was within the
> framework of what was requested. Michael was attacked for having been a
> manager, which seems to me, no basis for attack. Some others were accused
> of 'management' approaches in that they did not really understand the
> problem they were responding to, and had simply looked for a summary. The
> Doc described a management experience that made me have a sharp intake of
> breath.
>
> The whole thread made me think about the perception of 'managers' by tech
> staff.
>
> Looking back over my own career, I can see managers who were excellent,
> who grew themselves and their staff, and who showed by example really good
> ways to motivate and encourage tech people. The ones who were not like
> that (I can think of a couple) simply did not progress. (One of them
> remained in the same job at the same middle management level for over 20
> years, becoming more and more bitter and twisted and finally actually
> working against the company until he got fired. It couldn't happen to a
> nicer guy...)
>
> It's hard to believe, I know, but I'll confess it here... I was not always
> the easiest guy to manage....:-)
> Eventually, like most people who are trying to advance a career, I got my
> comeuppance by being pushed to the other side of the table and having to
> deal with brash, intelligent, tech people who gave me every bit as hard a
> time as I had given my managers. What goes around comes around... :-)
>
> I'd like to pose a few questions for open discussion in this thread, if
> anybody feels so inclined.
>
> 1. What is your personal attitude to your management? Do you see them as a
> bunch of wankers who have no idea what's going on or is required, no
> understanding of the problems you have to grapple with every day, and just
> an unnecessary departmental overhead because a trained monkey could do
> their job?
> 2. Do you have any aspirations to ever be management? Why? Why not?
> 3. Could your attitude affect your management? (d'you think...?)
> 4. Would you do exactly what is specified in say, a program spec., even if
> you knew it was wrong, and would cause major disruption to downstream
> processing? How would you deal with this situation (if at all)?
> 5. In meetings, do you speak your mind and to Hell with them if they don't
> like it, or do you tend to pussyfoot for the sake of annual review? Would
> you modify your language depending on the level of management present?
> Why? Why not?
> 6. Are you gleeful when your manager is in trouble?
> 7. Does your manager socialise with you on occasion? Is it comfortable or
> would you rather they didn't?
> 8. If you screwed up, would you look for support from your manager or
> would you make every effort to hide your blunder or divert attention from
> it until you could fix it, if you could fix it?
>
> The above are designed to help you realise that, if you have bad
> management, there is every possibility that you actually deserve
> them...:-)
>
> The next step is to look at what can be done about improving your
> management.
>
> Yes, it is actually possible for you, as an unempowered, lower life form,
> grunt, to actually make a difference. I'll cover it after we see the
> responses to the above, if there are responses to the above... :-).
>
> Pete.
>
>
>
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2005-09-07, 9:55 pm |
|
Oops! Sorry, the ole cursor on SEND while typing on a notebook... a keyboard
bounce sends the message... (Note that I have not learned to avoid this
behaviour by simply moving the cursor when the reply window opens, despite
having made several incomplete posts to this newsgroup over the years. I
thought about this and decided it isn't because I'm stupid; it's because I
don't get a banana every time I remember to move the cursor... some of you
may disagree with analysis...:-))
As I was saying...
I am following this thread with great interest and some very useful
information is emerging. Thanks to all who have contributed so far. I plan
to give it another day or two, so that people who have not contributed yet
won't have their posts influenced prematurely, and will then respond to
everybody. If you have any anecdotes showing what you consider good or bad
management, do please post them (some already have and they make
entertaining as well as informative reading.)
Pete.
"Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3o6sd6F4ij6lU1@individual.net...
>
>
> I read the thread on command line arguments and was quite surprised to see
> the hostility manifested towards 'managers'.
>
> Richard gave some very sound and clear advice that was within the
> framework of what was requested. Michael was attacked for having been a
> manager, which seems to me, no basis for attack. Some others were accused
> of 'management' approaches in that they did not really understand the
> problem they were responding to, and had simply looked for a summary. The
> Doc described a management experience that made me have a sharp intake of
> breath.
>
> The whole thread made me think about the perception of 'managers' by tech
> staff.
>
> Looking back over my own career, I can see managers who were excellent,
> who grew themselves and their staff, and who showed by example really good
> ways to motivate and encourage tech people. The ones who were not like
> that (I can think of a couple) simply did not progress. (One of them
> remained in the same job at the same middle management level for over 20
> years, becoming more and more bitter and twisted and finally actually
> working against the company until he got fired. It couldn't happen to a
> nicer guy...)
>
> It's hard to believe, I know, but I'll confess it here... I was not always
> the easiest guy to manage....:-)
> Eventually, like most people who are trying to advance a career, I got my
> comeuppance by being pushed to the other side of the table and having to
> deal with brash, intelligent, tech people who gave me every bit as hard a
> time as I had given my managers. What goes around comes around... :-)
>
> I'd like to pose a few questions for open discussion in this thread, if
> anybody feels so inclined.
>
> 1. What is your personal attitude to your management? Do you see them as a
> bunch of wankers who have no idea what's going on or is required, no
> understanding of the problems you have to grapple with every day, and just
> an unnecessary departmental overhead because a trained monkey could do
> their job?
> 2. Do you have any aspirations to ever be management? Why? Why not?
> 3. Could your attitude affect your management? (d'you think...?)
> 4. Would you do exactly what is specified in say, a program spec., even if
> you knew it was wrong, and would cause major disruption to downstream
> processing? How would you deal with this situation (if at all)?
> 5. In meetings, do you speak your mind and to Hell with them if they don't
> like it, or do you tend to pussyfoot for the sake of annual review? Would
> you modify your language depending on the level of management present?
> Why? Why not?
> 6. Are you gleeful when your manager is in trouble?
> 7. Does your manager socialise with you on occasion? Is it comfortable or
> would you rather they didn't?
> 8. If you screwed up, would you look for support from your manager or
> would you make every effort to hide your blunder or divert attention from
> it until you could fix it, if you could fix it?
>
> The above are designed to help you realise that, if you have bad
> management, there is every possibility that you actually deserve
> them...:-)
>
> The next step is to look at what can be done about improving your
> management.
>
> Yes, it is actually possible for you, as an unempowered, lower life form,
> grunt, to actually make a difference. I'll cover it after we see the
> responses to the above, if there are responses to the above... :-).
>
> Pete.
>
>
>
| |
|
| <docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:dfmmmm$pfl$1@panix5.panix.com...
> In article <3o6sd6F4ij6lU1@individual.net>,
> Pete Dashwood <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>
> Hostility manifested towards managers is surprising? What comes next, I
> wonder... will you be shocked, *shocked* to find that gambling is going on
> in here?
> (your winnings, sir)
In comp.lang.cobol?
>
> I/it did? Ummmm... I don't recall which tale I related but, for the most
> part, the stories I tell of such things are based on experience; there's
> no need for me to fabricate when Truth is wond'rous enow.
Ah, if that were true. The number of times that people tell me "I *assure*
you that my friend really told me....." when forwarding hoax chain letters
is astounding. It seems that people like to think that they are at the
centre of something at all times. Many of your stories seem to be absurd
enough to truly be based on reality.
> [snip]
>
>
> My answer is E) Some of the Above. As with any job/profession I've found
> that 10% of the practioners have what I call 'The Touch', an almost
> instinctive feeling/understanding for what will Do The Job Right... and
> the rest are just kinda fumbling along, praying they don't get caught out.
It's simple economic drivers. Today you are more likely to see Computer
Science graduates because they are interested in Computer Science - whereas
a lot of people followed the money and ended up in a career that they're
simply not suited to. I think, fortunately, we are getting to the end of
the University of Phoenix MBA programs.
That trend even reached foreign governments:
http://www.time.com/time/archive/pr...1098956,00.html
>
> No. Managers have to do things for which I have little capability or
> tolerance. 'Shoemaker, stick to your last'... I hump code and, at times,
> can turn out a moderately well-crafted piece of it.
Sounds like a strange form of binary procreation to me.
>
> It could... were they to permit it. Let me relate another story: on one
> site where I worked I once heard a rather... heated discussion going on in
> one of the cubicles, along the lines of 'You must have changed the program
> or something, the results are all messed up!' 'Let me check... no, the
> load module hasn't been modified in four years.' 'I don't care what the
> load module says, I ran the program just like always and the results are
> all messed up... what did you do to screw up my results?'
>
> I turned to the employee sitting nearby and raised an eyebrow... his
> response was 'Oh, this happens all the time. Accounting submits the job
> ad-hoc after they TSO-edit a control card... sometimes they forget to
> change the card and the results are a mixture of this month's data and
> last month's. Then they come over here and scream until Richie (the
> corner-office idiot) comes over and makes everyone sit down and look at
> stuff; Accounting then modifies the card, submits the job and it all goes
> away.'
>
> I then asked 'Why doesn't Richie go over to Accounting and gently tell
> this woman's supervisor 'I don't *ever* want *any* of your people to even
> *dream* of treating My Crew this way; if they have a problem then they go
> to you and you come to *me*. I will not tolerate My Crew being abused in
> this manner.'?... and the response was 'Oh, that's not the way it works
> here, managers try to let subordinates resolve situations before they get
> involved.'
> 'Even if it means shouting matches like this on a regular basis?' 'Yep.'
I don't see abuse, I see abject stupidity.
I worked where development would make production changes to resolve a
problem and then enters a change request and the change request was sent in
a note to the change initiator, the installer, the approver and anyone else
specified...nothing unusual there.
But:
We were also responsible for gaining approvals for the change from the
system owner. After a number of changes where the operations team sent me
three notes saying that I did not have the approvals and that the changes
were in jeopardy of being rejected - I finally entered all change requests
with "I will not get approvals. The fix is provided, they receive copy of
this request. If you want approvals to install the change ask them yourself.
I don't care if it installs or not, I didn't open the problem, I just fix
them."
I actually did get a note apologizing from two levels of management up.
In a similar manner they added a box that said "Audit implications for
install Y/N". I made the mistake of putting Y because I wasn't sure
thinking that someone would look and correct it. I got in trouble for
forcing many people to go into "audit procedures". After that I always put
"N" and no one cared.
> Now... my idea of a manager is one who says, first and foremost, 'Don't
> mistreat My People. They are responsible to me and I have
> responsibilities towards them.' In my experience this is rare.
And, ain't that a damn shame.
>
> This just happened to me recently. A corner-office idiot came to me,
> directly, and asked for an 'all ya gotta do is...' solution. I bounced it
> back to my Tech Lead who asked 'Who analysed this? Who spec'd it? How is
> it going to effect the downstream system?'
>
> My response was 'The COI came to me and told me this, more than that I do
> not know... I sweep floor now, yes?' Tech Lead then went to COI and began
> to ask questions... and in a very short while Tech Lead was called into
> *his* COI's office and told he was being 'obstructionist' and to implement
> the other COI's request, *now*.
>
> I implemented the request, tested it... and noticed that in about 25% of
> the cases it resulted in miscalculations. I reported this to Tech Lead;
> his response was 'I'm not going to obstruct anything' and he called he
> Prod team to move it in.
>
> I went back to the code and slipped in some mods outside of the spec to
> cut the miscalc rate to 15%... when I mentioned this to Tech Lead he
> smiled, ruefully, and said he understood why I had to do this... but he'd
> have rathered I didn't.
>
> So... on the one hand he and I are 'built' a certain way, you don't ship
> out code that you know is buggy. On the other hand pointing out that the
> code is/may be buggy because of a lack of
> analysis/co-ordination/specification is seen as being 'obstructionist'.
It's the "broken window" philosophy and the reduction of "just good enough"
to "is this passable?" coding philosophy
>
> I am not usually invited to meetings. When I do attend them I do my best
> to limit my comments to strictly technical matters.
Saving all your best thoughts for clc, no doubt =) It's rather a shame, I'm
sure your sharp wit would be appreciated. (That's real, no sarcasm)
>
> No. Even if it is the result of the manager's own petard doing the
> hoisting it is not pleasant, to me, to see difficulties.
This statement _shocked_ me
>
> I avoid social occaissions.
This statement _shocked_ me. Psyche.
>
> When I screw up I do whatever is necessary to fix it. If all that is
> needed is doing something on the sly then that is what I do, if the
> situation requires me to parade about in my skivvies singing 'La
> Marseillaise' then I'll at least try to remember to put on a clean pair.
>
> My situtation might not be applicable to others. I am a
> consultant/contractor/hired gun; I've noticed that, as such, I tend to see
> the insides of 'sick' shops more than anyplace else. On the other hand...
> if the 'Dilbert' comic-strip shows that Art imitates Life then there might
> be a bit more 'sickness' about than I have seen.
Memories tend to blur the normal, functioning areas anyway. It's the
moments of "whaaa?" that you remember.
>
> It is good to live in a world that has Hope in it, aye.
> DD
For a minute I thought you said Dope
Nice note. I'm easily amused though.
JCE
| |
| docdwarf@panix.com 2005-09-08, 6:55 pm |
| In article <uWNTe.9797$4i6.8477@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>,
jce <defaultuser@hotmail.com> wrote:
><docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:dfmmmm$pfl$1@panix5.panix.com...
>
>
>In comp.lang.cobol?
You betcha!
[snip]
>
>Ah, if that were true. The number of times that people tell me "I *assure*
>you that my friend really told me....." when forwarding hoax chain letters
>is astounding. It seems that people like to think that they are at the
>centre of something at all times. Many of your stories seem to be absurd
>enough to truly be based on reality.
I'm a bit wary of referring to this 'reality' stuff, hence my labelling
things as 'my experiences'. As for absurdity... how about this: three
Kings follow a star to a barn where a woman has just given birth to a
child whom the Kings believe to be a Great Teacher. They leave the child
presents of kingly value... and then leave before finding out what this
Great Teacher has to say and are never reported to have looked him up
again.
There's no need to invent surrealism... it's just kinda out there,
floating around.
>
>
>It's simple economic drivers. Today you are more likely to see Computer
>Science graduates because they are interested in Computer Science - whereas
>a lot of people followed the money and ended up in a career that they're
>simply not suited to. I think, fortunately, we are getting to the end of
>the University of Phoenix MBA programs.
I agree that this happened... a decade-and-a-half back *everyone* was A
Programmer, now it is not so frequent. On the other hand... I've run
across enough hack lawyers, engineers, doctors, customer service clerks...
even hack taxi drivers!... to hold to the 90/10 rule.
>
>That trend even reached foreign governments:
>http://www.time.com/time/archive/pr...1098956,00.html
Ahhhh, Hartford University... the finest campus that ever fit into a post
office box, I'm sure.
>
>
>Sounds like a strange form of binary procreation to me.
According to http://www.m-w.com definition 4 is 'chiefly British : to
put or carry on the back'; http://www.dictionary.com has '2 Slang b. To
carry, especially on the back.'
>
[snip]
[color=darkred]
>
>
>I don't see abuse, I see abject stupidity.
Well, 'abuse' is a verb (http://www.m-w.com, '4: to attack in words') and
might be the result of abject stupidity.
[snip]
>I actually did get a note apologizing from two levels of management up.
>In a similar manner they added a box that said "Audit implications for
>install Y/N". I made the mistake of putting Y because I wasn't sure
>thinking that someone would look and correct it. I got in trouble for
>forcing many people to go into "audit procedures". After that I always put
>"N" and no one cared.
There, you see... your own experience. Watch out for those management
apologies, though... some folks never forget that they had to make them.
>
>
>And, ain't that a damn shame.
Such is Life... on the other hand, Perot was a strong proponent of 'The
troops eat first, then the officers'... but other rigidities of his
organisation discouraged me from taking a job there.
>
[snip]
[color=darkred]
>
>It's the "broken window" philosophy and the reduction of "just good enough"
>to "is this passable?" coding philosophy
I'm not sure if it is that or if it is similar to the 'why are you making
people actually Do Work?' sort of thing your Audit = Y example shows.
>
>
>Saving all your best thoughts for clc, no doubt =) It's rather a shame, I'm
>sure your sharp wit would be appreciated. (That's real, no sarcasm)
In my experience the 90% who are faking it and just getting by are too
busy concentrating on what they are doing to be comfortable enough to joke
about it.
>
>
>This statement _shocked_ me
As my Sainted Paternal Grandfather - may he sleep with the angels! - said,
'Any damned fool can make other people uncomfortable; it takes a *special*
fool to make them *more* comfortable.' Leaving aside such lofty sentiments
as 'Thou shalt not rejoice at the downfall of thine enemies'... a manager
in trouble tends to send excrement rolling downhill.
>
>
>This statement _shocked_ me. Psyche.
Well... besides the fact that I find myself spending a lot of time at
social occaissions listening to people talk about small sums of money
(which I find distasteful and tedious) I've noticed that the stuff that
*I* find interesting to talk about tends to bore others to tears... see
above about being a '*special* fool'.
[snip]
>
>For a minute I thought you said Dope
No, Hope... as in that old saw, 'Humans spring eternally on Hope's
breasts'.
>
>Nice note. I'm easily amused though.
Seems readily apparent, aye... glad you enjoyed.
DD
| |
| Don Leahy 2005-09-08, 6:55 pm |
|
"Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3o6sd6F4ij6lU1@individual.net...
>
<SNIP>
>
> 1. What is your personal attitude to your management? Do you see them as a
> bunch of wankers who have no idea what's going on or is required, no
> understanding of the problems you have to grapple with every day, and just
> an unnecessary departmental overhead because a trained monkey could do
> their job?
As a species Managers are wonderful. They give direction and comfort to
those who need it the most.
> 2. Do you have any aspirations to ever be management? Why? Why not?
It is something that I aspire to. With the right mentor it might be
possible.
> 3. Could your attitude affect your management? (d'you think...?)
Definitely. It is important to try to see the big picture...when you look
at things that way your manager is always right.
> 4. Would you do exactly what is specified in say, a program spec., even if
> you knew it was wrong, and would cause major disruption to downstream
> processing? How would you deal with this situation (if at all)?
My manager has an open mind as well as an open door. He would listen to my
concerns, and then share his wisdom with me. I would soon realize that I am
mistaken and he is correct.
> 5. In meetings, do you speak your mind and to Hell with them if they don't
> like it, or do you tend to pussyfoot for the sake of annual review? Would
> you modify your language depending on the level of management present?
> Why? Why not?
Managers are always open to honest feedback. I see no reason why they would
be offended by such.
> 6. Are you gleeful when your manager is in trouble?
Not at all. I fret over it, and do whatever I can to help him overcome it.
> 7. Does your manager socialise with you on occasion? Is it comfortable or
> would you rather they didn't?
I am not worthy.
> 8. If you screwed up, would you look for support from your manager or
> would you make every effort to hide your blunder or divert attention from
> it until you could fix it, if you could fix it?
>
I would admit my guilt immediately and work whatever overtime was necessary
to correct my error.
In conclusion, my manager is a wise and powerful leader. And he monitors my
email. ;-)
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2005-09-09, 7:55 am |
|
ROFL! I have been waiting for someone to make exactly such a post :-)
Maybe you could try again from an anonymous server? It isn't a trap; I'm
genuinely interested in how people see their managers and what can be done
about it. (By both sides...)
Pete.
Top Post - nothing new below.
"Don Leahy" <leahydon@nospamplease.netscape.net> wrote in message
news:oK3Ue.16486$I02.980491@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
>
> "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:3o6sd6F4ij6lU1@individual.net...
> <SNIP>
>
> As a species Managers are wonderful. They give direction and comfort to
> those who need it the most.
>
>
> It is something that I aspire to. With the right mentor it might be
> possible.
>
>
> Definitely. It is important to try to see the big picture...when you look
> at things that way your manager is always right.
>
>
> My manager has an open mind as well as an open door. He would listen to
> my concerns, and then share his wisdom with me. I would soon realize that
> I am mistaken and he is correct.
>
>
> Managers are always open to honest feedback. I see no reason why they
> would be offended by such.
>
>
> Not at all. I fret over it, and do whatever I can to help him overcome
> it.
>
>
> I am not worthy.
>
>
> I would admit my guilt immediately and work whatever overtime was
> necessary to correct my error.
>
> In conclusion, my manager is a wise and powerful leader. And he monitors
> my email. ;-)
>
>
| |
| Alistair 2005-09-09, 6:55 pm |
|
Pete Dashwood wrote:
> I read the thread on command line arguments and was quite surprised to see
> the hostility manifested towards 'managers'.
Ah, the old syndrome of They are incompetent and I am not. We all think
that we could do our managers' job better ourselves. It is a different
kettle of fish when you get to do the job yourself.
>
>
> I'd like to pose a few questions for open discussion in this thread, if
> anybody feels so inclined.
>
> 1. What is your personal attitude to your management? Do you see them as a
> bunch of wankers who have no idea what's going on or is required, no
> understanding of the problems you have to grapple with every day, and just
> an unnecessary departmental overhead because a trained monkey could do their
> job?
Wankers? wash your mouth out Pete. I'm not sure that the Cousins would
understand the crudity of the term.
Management is necessary and is sometimes evil or incompetent. I have
worked for managers whom I could cheerfully throttle and others
(strangely enough, ones who could not tell me how to do my job) who
were the best I have known.
> 2. Do you have any aspirations to ever be management? Why? Why not?
Yes. It strikes me as more rewarding and fun than slaving over a hot
coding sheet. I'm a control freak.
> 3. Could your attitude affect your management? (d'you think...?)
Yes. It would make their lives more difficult if they actually had to
do their jobs professionally. A negative attitude on my part would
certainly make my managers' life problematic. So too would a drug
induced high.
> 4. Would you do exactly what is specified in say, a program spec., even if
> you knew it was wrong, and would cause major disruption to downstream
> processing? How would you deal with this situation (if at all)?
No. If there is any doubt or concern then discuss freely with the
originator of the spec. As an aside, a colleague was once asked to do a
job of work for the client. He produced a suite of code which produced
the desired result exactly as the user had requested. The user sent in
a letter of complaint saying that although he had been given exactly
what he had asked for, the developer should have known that this was
not what he really needed! Part of the problem is that my colleague was
a somewhat insular programmer who did not have the wider view of the
business processes and the other part of the problem is that the
organization in which we worked had a philosophy along the lines of:
"If the user tells us to jump then our only question should be 'How
high?'". It probably didn't help that the user probably didn't have a
clue himself (in the UK we have a tv character called 'Tim, nice but
dim').
> 5. In meetings, do you speak your mind and to Hell with them if they don't
> like it, or do you tend to pussyfoot for the sake of annual review? Would
> you modify your language depending on the level of management present? Why?
> Why not?
I do speak my mind. Which brings up two incidents:
1. I once had what appeared to others to be a stand-up row with my
director about the merits/demerits of a particular course of action. We
eventually agreed to differ. When I realised how others had perceived
our mild disagreement I went to apologise to the man. Before I could
speak, he apologised to me. Unfortuantely, although the guy was a very
reasonable man and operated an open door policy, the damage had been
done and other people were wary about expressing their opinions in
public thereafter.
2. In making a presentation to two clients about the resulting changes
to their system one of the clients accused me of lying (I don't, I am a
pathological teller of the truth as I know/recall it) about their
responses to questions that I had raised. My view about such
misunderstandings is that they should be settled at the time of arising
because, if left until after the meeting, then one side will consider
themselves "victorious" and thereafter be suffering from self-delusion.
Don't let the canker fester.
> 6. Are you gleeful when your manager is in trouble?
Depends upon the shite that he has previously lumped me in. I don't
mind seeing a bad manager suffer, especially if it is from the
consequences of their own actions/inactions. One manager (the director
referred to above) had ignored the two warnings that I had given
regarding the need to provide cover over a bank holiday period. So,
when he came down slamming his fist on the desk demanding to know who
was to provide the cover when we had all arranged to be out of town on
that day, I did not feel any pity. My attitude changed when I heard
that his wife's (fatal) cancer had probably led to his oversight. So
there may be a reason as to why a manager is incompetent, other than
sheer ineptitude.
> 7. Does your manager socialise with you on occasion? Is it comfortable or
> would you rather they didn't?
All managers have socialised with me and my team members. You get more
from your team if you do socialise. One manager I worked for got more
than he deserved from us (we kept digging him out of the holes he made
for himself) because of his socialising with the team. As an aside, I
worked for a "family spirit" company where every quarter the team was
treated to a slap-up meal and drinks session. Morale was high. I was
subsequently moved to a new team where, despite representations to
management, quarterly beanos were not the done thing. Morale on the
team plummeted.
> 8. If you screwed up, would you look for support from your manager or would
> you make every effort to hide your blunder or divert attention from it until
> you could fix it, if you could fix it?
Many years ago I wrote an article for the house magazine regarding how
to handle problems. It went along the lines of:
1. Has anybody noticed? No - then ignore it until they do.
2. Yes. Is it your fault? No -then ignore it until you get lumbered.
You get the drift. Seriously, delegate upwards by notifying management
(mea culpa, but what do you expect from a one-legged colour-blind
grey-haired doddery old programmer?), get them to make the decision and
them help them with their problem.
> The above are designed to help you realise that, if you have bad management,
> there is every possibility that you actually deserve them...:-)
It is my desire to become a manager so what does someone have to do to
deserve me as their boss?
>
> The next step is to look at what can be done about improving your
> management.
>
In the UK, we do not normally train management/project leaders.
Somehow, they are supposed to acquire the necessary skills by
osmosis/diffusion.
In my comments above, I said something about two managers for whom I
have worked who were good. I asked one why he did not lose his temper
in some of the meetings. His reply was that he had previously been a
user and had concluded that banging your fist on the desk was
counter-productive. The other manager was good from my perspective
because he left me to get on with my job and supported me when I needed
it. However, I did see another employee (a lead-swinger) who spent a
year doing a job which was subsequently junked and replaced in two
ws by an inexperienced trainee. So, the employee's attitude does
make a difference to whether a manager is good or bad.
| |
|
| "Alistair" <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1126285312.030726.230350@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
> Ah, the old syndrome of They are incompetent and I am not. We all think
> that we could do our managers' job better ourselves. It is a different
> kettle of fish when you get to do the job yourself.
I don't believe that this is is representative of the truth. I often say
things like that guy who replaced Peter Jennings sucks...or I read Chuck
Pahluniaks novel and it was so overrated....it does not have any bearing on
whether I could read news or write novels.
>
> Wankers? wash your mouth out Pete. I'm not sure that the Cousins would
> understand the crudity of the term.
Wankers is not all that bad....in Essex it's a formal greeting as in "Oy,
wangggggggka...you silly shirtlifter...ow ya doin'?"
> Management is necessary and is sometimes evil or incompetent. I have
> worked for managers whom I could cheerfully throttle and others
> (strangely enough, ones who could not tell me how to do my job) who
> were the best I have known.
>
>
> Yes. It strikes me as more rewarding and fun than slaving over a hot
> coding sheet. I'm a control freak.
Wow, I do my coding on a laptop in 73 degrees......I don't think managing
incompetent "practitioners" is much fun either - queue "Employee wars"
thread ;-)
>
> Yes. It would make their lives more difficult if they actually had to
> do their jobs professionally. A negative attitude on my part would
> certainly make my managers' life problematic. So too would a drug
> induced high.
I agree and know this to be true. I am by nature negative in many ways and
often it has more effect on my peers than any good deeds that management
could do. I'm trying to be more positive because of it. It's hard to find
a balance between being positive and accurately reflecting popular opinion -
which is often (though not exclusively) visibly negative.
>
> No. If there is any doubt or concern then discuss freely with the
> originator of the spec. As an aside, a colleague was once asked to do a
> job of work for the client. He produced a suite of code which produced
> the desired result exactly as the user had requested. The user sent in
> a letter of complaint saying that although he had been given exactly
> what he had asked for, the developer should have known that this was
> not what he really needed!
There _IS_ a responsibility to understand what the customer wants.
Depending on the organization this may or may not lie with the developer.
If my air conditioner breaks and my house is heating up I call an A/C guy
and say "My house is hot something is wrong - correct it". I don't expect
a bill for him filling my house up with ice....or replacing my A/C unit when
all I need is to fix the freon leak even though each solution fulfilled my
requirement.
This is why we are seeing a growing popularity in the idea of "prototyping"
(and I use the term loosely) requirements and less time on the up front long
drawn up requirements process. A lack of skillful communication and
requirements management and the "waterfall" method have long been a sore
point for many businesses.
>Part of the problem is that my colleague was
> a somewhat insular programmer who did not have the wider view of the
> business processes and the other part of the problem is that the
> organization in which we worked had a philosophy along the lines of:
> "If the user tells us to jump then our only question should be 'How
> high?'".
Yes. I always wonder why the only question is never "How quickly?" as in
the informal definition. If your user was a long jump coach you would want
an entirely different approach :)
Reminds me of a good joke though:
A manager had a flagpole lying on the ground. He propped it in its hole,
got a ladder and a tape measure and tried to climb up to measure it, but
the flagpole fell down. Twice again he propped it up and tried to climb it.
Finally an employee said, "Why don't you measure it when it's on the
ground?" and the manager responded, "Stupid Fellow! The client wants to know
its height, not its width."
> It probably didn't help that the user probably didn't have a
> clue himself (in the UK we have a tv character called 'Tim, nice but
> dim').
Yes, he was a thoroughly decent chap.
>
> I do speak my mind. Which brings up two incidents:
>
> 1. I once had what appeared to others to be a stand-up row with my
> director about the merits/demerits of a particular course of action. We
> eventually agreed to differ. When I realised how others had perceived
> our mild disagreement I went to apologise to the man. Before I could
> speak, he apologised to me. Unfortuantely, although the guy was a very
> reasonable man and operated an open door policy, the damage had been
> done and other people were wary about expressing their opinions in
> public thereafter.
>
> 2. In making a presentation to two clients about the resulting changes
> to their system one of the clients accused me of lying (I don't, I am a
> pathological teller of the truth as I know/recall it) about their
> responses to questions that I had raised. My view about such
> misunderstandings is that they should be settled at the time of arising
> because, if left until after the meeting, then one side will consider
> themselves "victorious" and thereafter be suffering from self-delusion.
> Don't let the canker fester.
>
>
>
> Depends upon the shite that he has previously lumped me in. I don't
> mind seeing a bad manager suffer, especially if it is from the
> consequences of their own actions/inactions. One manager (the director
> referred to above) had ignored the two warnings that I had given
> regarding the need to provide cover over a bank holiday period. So,
> when he came down slamming his fist on the desk demanding to know who
> was to provide the cover when we had all arranged to be out of town on
> that day, I did not feel any pity. My attitude changed when I heard
> that his wife's (fatal) cancer had probably led to his oversight. So
> there may be a reason as to why a manager is incompetent, other than
> sheer ineptitude.
>
> All managers have socialised with me and my team members. You get more
> from your team if you do socialise. One manager I worked for got more
> than he deserved from us (we kept digging him out of the holes he made
> for himself) because of his socialising with the team. As an aside, I
> worked for a "family spirit" company where every quarter the team was
> treated to a slap-up meal and drinks session. Morale was high. I was
> subsequently moved to a new team where, despite representations to
> management, quarterly beanos were not the done thing. Morale on the
> team plummeted.
I always find these types of things humourous. I'm not sure the tipping
point for employee morale anymore. In reading a SAP Planning book, one of
the sections indicates that for consultants, the dropping of $100 prizes or
giving the afternoon off with the teams to socialize is of positive effect.
My feeling is that if I'm paying you $150-200 /hr you should work for me and
earn it.
Most people get paid well enough to afford their own "slap up meal and
drinks session"...I figure just not questioning them all leaving early on a
Friday once in a while should be good enough. I'm always amazed at people
making $100,000 a year that won't show up for a meeting too "close" to lunch
unless someone throws in free $5 pizzas.
Apparently I'd suck as a manager.
>
> Many years ago I wrote an article for the house magazine regarding how
> to handle problems. It went along the lines of:
>
> 1. Has anybody noticed? No - then ignore it until they do.
> 2. Yes. Is it your fault? No -then ignore it until you get lumbered.
Same answer if you work on the diagnostics board for the Long Island Nuclear
reactor?
> You get the drift. Seriously, delegate upwards by notifying management
> (mea culpa, but what do you expect from a one-legged colour-blind
> grey-haired doddery old programmer?), get them to make the decision and
> them help them with their problem.
>
>
> It is my desire to become a manager so what does someone have to do to
> deserve me as their boss?
> In the UK, we do not normally train management/project leaders.
> Somehow, they are supposed to acquire the necessary skills by
> osmosis/diffusion.
In the US this is true of every position that I've seen - though apparently
acting is useful for a political career...as well as having the right dad.
> In my comments above, I said something about two managers for whom I
> have worked who were good. I asked one why he did not lose his temper
> in some of the meetings. His reply was that he had previously been a
> user and had concluded that banging your fist on the desk was
> counter-productive. The other manager was good from my perspective
> because he left me to get on with my job and supported me when I needed
> it. However, I did see another employee (a lead-swinger) who spent a
> year doing a job which was subsequently junked and replaced in two
> ws by an inexperienced trainee. So, the employee's attitude does
> make a difference to whether a manager is good or bad.
JCE
| |
|
| In article <ElHUe.66015$xl6.56705@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>,
jce <defaultuser@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"Alistair" <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:1126285312.030726.230350@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
[color=darkred]
>I always find these types of things humourous. I'm not sure the tipping
>point for employee morale anymore. In reading a SAP Planning book, one of
>the sections indicates that for consultants, the dropping of $100 prizes or
>giving the afternoon off with the teams to socialize is of positive effect.
>My feeling is that if I'm paying you $150-200 /hr you should work for me and
>earn it.
Ahhhhh, the old Bang for the Buck dichotomy. On the one hand, a Good
Businessperson is one who can get the greatest quantity of a given
commodity for the lowest price... in this case the commodity is labor and
the Best Deal would be someone who supplies an infinitely large amount of
infinitely effective work for an infinitely low price.
On the other hand... a Bad Worker is one who tries to get the most money
for the least amount of work given. The Best Deal is giving an infinitely
small amount of infinitely ineffective work for an infinitely high price.
>Most people get paid well enough to afford their own "slap up meal and
>drinks session"...I figure just not questioning them all leaving early on a
>Friday once in a while should be good enough. I'm always amazed at people
>making $100,000 a year that won't show up for a meeting too "close" to lunch
>unless someone throws in free $5 pizzas.
'Homo economicus' is not, as many studies show, a rational creature... for
whatever reason folks seem to smile when they get what they perceive as
'something for nothing'. Consider: the cost of the pizzas over the course
of a year would amount to, most likely, a few pennies per hour per worker;
if management suggested such a raise it would, quite possibly, result in
outright worker hostility.
On the other hand... that negligible amount can cause a fair amount of
goodwill towards an organisation (if, of course, it is not presented in
the face of overwhelming counterbalance... 'Why are you upset that we
demand four hours per w of unbilled work from you? We give you free
pizza!') and such goodwill can, when the fertiliser hits the ventilator,
be of enormous value.
>
>Apparently I'd suck as a manager.
I've overheard far too many managers saying amongst themselves 'All right,
how are we going to get more out of these guys?'... and nobody responding
'Well, that depends on what more we can put into them.'
DD
| |
| Howard Brazee 2005-09-12, 9:55 pm |
| On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 17:24:07 -0600, Don Leahy =
<leahydon@nospamplease.netscape.net> wrote:
> In conclusion, my manager is a wise and powerful leader. And he =
> monitors my
> email.
I can see that.
I had a manager whos style wasn't really popular with other managers. =
He =
considered his job to be to get rid of blocks between us and successful =
=
completion of our job. He sort of worked for us and made us very =
productive.
-- =
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
| |
| Alistair 2005-09-13, 7:55 am |
|
>
> I don't believe that this is is representative of the truth. I often say
> things like that guy who replaced Peter Jennings sucks...or I read Chuck
> Pahluniaks novel and it was so overrated....it does not have any bearing on
> whether I could read news or write novels.
I think you are picking nits by comparing apples with pears. You know
that you could not write a better novel but your criticism of
management implies a certain knowledge of all circumstances surrounding
your manager's actions. I have become aware (through my studies around
project management) that sitting in the big chair and issuing orders is
only part of the story. Often, a managerial decision is effected by
events unseen from the position of the worker. As a worker I would
criticise the manager but appraised of the fuller picture my opinions
would change.
>
> Wankers is not all that bad....in Essex it's a formal greeting as in "Oy,
> wangggggggka...you silly shirtlifter...ow ya doin'?"
'nough said.
> I agree and know this to be true. I am by nature negative in many ways and
> often it has more effect on my peers than any good deeds that management
> could do. I'm trying to be more positive because of it. It's hard to find
> a balance between being positive and accurately reflecting popular opinion -
> which is often (though not exclusively) visibly negative.
I, too, tend towards an unhealthy dose of negativity and cynicism.
Also, I am trying to change my attitude too (we are in danger of
starting an Attitudinous Anonymous group). I found that a cynical ploy
of saying "We don't have problems, we have opportunities..." was a good
start as I worked on a 24/7 mainframe support team. Standing things on
their heads is always a good start.
>
>
> There _IS_ a responsibility to understand what the customer wants.
> Depending on the organization this may or may not lie with the developer.
> If my air conditioner breaks and my house is heating up I call an A/C guy
> and say "My house is hot something is wrong - correct it". I don't expect
> a bill for him filling my house up with ice....or replacing my A/C unit when
> all I need is to fix the freon leak even though each solution fulfilled my
> requirement.
>
However, if you called an air-cond man and told him that you wanted
your house filled with ice and only ice you would not have the right to
complain that he had failed to fix the air-cond if he had followed your
orders to the letter.
> This is why we are seeing a growing popularity in the idea of "prototyping"
> (and I use the term loosely) requirements and less time on the up front long
> drawn up requirements process. A lack of skillful communication and
> requirements management and the "waterfall" method have long been a sore
> point for many businesses.
I've never worked in a prototyping workshop and suspect that it would
not resolve the problem, merely improve the perceived delay between
request and delivery. Also, there may be issues with quality of
deliverables.
>
> Reminds me of a good joke though:
>
> A manager had a flagpole lying on the ground. He propped it in its hole,
> got a ladder and a tape measure and tried to climb up to measure it, but
> the flagpole fell down. Twice again he propped it up and tried to climb it.
> Finally an employee said, "Why don't you measure it when it's on the
> ground?" and the manager responded, "Stupid Fellow! The client wants to know
> its height, not its width."
Nice one, must add it to my collection.
| |
|
| In article <1126613688.762063.207840@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
[snip]
>I have become aware (through my studies around
>project management) that sitting in the big chair and issuing orders is
>only part of the story. Often, a managerial decision is effected by
>events unseen from the position of the worker. As a worker I would
>criticise the manager but appraised of the fuller picture my opinions
>would change.
Are you saying here that 'opinions may change based on the amount of
information that is available?' If that is the case then it might be
concluded that those responsible for restricting information are likewise
responsible for the 'negative attitudes' which result from opinions which
are generated in the absence of the information which they have not
disseminated. Consider:
Coder: 'The conclusion is (x).'
Mgr: 'Ahhhhhhh, that's a very good conclusion... but you don't have the
Big Picture, if you did then you'd conclude *just* as We have.'
Coder: 'I come to conclusions based on what I have; what would be wrong
with my being given the Big Picture and then we'll see if I can come to
another very good conclusion?'
Mgr: 'I'm... very busy right now.'
DD
| |
| Alistair 2005-09-13, 6:55 pm |
|
docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
> In article <1126613688.762063.207840@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> Alistair <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
> Are you saying here that 'opinions may change based on the amount of
> information that is available?'
Err, yes.
If that is the case then it might be
> concluded that those responsible for restricting information are likewise
> responsible for the 'negative attitudes' which result from opinions which
> are generated in the absence of the information which they have not
> disseminated.
I take your point. At one place I worked, a wly briefing was
instigated whereby project leaders were appraised of 95% of the content
of the directors' briefing (held the day before) and then expected to
pass the information on to their colleagues. Result - rumour control
was redundant, morale was boosted and the sheep were happy. I know from
holding wly project meetings with my staff on projects that they
were happier too (although they thought that I was/am a shite project
leader).
Consider:
>
> Coder: 'The conclusion is (x).'
>
> Mgr: 'Ahhhhhhh, that's a very good conclusion... but you don't have the
> Big Picture, if you did then you'd conclude *just* as We have.'
>
> Coder: 'I come to conclusions based on what I have; what would be wrong
> with my being given the Big Picture and then we'll see if I can come to
> another very good conclusion?'
>
> Mgr: 'I'm... very busy right now.'
>
> DD
Dilbert must mention something like this. Pointy-haired boss would
probably say something like "Need to know".
| |
| John Culleton 2005-09-13, 6:55 pm |
| Alistair wrote:
>
> docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
> Err, yes.
>
> If that is the case then it might be
>
> I take your point. At one place I worked, a wly briefing was
> instigated whereby project leaders were appraised of 95% of the content
> of the directors' briefing (held the day before) and then expected to
> pass the information on to their colleagues. Result - rumour control
> was redundant, morale was boosted and the sheep were happy. I know from
> holding wly project meetings with my staff on projects that they
> were happier too (although they thought that I was/am a shite project
> leader).
>
> Consider:
>
> Dilbert must mention something like this. Pointy-haired boss would
> probably say something like "Need to know".
Managers have to deal with all kinds of difficulties that have little
relation to writing programs or designing systems. There is the
racist/sexist employee who doesn't like working for women or for men of
another race. Disrupting unit meetings is his favorite indoor activity.
There is the guy with an alleged disability who trots out the
Americans with Disability Act whenever his work habits are questioned. There
is the otherwise competent secretary who falsifies her best friend's time
and attendance records. There is the programmer who is a Foxpro expert and
is terrified by the prospect of learning anything new. There are the turf
battles with other related information staff not under direct supervision.
There are the client managers who have fallen in love with package x or
vendor y and won't deal with any other alternatives. There are the budget
battles. The theft of equipment. The air conditioning that won't work. And
that was just my last job as a manager.
The technical parts are challenging but solvable. The people problems will
ultimately drive you into retirement.
John Culleton
Former Chief, Automated Systems Office, Baltimore City Department of Social
Services.
Former Chief, Special Equipment Staff, BRSI, Social Security Administration.
Former Manager, Systems and Data Processing, Penberthy Division of Houdaille
Industries
Former Manager, Systems Application Programming, Link Group of Singer
General Precision.
| |
|
| In article <IPadneeyart3frveRVn-vA@adelphia.com>,
John Culleton <john@wexfordpress.com> wrote:
>Alistair wrote:
>
[snip]
[color=darkred]
>
>Managers have to deal with all kinds of difficulties that have little
>relation to writing programs or designing systems.
Ummmmm... isn't that supposed to be Their Job? I was taught, e'er-so-long
ago, that 'The responsibility for the allocation,
co-ordination and motivation of personnel and resources towards the
accomplishment of a stated Executive goal is that of Management.'
>There is the
>racist/sexist employee who doesn't like working for women or for men of
>another race. Disrupting unit meetings is his favorite indoor activity.
If he has an irreplaceable skill then giving him an office in a
broomcloset and keeping him out of meetings might be ways to deal with
this.
>There is the guy with an alleged disability who trots out the
>Americans with Disability Act whenever his work habits are questioned.
This might be approached with rigid documentation and constant interaction
with Personnel... or a transfer... I'm sorry, 'promotion' to the Idaho
office.
>There
>is the otherwise competent secretary who falsifies her best friend's time
>and attendance records.
Cost/benefit analysis might be appropriate... is what gets stolen made up
for by otherwise competent work?
>There is the programmer who is a Foxpro expert and
>is terrified by the prospect of learning anything new.
See above about irreplaceable skills.
>There are the turf
>battles with other related information staff not under direct supervision.
Other people have their problems, sure... but make sure their managers
(your peers) know that one does not mess with My People. If their
managers do not grant you this managerial courtesy then it may be time to
call in your boss to speak with their boss. If your boss is unwilling to
support you then it might be time to find a boss who does; if the other
boss is unwilling to grant your boss this managerial courtesy then it may
be time to kick it up another notch.
>There are the client managers who have fallen in love with package x or
>vendor y and won't deal with any other alternatives.
One might consider instituting chargeback mechanisms which will cause
other solutions to show a greater ROI or make for a very nice year-end
bonus for your department.
Henry Ford is reputed to have lamented 'Every time I ask for a pair of
hands I get a man attached!'... bricks tend to stay where one puts them
but bricklayers sometimes have disagreements with each other.
DD
| |
| John Culleton 2005-09-13, 6:55 pm |
| docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
> In article <IPadneeyart3frveRVn-vA@adelphia.com>,
> John Culleton <john@wexfordpress.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
> Ummmmm... isn't that supposed to be Their Job? I was taught, e'er-so-long
> ago, that 'The responsibility for the allocation,
> co-ordination and motivation of personnel and resources towards the
> accomplishment of a stated Executive goal is that of Management.'
>
Yes, but the objective of the staff is or should be producing systems that
work, not dealing with internal housekeeping.
>
> If he has an irreplaceable skill then giving him an office in a
> broomcloset and keeping him out of meetings might be ways to deal with
> this.
>
Unfortunately there was literally no available broom closet. In other sites
I have wangled more suitable space for staff, but this clown shared space
with a younger employee that he was busily corrupting.
>
> This might be approached with rigid documentation and constant interaction
> with Personnel... or a transfer... I'm sorry, 'promotion' to the Idaho
> office.
>
No Idaho office---and his reputation precedes him.
>
> Cost/benefit analysis might be appropriate... is what gets stolen made up
> for by otherwise competent work?
>
This was an easy one actually. A short suspension and a reprimand and then
we kissed and made up.
>
> See above about irreplaceable skills.
>
When you can't fire, and can only hire for a vacancy, that is not feasible.
>
> Other people have their problems, sure... but make sure their managers
> (your peers) know that one does not mess with My People. If their
> managers do not grant you this managerial courtesy then it may be time to
> call in your boss to speak with their boss. If your boss is unwilling to
> support you then it might be time to find a boss who does; if the other
> boss is unwilling to grant your boss this managerial courtesy then it may
> be time to kick it up another notch.
>
When you are responsible for the system, but the person reports to someone
else, a p;licemen's lot is not a happy one.
>
> One might consider instituting chargeback mechanisms which will cause
> other solutions to show a greater ROI or make for a very nice year-end
> bonus for your department.
>
Not a likely solution in a government office.
> Henry Ford is reputed to have lamented 'Every time I ask for a pair of
> hands I get a man attached!'... bricks tend to stay where one puts them
> but bricklayers sometimes have disagreements with each other.
>
> DD
A big problem with the problems is that these are not stupid people. They
are clever at pulling the bureaucratic strings. And I did not select them.
In government you play with the players you inherit.
The last job was admittedly the worst, but I could regale you with stories
of other sites, the IBM salesman and his buddy the SE who were manipulating
the situation to increase their bottom line, well, you know the drill. More
than one time IBM tried to get me fired. The safest course was to become an
unpaid salesman for big Blue. I just refused to play that game.
Enough. I have some COBOL questions pending. Anyone care to answer my
latest?
--
John Culleton
Able Indexers and Typesetters
| |
| Chuck Stevens 2005-09-13, 6:55 pm |
|
<docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:dg6pmc$9q8$1@reader1.panix.com...
>
> This might be approached with rigid documentation and constant interaction
> with Personnel... or a transfer... I'm sorry, 'promotion' to the Idaho
> office.
Not that it has anything to do with ADA or other minority status -- they
didn't figure into this event -- but I once saw a formal announcement of a
personnel change that included the verbiage " ... has been placed on staff
whil | | |