Home > Archive > Cobol > June 2005 > Of mice and men
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| Pete Dashwood 2005-05-04, 8:55 am |
| Kellie has generated some heated controversy over data entry and methods of
doing it.
I looked through the thread and noticed that most people in it are not in
favour of date pickers, even though Richard offers a choice between GUI or
text for dates, as do I.
I think Kellie has some good points. I further think that, as we have seen
here many times, people tend to favour what they are familiar with.
The 'perceived wisdom' is that keystrokes are quicker for data entry. I
wouldn't argue that they certainly are if you are a trained data entry
professional and the input is all numeric, but what about the average user
just entering data to an application?
Gavan suggested that his keystroked date entry had unassailable advantages
over any other form of input. How many clicks would it take on your date
picker to do this (very contrived and narrow) task?
Could it be done in less than 30 key strokes?
Yes. Certainly.
Would it be worth doing?
That depends... what's the saving?
Prompted by this 'challenge' I decided to have another look at the whole
business of data entry in the 21st century and see if the 'perceived wisdom'
really stands up.
Now, if you don't have access to a GUI environment, you might as well stop
reading here. (Besides, your mind is already irretrievably closed and you
might as well just keep banging away at the keyboard and be happy until
retirement...:-))
I decided to do some tests and see if the mouse is REALLY any more
difficult than the keyboard, for the average non-professional, user.
Some of you might like to try it for yourselves:
http://taurangawriters.org.nz/CLCentry.htm
Obviously, when designing data entry and user interfaces there are a myriad
things to be considered. That was what prompted Kellie's post in the first
place. I wasn't happy about the way some of her ideas were dismissed, and
the perceived wisdom, or prejudicial opinion was trotted out as being Holy
Writ. (There has been more than enough religious discussion in this forum of
late and it doesn't need to extend to computer programming.)
It's time there was some rethinking in the way things are done. Fresh minds
bring fresh ideas. (An idea should be considered 'good' until it is seen not
to work, not just imagined not to work...).
It will not surprise me if different people arrive at different conclusions
from the same set of tests in the above.
Get someone who ISN'T a COBOL programmer. Let them try it out, preferably
before you have suggested what the desired result should be, and post your
conclusions to this thread.
At least it will be on topic...
Pete.
Frankly, I was really surprised the results I obtained from the link above.
Why not consider the whole business of data entry in the 21st century and
try it woyhout preconception.
| |
| Howard Brazee 2005-05-04, 8:55 am |
| I don't mind mice - but code needs to be written for people who choose not to
use them.
My laser-disk player doesn't have all the buttons I like. I put in a DvD, and
it spends its eternity to get to the main menu (teaching children patience), and
then it wants me to press ENTER to start the movie. My player doesn't have an
ENTER key, so I need to use the remote control. Remote controls are OK, but I
need my glasses to use them. I've heard ads for the latest Boise wave radio -
it doesn't have any buttons, people who use it don't have any choice - they
*must* use the remote control. (When did "remote" become a noun? I'm sooo out
of touch with things).
Give us alternatives.
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2005-05-04, 8:55 am |
|
"Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1115014840.900145.99880@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> since the
>
> That was simply to dispell the view that 'without a graphical UI the
> program must be stone age'.
>
>
> How can commenting on _Cobol_ be a digression here ?
>
> :-)
>
> OK. It is _much_much_ faster to enter using the keyboard, but that is
> because using the mouse just doesn't work:
>
Hahaha! Fair enough... :-)
> * Error: thissound.Play is not a function
>
Looks like the Sound object didn't get instantiated. I only added it so
there was a 'click' when people clicked. I tested it in eerie silence and
decided it wasn't giving feedback to the user. I then grabbed a sound
routine from other pages I have.
Your input makes me think I probably need to revisit all the serious pages
where I use this code. Thanks.
> My adblock also shows up where your 'embed' tag is, probably because
> embed is not html.
Hmmm... 'embed' is actually supposed to be preferred to 'object' ... (or
maybe I have that the wrong way round...)
>
> * Error: tabmonths is not defined
>
> While tabmonths is a table your reference to it is a MSism shortcut.
>
Oh yeah, I forgot to qualify it back to the document. IE doesn't require
that but other Browsers do.
>
Bugger! Thanks for trying. I can see that people who don't use MS software
have all kinds of trouble :-)
Sorry, I really wasn't waving a red cape. It was something I did in a hurry
and it is aimed at MS Browsers. Works fine on those.
Having said that I am aware that this is also a narrow view.... :-)
Pete.
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2005-05-04, 3:55 pm |
| Dan,
I can't thank you enough for this.
Superb.
Did you try it with the changes you suggested?
If you find it is OK in Netscape/Firefox, please mail it to me and I'll post
it to the server.
I understand if you don't have time; I've still learned a bundle from your
post and will make the changes when I get time. At the moment I'm trying to
write a very complex corporate report that is driving me up the wall and
occupying most of my energy. And I have a number of people I must see this
and next w which means some travelling and fairly intense negotiation
(even though I love it, it is still draining... :-)).
Comments interspersed below...
"LX-i" <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:3508f$42783ecd$45491c57$18828@KNOLO
GY.NET...
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
something[color=darkred]
>
> My Firefox (under Linux) wanted a plug-in to play the wav file. (Odd,
> but it should still work without it.)
>
That's just for the click.
I[color=darkred]
>
> You could install the latest Firefox for Windows - just be sure to make
> it *not* your default for anything, and it should leave your web
> shortcuts opening in IE the way they do today. :)
>
It's just too risky for me at the moment. On Friday I have a session
scheduled with a local vendor to supply hardware to my spec. I'm looking at
a notebook with 17in screen (built in video camera), P4 3+ GHz processor,
100GB HD (2 of these; one external for image copy), wireless and the works.
I'll load XP Pro on it and MAY set up a dual boot partition with Linux. (I
am also getting two other systems built for friends, so we should get a
reasonable deal...) Until I have that lot configured and working, and have
transferred everything from the existing machine and backed it all up to the
external hard drive on the new machine, I won't be installing anything new,
anywhere... :-)
use[color=darkred]
is[color=darkred]
>
> Richard has already hit on some of this, but I decided to look at the
> code, when the timer didn't work after I started typing. (By the way -
> XHTML? I'm impressed! :> ) Let me also preface this by saying I
> realize you've probably spent more time on it than you wanted to to
> begin with, so if you don't change this particular page, it's no skin
> off my back.
>
I do want to get the cross browser stuff working because I need the
knowledge for other things. This page is an experiment in more than one way.
I just don't have the time right now to finish it as I would like to.
> You're using shortcuts that Microsoft lets you get away with, but other
> browsers do not. (Why that is, I don't know.) For example, on line 176
> (at least that's the line in my browser) you reference "tabmonths".
> This is where JavaScript gets more verbose than COBOL! ;) For it to be
> "portable", you have to qualify everything up to the document element.
> (You can define variables to use as shortcuts as well.)
>
> So, instead of just saying...
>
> tabmonths.disabled = true;
>
> ,you can say...
>
> document.getElementById("tabmonths").disabled = true;
>
I knew I needed to qualify it to the document, and I tried:
document.tables.tabmonths.disabled = true; Of course it didn't work and I
really didn't have time to bugger about with it. I've never seen
'getElementById' and it is so  ... :-)
> ...or, if you're going to reference it a lot...
>
> var tabM = document.getElementById("tabmonths");
> tabM.disabled = true;
>
It just gets better and better !!
> (You can put the "var" statement outside all of your functions, and
> it'll be globally scoped, so any functions can access it. We use that
> at work to select the documents in different parts of the frameset.)
Yes, I learned that one early on in the piece. You probably saw that I
included my globals with the globals for the stop watch.
>
> I'll bet, if you qualified all your form references with something like
> the above, it would work for everyone. There is also a "forms"
> collection, which you can use to reference your various input elements -
> these are accessed either like this...
>
> // This blanks the value of this input element
> document.forms[0].nameOfMyInputElement.value = "";
>
> ... (where [0] is the index on the page), or like this...
>
>
> // This does the same thing!
> document.forms["myFormName"].nameOfMyInputElement.value = "";
>
I read about the collections in the DOM and understand indexing into them,
but I avoid it because it looks so clumsy. I need to revisit this. Thanks
for the pointers.
> This is some stuff that I've just recently come across, and it is really
> nice, especially that getElementById method. Gone is the feud between
> document.all and document.layers - just name it and change it! :)
>
yeah, it's neat...
>
> Not quite sure, but I think the capital "C" may be throwing you off
> (especially using XHTML).
>
Oh no! I'll check that out too. I understand and am careful with case
sensitivity in JavaScript but I may have goofed on that one...
I'm in your debt.
Thanks.
Pete.
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2005-05-04, 3:55 pm |
|
"Donald Tees" <donald_tees@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:M2Wde.5235$VL3.376047@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
These[color=darkred]
the[color=darkred]
it[color=darkred]
I[color=darkred]
alleviate[color=darkred]
cross[color=darkred]
so,[color=darkred]
> I think the fact that a screen is static is a major determining factor
> in whether a mouse or keyboard is faster. I work over PCanywhere on a
> machine that is a timezone over, and when the connection is slow, the
> mouse becomes painfull, due to screen refresh. If I am running stuff
> with multiple screens, even when I know roughly where the next button
> is, I cannot click it until I wait for the screen so I can get my mouse
> into the right spot. On the keyboard, I just keep typing, and the screen
> eventually catches up. In fact, I might even miss an entire screen, as I
> know it is a question, and I type the answer before the screen arrives.
> Since the connection then proceeds to the next page, I might not see the
> middle one. It is quite measurably faster.
>
Yep, the bottom line is that, like so many things, either form of input may
be applicable, and it is a question of using the best tools for the job.
However, I am PERSONALLY (although I know many here won't be, and that's
fine too...) persuaded, that in the SPECIFIC instance being considered,
under the specific narrow and contrived circumstances, the mouse is a better
option.
What this has led me to think about is that it is really quite wrong to just
assume the keyboard is best. It isn't ALWAYS. Kellies idea of floating
balloons for errors, suggests to me that floating 'mousepads' close to entry
fields, could be a useful and viable form of data entry. (Drop down menus
are a step in this direction, but they can be tedious because of their
unidimensionality and consequent mouse movement.)
It comes down in the end to imagination. Kellie showed she was thinking and
not just accepting perceived wisdom. Even if her ideas don't prove to be
perfect in practise, at least she approached the problem 'correctly'.
My point is that more of us need to do that.
Pete.
PS the description of your system above sounds like there has been no lack
of imagination in designing it... :-)
| |
| docdwarf@panix.com 2005-05-04, 3:55 pm |
| In article <3drvivF6s4bkbU1@individual.net>,
Pete Dashwood <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:
[snip]
>What this has led me to think about is that it is really quite wrong to just
>assume the keyboard is best. It isn't ALWAYS.
*Nothing* is 'always'... including this statement.
[snip]
>It comes down in the end to imagination. Kellie showed she was thinking and
>not just accepting perceived wisdom. Even if her ideas don't prove to be
>perfect in practise, at least she approached the problem 'correctly'.
As I recall being said of the mathematician Ramanujan: 'At times he is
wrong... but he is wrong in such beautiful ways!'
DD
| |
| HeyBub 2005-05-04, 3:55 pm |
| jce wrote:
>
> Some people with excellent planning put a TV in the kitchen
> too....some of the really smart planners have a TV embedded into the
> front of their fridge.
My cat stares at the fridge - sometimes for hours, even with no TV.
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2005-05-04, 3:55 pm |
| This is probably the last time I'll be responding to your mail so I'll keep
it brief.
1. I don't care what you think about me and I don't need your (or anybody
else's) approval.
2. You behaved badly. That's OK. It happens. But you refused to acknowledge
it or take responsibility for it. That's not OK.
3. I can't decide what makes me want to puke more, you being 'gracious', or
you being offensive...
4. As for being upset because you disagreed with me... If I respected your
opinion it would matter. As I don't, it doesn't.
As far as your concerned, I am certainly arrogant, as demonstrated by that
last sentence.
(Ever wondered why I can have a civilized debate and disagree with other
people, but not you?)
I really don't like myself when I talk to you and I don't like the side of
me you bring out. I had a whimsical thought when I read this post:
If you and Foodman were in a burning building and I was the Fire Chief, who
would I get out first?
I thought about it for all of five minutes; meantime the building was
destroyed... Life's a XXXXX...
You are far too fond of quoting "private mail". Indirectly referencing
private mail is even more cowardly than putting it on the table. Why not
write to the person who sent it and ask if they mind you making it public?
If they do, you shouldn't even mention it. If you want to natter about me
behind my back, that says more about you than it does about me. It's a
public forum; why not say what you think? Just remember I have private mail
from you that you really wouldn't want made public... there is no danger;
I'd never do it, no matter how pissed off I was with you. (but then again, a
pompous ass like me could be lying...) That's one of the differences between
you and me.
I don't want a big public (or any other kind of) apology because you failed
to find proof; I want you to realise that it is NOT OK to make up your own
quotes and attribute them to people. A genuine acceptance of responsibility
for the effects of your actions. That would indicate some growth, and at
least I could respect you. I'm not interested in public or even private
humiliation of you or anybody else.
You paraphrased in a flippant and offensive manner what you believed were my
thoughts on something. The fact that you were so far off the beam, you came
up with something I wouldn't even THINK, let alone say, just rubs salt in
the wound for me. You never said: "This is what I think you're saying", or
"It seems to me", or any other kind of qualification, you just put it in
quotes and said I said it. That is NOT OK.
But the thing that finished it for me was that you know very well what you
did and you STILL can't bring yourself to admit it.
OK, life goes on.
Just leave me out of yours.
Pete.
<snipped pointless rant and ramble>
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2005-05-04, 3:55 pm |
|
"Arnold Trembley" <arnold.trembley@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:qVXde.696004$w62.178256@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
>
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
> Pete, I tried it again this evening with MSIE version 6. According to
> the timer it took me 27 seconds using the mouse picker, and a little
> over 20 seconds with the keyboard.
>
> Although I will say the mouse picker seemed fairly convenient.
>
> I also tried it again with Netscape 7.2, and I could enter the dates
> from the keyboard, but the timer never started, so I couldn't get a
> time under Netscape.
>
> With kindest regards,
>
> --
> http://arnold.trembley.home.att.net/
>
>
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2005-05-04, 3:55 pm |
|
"Arnold Trembley" <arnold.trembley@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:qVXde.696004$w62.178256@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
>
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
> Pete, I tried it again this evening with MSIE version 6. According to
> the timer it took me 27 seconds using the mouse picker, and a little
> over 20 seconds with the keyboard.
>
Thanks for that. It burns me up that I haven't got it working in Netscape.
You may have seen my other correspondence with Daniel.
I wonder if these results are like quantum experiments that seem to come out
how the experimenter wants them to... :-)? (It's a wave if you want it to be
a wave, or it's a particle if you want it to be a particle... :-))
> Although I will say the mouse picker seemed fairly convenient.
>
I think it gets better as you use it more. (Sorry to state the obvious, but
you know what I mean, we all have experience at entering data with the
keyboard...)
I'm starting to wonder now if my results are not because the 'mousepad' is a
good idea, but because I am a crap typist... :-)
> I also tried it again with Netscape 7.2, and I could enter the dates
> from the keyboard, but the timer never started, so I couldn't get a
> time under Netscape.
>
> With kindest regards,
>
Thanks, I appreciate your time.
Pete.
| |
| Howard Brazee 2005-05-04, 3:55 pm |
|
On 3-May-2005, "Chuck Stevens" <charles.stevens@unisys.com> wrote:
>
> I would suggest such an approach would be a *great deal* slower for a one
> handed typist! ;-)
For various values of one-handed-typist. I think Donald was referring to
someone who types with one hand as being a one-handed-typist. That person can
use a mouse without slowing down.
It is possible to buy a foot-operated mouse. I suppose that could speed things
up, allowing full use of the hands while mousing.
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2005-05-04, 3:55 pm |
|
"Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net> wrote in message
news:d5akks$j9c$1@peabody.colorado.edu...
>
> On 3-May-2005, "Chuck Stevens" <charles.stevens@unisys.com> wrote:
>
slower,[color=darkred]
one[color=darkred]
>
> For various values of one-handed-typist. I think Donald was referring to
> someone who types with one hand as being a one-handed-typist. That
person can
> use a mouse without slowing down.
>
> It is possible to buy a foot-operated mouse. I suppose that could speed
things
> up, allowing full use of the hands while mousing.
>
(I cannot resist... :-)) Does it squeak when you tread on it?
Pete.
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2005-05-04, 3:55 pm |
|
<docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:d5ahu1$jk1$1@panix5.panix.com...
> In article <3drvivF6s4bkbU1@individual.net>,
> Pete Dashwood <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
just[color=darkred]
>
> *Nothing* is 'always'... including this statement.
>
I realise you are agreeing with me and I don't want to appear churlish here,
but I also know you enjoy a nice point, so....
I believe the 'arrow of time' is 'always', Doc...
(By definition, it started when time began and will end when time finishes.)
I s'pose one could argue that Time is not 'something', but it would be an
argument... :-)
> [snip]
>
and[color=darkred]
>
> As I recall being said of the mathematician Ramanujan: 'At times he is
> wrong... but he is wrong in such beautiful ways!'
yes, if you're going to be wrong, might as well do it with style... :-)
Pete.
| |
|
| This is an interesting (or not) side discussion.
I have at my house a PC with some games, a Playstation with some games and a
XBOX with some games.
Historically I have used the console to play sports simulation type games
and for this I find the keypad very useful and it is ingrained in me to such
an extent that I won't play Madden/NFL 2k5 on the PC.
I also was playing games when they created the greatest user interface to
date - the keyboard move, mouse look.....This was pivotal to the success of
First Person Shooters.
I recently bought Halo 2 for the XBOX and plugged it in expecting to be
blown away - I wasn't. It was n't the game (although the graphics on any
new PC game is +always+ greater than a console) but the fact that I cannot
get used to the two stick keypad. My right thumb is not as nimble as my
mouse hand.
I've had many discussions with friends wondering if the young generation of
xbox'ers have the same difficulty transitioning to the mouse on a PC. My
conclusion is just that I am older.
Same principles - totally different application :-)
JCE
"Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3dlji3F6sc4raU1@individual.net...
> Kellie has generated some heated controversy over data entry and methods
> of
> doing it.
>
> I looked through the thread and noticed that most people in it are not in
> favour of date pickers, even though Richard offers a choice between GUI or
> text for dates, as do I.
>
> I think Kellie has some good points. I further think that, as we have
> seen
> here many times, people tend to favour what they are familiar with.
>
> The 'perceived wisdom' is that keystrokes are quicker for data entry. I
> wouldn't argue that they certainly are if you are a trained data entry
> professional and the input is all numeric, but what about the average user
> just entering data to an application?
>
> Gavan suggested that his keystroked date entry had unassailable advantages
> over any other form of input. How many clicks would it take on your date
> picker to do this (very contrived and narrow) task?
>
> Could it be done in less than 30 key strokes?
> Yes. Certainly.
> Would it be worth doing?
> That depends... what's the saving?
>
> Prompted by this 'challenge' I decided to have another look at the whole
> business of data entry in the 21st century and see if the 'perceived
> wisdom'
> really stands up.
>
> Now, if you don't have access to a GUI environment, you might as well stop
> reading here. (Besides, your mind is already irretrievably closed and you
> might as well just keep banging away at the keyboard and be happy until
> retirement...:-))
>
> I decided to do some tests and see if the mouse is REALLY any more
> difficult than the keyboard, for the average non-professional, user.
>
> Some of you might like to try it for yourselves:
>
> http://taurangawriters.org.nz/CLCentry.htm
>
> Obviously, when designing data entry and user interfaces there are a
> myriad
> things to be considered. That was what prompted Kellie's post in the first
> place. I wasn't happy about the way some of her ideas were dismissed, and
> the perceived wisdom, or prejudicial opinion was trotted out as being Holy
> Writ. (There has been more than enough religious discussion in this forum
> of
> late and it doesn't need to extend to computer programming.)
>
> It's time there was some rethinking in the way things are done. Fresh
> minds
> bring fresh ideas. (An idea should be considered 'good' until it is seen
> not
> to work, not just imagined not to work...).
>
> It will not surprise me if different people arrive at different
> conclusions
> from the same set of tests in the above.
>
> Get someone who ISN'T a COBOL programmer. Let them try it out, preferably
> before you have suggested what the desired result should be, and post your
> conclusions to this thread.
>
> At least it will be on topic...
>
> Pete.
>
> Frankly, I was really surprised the results I obtained from the link
> above.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Why not consider the whole business of data entry in the 21st century and
> try it woyhout preconception.
>
>
>
| |
| docdwarf@panix.com 2005-05-04, 8:55 pm |
| In article <Em8ee.29364$716.10482@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>,
jce <defaultuser@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Pete Dashwood <dashwood@enternet.co.nz>
>
>
>docdwarf@panix.com
>
>
>You're thinking of Galilean Absolute Time and not the Einstein-Minkowski
>Spacetime. Maybe you heard this at different times at the same time?
Well... as I recall spacetime the tau axis is set orthogonally to... the
usual suspect-axes. The speed of light (c) then becomes a limit,
approachable only asymptotically, because of distortions - Lorenz
contractions? - which the usual suspects experience as speed approaches
it... and if c is exceed then the direction of the tau axis reverses...
.... or something like that, it has been a few decades.
(I recall a senior-year math problem about a sixteen-foot log and an
eight-foot shed; the question was how fast the log would have to be moving
so that one could (albeit briefly) enclose it in the structure... I think
the answer was .75c but my memory is, admittedly, porous.)
DD
| |
| Richard 2005-05-04, 8:55 pm |
| > This is probably the last time I'll be responding to your mail
Geez, Peter, how many times have you said _that_ before ?
Just make it so.
| |
| Howard Brazee 2005-05-04, 8:55 pm |
|
On 2-May-2005, "Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote:
>
> Which I find strange because I prefer things to have fewer buttons, ie
> just the one that I want to use at any given time. ;-)
>
> (teaching children patience), > and then it wants me to press ENTER to
> start the movie.
>
> Bad planning. Put the DVD in _before_ going to make the popcorn.
My granddaughter wanted me to play a DvD. I put it in and pressed play. It
went through the previews and ended up at the menu. I looked at the front of
my player and did not find an ENTER key, and PLAY didn't do anything. I found
the remote control and pressed ENTER.
Someone is going to make money by coming up with smart DvD players that quickly
get to the movies. I know that we can buy Windows based boxes that act like
TIVO. Make it smart enough to remember where I want my movies to start unless
I tell it differently.
| |
| Richard 2005-05-04, 8:55 pm |
| > Someone is going to make money by coming up with smart DvD players
that quickly
get to the movies.
It is to do with licencing. In order to build a product you need to
licence items protected by patents and copyrights. Part of the licence
agreement is that parts so marked on the DVD _shall_not_be_skipped_.
This may include paid advertising.
There is also an issue currently with the 'broadcast bit' and the DCMA.
The FCC have mandated (in USA) that equipment _must_ recognise the
'broadcast bit' and refuse to record anything transmitted with that bit
set. They use the DCMA by claiming that the single bit 'encodes' the
screen image and thus ignoring it 'breaks the encoding' and thus
invokes the penalties of the DCMA (at least in the USA, but American
companies think US laws apply to the whole world).
The broadcasters are now trying to work out ways to prevent TIVO
devices skipping ads.
Fortunately, here in NZ, we are not subject to sillinesses such as
these, nor are the manufacturers in Asia.
> I know that we can buy Windows based boxes that act like
> TIVO. Make it smart enough to remember where I want my movies to
start unless
> I tell it differently.
If it is MS Windows then it is more likely to use DRM and follow FCC
and big corporation requirements. MS's 'Trusted Computing' is nothing
to do with you trusting your computer, it is about MS trusting you by
preventing you doing anything wrong even if that infringes your
existing 'fair use' rights.
With 'Free software' the Free is as in Freedom and not necessarily the
price.
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2005-05-05, 3:55 am |
| That sounds like a really interesting arrangement, Donald.
Would you happen to have a link where I can get Mandrake?
Pete.
Top POST no more below
"Donald Tees" <donald_tees@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:Zh5ee.9698$3U.691966@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
at[color=darkred]
processor,[color=darkred]
works.[color=darkred]
(I[color=darkred]
have[color=darkred]
the[color=darkred]
new,[color=darkred]
>
> If you install XP first, then do a simple install of Mandriva (mandrake)
> Linux, it wll set the machine up for dual boot automatically. The only
> effect you should notice in XP is the disk will get a bit smaller due to
> Linux setting up a couple partions. I expect that other distributions
> will do the same, but have no personal experience with them.
>
> I have one system here that boots Linux, XPPro, Win98, & Win95. The only
> thing I use the Linux partition for is to backup the other three. Since
> Linux can see all three, but they cannot even see the Linbux partition,
> it is a bullet-proof backup method (as long as the HD keeps working<G> ).
> It even backs up all the stuff Windows will *not* backup because of
> files being open, and restores them flawlessly.
>
> Once you set up Linux, then you can use it for mail and web access, and
> keep the mail settings in XP as they are ... funny but installing an
> extra OS seems to be less risky than changing the existing system to me.
> I've been installing Linux on my Win systems just for backup.
>
> Donald.
>
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2005-05-05, 3:55 am |
| Cheers JCE.
I also use the image copy approach for backup.
Not sure about GAG as I can't go round any more learning curves right now...
Maybe a future option.
I know virtually nothing about Linux so have no idea of the pros and cons of
Fedora vs Mandrake.
Pete.
TOP POST no more below
"jce" <defaultuser@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:xf8ee.44137$5f.41940@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> The problem is often the other way around....Linux then Windows.
>
> I have Windows XP/2000/Linux Fedora....XP I use just day to day, Windows
> 2000 I have a lot of one click install development stuff to play with (I
> never do)....
>
> I use GAG as my bootloader - it's VERY easy, and it lets me reinstall
either
> windows/linux (I have drive image backup of those partitions so I don't
have
> to "reinstall")....I can now reinstall windows in about 4 hours....3 hours
> and 55 minutes of which is looking for my drive image restore boot disk.
>
> I guess this is my equivalent except I have two drives and keep my backups
> on the other drive (I've never had a hard drive long enough to have it
crap
> out on me so I'm not worried)......but _do_ use a bootloader like GAG
>
>
> JCE
>
> "Donald Tees" <donald_tees@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:Zh5ee.9698$3U.691966@news20.bellglobal.com...
looking[color=darkred]
processor,[color=darkred]
Linux.[color=darkred]
to[color=darkred]
it[color=darkred]
extra[color=darkred]
>
>
>
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2005-05-05, 3:55 am |
|
"Michael Wojcik" <mwojcik@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:d5al4p017kk@news1.newsguy.com...
>
> In article <3508f$42783ecd$45491c57$18828@KNOLOGY.NET>, LX-i
<lxi0007@netscape.net> writes:
handling[color=darkred]
>
> I suspect this is correct, from a quick glance at the XHTML
> Transitional DTD.
>
> Pete, remember that XML is case-sensitive (due at least in part to
> the fact that it allows many encodings, some of which do not define
> case-insensitivity clearly), so it's important to stick to the case
> specified by the DTD.
>
> As I noted in an earlier post, free verifiers are available from W3C,
> and they're well worth using to check for compatibility. (Actually,
> with XHTML, you can just grab the DTD and run through a validating
> XML parser.)
I did go to the W3C site, read a lot of stuff and downloaded several
documents.
Thanks for that.
Dreamweaver also has a verifier which I used. The only tags it flagged were
the EMBED tags. These were for the sound file (click) object. The W3C site
agreed that EMBED should be replaced by OBJECT (which I did) but then went
on to say that OBJECT is flaky in some Browsers and may not work. (They were
right, I couldn't get it to work, despite finding several code samples on
the web that never worked either... :-). It was a simple play of a sound
file and I used the <PARAM> tags to tell it to hiode the player etcetera,
but it wouldn't. Their recommendation was to continue using EMBED in the
meantime.
I'm not sure about 'grabbing the DTD' do I go to the namespace URL to do
this or how does it work?
>
> As a matter of fact, let's just run your page through the by-URL
> validator[1]... 127 errors. Well, there you have it.
>
Hang on a minute :-) What is the level of these 'errors'? Are they fatal? I
wouldn't rewrite a COBOL program because it produced 127 'W' level
errors... (I'd probably take another look at the code though... ;-))
>
> 1. http://validator.w3.org/
>
Thanks very much for the information. CLC is actually helping me immensely
with this. Even though it isn't directly COBOL related.
Pete.
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2005-05-05, 3:55 am |
|
"Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1115233236.428663.127540@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> Geez, Peter, how many times have you said _that_ before ?
>
> Just make it so.
>
I reserve the right to respond to anyone.
In fact for over a year I DIDN'T respond to his posts or even comment on
them.
See how long you fail to respond when he twists what you say, or makes it
up.
I don't intend to respond further, but, circumstances can change.
Pete.
| |
| Richard 2005-05-05, 3:55 am |
| > That sounds like a really interesting arrangement, Donald.
> Would you happen to have a link where I can get Mandrake?
The easiest way to get Mandrake 10.1 in NZ is to rush down to your
local bookshop and get the APC magazine for April 2005 which has a
cover DVD with this on it.
(No use if you don't have a DVD/CDRW).
APC is 'Australian PC', so is not available in other places but other
magazines carry this, such as Linux Format (UK).
The May issue may already be out so April's may have gone from the
shelves.
| |
|
| Pete Dashwood wrote:
> Dan,
>
> I can't thank you enough for this.
>
> Superb.
Don't mention it. (I'm guessing you haven't seen whether it was
*accurate* or not yet? ;> )
> Did you try it with the changes you suggested?
>
> If you find it is OK in Netscape/Firefox, please mail it to me and I'll post
> it to the server.
I'm planning to. We're leaving for vacation on Friday, so there are
lots of preparations for that - but, I do plan to give it a shot, just
because I'm intrigued. :) (At work, they're checking to see if they
can find a laptop I can check out - if they do, I should have something
for you when I get back, around May 15th.)
> I understand if you don't have time; I've still learned a bundle from your
> post and will make the changes when I get time. At the moment I'm trying to
> write a very complex corporate report that is driving me up the wall and
> occupying most of my energy. And I have a number of people I must see this
> and next w which means some travelling and fairly intense negotiation
> (even though I love it, it is still draining... :-)).
Sounds like you and I are in similar boats!
>
> Comments interspersed below...
>
> "LX-i" <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:3508f$42783ecd$45491c57$18828@KNOLO
GY.NET...
>
>
> That's just for the click.
I may see if I can get that working too - but, it's the bottom of the
list. :)
>
> It's just too risky for me at the moment. On Friday I have a session
> scheduled with a local vendor to supply hardware to my spec. I'm looking at
> a notebook with 17in screen (built in video camera), P4 3+ GHz processor,
> 100GB HD (2 of these; one external for image copy), wireless and the works.
> I'll load XP Pro on it and MAY set up a dual boot partition with Linux. (I
> am also getting two other systems built for friends, so we should get a
> reasonable deal...) Until I have that lot configured and working, and have
> transferred everything from the existing machine and backed it all up to the
> external hard drive on the new machine, I won't be installing anything new,
> anywhere... :-)
I understand. I just wanted to let you know that it *does* behave even
when it's not the default browser (unlike some others, which have a hard
time accepting your decision).
There is one oddity I've found with my setup at work. I have Firefox
set to be my default browser for "web content" - so, if I click on a web
link in Outlook, it opens in Firefox instead of IE. (Really confuses
the folks looking over my shoulder, too!) If I want to see how a page
looks in IE (or access a site that doesn't support anything else), I
just have to open it, then type the address into the address bar (or
Ctrl-O). This works great for web sites - but, if I type the location
of an XML file on my local computer, it opens it... in Firefox! (What
I ended up doing was defining .xml files to go to IE by default - but
that's kind of kludgey. Of course, our target browser at work is
exclusively IE, so it's not really a hindrance...)
>
> I knew I needed to qualify it to the document, and I tried:
> document.tables.tabmonths.disabled = true; Of course it didn't work and I
> really didn't have time to bugger about with it. I've never seen
> 'getElementById' and it is so ... :-)
I think "tables" is a collection - need to double-check, but I think you
use it like the "forms" collection; use an index or a name.
>
> yeah, it's neat...
I'm looking forward to going back to some pages I built that were only
tested in IE, and only seem to work in IE. If I can make it work in
Firefox, it should work great most everywhere else (at least that's been
my experience so far).
>
> Oh no! I'll check that out too. I understand and am careful with case
> sensitivity in JavaScript but I may have goofed on that one...
I'm not sure about the rules for XHTML Transitional, but in XHTML
Strict, all the HTML tags and attributes are lower-case. Once I get the
script working, I'm going to run it through the W3C's validator, just to
see what I get. I've got a Tidy plug-in (that's *a* W3C validator) on
Firefox, and right now it's giving 23 warnings. Of course, it can give
me a green check mark (no warnings or errors), but the validator will
still gripe about some stuff. :)
> I'm in your debt.
I don't think you've crossed over into the negative on the give and take
here... :) I'm just glad what I've learned is of some value to someone
else.
(If you don't hear from me by Friday afternoon USA time, it'll be after
May 14th.)
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \ / ~ Live from Montgomery, AL! ~
~ / \/ o ~ ~
~ / /\ - | ~ daniel@thebelowdomain ~
~ _____ / \ | ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e ~
~ h---- r+++ z++++ ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
|
| LX-i wrote:
> I'm planning to. We're leaving for vacation on Friday, so there are
> lots of preparations for that - but, I do plan to give it a shot, just
> because I'm intrigued. :) (At work, they're checking to see if they
> can find a laptop I can check out - if they do, I should have something
> for you when I get back, around May 15th.)
Well, that didn't take long. It still looks strange, but with a few
tweaks, it worked. And now, my times...
Typing - 11.11
Clicking - 24.07
I still want to clean it up a little before sending it along, but be
checking your inbox for it. :)
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \ / ~ Live from Montgomery, AL! ~
~ / \/ o ~ ~
~ / /\ - | ~ daniel@thebelowdomain ~
~ _____ / \ | ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e ~
~ h---- r+++ z++++ ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
| docdwarf@panix.com 2005-05-05, 3:55 am |
| In article <31jde.170917$cg1.100418@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Arnold Trembley <arnold.trembley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
[snip]
>When I try to use a mouse to select Month and digits for the year,
>nothing happens.
[snip]
>I'm using Netscape 7.2, and I believe I have javascript enabled.
Ditto. Netscape 4.8, java/javascript disabled.
Keyboard is infinitely faster?
DD
| |
|
| "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3dt813F3gn2U1@individual.net...
> Cheers JCE.
>
> I also use the image copy approach for backup.
>
> Not sure about GAG as I can't go round any more learning curves right
> now...
> Maybe a future option.
Maybe you aren't interested which is fine, but the learning curve for GAG is
about 40 seconds [as long as you know your bootable partition]
Go to www.google.com/linux search for gag. First entry.
JCE
| |
| Richard 2005-05-05, 3:55 am |
| > The May issue may already be out
It is, I just cycled down the road (that's the easy bit, then there is
cycling back up) and got the May issue which has SimplyMEPIS 3.3. The
ISO for needs to be read from the DVD and written to a CD. MEPIS will
boot and run from the CD without doing anything on the hard disk for
checking it out, and can then resize a partition to give it room to
install, hust like Mandrake does.
It will access Windows partitions so can be used to back up.
| |
|
|
A lot of distributions will automatically install a boot manager to help you
dual boot. Mandrake is traditionally ranked in the top few for ease of
install (along with Redhat's Anaconda? and Suse's Yast) so I'm not going to
suggest it's a poor choice at all....the new version is Mandriva - in
typical fashion renames itself for confusion
There are a number of pro's and con's to each distro however. The main
issue with getting a "freebie" version is just limited to the support. I
would look at what software you want to run and then do a quick search on
them to establish if there are any typical problems.
I for one, have had problems with certain aspects of both Fedora and with
Suse. I have Fedora now because it happed to install my copy of websphere
studio with less pain than anything else I've tried, though I regret this
decision as I definitely preferred the Suse maintenance. There is a
distribution that intrigues me - White Box (it was mentioned by another clc
user on another thread) -this is supposedly a "red hat" distribution without
the "red hat" proprietary stuff.
I guess my point is that you should look at what you need and then pick a
distro because my experience is that upgrading is just a pain. Mandriva
might work just fine for you or might not. As you already do your own
backup images you might want to look into something like Linsight which
installs "within" windows. Some versions also get much better support group
support. I haven't looked around much but my point is that the majority of
distro's really take care of you better than they used to. I remember
having to do recompilations of the kernel to get my cable modem to work....I
cannot even remember how to do that anymore and doubt I will ever need to.
Check out http://distrowatch.com/ there are literally hundreds to choose
from.....and COBOL is supported on every one of them I"m sure - I'll have to
check the faq :-)
JCE
"Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3dt7q1F3k3fU1@individual.net...
> That sounds like a really interesting arrangement, Donald.
>
> Would you happen to have a link where I can get Mandrake?
>
> Pete.
>
> Top POST no more below
>
> "Donald Tees" <donald_tees@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:Zh5ee.9698$3U.691966@news20.bellglobal.com...
> at
> processor,
> works.
> (I
> have
> the
> new,
>
>
>
| |
|
| I hate responding to my own posts but...
"jce" <defaultuser@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:q1jee.49111$_t3.43061@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> I guess my point is that you should look at what you need and then pick a
> distro because my experience is that upgrading is just a pain. Mandriva
> might work just fine for you or might not. As you already do your own
> backup images you might want to look into something like Linsight which
> installs "within" windows. Some versions also get much better support
> group
This is Linspire not Linsight....it installs from Windows but I don't
believe runs natively within Windows...
I remembered the other one I forgot....http://www.colinux.org/ which runs
natively in Windows XP
I've not used either, but I'm thinking of trying colinux as it seems
conceptually a good idea in the case where you want to test multiple
environments without VMWARE (unless there is an opensource version of that
now too).
JCE
| |
| docdwarf@panix.com 2005-05-05, 8:55 am |
| In article <87c71$42798436$45491c57$9298@KNOLOGY.NET>,
LX-i <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote:
[snip]
>There is one oddity I've found with my setup at work. I have Firefox
>set to be my default browser for "web content" - so, if I click on a web
>link in Outlook, it opens in Firefox instead of IE. (Really confuses
>the folks looking over my shoulder, too!) If I want to see how a page
>looks in IE (or access a site that doesn't support anything else), I
>just have to open it, then type the address into the address bar (or
>Ctrl-O).
<https://addons.update.mozilla.org/e...ication=firefox>
(In case the URL doesn't work I suggest you click Tools ==> Extensions ==>
Get More Extensions and add one called 'ieview'.
DD
| |
| Richard 2005-05-05, 8:55 am |
| > May issue which has SimplyMEPIS 3.3.
Oooh, that is really nice.
I booted off the CD on my laptop and it found all the hardware,
configured the network (I do run a DHCP server on my Freesco
gateway/firewall on an old P100) and even showed the weather. I could
access the Windows and Mandrake partitions.
It has KCE 3.3.x (Mandrake 10.1 only has 3.2.x) and Konqueror used as a
file manager (it is also a nice web browser using Netscape engine)
shows the file icons with its actual content. eg if a file is a PDF it
starts by showing the adode and when it gets around to it (in another
thread) it opens and shows a small preview of the first page. Text
files show the first few words readably, images show as thumbs, etc.
Put the mouse over and it shows a larger view of the first page.
Isn't that going to be an 'innovation' in Longhorn in a couple of years
?
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2005-05-05, 3:55 pm |
| "Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1115256630.771280.8890@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> The easiest way to get Mandrake 10.1 in NZ is to rush down to your
> local bookshop and get the APC magazine for April 2005 which has a
> cover DVD with this on it.
>
Thanks Richard,
I'll check a few supermarkets. I do occasionally buy a copy of APC so I'm
familiar with it.
(I used to write a column for one of its competitors, which is now defunct.
"Your Computer"... Don't know if you remember it. It may not have been
available in NZ; I was working in Sydney at the time. (late 80s, if memory
serves...)
I'm pretty sure it's demise was nothing to do with my column :-) Had some
interesting (and often humourous) feedback from readers, and the staff
cartoonist used to do some brilliant illustrations for my articles.)
> (No use if you don't have a DVD/CDRW).
>
I do... several in fact ;-). I had one go dodgy so I bought an external one.
Then I found it so useful I acquired another one... Meantime, I found out
the dodgy one was fine and it just needed to have the driver
re-installed...:-)
> APC is 'Australian PC', so is not available in other places but other
> magazines carry this, such as Linux Format (UK).
>
> The May issue may already be out so April's may have gone from the
> shelves.
>
I guess I can do a web search if I can't get it. I have Broadband now, so a
lengthy download is no problem.
Pete.
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2005-05-05, 3:55 pm |
|
"Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1115272935.526096.296320@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> It is, I just cycled down the road (that's the easy bit, then there is
> cycling back up) and got the May issue which has SimplyMEPIS 3.3. The
> ISO for needs to be read from the DVD and written to a CD. MEPIS will
> boot and run from the CD without doing anything on the hard disk for
> checking it out, and can then resize a partition to give it room to
> install, hust like Mandrake does.
>
OK, I'll check it out. Thanks.
Pete.
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2005-05-05, 3:55 pm |
|
"Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1115283800.540199.145770@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> Oooh, that is really nice.
>
> I booted off the CD on my laptop and it found all the hardware,
> configured the network (I do run a DHCP server on my Freesco
> gateway/firewall on an old P100) and even showed the weather. I could
> access the Windows and Mandrake partitions.
>
What, no coffee? Tell it mine's white, no sugar... :-)
> It has KCE 3.3.x (Mandrake 10.1 only has 3.2.x) and Konqueror used as a
> file manager (it is also a nice web browser using Netscape engine)
> shows the file icons with its actual content. eg if a file is a PDF it
> starts by showing the adode and when it gets around to it (in another
> thread) it opens and shows a small preview of the first page. Text
> files show the first few words readably, images show as thumbs, etc.
>
> Put the mouse over and it shows a larger view of the first page.
>
> Isn't that going to be an 'innovation' in Longhorn in a couple of years
> ?
>
You are nothing if not tenacious... :-). Your enthusiasm has encouraged me
to go this path. Now all I need is another computer... ah, tomorrow is
Friday and I have an appointment with an engineer in Papamoa... :-)
Pete.
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2005-05-05, 3:55 pm |
|
"Donald Tees" <donald_tees@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:I%fee.6000$VL3.562977@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
>
> http://www.mandriva.com/
>
> Donald
>
Thanks Donald it saved me a web search, which, as I have no idea what I'm
looking for, would probably have failed. :-) I'm going to get Richard's DVD,
but Ill keep your link for reference also.
Pete.
| |
| docdwarf@panix.com 2005-05-05, 3:55 pm |
| In article <1115283800.540199.145770@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
Richard <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote:
>
>Oooh, that is really nice.
>
>I booted off the CD on my laptop and it found all the hardware,
>configured the network (I do run a DHCP server on my Freesco
>gateway/firewall on an old P100) and even showed the weather. I could
>access the Windows and Mandrake partitions.
It has been a while since I've wanted to look at a new OS... but this
evaluation has piqued my interest. Since I am in a civilised part of the
world...
.... errrrrr, since I'm not in The Antipodes I don't have ready access to
the magazine mentioned; a quick bit o' Googling brought up:
http://distrowatch.com/?newsid=02596#0
.... which allows one to download
<ftp://ftp.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/dis....3.1.test01.iso>
.... and freeware to burn the .iso to disk may be found at
http://www.k7v.com/nonags/cdr.html
DD
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2005-05-05, 3:55 pm |
| Cheers for the info. I saved the link and wull check it out when I have the
system.
I really need some kind of "Introduction to Linux" because I have no idea
what the products are that you mentioned. "Suse"?, "White Hat"?.
Here's what I know (if I had a postage stamp, I could write it down... :-)):
1. Linux is an Operating System that was written by a Scandinavian guy (I
guess the winter's are cold up there and there isn't much to do...) who
kindly made it available to the world as an alternative to MicroSoft OSes.
Ever since then, people have been making money out of it... Shrink wrapped
boxes, support,
2. It comes as 'distributions' which you tailor to your needs. Degrees of
difficulty in doing this seem to vary.
3. It has a penguin for its symbol.
4. Some people swear by it, others swear at it...
6. It can "peacefully co-exist" with Microsoft Windows on the same system
provided it has its own partition. Such systems are said to be "dual
bootable" (I guess each partition must have its own boot track...?)
That's the full printoput on Dashwood's Linux knowledge.
(As you can see, I am just the man to install it for you.... :-))
Pete.
Some further quick points below...
"jce" <defaultuser@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:q1jee.49111$_t3.43061@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
>
> A lot of distributions will automatically install a boot manager to help
you
> dual boot. Mandrake is traditionally ranked in the top few for ease of
> install (along with Redhat's Anaconda? and Suse's Yast) so I'm not going
to
> suggest it's a poor choice at all....the new version is Mandriva - in
> typical fashion renames itself for confusion
>
So these are distribution names, right?
> There are a number of pro's and con's to each distro however. The main
> issue with getting a "freebie" version is just limited to the support. I
> would look at what software you want to run and then do a quick search on
> them to establish if there are any typical problems.
>
That would be Linux application software?
> I for one, have had problems with certain aspects of both Fedora and with
> Suse. I have Fedora now because it happed to install my copy of websphere
> studio with less pain than anything else I've tried, though I regret this
> decision as I definitely preferred the Suse maintenance.
And Suse and Fedora are both distribution names?
With so many distributions, how does a newbie decide? Ah, sorry, you already
answered that. You should consider the applications you want to run, right?
> There is a
> distribution that intrigues me - White Box (it was mentioned by another
clc
> user on another thread) -this is supposedly a "red hat" distribution
without
> the "red hat" proprietary stuff.
>
> I guess my point is that you should look at what you need and then pick a
> distro because my experience is that upgrading is just a pain. Mandriva
> might work just fine for you or might not. As you already do your own
> backup images you might want to look into something like Linsight which
> installs "within" windows. Some versions also get much better support
group
> support. I haven't looked around much but my point is that the majority
of
> distro's really take care of you better than they used to. I remember
> having to do recompilations of the kernel to get my cable modem to
work....I
> cannot even remember how to do that anymore and doubt I will ever need to.
>
Well, that's encouraging, at least.
> Check out http://distrowatch.com/ there are literally hundreds to choose
> from.....and COBOL is supported on every one of them I"m sure - I'll have
to
> check the faq :-)
I certainly shall. And thanks muchly for what looks like very sound advice.
Pete.
<snip>
| |
|
| jce wrote:
> A lot of distributions will automatically install a boot manager to help you
> dual boot. Mandrake is traditionally ranked in the top few for ease of
> install (along with Redhat's Anaconda? and Suse's Yast) so I'm not going to
> suggest it's a poor choice at all....the new version is Mandriva - in
> typical fashion renames itself for confusion
Red Hat (and, by extension, White Box (WBEL) and Fedora) do as well. On
the machine I'm using now, I wiped it clean, allocated a 100MB partition
first on the drive, then split the rest of the drive between two others.
XP installed on the second partition, and put its boot stuff where it
needed to be. Then, when I installed WBEL, it found that partition, and
put it as a "DOS" choice in the boot loader. (Once I got WBEL up and
running, I just went into grub.conf and changed "DOS" to "Microsoft
Windows XP".)
> There are a number of pro's and con's to each distro however. The main
> issue with getting a "freebie" version is just limited to the support. I
> would look at what software you want to run and then do a quick search on
> them to establish if there are any typical problems.
That's one of the reasons I run WBEL - it tracks RHEL, and you *know*
that Red Hat is going to fix their stuff when it breaks. :) From what
I've seen on the user list, about the only applications that are giving
people fits are Oracle (which has a long list of things you have to do -
if you follow it to the letter, it works - so I've been told) and MythTV
(which typically wants a 2.6 kernel - WBEL 3 uses a 2.4 kernel, with
lots of updates (WBEL 4, based on RHEL 4, uses a 2.6)).
> I for one, have had problems with certain aspects of both Fedora and with
> Suse. I have Fedora now because it happed to install my copy of websphere
> studio with less pain than anything else I've tried, though I regret this
> decision as I definitely preferred the Suse maintenance. There is a
> distribution that intrigues me - White Box (it was mentioned by another clc
> user on another thread) -this is supposedly a "red hat" distribution without
> the "red hat" proprietary stuff.
Yep! :)
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \ / ~ Live from Montgomery, AL! ~
~ / \/ o ~ ~
~ / /\ - | ~ daniel@thebelowdomain ~
~ _____ / \ | ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e ~
~ h---- r+++ z++++ ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
| Michael Mattias 2005-05-05, 3:55 pm |
| "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3dufb8F8ds9U1@individual.net...
.. [ about three things]
> That's the full printoput on Dashwood's Linux knowledge.
Wel, then, here's a handy command for you to add to your knowledge base.:
rm * -r
Don't try this at home.
Really.
Don't.
MCM
| |
| Michael Wojcik 2005-05-05, 3:55 pm |
|
In article <3dt8n1F3a7pU1@individual.net>, "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> writes:
>
> "Michael Wojcik" <mwojcik@newsguy.com> wrote in message
> news:d5al4p017kk@news1.newsguy.com...
>
> Dreamweaver also has a verifier which I used. The only tags it flagged were
> the EMBED tags.
Well, the people who make Dreamweaver are under no pressure to make
their verifier conform to the current standards, or indeed to do anything
useful at all.
> These were for the sound file (click) object. The W3C site
> agreed that EMBED should be replaced by OBJECT (which I did) but then went
> on to say that OBJECT is flaky in some Browsers and may not work. (They were
> right, I couldn't get it to work, despite finding several code samples on
> the web that never worked either... :-).
I have never used the OBJECT tag myself (it's not something I'd be
inclined to use), so I couldn't say. My system blocks embedded
controls anyway, unless I explicitly allow them.
It's unfortunate if current browsers don't implement part of the
current HTML specification correctly. My preference would be to
avoid those things that aren't handled, rather than try to work
around them, but opinions differ. (My preferences work well for me
because I'm generally a minimalist when it comes to user interfaces
anyway. I dislike bells and whistles - or clicks.)
> Their recommendation was to continue using EMBED in the meantime.
Out of curiousity, was this recommendation the W3C's, or Dreamweaver's?
> I'm not sure about 'grabbing the DTD' do I go to the namespace URL to do
> this or how does it work?
It's included with the spec. See [1]. The W3C's preference, from
most to least, is that you tell your parser to reference it from the
official location, or download the complete specification archive and
extract it, or fetch it through the links in the spec. But it doesn't
really matter if you're just looking to validate a few pages.
>
> Hang on a minute :-) What is the level of these 'errors'? Are they fatal?
That doesn't apply to validation errors. Either a document is valid
or it is not. A conforming reader can refuse to process an invalid
document, so any error is potentially "fatal".
I am at heart a language lawyer, so I like to follow the spec as
closely as possible. Others may of course prefer a different
accomodation.
1. http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#dtds
--
Michael Wojcik michael.wojcik@microfocus.com
But I still wouldn't count out the monkey - modern novelists being as
unpredictable as they are at times. -- Marilyn J. Miller
| |
| Michael Wojcik 2005-05-05, 3:55 pm |
|
In article <3dufb8F8ds9U1@individual.net>, "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> writes:
>
> I really need some kind of "Introduction to Linux" because I have no idea
> what the products are that you mentioned. "Suse"?, "White Hat"?.
They're two of the many Linux distributions. Linux itself is properly
just the OS kernel, though that's grown (mostly via dynamically-loaded
modules, so it's not an enormous monolith like some of the Unix kernels
of old) so much that it's practically an entire ear. But when people
say "Linux" they usually mean the OS and all sorts of other tasty bits
it takes to make a usable general-purpose system.
The distributions collect a kernel release and various kernel
modules, the rest of the base OS (mostly taken from GNU, which is the
Free Software Foundation's free implementation of Unix), OS
extensions like support libraries and X Windows, and some of the
many, many free utilities and applications. Then they make that
collection available in some form for people to acquire and install.
Distributions also generally have some form of "package management"
to make installing optional components and upgrading to new releases
more convenient.
Since there's no one central authority for all the software that
comprises what most people think of as a "Linux system", distros do
the work of gathering it up, throwing it in a box, and tying a nice
ribbon around it.
> Here's what I know (if I had a postage stamp, I could write it down... :-)):
>
> 1. Linux is an Operating System that was written by a Scandinavian guy (I
> guess the winter's are cold up there and there isn't much to do...) who
> kindly made it available to the world as an alternative to MicroSoft OSes.
Well, Linus wrote the original kernel, and continues to maintain it,
though there are hundreds of active kernel developers now. And he
made it available mostly because he wrote it and wanted to see people
playing with it. When Linux first appeared, it was just one of
several simple homebrew OSes for x86 machines: Minix and BSD/386 were
also available, for example. And, of course, there were quite a few
commercial OSes out at the time besides Windows - MS-DOS / PC-DOS,
OS/2, SCO ODT, Coherent, and no doubt others that have slipped my
mind.
But as I noted above, most of what people usually call "Linux" is
actually GNU and various third-party efforts. The FSF used to whine
that people didn't call the OS "GNU/Linux", but they clearly weren't
winning that one. (Ideologues often get things done, but they rarely
win popularity contests.)
> 2. It comes as 'distributions' which you tailor to your needs. Degrees of
> difficulty in doing this seem to vary.
Yep. Of course, you can also put it together from scratch, if you're
a masochist.
> 3. It has a penguin for its symbol.
Indeed it does.
> 4. Some people swear by it, others swear at it...
It has ever been thus.
> 6. It can "peacefully co-exist" with Microsoft Windows on the same system
> provided it has its own partition. Such systems are said to be "dual
> bootable"
Actually, there are a few ways to have it co-exist without a
separate boot partition, but that's the easiest approach - unless
you already have VMWare or Virtual PC installed, in which case it's
pretty darn easy to just install it into a virtual machine. I have
an old Red Hat distro running under NT4 that way.
> (I guess each partition must have its own boot track...?)
Not exactly. (This isn't Linux-specific, by the way; multi-booting
x86 systems has been around pretty much since they got hard drives.
Most of my systems have multiple boot options, largely because it's
a hard habit to break once you get into it. I have a Win2K partition
on this machine I've never used...)
x86 systems have a "master boot record" (MBR) which tells the machine
which partition to boot. Some OSes can boot from logical or physical
partitions; others can only boot from physical ones. There are
various add-on boot loaders available, free and commercial (eg System
Commander), which can give you lots of booting flexibility, but these
days OSes come with at least simple boot managers. NT-based Windows
versions, for example, have a built-in boot manager that you can
configure through some control panel or by editing the file boot.ini
in the root directory of your boot drive. (It may be marked as
"system" and/or "hidden" in a default install; I have little patience
for that sort of thing, so I routinely ignore file attributes.)
All the gory details of the x86 boot process are no doubt documented
on the 'net, but for many people it's enough to know that they can
install many OSes in "multiboot" mode and it'll set everything up for
them. (Of course, backing up before installing is always a good
idea.)
--
Michael Wojcik michael.wojcik@microfocus.com
He described a situation where a man is there to feed a dog and the dog is
there to keep the man from touching the equipment. -- Anthony F. Giombetti
| |
| Richard 2005-05-05, 8:55 pm |
| > Linux is an Operating System
The OS is actually GNU/Linux. GNU stands for GNU is Not Unix and this
covers much of the support stuff. Linux is just the Kernel. GNU could
use other kernels, such as Hurd, but this is not finished yet.
> It comes as 'distributions'
Yes. Slackware, RedHat, Mandrake (French) + Connectiva (Brazil) are now
Mandriva, Lupis (Taiwan), RedFlag(China), SUSE (German now owned by
Novell), JavaDesktop (Sun), Ubantu (SouthAfrica), .... There is/was a
NZ distro but can't remember.
Then there are specialised distros, some will boot of a single floppy
such as Freesco (firewall/gateway), PocketLinux (telnet client), LPD
(printer server), LOAF, etc. Some require a small HD such as
Smoothwall (firewall - recommended). Some over the network - LTSP
(diskless GUI clients - brilliant). Some from a CD - RescueIsPossible,
SimplyMEPIS, .. these may be as rescue disks, for using and saving work
to USB drive or for demos. Some boot and run from a USB drive - the
idea is that you can use most any machine to do your work, just boot to
USB.
> It can "peacefully co-exist" with Microsoft Windows
Some will run inside Windows, such as CoLinux, on the Windows partition
and run as a window. You can do the same the other way by installing
Win4Lin and then Windows onto a Linux system and then running Windows
in a window on Linux. Most modern distros will resize partitions and
install with no hassles (back up first of course just in case), or just
run from CD.
> With so many distributions, how does a newbie decide?
The same way they choose which car to buy, they write down the features
they want, itemise all the availble models and rank them according to
criteria and then buy the pink one because the wife likes the colour.
> You should consider the applications you want to run, right?
All applications should run on all distros as long as they have the
dependencies. Most desktop systems come with OpenOffice, KOffice,
Apache, Perl, Python, PHP, PostGreSQL, MySQL, etc, etc, etc.
Some software requires specific versions for particular support: Oracle
requires that it be run on RHEL (Red Hat Enterprise Linux) but
primarily for support reasons.
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2005-05-05, 8:55 pm |
| Excellent Don. Thanks very much for that.
I may not be wiser, but I am certainly much better informed... :-)
Pete
TOP POST but I haven't snipped it because other newbies may find it as
helpful as I did...
"Donald Tees" <donald_tees@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4bqee.14268$3U.948063@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Pete Dashwood wrote:
the[color=darkred]
idea[color=darkred]
>
> Well, it looks like I have an hour before I can do much, so let me see
> if I can fill you in on a few basics.
>
> To talk about "Linux" is really a bit of a misnomer ... the real topic
> is the GPL, or general public licence. That is a legal agreement of
> copyright ... that the software under it will be distributed in *source
> code*, and may be used freely under that licence *provided* that all
> subsequent code using it also includes source, original source, and
> attribution to the authors. That is the gist of it. The full agreement
> and thousands of articles are freely available for further reading.
>
> Thousands of programs have been written under the GPL. They include
> everything from the Appache web server, to the Openorg office suite
> (spreadsheet, word processor, etc.). They also include *several* Gui's,
> that run under Linux as clients. Most of them run using the GPL Xorg
> screen routines, so are compatible. As well, it includes Linux itself
> (normally called the kernel), and compilers to compile it all. Strictly
> by the licence,though, you are entitled to and get *source code*. And
> that on a module by module basis, from the owners.
>
> In theory then, you can go out and get the kernel source, compile it for
> your specific machine, gather in a gui and a set of tools, compile them,
> and then arrange it all in the spiffiest one-off that has ever been
> designed for a home system. In fact, not many people (including me) have
> the knowledge or the time to do so.
>
> In come distributions. A distribution (Mandrake, Red Hat, Suse, etc.)
> is a group or company that have done exactly that. The typical
> distribution is put together in standard install disk(s). Load and go.
> It will contain a pre-compiled kernel for a class of machines, and a
> huge amount of "other" software ... whatever the distributers care to
> test and package as part of the distribution. Mandrake, for example,
> comes in two forms ... a 32 bit and a 64 bit. Each is a single boot
> DVD, or a set of boot CD's.
>
> There are really dozens and dozens of distro's ... the install for an
> advanced distro, for example, will normally be a special Linux that runs
> with memory disks only. Knopix is a distro that will load and go from
> a CD with *no* native disks. It can look at drives for other systems
> though, and can run tests, and can do things like re-partition a hard
> disk. There are special distro's for PDA's, for game boxes, etc. The
> Mac OSx is a distro by them specifically set up for their hardware. And
> so on.
>
> Mandrake, Suse, and Red hat seem to be the main distro's, and each of
> them contains several things. They come with Kernal, two or three
> GUI's, and a whole slew of pre-compiled applications, all tied up neatly
> into menu's and stuff. The result may look like a window system, but
> really is not.
>
> It is an open OS, that runs as a client/server model, full fledged
> multi-user system ... unix at the command line, with enough security
> that logged in as a normal user, I cannot change even another user's
> data, let alone the OS software (as with a virus). You can log in
> remotely, have a web server and/or FTP server, etc. All the goodies of
> a "main frame" service bureau timesharing service.
>
> Then, on top of that, you have a user logging in and using a GUI,
> browser, etc., in the local user space. That is the reason the security
> is so good ... if I log in as a user and erase everything I can find on
> the disk, I only harm my own account. I can then log out, log in as an
> administrator, and create a new account for myself that will be set up
> from scratch. That user will start with a brand new "welcome to" screen
> etc., just like a new OS for a single user. I digress.
>
> RPM files. The RPM file is a relatively new way of packaging Linux
> software. This is a system, actually, that unpacks, compiles, installs
> and keeps track of software installed in a local data base. It has
> facilities for checking specified sites for changes, upgrades etc, and
> automatically installing them. It can also remove software, give you
> lists of dependancies, etc. I would recogmend to any beginner that they
> stick to RPM packages until they have their feet wet. Mandrake and Suse
> both use this package by default.
>
> KDE and Gnome. KDE and Gnome are the two more poular GUI's. Both run
> under Xorg screens, so can co-exist. The Xorg screen's can run remotely
> under both Windows and Linux, so you can run a program on a windows
> machine that is actually running on a remote Linux server. KDE is a
> more business-like look to me ... quite a formal screen. Gnome looks
> more like a kid's toy, bright colours, larger icons. Lots swear by it,
> though, and I understand it is extremely good for those with bad eyes.
>
> There are also several stripped down GUIs that would be ideal for
> building OEM systems. I can start with a blank screen and no menu's, for
> example, and build a very restricted GUI for something like a cash
> register.
>
> Caveats. The learning curve is horendous. After a year, I am past the
> screaming in rage and banging on my screen with the keyboard stage, but
> not by a lot. Documentation ranges from not too bad to "what?". There
> are a million variations for everything, and only 75 of each have been
> tried. The people that tried them in 70 of those cases will be rude and
> obnoxious. They will talk to you, but probably not until after you have
> figured it out for yourself (what else is new?).
>
> Bottom line ... I am having more fun than I've had for years, and the
> damned thing does *exactly* what you tell it to. If you are really
> stuck ... check the source. There are no secrets. Backup and restore
> work, without having to jump through hoops. The annoyances are of the
> "so *thats* the way it works!" sort rather than "those bastards! they
> screwed me AGAIN!" type. I like it.
>
> Donald
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2005-05-05, 8:55 pm |
| Michael,
stop screwing with my head and tell me what it does! :-)
Pete.
"Michael Mattias" <michael.mattias@gte.net> wrote in message
news:O%oee.1656$6E.363@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
> "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:3dufb8F8ds9U1@individual.net...
> . [ about three things]
>
> Wel, then, here's a handy command for you to add to your knowledge base.:
>
> rm * -r
>
> Don't try this at home.
> Really.
> Don't.
>
> MCM
>
>
>
>
>
>
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2005-05-05, 8:55 pm |
|
"Michael Wojcik" <mwojcik@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:d5dbku01kmn@news4.newsguy.com...
>
> In article <3dt8n1F3a7pU1@individual.net>, "Pete Dashwood"
<dashwood@enternet.co.nz> writes:
were[color=darkred]
>
> Well, the people who make Dreamweaver are under no pressure to make
> their verifier conform to the current standards, or indeed to do anything
> useful at all.
Fair comment. Nevertheless, Macromedia have established credibility with
their products so it is reasonable that if one selects 'Netscape 6' for
verification, one can expect it to be verified.
Daniel was very kind and downloaded my source from the site, verified it
with the tools you mentioned and made some relatively minor amendments. He
tells me it now works under both Browsers, but without sound. I have posted
his amended page (which contains his very helpful comments) to the web
server, and if you try the page now, it SHOULD work in non-MS Browsers. I
have examined his amendments and comments at length and learned much from
this exercise.
I'm still looking to find a way to get the sound file to work in Netscape,
without stopping everything else, and still working in IE as well...
>
went[color=darkred]
were[color=darkred]
on[color=darkred]
>
> I have never used the OBJECT tag myself (it's not something I'd be
> inclined to use), so I couldn't say. My system blocks embedded
> controls anyway, unless I explicitly allow them.
>
> It's unfortunate if current browsers don't implement part of the
> current HTML specification correctly. My preference would be to
> avoid those things that aren't handled, rather than try to work
> around them, but opinions differ. (My preferences work well for me
> because I'm generally a minimalist when it comes to user interfaces
> anyway. I dislike bells and whistles - or clicks.)
I respect your right to have whatever preference you have. I tried running
it in IE without the click and it was spooky... :-). Thatw as why I added
the click. Some people (specifically, me...:-)) like to have some feedback
from events. If I click, I want to know it was registered and not wait for
two more clicks before I find out...
>
>
> Out of curiousity, was this recommendation the W3C's, or Dreamweaver's?
That was posted on the W3C site in their docs on HTML language (I think...
not sure now).
>
>
> It's included with the spec. See [1]. The W3C's preference, from
> most to least, is that you tell your parser to reference it from the
> official location, or download the complete specification archive and
> extract it, or fetch it through the links in the spec. But it doesn't
> really matter if you're just looking to validate a few pages.
>
fatal?[color=darkred]
>
> That doesn't apply to validation errors. Either a document is valid
> or it is not. A conforming reader can refuse to process an invalid
> document, so any error is potentially "fatal".
>
Amazing that it works in IE, isn't it?
> I am at heart a language lawyer, so I like to follow the spec as
> closely as possible. Others may of course prefer a different
> accomodation.
>
>
> 1. http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#dtds
>
Thanks for the link and the advice, Michael. I appreciate your time.
Pete.
| |
| Howard Brazee 2005-05-06, 3:55 am |
| I don't mind mice - but code needs to be written for people who choose not to
use them.
My laser-disk player doesn't have all the buttons I like. I put in a DvD, and
it spends its eternity to get to the main menu (teaching children patience), and
then it wants me to press ENTER to start the movie. My player doesn't have an
ENTER key, so I need to use the remote control. Remote controls are OK, but I
need my glasses to use them. I've heard ads for the latest Boise wave radio -
it doesn't have any buttons, people who use it don't have any choice - they
*must* use the remote control. (When did "remote" become a noun? I'm sooo out
of touch with things).
Give us alternatives.
| |
| Howard Brazee 2005-05-06, 3:55 am |
|
On 2-May-2005, "jce" <defaultuser@hotmail.com> wrote:
> My new remote has a ONE power button. I then have to press the button for
> what I want to turn off / on prior to hitting it. So my daily routine at 6
> pm is...press TV button, press power button, press AUX button so I can
> control the cable....then at about 2 am it's press the TV button, press
> power button.....unless I get up and press it on the TV itself.
Talk about user friendly.
Nowadays, when you hire a babysitter, it takes 5 minutes to show how the TV
works - and you had better not forget to teach him/her how your phone works.
| |
|
| docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
> In article <87c71$42798436$45491c57$9298@KNOLOGY.NET>,
> LX-i <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
>
>
> <https://addons.update.mozilla.org/e...ication=firefox>
>
> (In case the URL doesn't work I suggest you click Tools ==> Extensions ==>
> Get More Extensions and add one called 'ieview'.
I didn't mean that it's odd that a link in Outlook opens in Firefox -
the oddity was XML files that *always* opened in Firefox, even when I
opened them using Ctrl+O from within IE.
Thanks for the link about the plug-in, though - that's pretty . :)
--
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| Howard Brazee 2005-05-06, 3:55 am |
|
On 2-May-2005, "Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote:
> that quickly
> get to the movies.
>
> It is to do with licencing. In order to build a product you need to
> licence items protected by patents and copyrights. Part of the licence
> agreement is that parts so marked on the DVD _shall_not_be_skipped_.
> This may include paid advertising.
OK, somebody's going to make a lot of friends by making the solution public
domain the way DvD copy software started off.
Why should people copy movies to TIVO to make it easier to play the kids'
movies?
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2005-05-06, 3:55 am |
|
<docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:d54ri1$h99$1@panix5.panix.com...
> In article <31jde.170917$cg1.100418@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> Arnold Trembley <arnold.trembley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
> [snip]
>
>
> Ditto. Netscape 4.8, java/javascript disabled.
>
As the application is programmed using JavaScript, if the ability to execute
this language is disabled, then the application will not run. That will be
irrespective of any Browser dependent functions, or which Browser is being
used.
> Keyboard is infinitely faster?
Yes, in your case, it wins by default. :-) (I guess I could argue that mouse
took no time at all...? No...I thought not... :-))
Having successfully run BOTH sets of tests, I know that the results are
conclusive (it surprised me). However, I would expect other people to get a
different result because none of us is aware of how our subconscious
affects our behaviour when we do these tests. (I may have tried harder in
one test than I did in the other... I don't think I did, but the whole point
about subconscious is that we are not aware of it.)
For this to be really scientific we would need a baseline of data and a
group of normal users with little or no programming experience, across a
spectrum of ages and backgrounds.
I got someone else to try it and the results were pretty close to my own.
If I get time tomorrow, I'll post some base data to the page (at least one
of the tests I used was designed to stretch mouse movement) and people can
try entering THAT data (if they are so inclined... :-)) Results can then be
compared in a more meaningful way.
Pete.
| |
| docdwarf@panix.com 2005-05-06, 3:55 am |
| In article <3dmffpF6r0ie2U1@individual.net>,
Pete Dashwood <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>
><docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:d54ri1$h99$1@panix5.panix.com...
>
>As the application is programmed using JavaScript, if the ability to execute
>this language is disabled, then the application will not run. That will be
>irrespective of any Browser dependent functions, or which Browser is being
>used.
Well, now... as was stated in that Cinema Classic from 1939, 'The Wizard
of Oz': 'That's a horse of a different color!'
DD
| |
|
|
"Donald Tees" <donald_tees@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
[more than what appears but I snipped forgetting to mark that in
here...sorry]
> It is an open OS, that runs as a client/server model, full fledged
> multi-user system ... unix at the command line, with enough security that
> logged in as a normal user, I cannot change even another user's data, let
> alone the OS software (as with a virus)
This would depend on how well the sy m (you or otherwise) and your users
maintained their environment no?
This is no different to many environments OS - even windows. Your system is
only as strong as its weakest point.
> Then, on top of that, you have a user logging in and using a GUI, browser,
> etc., in the local user space. That is the reason the security is so good
> ... if I log in as a user and erase everything I can find on the disk, I
> only harm my own account.
Again, this is not wholly true. It depends on ....see above.
There are many programs that have in the past been used to exploit Linux -
programs running as "root" even though you are just a plebian user.
I'd be less inclined to comment if you stated that its "more automatically
encouraged". Many distributions will force you to use a non admin
account....but this could also be done in Windows etc etc....people just
view windows as a "home" OS and most "home" users just don't want to deal
with the fact that there are more than one way to protect yourself.
> I can then log out, log in as an administrator, and create a new account
> for myself that will be set up from scratch. That user will start with a
> brand new "welcome to" screen etc., just like a new OS for a single user.
> I digress.
> RPM files. The RPM file is a relatively new way of packaging Linux
> software. This is a system, actually, that unpacks, compiles, installs
> and keeps track of software installed in a local data base. It has
> facilities for checking specified sites for changes, upgrades etc, and
> automatically installing them. It can also remove software, give you
> lists of dependancies, etc. I would recogmend to any beginner that they
> stick to RPM packages until they have their feet wet. Mandrake and Suse
> both use this package by default.
SUSE actually has a delta rpm system now I understand.
> KDE and Gnome. KDE and Gnome are the two more poular GUI's. Both run
> under Xorg screens, so can co-exist. The Xorg screen's can run remotely
> under both Windows and Linux, so you can run a program on a windows
> machine that is actually running on a remote Linux server. KDE is a more
> business-like look to me ... quite a formal screen. Gnome looks more like
> a kid's toy, bright colours, larger icons. Lots swear by it, though, and
> I understand it is extremely good for those with bad eyes.
> There are also several stripped down GUIs that would be ideal for building
> OEM systems. I can start with a blank screen and no menu's, for example,
> and build a very restricted GUI for something like a cash register.
>
> Caveats. The learning curve is horendous. After a year, I am past the
> screaming in rage and banging on my screen with the keyboard stage, but
> not by a lot. Documentation ranges from not too bad to "what?". There
> are a million variations for everything, and only 75 of each have been
> tried. The people that tried them in 70 of those cases will be rude and
> obnoxious. They will talk to you, but probably not until after you have
> figured it out for yourself (what else is new?).
I've found that the Linux community is a varied bunch like CLC. For every
one that is obnoxious there is one that wants to help :-) I have found that
there are occasions when I | | |