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| Author |
Mainframe Architect position-Indianapolis
|
|
| Tom Jaffe 2005-03-10, 3:55 pm |
| A well-respected financial institution in Indianapolis has created a
new opportunity for a Mainframe Architect to analyze their existing
Mainframe environment and make recommendations as to how to migrate to
newer technology (i.e: Client Server). Their mission critical systems
are experiencing rapid growth in processing volume, and need a highly
technical architect who can ensure that their system infrastructure
will continue to support increasing business demands. This position
requires hands-on experience designing and configuring large, complex
computer systems with high-performance, high-availability, and load
balancing properties.
Requires 10+ years in an IBM based Mainframe COBOL/CICS/DB2
environment, and experience with all phases of the System Life
Cycle. Knowledge of client/server technologies such as .NET, Oracle,
C#, and Java is also desired.
This position will provide architectural leadership to a team of
approximately 125 developers, and will have frequent direct contact
with IT senior management, including the CIO. Excellent leadership
and interpersonal skills, along with strong organizational, project
management, and communication skills are essential.
My client offers an excellent salary (up to $115+K), 10% bonus
potential, excellent benefits, and relocation assistance. If
interested, email your resume to Tom Jaffe at tjaffe@eesjobs.com. Call
703-450-4408 if you have any questions.
Tom Jaffe
President
Executive Employment Services, Inc.
tjaffe@eesjobs.com
703-450-4408
| |
| Robert Wagner 2005-03-11, 3:55 am |
| On 10 Mar 2005 07:46:47 -0800, "Tom Jaffe" <tjaffe@eesjobs.com> wrote:
>A well-respected financial institution in Indianapolis has created a
>new opportunity for a Mainframe Architect to analyze their existing
>Mainframe environment and make recommendations as to how to migrate to
>newer technology (i.e: Client Server).
The title should be Computer Systems Architect, not Mainframe
Architect.
>Their mission critical systems
>are experiencing rapid growth in processing volume, and need a highly
>technical architect who can ensure that their system infrastructure
>will continue to support increasing business demands. This position
>requires hands-on experience designing and configuring large, complex
>computer systems with high-performance, high-availability, and load
>balancing properties.
That's what I do.
>Requires 10+ years in an IBM based Mainframe COBOL/CICS/DB2
>environment, and experience with all phases of the System Life
>Cycle. Knowledge of client/server technologies such as .NET, Oracle,
>C#, and Java is also desired.
The primary skill should be client/server, not mainframe and not
..NET/C#. There's no reason to rewrite everything, except to give the
CIO bragging rights. It is far more practical and RELIABLE to port the
mainframe's Cobol programs to client/server. If speed is an issue, as
it sounds in this case, Cobol on the server will be as fast as another
language, if not faster.
The company's speed problem isn't caused by language or platform, it's
caused by a) database partitioning, b) database and index design
(normalized? reduundancy?) and c) application design (clunky SQL?
batch solutions to realtime problems?) Also, the high cost of IBM disk
drives.
>This position will provide architectural leadership to a team of
>approximately 125 developers, and will have frequent direct contact
>with IT senior management, including the CIO. Excellent leadership
>and interpersonal skills, along with strong organizational, project
>management, and communication skills are essential.
In other words, strong political skills in dealing with mainframers
who are pissed because management took their mainframe away ... when
there was no good reason to do so. The job can be done for $55/hr.
| |
| Steve.T 2005-03-11, 3:55 am |
| Well Bob, go for it and tell us how well you did at $.55/hr
Later,
Steve.T
| |
| docdwarf@panix.com 2005-03-11, 3:55 am |
| In article <2al1315b5dnk6k2a39gnaou7jmujsglg0q@4ax.com>,
Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
[snip]
>The job can be done for $55/hr.
Mr Wagner... do you happen to recall what rate was offered in the posting?
DD
| |
|
| >A well-respected financial institution in Indianapolis has created a
> new opportunity for a Mainframe Architect to analyze their existing
> Mainframe environment and make recommendations as to how to migrate to
> newer technology (i.e: Client Server). Their mission critical systems
> are experiencing rapid growth in processing volume, and need a highly
> technical architect who can .... etc. etc.
Rapid growth in volume and you want to move mission critical systems
to client server? Why? Because it's newer technology? Boy are you in
for problems. NO client server beats the I-O power of the mainframe.
If you want fast, efficient, reliable, stable, secure processing, you want
a z/OS server not some click and giggle unix or windows p.o.s..
I'm working on a large mainframe based DB2 system that interfaces
with an ORACLE unix system. We can completely restore the entire
DB2 system to a test environment in a few hours. It takes 3 full days
of intense effort by programmers and DBA's to restore the ORACLE
system with a quarter of the volume. But ooooo it's ORACLE, ooooo
it's client server, oooooo it's better, it's  , management loves the
pretty pictures. It's slow as a turtle and takes forever to get anything done.
You're going to need more personnel, more equipment, more time,
more work and more money than if you had increased and upgraded
mainframe capacity. Good Luck. Every single "take it off the mainframe"
project I've ever observed had been a very expensive fiasco.
And BTW... JAVA, C++, webshere and all the "new" stuff runs
on the mainframe too you know. You can also serve web pages from CICS
you know. Don't build mission critical systems on toy computers using hot new
whiz bang technology that could turn out like 8-track tapes or the Betamax.
You'll be sorry if you do. Tell that to your well-respected financial institution
and I hope they don't shoot themselves in the head.
| |
|
| docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
> In article <2al1315b5dnk6k2a39gnaou7jmujsglg0q@4ax.com>,
> Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
>
>
> Mr Wagner... do you happen to recall what rate was offered in the posting?
>
> DD
>
it's a troll, kiddies,
yeesh, suckers.
| |
| docdwarf@panix.com 2005-03-11, 8:55 am |
| In article <fsidnSO_n9hsqazfRVn-jg@rogers.com>,
rpl <plinnane3REMOVE@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
>docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
>it's a troll, kiddies,
It might well have been, perhaps... but it seemed to contain as much valid
material as so many other postings.
DD
| |
|
| docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
> In article <fsidnSO_n9hsqazfRVn-jg@rogers.com>,
> rpl <plinnane3REMOVE@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> It most certainly was... but it seemed to contain as much validity as so
> many other postings and was treated as such.
>
> DD
>
yeah... I'm just mildly allergic to "hrspeak" is all.
rpl
| |
| docdwarf@panix.com 2005-03-11, 3:55 pm |
| In article <JaSdnapvGrHoTazfRVn-uw@rogers.com>,
rpl <plinnane3REMOVE@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
>docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
>yeah... I'm just mildly allergic to "hrspeak" is all.
First, my apologies for interrupting you mid-sentence earlier, it was just
now that I noticed the punctuation after 'kiddies' is a comma, not a
period. As for hrspeak... as a consultant/contractor/hired gun I'm not
subject to such things and it pleases me, mightily.
I'm reminded of... A Story! Years on back I took a contract in Kansas
City, MO; on my start-day the project leader took me and a few other
consultants down to Personnel to get our badges. We just kinda strolled
through the place and I noticed all the other folks filling out forms,
waiting in lines, holding little plastic jars outside of the bathroom...
.... and it came to me that I didn't have to deal with *any* of that crap,
that I just came in, did my job... probably enjoyed what I did more than
most of them and probably got paid more for it, too. Then I thought of
other folks in the organisation... at what level were they allowed to
bypass this ritual? I'm sure that my manager, and his manager as well,
both went through that set of rituals...
.... but the new CFO did not, I was sure, have to wait on line to hand in
his application ('No, you need to list *every* job you *ever* had *and*
your supervisor's name and number; go back, fill this out right and get to
the end of the line... NEXT?!?') and then head into the lavatory to fill
up a piss-cup...
.... so, I guess, in some ways my Corporate Experiences are closer to those
of Executives than anyone else. One can get spoiled by such treatment,
perhaps.
DD
| |
| Howard Brazee 2005-03-11, 3:55 pm |
|
On 11-Mar-2005, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
> I'm reminded of... A Story! Years on back I took a contract in Kansas
> City, MO; on my start-day the project leader took me and a few other
> consultants down to Personnel to get our badges. We just kinda strolled
> through the place and I noticed all the other folks filling out forms,
> waiting in lines, holding little plastic jars outside of the bathroom...
>
> ... and it came to me that I didn't have to deal with *any* of that crap,
I don't think that's what they were putting in the jars.
| |
| docdwarf@panix.com 2005-03-11, 3:55 pm |
| In article <d0smrf$gji$1@peabody.colorado.edu>,
Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> wrote:
>
>On 11-Mar-2005, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
>
>I don't think that's what they were putting in the jars.
Golly gee wizz... you don't?
DD
| |
|
| docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
> In article <d0smrf$gji$1@peabody.colorado.edu>,
> Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> Golly gee wizz... you don't?
Good thing they *didn't* give you a jar... ;)
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \ / ~ Live from Montgomery, AL! ~
~ / \/ o ~ ~
~ / /\ - | ~ daniel@thebelowdomain ~
~ _____ / \ | ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e ~
~ h---- r+++ z++++ ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
| docdwarf@panix.com 2005-03-12, 3:55 am |
| In article <b198$42321e02$45491f85$26179@KNOLOGY.NET>,
LX-i <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote:
>docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
>Good thing they *didn't* give you a jar... ;)
For all involved, a very good thing... I have Strong Objections to such
examinations.
DD
| |
| Robert Wagner 2005-03-12, 3:55 am |
| On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 22:36:49 -0600, "Joe" <NoSpam@SpamSucks.Org>
wrote:
>Rapid growth in volume and you want to move mission critical systems
>to client server? Why? Because it's newer technology? Boy are you in
>for problems. NO client server beats the I-O power of the mainframe.
The ten largest databases, by millions of rows, are:
AT&T 496,041 Daytona Sun
Nielsen Media Research 250,918 Sybase IQ Sun
France Telecom 156,787 Oracle HP
SBC 144,416 Teradata NCR
Kmart 133,079 Teradata NCR
FedEx Services 89,342 Teradata NCR
Anonymous 77,837 DB2 for Unix IBM
LG Card 74,702 Sybase IQ Sun
Health Insurance Review72,092 Sybase IQ HP
AT&T Wireless Services 64,534 Teradata NCR
I don't see any mainframe there.
>If you want fast, efficient, reliable, stable, secure processing, you want
>a z/OS server not some click and giggle unix or windows p.o.s..
The ten most active databases, by SQL statements per second, are:
Bureau of Customs & Border Protection 51,448 CA-Datacom
IBM
Anonymous 4,010 SQL Server
HP
Internet Auction Co., Ltd. 3,634 SQL Server
Unisys
Commander Communications Ltd 2,604 SQL Server
Dell
Scottish and Southern Energy plc 2,152 SQL Server
HP
2001OUTLET Co. Ltd 1,204 SQL Server
HP
Anonymous 1,200 SQL Server
HP
Caixa Econômica Federal 1,133 CA-IDMS
IBM
CheckFree Corporation 739 DB2 for z/OS
IBM
Land Registry 702 DB2 for z/OS
IBM
Number one should be eliminated as anomalous. It's tracking, what,
money-wasting government projects? Six out of nine heavy hitters run
on 'Billy Boy's click and giggle operating system.'
Isn't REALITY wonderful?
>You're going to need more personnel, more equipment, more time,
>more work and more money than if you had increased and upgraded
>mainframe capacity. Good Luck. Every single "take it off the mainframe"
>project I've ever observed had been a very expensive fiasco.
Every one I've worked on has been a success. Your resume will be a
winner with companies that want an expensive fiasco.
>And BTW... JAVA, C++, webshere and all the "new" stuff runs
>on the mainframe too you know. You can also serve web pages from CICS
>you know. Don't build mission critical systems on toy computers using hot new
>whiz bang technology that could turn out like 8-track tapes or the Betamax.
>You'll be sorry if you do. Tell that to your well-respected financial institution
>and I hope they don't shoot themselves in the head.
I'm disappointed by the absence of the well-respected financial
institutions I worked for on the above lists. Every time someone goes
to Yahoo Financial and asks for details, he's hitting my database. The
server isn't a mainframe; it's a toy computer running Sybase or SQL
Server against trillions of rows on "some click and giggle unix or
windows p.o.s."
One would think financial services companies who are in the business
of selling data could afford computer experts like you to set them
straight. I'm referring to Reuters, Bloomberg, Thomson and
Morningstar. All four of them got it wrong. They're hosting their
databases on Unix and Windows platforms rather than throwing money at
IBM. You should write to their CIOs warning them of the risk and
proposing a mainframe solution. A good laugh is always welcome.
| |
| Richard Steiner 2005-03-12, 3:55 am |
| Here in comp.lang.cobol,
Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> spake unto us, saying:
>On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 22:36:49 -0600, "Joe" <NoSpam@SpamSucks.Org>
>wrote:
>
>
>The ten largest databases, by millions of rows, are:
What does size have to do with anything?
The Library of Congress is a very large, but static, database. :-)
>I don't see any mainframe there.
I suspect that's because you aren't looking in the right places.
--
-Rich Steiner >>>---> http://www.visi.com/~rsteiner >>>---> Smyrna, GA USA
OS/2 + eCS + Linux + Win95 + DOS + PC/GEOS + Executor = PC Hobbyist Heaven!
WARNING: I've seen FIELDATA FORTRAN V and I know how to use it!
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
| |
|
| "Robert Wagner" <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote in message
news:9ac4311k4khvcsb5jtebka9oqm16jv259b@
4ax.com...
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 22:36:49 -0600, "Joe" <NoSpam@SpamSucks.Org>
> wrote:
>
>
> The ten largest databases, by millions of rows, are:
>
> AT&T 496,041 Daytona Sun
> Nielsen Media Research 250,918 Sybase IQ Sun
> France Telecom 156,787 Oracle HP
> SBC 144,416 Teradata NCR
> Kmart 133,079 Teradata NCR
> FedEx Services 89,342 Teradata NCR
> Anonymous 77,837 DB2 for Unix IBM
> LG Card 74,702 Sybase IQ Sun
> Health Insurance Review72,092 Sybase IQ HP
> AT&T Wireless Services 64,534 Teradata NCR
>
> I don't see any mainframe there.
I also don't see any comments from owners, or employees of said companies
with opinions of said products or relative performance.
I also don't know where your source is from (again) given that the list
changes when you consider whether you are looking at DSS, OLTP...or
Normalized Data Volume
Here _is_ a source for you with emphasis added
[url]http://www.ew .com/article2/0,1759,1410944,00.asp[/url]
"For OLTP systems database size spanning all OS environments, Land Registry
came in first with 18.3TB. EMC dominated the board by having its storage
products used by 7 of the 10 vendors on the list. ***IBM and the mainframe
also dominated the category***, taking the first 5 spots and 8 of a possible
ten. For OLTP Unix-based systems, in the second consecutive survey Oracle
ran the board as the DBMS vendor used by each respondent. Lastly, in the
Windows OLTP category HP servers were used by 7 of 10 organizations, and
Microsoft SQL Server was the DBMS choice for seven respondents. That's a
huge leap compared to the 2001 survey findings, when not enough respondents
met the minimum requirements to meet the size category"
Also one should consider the infrastructure and role of said systems. I
think that we're confusing mainframe and client-server with the realities of
what is in place. Last time I checked, Nielsen recently had job postings
for _mainframe_ positions. Only a portion of their business is Sybase on
Solaris........as it's a data warehouse and oltp type application _OF
COURSE_ it is client server......it just happens to be a freaking big
server.
Client/Server versus mainframe is predominantely a network architecture
statement. An unix cluster as found in an SP may be at a "nuts and bolts"
level client server-ish (MPP), but deep down its just another large logical
machine. Newer MPPs are a _share nothing_ architecture and are actually
clusters of SMPs communicating over a shared bus - still one logical
machine.
Maybe people are too near and dear to what actually is termed a "mainframe".
Today, IBM sells mainframes as "large servers".
I don't care one way or the other what people think - but I wish people
would get out of this mode where Mainframe = Big and Bad and Client Server =
Small and Crap....and vice versa.
A small unix box will never match a large "mainframe" - *duh*
A large unix cluster will surpass a small "mainframe" - *duh*
A mainframe can be a client or a server - *duh*
I think this is in essence disagreeing fundamentally with RW and the top
level posting dimwit.
This whole argument is again like the "COBOL sucks, Java is better" -
doesn't mean _either_ of them is actually close to being right. Often, Rexx
is better :-)
> The ten most active databases, by SQL statements per second, are:
>
> Bureau of Customs & Border Protection 51,448 CA-Datacom
> IBM
> Anonymous 4,010 SQL Server
> HP
> Internet Auction Co., Ltd. 3,634 SQL Server
> Unisys
> Commander Communications Ltd 2,604 SQL Server
> Dell
> Scottish and Southern Energy plc 2,152 SQL Server
> HP
> 2001OUTLET Co. Ltd 1,204 SQL Server
> HP
> Anonymous 1,200 SQL Server
> HP
> Caixa Econômica Federal 1,133 CA-IDMS
> IBM
> CheckFree Corporation 739 DB2 for z/OS
> IBM
> Land Registry 702 DB2 for z/OS
> IBM
>
> Number one should be eliminated as anomalous. It's tracking, what,
> money-wasting government projects? Six out of nine heavy hitters run
> on 'Billy Boy's click and giggle operating system.'
Why eliminate 1? If it's tracking money wasting government projects, it's
probably forever going to be number one...
> Isn't REALITY wonderful?
Debatable considering the least effective war the last 20 years has been the
war on drugs.
>
> Every one I've worked on has been a success. Your resume will be a
> winner with companies that want an expensive fiasco.
If it were my business to gambe, I'd have wager on the accuracy of your
statement.
Given the following source - it's old 4 years, but I think you've probably
undertaken at least as many of these jobs before this date as after:
http://www.accenture.com/xd/xd.asp?...%5Cover_big.xml
{begin
a.. Only 8 percent of large-scale applications projects (those that cost
between $6 million and $10 million) succeed.
a.. Among all IT development projects, only 16 percent occur within
acceptable constraints of cost, time and quality.
a.. Cost overruns of anywhere from 100 percent to 200 percent are common in
software projects.
a.. The price tag for annual cost overruns for IT projects has been
estimated at $59 billion in the United States alone. Another study puts the
figure at $100 billion.
a.. IT workers spend more than 34 percent of their time just fixing software
bugs.
end}
Assuming that "take it off the mainframe" projects are large scale (hence on
a mainframe to begin with), you have successfully managed to avoid 92 out of
every 100 projects. I then will suggest that it would not seem rational or
feasible to suggest that your role on each of these projects was _so_ great
that you could have _saved_ the other 92 % with your $55/hr expertise.
Perhaps your views - which are imho, not always absurd as others make out -
would be better served with a little more humility and a little less
exaggeration.
>
> I'm disappointed by the absence of the well-respected financial
> institutions I worked for on the above lists. Every time someone goes
> to Yahoo Financial and asks for details, he's hitting my database. The
So you're the owner of Yahoo now....?
> server isn't a mainframe; it's a toy computer running Sybase or SQL
> Server against trillions of rows on "some click and giggle unix or
> windows p.o.s."
I've yet to see any toy computer with enough disk space for trillions of
rows of anything. I went to the toy store and the only toy computers I
found were made by leapfrog and were used to educate children...maybe I went
to the wrong section.
> One would think financial services companies who are in the business
> of selling data could afford computer experts like you to set them
> straight. I'm referring to Reuters, Bloomberg, Thomson and
> Morningstar. All four of them got it wrong. They're hosting their
> databases on Unix and Windows platforms rather than throwing money at
> IBM. You should write to their CIOs warning them of the risk and
> proposing a mainframe solution. A good laugh is always welcome.
Errr....IBM was on your lists provided as evidence...lets see....25% of the
time by my count....and that's _without_ offering a DBMS design purely for
DSS which is your typical large DBMS and accounts for a large portion of
your _evidence_.
JCE
| |
| William M. Klein 2005-03-12, 3:55 am |
| Robetrt, (why am I suirprised),
If you look further into the information at:
http://www.wintercorp.com/VLDB/2003...l%20Winners.pdf
The first list that you have included is for
"Number of Rows - DSS - All" (and personally, I don't know what "DSS"
stands for)
but did you look further at the top 10 for
"Database Size - OLTP - All"
In that list 8 of 10 are on "IBM" - and appear (to me) to be IBM mainframes.
(and knowing what OLTP probably stands for, I DO consider this list much more
relevant)
or "Number of Rows - OLTP - All"
or "Peak Workload - OLTP - All"
and of course, see:
http://www.wintercorp.com/VLDB/2005...TenProgram.html
for how databases get INTO this survey.
Would you care to change your opinion now????
--
Bill Klein
wmklein <at> ix.netcom.com
"Robert Wagner" <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote in message
news:9ac4311k4khvcsb5jtebka9oqm16jv259b@
4ax.com...
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 22:36:49 -0600, "Joe" <NoSpam@SpamSucks.Org>
> wrote:
>
>
> The ten largest databases, by millions of rows, are:
>
> AT&T 496,041 Daytona Sun
> Nielsen Media Research 250,918 Sybase IQ Sun
> France Telecom 156,787 Oracle HP
> SBC 144,416 Teradata NCR
> Kmart 133,079 Teradata NCR
> FedEx Services 89,342 Teradata NCR
> Anonymous 77,837 DB2 for Unix IBM
> LG Card 74,702 Sybase IQ Sun
> Health Insurance Review72,092 Sybase IQ HP
> AT&T Wireless Services 64,534 Teradata NCR
>
> I don't see any mainframe there.
>
>
> The ten most active databases, by SQL statements per second, are:
>
> Bureau of Customs & Border Protection 51,448 CA-Datacom
> IBM
> Anonymous 4,010 SQL Server
> HP
> Internet Auction Co., Ltd. 3,634 SQL Server
> Unisys
> Commander Communications Ltd 2,604 SQL Server
> Dell
> Scottish and Southern Energy plc 2,152 SQL Server
> HP
> 2001OUTLET Co. Ltd 1,204 SQL Server
> HP
> Anonymous 1,200 SQL Server
> HP
> Caixa Econômica Federal 1,133 CA-IDMS
> IBM
> CheckFree Corporation 739 DB2 for z/OS
> IBM
> Land Registry 702 DB2 for z/OS
> IBM
>
> Number one should be eliminated as anomalous. It's tracking, what,
> money-wasting government projects? Six out of nine heavy hitters run
> on 'Billy Boy's click and giggle operating system.'
>
> Isn't REALITY wonderful?
>
>
> Every one I've worked on has been a success. Your resume will be a
> winner with companies that want an expensive fiasco.
>
>
> I'm disappointed by the absence of the well-respected financial
> institutions I worked for on the above lists. Every time someone goes
> to Yahoo Financial and asks for details, he's hitting my database. The
> server isn't a mainframe; it's a toy computer running Sybase or SQL
> Server against trillions of rows on "some click and giggle unix or
> windows p.o.s."
>
> One would think financial services companies who are in the business
> of selling data could afford computer experts like you to set them
> straight. I'm referring to Reuters, Bloomberg, Thomson and
> Morningstar. All four of them got it wrong. They're hosting their
> databases on Unix and Windows platforms rather than throwing money at
> IBM. You should write to their CIOs warning them of the risk and
> proposing a mainframe solution. A good laugh is always welcome.
>
| |
| Robert Wagner 2005-03-12, 3:55 pm |
| On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 07:04:12 GMT, "William M. Klein"
<wmklein@nospam.netcom.com> wrote:
>Robetrt, (why am I suirprised),
>
> If you look further into the information at:
>
>http://www.wintercorp.com/VLDB/2003...l%20Winners.pdf
>
>The first list that you have included is for
> "Number of Rows - DSS - All" (and personally, I don't know what "DSS"
>stands for)
>
>but did you look further at the top 10 for
> "Database Size - OLTP - All"
>
>In that list 8 of 10 are on "IBM" - and appear (to me) to be IBM mainframes.
>
>(and knowing what OLTP probably stands for, I DO consider this list much more
>relevant)
DSS stands for Decision Support System, commonly known as Data
Warehouse. For completeness, OLTP stands for On-Line Transaction
Processing. They share the same underlying database technology. The
only difference is access tools. DSS uses Data Mining tools such as Ab
Initio designed for high volume; OLTP uses application programs
issuing traditional SQL.
I chose DSS over OLTP because the numbers are bigger. The point here
was reporting the biggest and most active.
>and of course, see:
>
> http://www.wintercorp.com/VLDB/2005...TenProgram.html
>
>for how databases get INTO this survey.
They're self-nominated. That would give the advantage to mainframes,
whose proponents like to say 'mine is bigger'. I picture them slipping
to the men's room with six-inch rulers. :)
>Would you care to change your opinion now????
Not until a mainframer reports bigger to Winter Corp.
There are many big databases that aren't included in the Winter Corp.
report. For instance, Social Security has hundreds of millions of
account holders, each with a few hundred quarterly earnings reports.
Big deal. Ten billion rows wouldn't make the top ten on Winter.
The Winter reports reflect inefficient design more than productive use
of a database.
| |
| docdwarf@panix.com 2005-03-12, 3:55 pm |
| In article <f5n531d53pdv5bb4cfvju8v3052t5bbktp@4ax.com>,
Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 07:04:12 GMT, "William M. Klein"
><wmklein@nospam.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>
>DSS stands for Decision Support System, commonly known as Data
>Warehouse. For completeness, OLTP stands for On-Line Transaction
>Processing. They share the same underlying database technology. The
>only difference is access tools. DSS uses Data Mining tools such as Ab
>Initio designed for high volume; OLTP uses application programs
>issuing traditional SQL.
Not *quite*, Mr Wagner. As I was taught rather recently (not
e'er-so-long ago) the difference between DSS and OLTP designs have to do
with the kind of queries that are run agains them and the kind of indices
designed to support them.
DSS systems are to be designed for data which do not change much,
typically daily/monthly batch loads. They are to be designed with
multiple keys for easy access and a decrease in the number of full table
scans needed; multiple keys are easy to deal with because the overhead of
key-update is not encountered during queries... which are, of course,
read-only.
OLTP, on the other hand, deals more in individual records/rows, order
entry being the classic example. The overhead encountered during
key/index insertion/update is *very* important because such updates take
time and folks waiting for an online transaction do not like to wait.
>
>I chose DSS over OLTP because the numbers are bigger. The point here
>was reporting the biggest and most active.
You seem to have choses what supported your argument, Mr Wagner, and
ignored the fact that a read-only database (DSS) will have - or 'should
have' - an entirely different design and function than an OLTP one.
DD
| |
| Robert Wagner 2005-03-12, 3:55 pm |
| On 12 Mar 2005 09:01:21 -0500, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>In article <f5n531d53pdv5bb4cfvju8v3052t5bbktp@4ax.com>,
>Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>
>Not *quite*, Mr Wagner. As I was taught rather recently (not
>e'er-so-long ago) the difference between DSS and OLTP designs have to do
>with the kind of queries that are run against them and the kind of indices
>designed to support them.
>
>DSS systems are to be designed for data which do not change much,
>typically daily/monthly batch loads. They are to be designed with
>multiple keys for easy access and a decrease in the number of full table
>scans needed; multiple keys are easy to deal with because the overhead of
>key-update is not encountered during queries... which are, of course,
>read-only.
>
>OLTP, on the other hand, deals more in individual records/rows, order
>entry being the classic example. The overhead encountered during
>key/index insertion/update is *very* important because such updates take
>time and folks waiting for an online transaction do not like to wait.
All true, and well said. But it doesn't change the fact that DSS
databases have the largest size and activity.
>
>You seem to have chosen what supported your argument, Mr Wagner, and
>ignored the fact that a read-only database (DSS) will have - or 'should
>have' - an entirely different design and function than an OLTP one.
One can alter access strategy without changing design. On Oracle, for
instance, tweaking the parameters optimizer_index_caching and
optimizer_index_cost_adj can convince it to favor or disfavor full
table scans. FWIW, out-of-the-box default values are far from optimal,
especially for OLTP, yet many shops run with them.
| |
| Richard 2005-03-12, 8:55 pm |
| What the survey doesn't indicate is the number of machines and CPUs
involved. You can get high numbers from any system if you throw enough
hardware at it. Those SQL Server sites may be running a farm of dozens
or hundreds of machines, each doing low numbers of transactions per
second. The efficiency of the system then depnds on how well the load
is distributed.
This is certainly not proof that 'micros' are better than mainframes,
or are even cost effective, let alone have a better TCO.
| |
|
| >A well-respected financial institution in Indianapolis has created a
> new opportunity for a Mainframe Architect to analyze their existing
> Mainframe environment and make recommendations as to how to migrate to
> newer technology (i.e: Client Server). Their mission critical systems
> are experiencing rapid growth in processing volume, and need a highly
> technical architect who can .... etc. etc.
Rapid growth in volume and you want to move mission critical systems
to client server? Why? Because it's newer technology? Boy are you in
for problems. NO client server beats the I-O power of the mainframe.
If you want fast, efficient, reliable, stable, secure processing, you want
a z/OS server not some click and giggle unix or windows p.o.s..
I'm working on a large mainframe based DB2 system that interfaces
with an ORACLE unix system. We can completely restore the entire
DB2 system to a test environment in a few hours. It takes 3 full days
of intense effort by programmers and DBA's to restore the ORACLE
system with a quarter of the volume. But ooooo it's ORACLE, ooooo
it's client server, oooooo it's better, it's , management loves the
pretty pictures. It's slow as a turtle and takes forever to get anything done.
You're going to need more personnel, more equipment, more time,
more work and more money than if you had increased and upgraded
mainframe capacity. Good Luck. Every single "take it off the mainframe"
project I've ever observed had been a very expensive fiasco.
And BTW... JAVA, C++, webshere and all the "new" stuff runs
on the mainframe too you know. You can also serve web pages from CICS
you know. Don't build mission critical systems on toy computers using hot new
whiz bang technology that could turn out like 8-track tapes or the Betamax.
You'll be sorry if you do. Tell that to your well-respected financial institution
and I hope they don't shoot themselves in the head.
| |
| docdwarf@panix.com 2005-03-13, 3:55 am |
| In article <5hb631lkqv7esgsctl843k0dc6dlm8kls5@4ax.com>,
Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>On 12 Mar 2005 09:01:21 -0500, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
>
>All true, and well said. But it doesn't change the fact that DSS
>databases have the largest size and activity.
Thanks much for your evaluation, Mr Wagner... now can you please stop
ignoring the fact that those doing the ranking realise that DSS and OLTP
are such different categories of system that they each deserve a different
category of ranking?
DD
| |
|
| docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
> In article <2al1315b5dnk6k2a39gnaou7jmujsglg0q@4ax.com>,
> Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
>
>
> Mr Wagner... do you happen to recall what rate was offered in the posting?
>
> DD
>
it's a troll, kiddies,
yeesh, suckers.
| |
| Robert Wagner 2005-03-13, 3:55 am |
| On 11 Mar 2005 12:42:52 -0500, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>I'm reminded of... A Story! Years on back I took a contract in Kansas
>City, MO; on my start-day the project leader took me and a few other
>consultants down to Personnel to get our badges. We just kinda strolled
>through the place and I noticed all the other folks filling out forms,
>waiting in lines, holding little plastic jars outside of the bathroom...
>
>... and it came to me that I didn't have to deal with *any* of that crap,
>that I just came in, did my job... probably enjoyed what I did more than
>most of them and probably got paid more for it, too. Then I thought of
>other folks in the organisation... at what level were they allowed to
>bypass this ritual? I'm sure that my manager, and his manager as well,
>both went through that set of rituals...
Contractors are not always exempt. I've provided a urine sample twice
and been fingerprinted once. That's three out of eight gigs.
Higher pay is another fallacy. Contractors are paid more when they're
working, but when you factor in three to six months down time between
gigs (collecting unemployment benefits), their annual income comes out
about the same as employees. After subtracting moving expenses and
temporary lodging and adding back tax savings due to per diem, it's
still a break-even. VERY IMPORTANT: contractors who don't play the per
diem tax game (most of them) are net losers.
Whether to be a contractor is a lifestyle choice, not a financial
windfall. If you and YOUR DOMESTIC PARTNER want to live in a different
city every year, it's a good choice. If you're rooted to one city by a
house and kids in school, contracting is a poor choice. You'll wind up
working several hundred miles from home and commuting on wends.
I've seen many contractors doing it. I couldn't live that way.
On the other hand, if you hate commuting traffic as much as I do, a
contractor can usually live within walking distance of the office. An
employee will typically spend one to two hours in traffic, each way.
I've always gone home for a gourmet lunch. As I said, it's a lifestyle
choice.
Some of the places where I lived were better than expected, some were
worse. All were winners, one way or another. The people of Montgomery
AL were an unexpected delight. Living on Lark Streen in Albany NY was
great fun -- 24/7 street theater. Jacksonville FL was nothing special
but surrounding areas were spectacular. A highlight was taking a 40
foot sailboat from Fernandina Beach around Cumberland Island to St
Mary's GA. My gig on Long Island was the worst. New Yorkers are all
assholes (but the women are sexy). Suburbs in Morris County NJ were a
lot of fun.
| |
| docdwarf@panix.com 2005-03-13, 3:55 am |
| In article <ei4731hfc2rd0ihm5ogfck9dvsl468d8v6@4ax.com>,
Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>On 11 Mar 2005 12:42:52 -0500, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
>
>
>Contractors are not always exempt.
Nothing is always, Mr Wagner, including this statement... and 'always' was
neither stated nor intended in the posting to which you responded.
>I've provided a urine sample twice
>and been fingerprinted once. That's three out of eight gigs.
>
>Higher pay is another fallacy. Contractors are paid more when they're
>working, but when you factor in three to six months down time between
>gigs (collecting unemployment benefits), their annual income comes out
>about the same as employees.
I usually spend less than three months between gigs, Mr Wagner.
>After subtracting moving expenses and
>temporary lodging and adding back tax savings due to per diem, it's
>still a break-even.
I haven't changed address in the past eight years, Mr Wagner... no, wait,
that's not true... I moved across the street from an apartment to a condo
five years back after living in the apartment for three years.
>VERY IMPORTANT: contractors who don't play the per
>diem tax game (most of them) are net losers.
>
>Whether to be a contractor is a lifestyle choice, not a financial
>windfall. If you and YOUR DOMESTIC PARTNER want to live in a different
>city every year, it's a good choice.
I've lived in the same city for the past eight years, Mr Wagner... once
again, it seems our experiences are different.
DD
| |
| Robert Wagner 2005-03-13, 8:55 am |
| On 12 Mar 2005 21:57:51 -0500, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>I haven't changed address in the past eight years, Mr Wagner... no, wait,
>that's not true... I moved across the street from an apartment to a condo
>five years back after living in the apartment for three years.
>
>
>I've lived in the same city for the past eight years, Mr Wagner... once
>again, it seems our experiences are different.
If you live in a place longer than 364 days, Uncle Sam says you've
constructively moved your tax home. You can't receive per diem in that
place. Uncle Sam encourages us to be transients. Absent the transient
tax break, are you still making more than employees?
Thinking back to Jacksonville FL, semi-wly trips to Okefenokee come
to mind. What a magical place. It was like turning the clock back a
million years. While paddling a canoe, I expected to see dinosaurs.
Their brothers, alligators, swam under the boat. Sandhill cranes and
other tropical birds such as ibis were in evidence in thousands if not
millions. At Merrit Island, near Cape Canaveral, I followed a flight
of roseatte spoonbills for miles, drivng on dirt roads.
You can't get those experiences in the suburbs of Washington DC.
| |
| docdwarf@panix.com 2005-03-13, 8:55 am |
| In article <re38311i2cfggicc5qoa90r6opkbtt6gk0@4ax.com>,
Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>On 12 Mar 2005 21:57:51 -0500, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
[snip]
>
>If you live in a place longer than 364 days, Uncle Sam says you've
>constructively moved your tax home. You can't receive per diem in that
>place. Uncle Sam encourages us to be transients. Absent the transient
>tax break, are you still making more than employees?
That's what my accountant tells me, Mr Wagner... but what does *she* know,
anyhow?
>
>Thinking back to Jacksonville FL, semi-wly trips to Okefenokee come
>to mind. What a magical place. It was like turning the clock back a
>million years. While paddling a canoe, I expected to see dinosaurs.
>Their brothers, alligators, swam under the boat. Sandhill cranes and
>other tropical birds such as ibis were in evidence in thousands if not
>millions. At Merrit Island, near Cape Canaveral, I followed a flight
>of roseatte spoonbills for miles, drivng on dirt roads.
>
>You can't get those experiences in the suburbs of Washington DC.
I didn't move to the suburbs expecting such, Mr Wagner... good thing,
that.
DD
| |
| William M. Klein 2005-03-13, 8:55 pm |
| So now the question is ...
Let's go back to the original post in this thread,
"A well-respected financial institution in Indianapolis has created a
new opportunity for a Mainframe Architect to analyze their existing
Mainframe environment and make recommendations as to how to migrate to
newer technology (i.e: Client Server). Their mission critical systems
are experiencing rapid growth in processing volume, and need a highly
technical architect who can ensure that their system infrastructure
will continue to support increasing business demands. This position
requires hands-on experience designing and configuring large, complex
computer systems with high-performance, high-availability, and load
balancing properties."
Now the question is WHICH type of "system" DSS or OLTP does one think provides
the best "model" for information related to this environment?
I don't think it is "obvious" - and if I were actually interested in the job (or
making a recommendation to that site), then I would certainly want to find out
HOW they are using their database today.
However, given the fact that they are a CICS/DB2 shop today, I would GUESS (and
could easily be wrong) that the statistics from the quoted paper on OLTP
environments would PROBABLY be a better guide than those for DSS.
Given this, then a decision to STAY on the (IBM) mainframe would likely keep
them with the "largest" systems currently handling similar systems.
--
Bill Klein
wmklein <at> ix.netcom.com
"Robert Wagner" <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote in message
news:f5n531d53pdv5bb4cfvju8v3052t5bbktp@
4ax.com...
> On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 07:04:12 GMT, "William M. Klein"
> <wmklein@nospam.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>
> DSS stands for Decision Support System, commonly known as Data
> Warehouse. For completeness, OLTP stands for On-Line Transaction
> Processing. They share the same underlying database technology. The
> only difference is access tools. DSS uses Data Mining tools such as Ab
> Initio designed for high volume; OLTP uses application programs
> issuing traditional SQL.
>
> I chose DSS over OLTP because the numbers are bigger. The point here
> was reporting the biggest and most active.
>
>
> They're self-nominated. That would give the advantage to mainframes,
> whose proponents like to say 'mine is bigger'. I picture them slipping
> to the men's room with six-inch rulers. :)
>
>
> Not until a mainframer reports bigger to Winter Corp.
>
> There are many big databases that aren't included in the Winter Corp.
> report. For instance, Social Security has hundreds of millions of
> account holders, each with a few hundred quarterly earnings reports.
> Big deal. Ten billion rows wouldn't make the top ten on Winter.
>
> The Winter reports reflect inefficient design more than productive use
> of a database.
>
| |
|
|
| Robert Wagner 2005-03-14, 3:55 am |
| On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 03:10:37 GMT, "Eileen" <yukonmama@aol.com> wrote:
>The last thing is I've ducked the last 2 layoffs there too.
When I worked at Merrill Lynch, they only reason they had contractors
was to be sacrificial goats during layoffs. Once a year the word would
come down to cut payroll 10%. It didn't matter whether the company had
done well or poorly. During the last quarter I was there, they
reported an unusually large net profit twenty times above normal.
Employees asked "If we don't get a raise now, when will we?" None of
that mattered, management said to cut 10%.
FWIW, the word 'decimated' doesn't mean totally destroyed, it means
reduced by 10%. In Roman days, when a legion screwed up it was
punished by going down the line and killing every tenth soldier.
That's where 'decimated' comes from.
>And before I get the consulting company is making big bucks off you' line
>I'll reiterate that I'm in a position to know the bill rates and profit
>margins - and they ain't.
I negotiated a contract at $50/hr. I even went there for an in-person
interview (which I don't usually do). They loved me. The next w my
contracting company advertised the same job on DICE saying "cannot pay
more than $35/hr". When I called and complained, they blamed it on a
'computer error'. They also tried to talk me down by saying they were
only making $10/hr.
After two ws on the job, someone in the mailroom screwed up and
sent their invoice to me rather than Accounts Payable. I got to see
the bill rate, which was $120/hr! Hey, I'm good but I didn't know I
was THAT good.
The contracting company had 58% profit and that wasn't good enough.
They wanted 71%. That's piggish. They were abusing the system, IMO.
| |
| James J. Gavan 2005-03-14, 3:55 am |
| Robert Wagner wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 03:10:37 GMT, "Eileen" <yukonmama@aol.com> wrote:
>
> FWIW, the word 'decimated' doesn't mean totally destroyed, it means
> reduced by 10%. In Roman days, when a legion screwed up it was
> punished by going down the line and killing every tenth soldier.
> That's where 'decimated' comes from.
Nice bit of trivia Robert. That's what fascinates me about history.
Guess the tenth guy is called Decimus and has an "X" on his forehead ?
>
> I negotiated a contract at $50/hr. I even went there for an in-person
> interview (which I don't usually do). They loved me. ......
(did you tell them about us.......?)
| |
| docdwarf@panix.com 2005-03-14, 8:55 am |
| In article <ip1a31ta24ghj8oqfokmc9rkpctnu3tbur@4ax.com>,
Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
[snip]
>Once a year the word would
>come down to cut payroll 10%. It didn't matter whether the company had
>done well or poorly. During the last quarter I was there, they
>reported an unusually large net profit twenty times above normal.
>Employees asked "If we don't get a raise now, when will we?" None of
>that mattered, management said to cut 10%.
One of the Rules of Business, Mr Wagner... any amount coming in is Not
Enough, any amount being paid out is Too Much. An inability to look at
'my' staff and say 'No matter what you're doing we want more More MORE!'
is yet another reason I've avoided management.
[snip]
>I negotiated a contract at $50/hr. I even went there for an in-person
>interview (which I don't usually do). They loved me. The next w my
>contracting company advertised the same job on DICE saying "cannot pay
>more than $35/hr". When I called and complained, they blamed it on a
>'computer error'. They also tried to talk me down by saying they were
>only making $10/hr.
I don't know how many times I've done an interview and been told by a pimp
'Well, they love you... but even though you said you needed $n/hr they can
only pay $n-m.'
'They knew that before I went in? Sorry, I can't work with people like
that, tell them I hope they're very happy with whomever they get because
it isn't going to be me.'
'What?'
'Tell them I'm not taking the gig.'
'But... but they love you!'
'I don't work for love, I work for cash.'
'Well... all right, maybe we can get $n/hr out of them.'
'Maybe you can... but you can do that for someone else, my rate for the
job's now $n+m.'
'What? You said going in that you only needed $n!'
'That's before I learned what kind of people they are, calling me in even
though they had no intention of paying my rate. Now that I've learned how
they do business I need to protect myself and the rate goes up.'
>
>After two ws on the job, someone in the mailroom screwed up and
>sent their invoice to me rather than Accounts Payable. I got to see
>the bill rate, which was $120/hr! Hey, I'm good but I didn't know I
>was THAT good.
You may be good at programming, Mr Wagner... but the pimp seems to have
been better at negotiating a rate.
DD
| |
| Robert Wagner 2005-03-14, 8:55 am |
| On 14 Mar 2005 05:24:07 -0500, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>I don't know how many times I've done an interview and been told by a pimp
>'Well, they love you... but even though you said you needed $n/hr they can
>only pay $n-m.'
They don't determine my rate; you do.
Well they set the bill rate.
Since you brought it up, tell me the bill rate and I'll work for 70%
of that.
(Changes the subject. I get the rate originally agreed to.)
| |
| Howard Brazee 2005-03-14, 3:55 pm |
|
On 12-Mar-2005, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
> On the other hand, if you hate commuting traffic as much as I do, a
> contractor can usually live within walking distance of the office. An
> employee will typically spend one to two hours in traffic, each way.
> I've always gone home for a gourmet lunch. As I said, it's a lifestyle
> choice.
I've found the opposite. A contractor has less choice about the relationship
between his home and his work than an employee. I've been more willing to
contract to jobs on the other side of the city than I have been willing to hire
on permanently. Although I did take on a contract that turned into my last job
- and then moved closer.
| |
| Howard Brazee 2005-03-14, 3:55 pm |
|
On 13-Mar-2005, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
> FWIW, the word 'decimated' doesn't mean totally destroyed, it means
> reduced by 10%. In Roman days, when a legion screwed up it was
> punished by going down the line and killing every tenth soldier.
> That's where 'decimated' comes from.
I've often wondered how the meaning of that word changed. I'm surprised so
many dictionaries list the original meaning 1st, as it doesn't seem to me to be
its main meaning anymore.
| |
| Howard Brazee 2005-03-14, 3:55 pm |
|
On 13-Mar-2005, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
> The contracting company had 58% profit and that wasn't good enough.
> They wanted 71%. That's piggish. They were abusing the system, IMO.
What is the correct amount that they should charge their customers, and what is
the correct rate that they should charge you? How do we determine where the
line is between doing their job for their stockholders and being piggish?
| |
| Howard Brazee 2005-03-14, 3:55 pm |
|
On 12-Mar-2005, "William M. Klein" <wmklein@nospam.netcom.com> wrote:
> In that list 8 of 10 are on "IBM" - and appear (to me) to be IBM mainframes.
The difference between the IBM "mainframe" in our computer room and the Sun is
one has blue trim and the other has Red trim.
| |
| Robert Wagner 2005-03-15, 3:55 am |
| On 14 Mar 2005 07:36:20 -0500, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>In article <kgua31517ls7ia4tbk53u329uj7t2lg7bu@4ax.com>,
>Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>
>Not bad... except for that 'tell me' part, since pimps have shown to me
>that they can tell a variety of things. Perhaps 'All right... I'll go
>on-board for a month and then I'd like to see a copy of the invoice you
>send them; if I'm getting 70% of what you're charging there'll be no
>difficulties.'
>
>Granted that they might send me a fake invoice... but give me a month on
>the job and (if past experience is any guide) I'll be in a position to ask
>my project lead to compare it to the one the client has received and
>notify me of discrepancies. Granted that the pimp can collude with the
>client ('Hey, if he asks about an invoice show him *this* one')... but if
>everyone's 'against me' then I deal with that if it arises.
What if you learn the true rate, work for a year, then sue for the
difference .. retroactively? The pimp would be out thousands. If
you're W2, as you must be for max per diem, the pimp would be in
trouble with the Wage & Hour people. Pimps are averse to such
unpleasantries.
The best course, if you have the talent, is to find your own gigs.
Then call two or three Approved Vendors with an offer of 10%. I've
never done that, but have worked with people who do. They stay in one
industry, often pharma or financial or telco, and know each other from
prior projects. Being tapped into the Hidden Job Market, they have
first dibs on unadvertised gigs. They often work on two or three
projects simultaneously (with honest billing for hours worked on
each). Their retirement funds are very healthy.
| |
| Robert Wagner 2005-03-15, 3:55 am |
| On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:03:59 GMT, "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net>
wrote:
>On 13-Mar-2005, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>
>
>What is the correct amount that they should charge their customers, and what is
>the correct rate that they should charge you? How do we determine where the
>line is between doing their job for their stockholders and being piggish?
Market forces -- supply and demand -- determine the balance between
fear and greed. Y2K destabilized the process by introducing
under-equipped suppliers from third-world countries, notably India and
Russia.
Free Market advocates defend capitalism 'to the death' -- I used to be
an options and futures trader -- but sensibly back off when opponents
are unevenly matched. It's just no fun when one side is incompetent or
being exploited.
The correct income for an Indian woman working out of her New Jersey
home is 30%; for a Big Five contacting company such as Accenture, EDS
or Deloitte Touche, it's 50%. Big Five are the only ones that have
public stockholders.
| |
| Robert Wagner 2005-03-15, 3:55 am |
| On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:54:55 GMT, "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net>
wrote:
>On 12-Mar-2005, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>
>
>I've found the opposite. A contractor has less choice about the relationship
>between his home and his work than an employee. I've been more willing to
>contract to jobs on the other side of the city than I have been willing to hire
>on permanently. Although I did take on a contract that turned into my last job
>- and then moved closer.
I go to Yahoo Yellow Pages, Change Location to the office address, and
ask for apartments. It shows them sorted by distance. After being on
the job a w or two, I visit them and pick one.
Caution: 'Apartment Finder' Web sites are a poor way to find an
apartment. They list the most exploitive and expensive ones. I have
nothing against expensive, the ones I pick usually are, but they're
not exploitive.
In urban areas, the closest isn't always the best. Walking half a mile
through a classy downtown area can be better than across the street.
| |
| docdwarf@panix.com 2005-03-15, 3:55 am |
| In article <1l3c31psf0brsfhpo1rtbfo7ik48bq225b@4ax.com>,
Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>On 14 Mar 2005 07:36:20 -0500, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
>
>What if you learn the true rate, work for a year, then sue for the
>difference .. retroactively?
I've never seen a contract that specifies pay-rate as a percentage of
bill-rate; usually they specify hourly rates only.
>The pimp would be out thousands. If
>you're W2, as you must be for max per diem, the pimp would be in
>trouble with the Wage & Hour people. Pimps are averse to such
>unpleasantries.
I am averse to lawsuits... in the New York City with which I am familiar
one can indicate a complete disdain for someone by saying 'so sue me.'
>
>The best course, if you have the talent, is to find your own gigs.
As stated long ago... that is a talent I don't have. Pimps do what they
do, I do what I do and we all try to profit.
DD
| |
| Howard Brazee 2005-03-15, 3:55 pm |
|
On 14-Mar-2005, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
> What if you learn the true rate, work for a year, then sue for the
> difference .. retroactively? The pimp would be out thousands. If
> you're W2, as you must be for max per diem, the pimp would be in
> trouble with the Wage & Hour people. Pimps are averse to such
> unpleasantries.
What kind of contract do you have with your pimp? I've had hourly rates and
salaries, but never any that were defined as a percentage of what the pimp gets.
Same thing happened when I was a regular employee. I never looked up how
much money my employer made and sued if it made more than I thought.
| |
| Howard Brazee 2005-03-15, 3:55 pm |
|
On 14-Mar-2005, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
> As stated long ago... that is a talent I don't have. Pimps do what they
> do, I do what I do and we all try to profit.
Occasionally I have worked with contractors who eschewed pimps and took home the
extra money. I wasn't much tempted to go their route, as I would have to be
my own pimp.
| |
| Howard Brazee 2005-03-15, 3:55 pm |
|
On 14-Mar-2005, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>
> Market forces -- supply and demand -- determine the balance between
> fear and greed. Y2K destabilized the process by introducing
> under-equipped suppliers from third-world countries, notably India and
> Russia.
Market forces say whatever you and your employer agree to is the correct amount.
> Free Market advocates defend capitalism 'to the death' -- I used to be
> an options and futures trader -- but sensibly back off when opponents
> are unevenly matched. It's just no fun when one side is incompetent or
> being exploited.
And you were incompetent, exploited, or exploiter?
> The correct income for an Indian woman working out of her New Jersey
> home is 30%; for a Big Five contacting company such as Accenture, EDS
> or Deloitte Touche, it's 50%. Big Five are the only ones that have
> public stockholders.
How were these figures derived? If the woman's pimp got only 25% would that
have meant that she was being piggish?
| |
|
|
| docdwarf@panix.com 2005-03-15, 3:55 pm |
| In article <d16quk$cd6$1@peabody.colorado.edu>,
Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> wrote:
>
>On 14-Mar-2005, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
>
>Occasionally I have worked with contractors who eschewed pimps and took home the
>extra money. I wasn't much tempted to go their route, as I would have to be
>my own pimp.
Pimps are, in part, salesfolk... and I cannot sell something to save my
life; my approach is 'This is obviously a superior product and if you
cannot see that then both of us are wasting our time.'
Even better... a pimp can look at a corner-office idiot and say, with a
straight face and complete sincerity, 'Oh, I see... so there's a
difficulty caused by a combination of your own incompetence and fear,
compounded by a decade-and-change of 'we've always done it *this* way'...
sure, I've got a guy who, on his own and with no support from you and
overt antagonism from your subordinates, can make everything All Right in
three months.'
I can't do that... everyone is limited in some way, I guess.
DD
| |
| Donald Tees 2005-03-15, 3:55 pm |
| Howard Brazee wrote:
> On 14-Mar-2005, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> I've been a contractor for years (I'm not now), and have worked with lots of
> contractors. But we all live at home and commuted more. Commuting an extra
> hour per day is not good for family life, but certainly beats renting an
> apartment close to work, paying for two homes, and only seeing the family on
> wends. The occasional remote ws were bad enough.
About 4-5 years back, I dropped my rate to 1/3, and decided to never
take another job where I had to leave home. If they outsource to India,
then they can outsource to my high speed line as well. I now get
dressed and have breakfast during my morning coffee break, and spend
zero hours/dollars on commuting/traveling to and from work. I wish the
technology had been there 20 years ago. I'd never go back, and end up
with more money in my pocket.
Donald
| |
|
| docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
> Pimps are, in part, salesfolk... and I cannot sell something to save my
> life; my approach is 'This is obviously a superior product and if you
> cannot see that then both of us are wasting our time.'
We share something in common... :) The year I got out of high school,
I got into Vector Marketing Corporation, AKA Cutco knives. Yes, they
are the best knives ever - I'm still using the ones that came in my
display set. But, I couldn't sell a single knife!
The "Homemaker Plus 8" was the set of all the knives, and included 8
steak knives. Selling price? $640. I was the only person in my office
that didn't sell one the entire time. The whole summer, the only knife
I sold was a $40 paring knife, which netted me $16, if memory serves.
Take into account the $178 demo set I purchased when we started, and all
the gas I spent driving around (and even going to a sales conference), I
did not do well.
I didn't do much better with Amway - although, buying stuff I needed
anyway helped it not be a complete wash. I've been inactive for years,
though.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \ / ~ Live from Montgomery, AL! ~
~ / \/ o ~ ~
~ / /\ - | ~ daniel@thebelowdomain ~
~ _____ / \ | ~ http://www.djs-consulting.com ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e ~
~ h---- r+++ z++++ ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| |
| Donald Tees 2005-03-16, 3:55 am |
| Robert Wagner wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:25:06 -0500, Donald Tees
> <donald_tees@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> When I worked at home, for two years, I became compulsive. I was
> either working or sleeping. I ate while working. Would sometimes work
> 30 hours before crashing. When the clock said six o'clock, I had to
> look out the window to see whether it was AM or PM.
>
> I was working on software (an operating system) that would have been
> on magazine covers. I wouldn't have been so turned on by applications
> programming.
I have a hunch that is more age related than home/office oriented. I
have owned a few companies where I was either very close or had a
parallel home system, and did the same thing. But I was twenty years
younger.
I still spend an hour playing with computers for every hour of bill out,
but now I play with stuff I like, and do it quite separately from work.
Bill out, I am a clock watcher ... but then I am charging junior
rates, and getting all of it, $100%. I email a bill each Friday, and a
cheque arrives in the mail one w from the following Tuesday. Both my
customer and I get a bargain ... he gets a solid programmer that can
work alone, and I get to work 30 hours a w for enough to live
comfortably on. I am not getting paid to worry about it after hours, and
I do not.
With no travel time, and no wasted time, I can do that between 9 and 5,
taking one day a w off at my leisure. Often, if the weather is nice,
I'll take a couple of afternoons off and go to the park. I have not
worked an evening or a wend in two years, though in an emergency, I
would.
I think it a simpler and more satisfying life, though I'll grant it's
not for everyone.
Donald
| |
| Robert Wagner 2005-03-16, 3:55 am |
| On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 14:21:24 GMT, "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net>
wrote:
>
>On 14-Mar-2005, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>
>
>Market forces say whatever you and your employer agree to is the correct amount.
Only when there's sufficient liquidity i.e. enough buyers and sellers.
Free markets don't work in the absence of liquidity, and are wisely
shut down. For example, when there's a panic or crash.
Futures markets are shut down automatically when prices move "by the
limit"
>
>And you were incompetent, exploited, or exploiter?
Contracting companies have unsuccessfully attempted to exploit me.
I've worked with contractors who were being exploited, which was
obvious to me but not to them. I've worked with Indians who KNEW they
were being exploited and resented it. They eventually moved back to
India, with a low opinion of the US.
Free marketers such as floor traders laugh off 'morality'. They'll
fleece a neophyte trader without a second thought. But they have a
natural sense of fairness, or as they might put it 'inefficient
markets'. It's just not right to exploit people who don't understand
the language or culture. Computer pimps who do so are not champions of
free markets, they're predators.
What's the difference? In pure terms, a free market is a zero-sum
game. For every winner, there's an equal and opposite loser. The
predator game is not zero-sum. The losses of a large population are
greater than the benefits to the predators. In the overall inequality,
society loses value.
>
>How were these figures derived? If the woman's pimp got only 25% would that
>have meant that she was being piggish?
The woman WAS the pimp .. the one who piggishly wanted 71% gross
profit. The figures were derived by marketplace norms for markup and
operating expenses.
| |
| Robert Wagner 2005-03-16, 3:55 am |
| On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 14:26:12 GMT, "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net>
wrote:
>
>On 14-Mar-2005, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>I've been a contractor for years (I'm not now), and have worked with lots of
>contractors. But we all live at home and commuted more. Commuting an extra
>hour per day is not good for family life, but certainly beats renting an
>apartment close to work, paying for two homes, and only seeing the family on
>wends. The occasional remote ws were bad enough.
Transient contractor:
Primary 'home' 4,000
Temporary home 12,000
Income tax 5,000
FICA 4,000
Total 25,000
'Perm' contractor:
Primary home 12,000
Income tax 20,000
FICA 8,000
Commuting 10,000
Total 50,000
Difference 25,000
| |
| Robert Wagner 2005-03-16, 3:55 am |
| On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:25:06 -0500, Donald Tees
<donald_tees@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>About 4-5 years back, I dropped my rate to 1/3, and decided to never
>take another job where I had to leave home. If they outsource to India,
>then they can outsource to my high speed line as well. I now get
>dressed and have breakfast during my morning coffee break, and spend
>zero hours/dollars on commuting/traveling to and from work. I wish the
>technology had been there 20 years ago. I'd never go back, and end up
>with more money in my pocket.
When I worked at home, for two years, I became compulsive. I was
either working or sleeping. I ate while working. Would sometimes work
30 hours before crashing. When the clock said six o'clock, I had to
look out the window to see whether it was AM or PM.
I was working on software (an operating system) that would have been
on magazine covers. I wouldn't have been so turned on by applications
programming.
| |
| Robert Wagner 2005-03-16, 3:55 am |
| On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 14:15:36 GMT, "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net>
wrote:
>
>On 14-Mar-2005, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>
>
>What kind of contract do you have with your pimp? I've had hourly rates and
>salaries, but never any that were defined as a percentage of what the pimp gets.
My contracts are the same. But contracts are invalid when based on
factual error, especially when the error is due to fraud. If the pimp
sent a forged invoice, as Doc described, he'd lose all credibility
with the court. The valid contract would then be the verbal one.
| |
| Donald Tees 2005-03-16, 3:55 am |
| Robert Wagner wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 14:26:12 GMT, "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Transient contractor:
>
> Primary 'home' 4,000
> Temporary home 12,000
> Income tax 5,000
> FICA 4,000
> Total 25,000
>
> 'Perm' contractor:
>
> Primary home 12,000
> Income tax 20,000
> FICA 8,000
> Commuting 10,000
> Total 50,000
>
> Difference 25,000
>
>
Work from home
Primary home 4800 (I rent a bedroom in my corporation's
office/loft and rent a second room to my roomy)
Secondary income 4800 (office space sub lease)
Corporate income = what I bill + 4800(roomies rent), less- all rent,
telephone, computers, repairs, car expense, hydro, water, internet
costs, books, magazines, office supplies, the corporate coffee pot,
accounting fees, legal fees, etc.
My income = corporate profit+4800 taxable benefit (I do not actually pay
the rent each month). Net corporate profit after salaries=0
Commuting = 0
Income tax when done about $2300 last year, maybe $4g this.
Donald
| |
| Robert Wagner 2005-03-16, 3:55 am |
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On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:07:23 -0600, LX-i <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote:
>docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
>We share something in common... :) The year I got out of high school,
>I got into Vector Marketing Corporation, AKA Cutco knives. Yes, they
>are the best knives ever - I'm still using the ones that came in my
>display set. But, I couldn't sell a single knife!
Henkels is better and Wusthof is better yet, because they're forged
rather than stamped, as Cutco is. The best by far, dramatically
better, is Kyocera. It's high-tech ceramic rather than stainless
steel. It has a Rockwell hardness close to that of a diamond. I
trashed my beloved Wusthof knives and replaced them with a single
Kyocera.
I hate to say it but el cheapo serrated knives are pretty darn good.
You can't sharpen them. When they get dull, buy another set at WalMart
for $10.
Vector is a marketing scheme that exploits both reps and consumers.
Its products are good, not the best, but way overpriced.
>I didn't do much better with Amway - although, buying stuff I needed
>anyway helped it not be a complete wash.
Also overpriced. Same for Mary Kay and Fuller Brush (which replaced
its good products with junk).
Are people so desperate for companionship that they'll overpay for
unexceptional products? They should Get A Life.
| |
| Robert Wagner 2005-03-16, 3:55 am |
| On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 20:44:42 -0500, Donald Tees
<donald_tees@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Robert Wagner wrote:
>
>I have a hunch that is more age related than home/office oriented. I
>have owned a few companies where I was either very close or had a
>parallel home system, and did the same thing. But I was twenty years
>younger.
My experience happened fifteen years ago. Close enough.
>I still spend an hour playing with computers for every hour of bill out,
>but now I play with stuff I like, and do it quite separately from work.
> Bill out, I am a clock watcher ... but then I am charging junior
>rates, and getting all of it, $100%. I email a bill each Friday, and a
>cheque arrives in the mail one w from the following Tuesday. Both my
>customer and I get a bargain ... he gets a solid programmer that can
>work alone, and I get to work 30 hours a w for enough to live
>comfortably on. I am not getting paid to worry about it after hours, and
>I do not.
Wish I could find such an arrangement. Most US employers want a
conventional workplace, even though the computer is thousands of miles
away. In eight contracting gigs, I've actually seen the computer only
once, and that one was soon transferred to a remote site.
>With no travel time, and no wasted time, I can do that between 9 and 5,
>taking one day a w off at my leisure. Often, if the weather is nice,
>I'll take a couple of afternoons off and go to the park. I have not
>worked an evening or a wend in two years, though in an emergency, I
>would.
I go home for lunch every day and occasionally we enjoy a French
Picnic Tart in the park. At one place, on Long Island, we had a
'park' in the yard, complete with lots of trees and picnic tables. At
others, we had to walk half a block.
>I think it a simpler and more satisfying life, though I'll grant it's
>not for everyone.
Amen.
| |
| docdwarf@panix.com 2005-03-16, 3:55 pm |
| In article <iv8f319lao1f9ltufgcph9aujblral45dn@4ax.com>,
Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:07:23 -0600, LX-i <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>
>Henkels is better and Wusthof is better yet, because they're forged
>rather than stamped, as Cutco is. The best by far, dramatically
>better, is Kyocera.
I was raised using Henkels and have a great fondness for them; I have
heard Very Good Things about the ceramic blades... but I was surprised, a
few years back, when I received the gift of a Furi (Australian-made) 8"
East-West knife. Wonderful bit of technology and I wound up getting a set
of them that I enjoy greatly.
>It's high-tech ceramic rather than stainless
>steel. It has a Rockwell hardness close to that of a diamond. I
>trashed my beloved Wusthof knives and replaced them with a single
>Kyocera.
Hmmmmm... I might have to learn a new kind of discipline for such a tool;
at time I will use a blade to pry or separate things (slice/twist motion)
and I don't think that kind of behavior is recommended for the ceramics.
>
>I hate to say it but el cheapo serrated knives are pretty darn good.
>You can't sharpen them. When they get dull, buy another set at WalMart
>for $10.
Eh... micro-serrated technology (originally marketed by the Ginsu folks, I
believe) has its uses... but it offends my sense of aesthetics; a
properly-sharpened blade has a *bite* to it while the other always feel
like a saw.
(That being said... I picked up an eight-pack of mirco-serrated 'steak
knives' at a discount store years ago and I don't worry about using them
as mere tools.)
DD
| |
| Howard Brazee 2005-03-16, 3:55 pm |
|
On 15-Mar-2005, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
> My contracts are the same. But contracts are invalid when based on
> factual error, especially when the error is due to fraud. If the pimp
> sent a forged invoice, as Doc described, he'd lose all credibility
> with the court. The valid contract would then be the verbal one.
Both contracts are verbal.
| |
| Howard Brazee 2005-03-16, 3:55 pm |
|
On 15-Mar-2005, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
> What's the difference? In pure terms, a free market is a zero-sum
> game. For every winner, there's an equal and opposite loser. The
> predator game is not zero-sum. The losses of a large population are
> greater than the benefits to the predators. In the overall inequality,
> society loses value.
I couldn't disagree more.
But such a belief is entirely consistent with what you have told us before.
Everybody's a sucker or an exploiter except for you.
>
> The woman WAS the pimp .. the one who piggishly wanted 71% gross
> profit. The figures were derived by marketplace norms for markup and
> operating expenses.
If she wanted 29%, then it would have been the contractor who's piggish?
| |
| Robert Wagner 2005-03-16, 3:55 pm |
| On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:06:39 GMT, "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net>
wrote:
>On 15-Mar-2005, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>
>
>Both contracts are verbal.
No. We're called contractors because there is a written contract
specifying, for one thing, the pay rate.
| |
| Robert Wagner 2005-03-16, 3:55 pm |
| On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:10:41 GMT, "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net>
wrote:
>On 15-Mar-2005, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>
>
>I couldn't disagree more.
>
>But such a belief is entirely consistent with what you have told us before.
>Everybody's a sucker or an exploiter except for you.
I didn't say nor believe that.
>
>If she wanted 29%, then it would have been the contractor who's piggish?
Of course not. If the contractor took all but 5%, he would be piggish.
| |
| Howard Brazee 2005-03-16, 3:55 pm |
|
On 16-Mar-2005, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>
> No. We're called contractors because there is a written contract
> specifying, for one thing, the pay rate.
I think you're confusing the words "oral" and "verbal". I suppose there is a
lot of verbal sex in this world, but the advantage of written contracts over
oral contracts is that they're easier to verify after the fact.
| |
| Robert Wagner 2005-03-17, 3:55 pm |
| On 16 Mar 2005 09:38:38 -0500, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>In article <iv8f319lao1f9ltufgcph9aujblral45dn@4ax.com>,
>Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>
>I was raised using Henkels and have a great fondness for them; I have
>heard Very Good Things about the ceramic blades... but I was surprised, a
>few years back, when I received the gift of a Furi (Australian-made) 8"
>East-West knife. Wonderful bit of technology and I wound up getting a set
>of them that I enjoy greatly.
I hadn't heard of them. Thanks for the prompt. They have clean-looking
design in a stainless-steel knife with an integrated ergonomically
designed stainless handle. Wusthof has a lookalike Culinar line that,
tellingly, does not include Chef's knives.
Seamless metal handles are a dilemma. They appear to be designed for
dishwashers. I'd never wash a quality knife in a dishwasher. Handle
damage aside, it seems disrespectful.
For medium-quality, dishwasher-safe, stamped blades (like Cutco) look
to the Kershaw Komachi line, which sells for $20-30 per.
>
>Hmmmmm... I might have to learn a new kind of discipline for such a tool;
>at time I will use a blade to pry or separate things (slice/twist motion)
>and I don't think that kind of behavior is recommended for the ceramics.
You're right. The blade is almost as fragile as glass. I broke one
$200 blade by neglecting to pack well enough for a move. Instructions
say not to cut into bones (no concern for vegetarians) nor frozen
food. You definitely can't use it as a pry tool.
I think of ceramic blades being similar to silk sew-up bicycle tires,
which go for $100 and a flat can't be repaired reliably. The cost of
very-best quality is above-average user care.
>
>Eh... micro-serrated technology (originally marketed by the Ginsu folks, I
>believe) has its uses... but it offends my sense of aesthetics; a
>properly-sharpened blade has a *bite* to it while the other always feel
>like a saw.
They offend me too. Mine came as 'free tools' with an $80 cookware
set. Before discarding them, I tried the chef's knife a few times. I
liked the knives, plastic tools and well-designed rack so much, I kept
them after discarding the pots.
I used to be but am no longer a pot snob. I used to treasure enameled
cast iron, Chantal, AllClad and tinned copper costing over $100 per.
Now I discard and replace on every annual move. Five piece sets with
surprisingly good quality are available for $80-100. Wearever is a
good brand.
But I will not give up the 24x12x2" hard maple cutting board I've been
hauling around for more than 20 years. Plastic cutting boards are an
affront to everything holy.
| |
| docdwarf@panix.com 2005-03-17, 3:55 pm |
| In article <budh31hc268d8gs4dou011tek6at46j2v6@4ax.com>,
Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>On 16 Mar 2005 09:38:38 -0500, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
[snip]
[color=darkred]
>
>I hadn't heard of them. Thanks for the prompt. They have clean-looking
>design in a stainless-steel knife with an integrated ergonomically
>designed stainless handle. Wusthof has a lookalike Culinar line that,
>tellingly, does not include Chef's knives.
I don't know from 'ergonomically designed handles' - never heard anyone
say 'our tools are designed to make you work harder!' - but I was, quite
honestly, amazed. Not only do they sit well in the hand but there's some
kind of microgrooving they cut into the hand which keeps them from
slipping when they're wet... never thought a soggy hand could hang on to
naked steel that well.
>
>Seamless metal handles are a dilemma. They appear to be designed for
>dishwashers. I'd never wash a quality knife in a dishwasher. Handle
>damage aside, it seems disrespectful.
I came across a website once that listed rated dishwasher safety for
knives... Furi were definitely not. That aside, a tool is to be treated
as it deserves (tautology)... and these tools deserve, by my standards,
hand-washing, drying and then a touch-up on the steel or the 'diamond
fingers'.
>
>For medium-quality, dishwasher-safe, stamped blades (like Cutco) look
>to the Kershaw Komachi line, which sells for $20-30 per.
Heh... for my knocking-around kitchen knives I have a set of Farberware
that I got long ago... forged, decent enough balance, they hold an edge...
and I'm not afraid to dishwasher them.
>
>
>You're right. The blade is almost as fragile as glass. I broke one
>$200 blade by neglecting to pack well enough for a move. Instructions
>say not to cut into bones (no concern for vegetarians) nor frozen
>food. You definitely can't use it as a pry tool.
>
>I think of ceramic blades being similar to silk sew-up bicycle tires,
>which go for $100 and a flat can't be repaired reliably. The cost of
>very-best quality is above-average user care.
ROI... Life as Balance and all that.
[snip]
>I used to be but am no longer a pot snob. I used to treasure enameled
>cast iron, Chantal, AllClad and tinned copper costing over $100 per.
>Now I discard and replace on every annual move. Five piece sets with
>surprisingly good quality are available for $80-100. Wearever is a
>good brand.
What works for me is the familiar balance of the old Revereware
copper-bottomed set with the bird's-head handles... you know, the kind you
find in yard sales after Grannie dies.
>
>But I will not give up the 24x12x2" hard maple cutting board I've been
>hauling around for more than 20 years. Plastic cutting boards are an
>affront to everything holy.
I keep both large and small wooden 'paddle'-type boards around... but
recently I've found myself using those plastic sheets... kinda like
http://www.rollingpin.com/index.asp...lay=dept&dept=2
but with colors... some folks use the colors to separate raw from cooked
ingredients (especially meats) but I just use the colors because...
because that's what I found at the markdown shop. Sure, they wear out...
but they're cheap and when a full sheet starts to split through I'll cut
it into smaller sheets that still have integrity and use those either for
smaller cutting tasks or...
.... or for eas | | |