Cobol - Re: Salaries & Contractors

Author

Re: Salaries & Contractors

Howard Brazee

2005-04-01, 3:55 pm

What I would need as a contractor in NYC or in Alabama would not be similar at
all. It's not how much I earn that I care about - it's how much I take home
after the expenses of living there.

I never understood the demand about pro athletes who work for Canadian teams
that they get paid in U.S. Dollars. The exchange rate doesn't fluctuate that
much. Just negotiate your salary for what you're satisfied with with either
currency. It isn't the currency that matters, it's the money.

docdwarf@panix.com

2005-04-01, 3:55 pm

In article <d2jn45$2ea$1@peabody.colorado.edu>,
Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> wrote:
>What I would need as a contractor in NYC or in Alabama would not be similar at
>all. It's not how much I earn that I care about - it's how much I take home
>after the expenses of living there.

I would say yes... and no. I've heard pimps attempt to justify what I
would call paltry rates with 'Well, the work's in Bentonville/Cedar
Rapids/Spider Crotch, Tennessee... the cost of living's lower there'; my
reply has been 'Ahhhhh... so when I try to buy a new car or some shares of
stock or send my kid to Princeton they're going to say 'Oh, you live in
Bentonville/Cedar Rapids/Spider Crotch, Tennessee... for *you* the rates
are lower!'?'

(http://www.homefair.com/homefair/calc/salcalc.html is - for residents of
the USA or folks considering working there - a useful tool)

DD

Michael Mattias

2005-04-01, 3:55 pm

<docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:d2jppn$mlq$1@panix5.panix.com...
> In article <d2jn45$2ea$1@peabody.colorado.edu>,
> Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> wrote:
similar at[color=darkred]
home[color=darkred]
>
> I would say yes... and no. I've heard pimps attempt to justify what I
> would call paltry rates with 'Well, the work's in Bentonville/Cedar
> Rapids/Spider Crotch, Tennessee... the cost of living's lower there'; my
> reply has been 'Ahhhhh... so when I try to buy a new car or some shares of
> stock or send my kid to Princeton they're going to say 'Oh, you live in
> Bentonville/Cedar Rapids/Spider Crotch, Tennessee... for *you* the rates
> are lower!'?'

Doc, I'm convinced your personal hero is Vince Lombardi.

Unfortunately, I think your hero workship is misplaced, based on bad input.

Mr. Lombardi stated "Winning is the Only Thing", not "Money is the Only
Thing."

MCM

docdwarf@panix.com

2005-04-01, 3:55 pm

In article <hZd3e.16812$DW.10872@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com>,
Michael Mattias <michael.mattias@gte.net> wrote:
><docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:d2jppn$mlq$1@panix5.panix.com...
>
>
>Doc, I'm convinced your personal hero is Vince Lombardi.

Your conviction is not supported by my own impression of myself... but
what do I know about me, anyhow?

>
>Unfortunately, I think your hero workship is misplaced, based on bad input.
>
>Mr. Lombardi stated "Winning is the Only Thing", not "Money is the Only
>Thing."

I don't believe that money is the only thing... but it is a part of Doing
Business which I believe needs to be considered. For example... I'm more
than happy to choose a contract that provides more interesting work at a
lower rate because I find it to be more interesting, I am *not* happy to
be told 'Well, since the work is interesting you will have to accept a
lower rate for it.'

While work has value to me in both financial (what I can get paid for it)
and intangible ('interesting') terms the work's value to a client is -
based on my experience - most often determined by ROI or the potential for
increased income. Since our sets of consideration most readily intersect
in the financial area I try to phrase my arguments in the most common
language... while they might not consider what I find interesting (as
several thread here about language might demonstrate) to have merit they
seem to be able to converse about making a buck fairly well.

DD

Robert Wagner

2005-04-02, 3:55 am

On 1 Apr 2005 10:36:23 -0500, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:

>In article <d2jn45$2ea$1@peabody.colorado.edu>,
>Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> wrote:
>
>I would say yes... and no. I've heard pimps attempt to justify what I
>would call paltry rates with 'Well, the work's in Bentonville/Cedar
>Rapids/Spider Crotch, Tennessee... the cost of living's lower there'; my
>reply has been 'Ahhhhh... so when I try to buy a new car or some shares of
>stock or send my kid to Princeton they're going to say 'Oh, you live in
>Bentonville/Cedar Rapids/Spider Crotch, Tennessee... for *you* the rates
>are lower!'?'

Generally, contractors do better in high cost of living places. Cost
of living indexes reflect primarily cost of home ownership. Apartments
cost about the same everywhere -- $600-900/mo. Exceptions are
Manhattan, San Francisco and downtown Chicago. Even in those places,
if you're willing to commute via train or bus, you can find an
apartment costing $900/mo or less. My $900/mo apartment in Parsippany,
NJ, was 45 minutes from Wall Street and Midtown Manhattan by bus. I
wouldn't do the commute, I want to go home for lunch, but many
contractors do.

High cost of living places are better because:

1) Higher per diem means substantial tax savings. Middle America at
$100/day vs. NYC at $200/day means additional $26K/yr in tax exempt
income. At 28%, that means you pay $4K less. If the apartment costs
$300/mo more, you're still even or ahead.

2)It's more likely you can find another high-paying contract in the
same city, thus avoiding moving expense.

3)More entertainment options. Boredom will drive you crazy in
Bentonville and Cedar Rapids, unless you're really creative. The best
places aren't necessarily the biggest cities. The best place I lived
was Jacksonville, Fl. The city sucked but it was close to the natural
beauty at Okefenokee, Merritt Island and Fernandina Beach. While
living near NYC, I attended concerts at Madison Square Garden, pizza
places in Brooklyn, Soho, Central Park, etc. While living near
Chicago, I visited Navy Pier, great parks, Polish neighborhoods, etc.

>(http://www.homefair.com/homefair/calc/salcalc.html is - for residents of
>the USA or folks considering working there - a useful tool)

It's not useful unless you own a home in both the old and new place.

Howard Brazee

2005-04-06, 11:59 am

On 1-Apr-2005, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:

> My $900/mo apartment in Parsippany,
> NJ, was 45 minutes from Wall Street and Midtown Manhattan by bus. I
> wouldn't do the commute, I want to go home for lunch, but many
> contractors do.

I like programming. My cost of having a job isn't the work I do - it's that
time spent doing that work is time not spent doing things I like better.

My company might get 8 hours of work from me today. But if I live an hour
away, I am paying 10 hours of my time. They have to be satisfied that they
are getting value for the 8 hours that they buying - and I have to be satisfied
that I'm getting value for the 10 hours I'm spending.

docdwarf@panix.com

2005-04-06, 11:59 am

In article <3p2s419fhbsd18m3sij8563sqv3jtjs4vt@4ax.com>,
Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>On 1 Apr 2005 10:36:23 -0500, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:

[snip]

>
>It's not useful unless you own a home in both the old and new place.

Really? What is it about the 'rent' option on the city-choice page do you
find unsatisfactory?

DD

Robert Wagner

2005-04-06, 11:59 am

On 2 Apr 2005 09:35:55 -0500, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:

>In article <3p2s419fhbsd18m3sij8563sqv3jtjs4vt@4ax.com>,
>Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>
>Really? What is it about the 'rent' option on the city-choice page do you
>find unsatisfactory?

I entered two medium income cities where I lived recently:

relative to 100K in NJ
Parsippany, NJ Rent: 80,789
Edina, MN Own: 80,789

No way. Things cost more in MN. Two eggs, hash browns, toast and
coffee
In NJ: 2.99
In MN: 7.50

Why are numbers the same? Lets try the next towns over. Montclair NJ
is an Old Money place where the least expensive house costs over 500K.
If you saw the movie Cheaper By The Dozen, that's Montclair.
Bloomington MN is an upper middle-class suburb of Minneapolis where
houses cost 300-400K.

Montclair, NJ Rent: 112,257
Bloomington, MN Own: 77,054

Renter doesn't look right. Let's try the big city.

Montclair, NJ Rent: 115,661
Minneapolis, MN Own: 82,995

Maybe there's an error in Montclair data. Let's try an equally
expensive upper-crust NJ place:

Morristown, NJ Rent: 91,463
Minneapolis, MN Own: 89,859

They think Montclair is 20% cheaper than Morristown? No way; it's
higher. Let's look at the database:

Montclair Morristown
Minneapolis Bloomington
Median Household Income $74,894 57,562 37,974
54,628
Cost of Living Index (U.S. = 100) 147.43 136.18 122.36
113.60
3-Bedroom House Price 383,000 328,290 266,650
235,000
2-Bedroom Apartment Rent 850 1,300 1,050
1,000

Ah, the apartment rents are estimates. They are comparing apples with
oranges. An $850 apartment in Montclair is a 50 year-old walk-up over
a storefront. A $1,000 apartment in Bloomington is in a new luxury
complex with tennis courts, whirlpool, landscaped grounds, heated
underground parking and has a nature preserve across the street. A
similar apartment in Edina or Eden Prairie goes for $850 (I live in
one).

A $1,300 apartment in Morristown is in a 'regular' apartment building.
It costs so much because it's in Morristown. A few miles away in
Parsippany, a similar apartment costs $900.

Montclair and Morristown have new luxury apartments comparable to the
one in Bloomington. They rent for $1,600 and up.

Housing price and Income look about right, for 10 years ago. Add 50%
for today's figures, 100% for NJ houses.

A renter moving from Montclair to Minneapolis needs $15K more because
... rent is 1.8K higher. What's the other 13.2K for? A renter moving
from Morristown to Minneapolis needs 10K less because .. rent is 3K
lower? They're using incorrect apartment rates as the base for
computing their own cost of living index. They're getting the wrong
answers.

Bottom line: manufactured goods (stuff sold at Wal-Mart + automobiles)
costs the same everywhere in the US. Food and energy vary place to
place for reasons that defy logic, but variations cancel each other,
so the difference is not significant. Services (restaurants, haircuts,
taxis) reflect what the market will bear, so are higher in affluent
places. One can rent an above average to luxury apartment anywhere for
less than $1,000. If the rate is too high in one town or neighborhood,
go to the next, and the next. You'll soon find one that was overbuilt
and is hungry for tenants.

Do not use internet Apartment Finder sites. Apartments there tend to
be overpriced and overhyped. I go to Yahoo Yellow Pages, put in the
office address and get a list of ALL apartments sorted by distance.
After I've been there a w

, in a hotel, I drive around and visit
them, with preference to well-kept cars in the parking lot and lots of
vacancies. An in-person visit is the only way you can decide; you
can't tell from Web pages or phone calls.

Do ask for month-to-month rather than a fixed-term lease, and be
prepared to pay 10% more for it. If they won't consider it, move on.

In East Coast cities, especially New York, many apartments are not in
professionally managed apartment buildings but rather in private homes
or 'two family homes', an euphemism for apartments disguised to look
like a house. They're owned by amateur investors and the only way to
find them is through ads in throwaway newspapers like Penny Saver.
Owners will drive you crazy with ideosyncratic rules and unethically
keep your security deposit for some flimsy or invented 'damage' you
allegedly caused. Also, you usually have to pay a real estate agent
one month's rent for 'finder's fee'. I played in that market once, on
Long Island. Never again. The apartment was wonderful, the ground
floor of a 'house' half a mile from the office. But the $1,600 rent
was too high and the unbusinesslike relationship, ignoble. My advice
is to avoid this secondary market and stick with professionally
managed 'regular' apartments. As a last resort, if you have no choice,
post your deposit in escrow with a third-party who will inspect the
place before and after, and write that into the lease. Don't expect
honesty or fairness from an amateur landlord, no matter friendly he or
she is at first meeting.

Pete Dashwood

2005-04-06, 11:59 am

Thanks Robert,

even though I am unlikely to ever live in the places you describe, I found
your post interest
"Robert Wagner" <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote in message
news:a36u41poqjj49bt1aemkf36c4bva0qmq1s@
4ax.com...
> On 2 Apr 2005 09:35:55 -0500, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
of[color=darkred]
you[color=darkred]
>
> I entered two medium income cities where I lived recently:
>
> relative to 100K in NJ
> Parsippany, NJ Rent: 80,789
> Edina, MN Own: 80,789
>
> No way. Things cost more in MN. Two eggs, hash browns, toast and
> coffee
> In NJ: 2.99
> In MN: 7.50
>
> Why are numbers the same? Lets try the next towns over. Montclair NJ
> is an Old Money place where the least expensive house costs over 500K.
> If you saw the movie Cheaper By The Dozen, that's Montclair.
> Bloomington MN is an upper middle-class suburb of Minneapolis where
> houses cost 300-400K.
>
> Montclair, NJ Rent: 112,257
> Bloomington, MN Own: 77,054
>
> Renter doesn't look right. Let's try the big city.
>
> Montclair, NJ Rent: 115,661
> Minneapolis, MN Own: 82,995
>
> Maybe there's an error in Montclair data. Let's try an equally
> expensive upper-crust NJ place:
>
> Morristown, NJ Rent: 91,463
> Minneapolis, MN Own: 89,859
>
> They think Montclair is 20% cheaper than Morristown? No way; it's
> higher. Let's look at the database:
>
> Montclair Morristown
> Minneapolis Bloomington
> Median Household Income $74,894 57,562 37,974
> 54,628
> Cost of Living Index (U.S. = 100) 147.43 136.18 122.36
> 113.60
> 3-Bedroom House Price 383,000 328,290 266,650
> 235,000
> 2-Bedroom Apartment Rent 850 1,300 1,050
> 1,000
>
> Ah, the apartment rents are estimates. They are comparing apples with
> oranges. An $850 apartment in Montclair is a 50 year-old walk-up over
> a storefront. A $1,000 apartment in Bloomington is in a new luxury
> complex with tennis courts, whirlpool, landscaped grounds, heated
> underground parking and has a nature preserve across the street. A
> similar apartment in Edina or Eden Prairie goes for $850 (I live in
> one).
>
> A $1,300 apartment in Morristown is in a 'regular' apartment building.
> It costs so much because it's in Morristown. A few miles away in
> Parsippany, a similar apartment costs $900.
>
> Montclair and Morristown have new luxury apartments comparable to the
> one in Bloomington. They rent for $1,600 and up.
>
> Housing price and Income look about right, for 10 years ago. Add 50%
> for today's figures, 100% for NJ houses.
>
> A renter moving from Montclair to Minneapolis needs $15K more because
> .. rent is 1.8K higher. What's the other 13.2K for? A renter moving
> from Morristown to Minneapolis needs 10K less because .. rent is 3K
> lower? They're using incorrect apartment rates as the base for
> computing their own cost of living index. They're getting the wrong
> answers.
>
> Bottom line: manufactured goods (stuff sold at Wal-Mart + automobiles)
> costs the same everywhere in the US. Food and energy vary place to
> place for reasons that defy logic, but variations cancel each other,
> so the difference is not significant. Services (restaurants, haircuts,
> taxis) reflect what the market will bear, so are higher in affluent
> places. One can rent an above average to luxury apartment anywhere for
> less than $1,000. If the rate is too high in one town or neighborhood,
> go to the next, and the next. You'll soon find one that was overbuilt
> and is hungry for tenants.
>
> Do not use internet Apartment Finder sites. Apartments there tend to
> be overpriced and overhyped. I go to Yahoo Yellow Pages, put in the
> office address and get a list of ALL apartments sorted by distance.
> After I've been there a w

, in a hotel, I drive around and visit
> them, with preference to well-kept cars in the parking lot and lots of
> vacancies. An in-person visit is the only way you can decide; you
> can't tell from Web pages or phone calls.
>
> Do ask for month-to-month rather than a fixed-term lease, and be
> prepared to pay 10% more for it. If they won't consider it, move on.
>
> In East Coast cities, especially New York, many apartments are not in
> professionally managed apartment buildings but rather in private homes
> or 'two family homes', an euphemism for apartments disguised to look
> like a house. They're owned by amateur investors and the only way to
> find them is through ads in throwaway newspapers like Penny Saver.
> Owners will drive you crazy with ideosyncratic rules and unethically
> keep your security deposit for some flimsy or invented 'damage' you
> allegedly caused. Also, you usually have to pay a real estate agent
> one month's rent for 'finder's fee'. I played in that market once, on
> Long Island. Never again. The apartment was wonderful, the ground
> floor of a 'house' half a mile from the office. But the $1,600 rent
> was too high and the unbusinesslike relationship, ignoble. My advice
> is to avoid this secondary market and stick with professionally
> managed 'regular' apartments. As a last resort, if you have no choice,
> post your deposit in escrow with a third-party who will inspect the
> place before and after, and write that into the lease. Don't expect
> honesty or fairness from an amateur landlord, no matter friendly he or
> she is at first meeting.
>
>

Pete Dashwood

2005-04-06, 11:59 am

Bugger!

The old "left the cursor on send and bumped the bloody notebook" syndrome...
:-)

Sorry for duplication, now where was I....

Thanks Robert,

even though I am unlikely to ever live in the places you describe, I found
your post interesting.

I think there is some sound advice there for any contractor looking for
accommodation anywhere.

Pete.

"Robert Wagner" <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote in message
news:a36u41poqjj49bt1aemkf36c4bva0qmq1s@
4ax.com...
> On 2 Apr 2005 09:35:55 -0500, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
of[color=darkred]
you[color=darkred]
>
> I entered two medium income cities where I lived recently:
>
> relative to 100K in NJ
> Parsippany, NJ Rent: 80,789
> Edina, MN Own: 80,789
>
> No way. Things cost more in MN. Two eggs, hash browns, toast and
> coffee
> In NJ: 2.99
> In MN: 7.50
>
> Why are numbers the same? Lets try the next towns over. Montclair NJ
> is an Old Money place where the least expensive house costs over 500K.
> If you saw the movie Cheaper By The Dozen, that's Montclair.
> Bloomington MN is an upper middle-class suburb of Minneapolis where
> houses cost 300-400K.
>
> Montclair, NJ Rent: 112,257
> Bloomington, MN Own: 77,054
>
> Renter doesn't look right. Let's try the big city.
>
> Montclair, NJ Rent: 115,661
> Minneapolis, MN Own: 82,995
>
> Maybe there's an error in Montclair data. Let's try an equally
> expensive upper-crust NJ place:
>
> Morristown, NJ Rent: 91,463
> Minneapolis, MN Own: 89,859
>
> They think Montclair is 20% cheaper than Morristown? No way; it's
> higher. Let's look at the database:
>
> Montclair Morristown
> Minneapolis Bloomington
> Median Household Income $74,894 57,562 37,974
> 54,628
> Cost of Living Index (U.S. = 100) 147.43 136.18 122.36
> 113.60
> 3-Bedroom House Price 383,000 328,290 266,650
> 235,000
> 2-Bedroom Apartment Rent 850 1,300 1,050
> 1,000
>
> Ah, the apartment rents are estimates. They are comparing apples with
> oranges. An $850 apartment in Montclair is a 50 year-old walk-up over
> a storefront. A $1,000 apartment in Bloomington is in a new luxury
> complex with tennis courts, whirlpool, landscaped grounds, heated
> underground parking and has a nature preserve across the street. A
> similar apartment in Edina or Eden Prairie goes for $850 (I live in
> one).
>
> A $1,300 apartment in Morristown is in a 'regular' apartment building.
> It costs so much because it's in Morristown. A few miles away in
> Parsippany, a similar apartment costs $900.
>
> Montclair and Morristown have new luxury apartments comparable to the
> one in Bloomington. They rent for $1,600 and up.
>
> Housing price and Income look about right, for 10 years ago. Add 50%
> for today's figures, 100% for NJ houses.
>
> A renter moving from Montclair to Minneapolis needs $15K more because
> .. rent is 1.8K higher. What's the other 13.2K for? A renter moving
> from Morristown to Minneapolis needs 10K less because .. rent is 3K
> lower? They're using incorrect apartment rates as the base for
> computing their own cost of living index. They're getting the wrong
> answers.
>
> Bottom line: manufactured goods (stuff sold at Wal-Mart + automobiles)
> costs the same everywhere in the US. Food and energy vary place to
> place for reasons that defy logic, but variations cancel each other,
> so the difference is not significant. Services (restaurants, haircuts,
> taxis) reflect what the market will bear, so are higher in affluent
> places. One can rent an above average to luxury apartment anywhere for
> less than $1,000. If the rate is too high in one town or neighborhood,
> go to the next, and the next. You'll soon find one that was overbuilt
> and is hungry for tenants.
>
> Do not use internet Apartment Finder sites. Apartments there tend to
> be overpriced and overhyped. I go to Yahoo Yellow Pages, put in the
> office address and get a list of ALL apartments sorted by distance.
> After I've been there a w

Donald Tees

2005-04-06, 11:59 am

Pete Dashwood wrote:
> Thanks Robert,
>
> even though I am unlikely to ever live in the places you describe, I found
> your post interest
> "Robert Wagner" <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote in message

Yes, it was. Thank you Robert.

Funny, we have been talking the same thing at home ... wage as a simple
amount, vs the wage and the way it affects your style of living. I'm
buying myself a new bicycle this spring, first time in years. I have no
car anymore, first time in forty years.

Maybe those fellows in India have it right. Once you learn to work over
the wire, then it is possible to shop. I've been wondering what it
would be like to live in Mexico, or somewhere else warm.

Donald

docdwarf@panix.com

2005-04-06, 11:59 am

In article <a36u41poqjj49bt1aemkf36c4bva0qmq1s@4ax.com>,
Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>On 2 Apr 2005 09:35:55 -0500, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
>
>I entered two medium income cities where I lived recently:
>
> relative to 100K in NJ
>Parsippany, NJ Rent: 80,789
>Edina, MN Own: 80,789
>
>No way. Things cost more in MN. Two eggs, hash browns, toast and
>coffee
>In NJ: 2.99
>In MN: 7.50

Well, that settles the matter beyond any doubt... no, seriously, Mr
Wagner, a well-researched, thoughtful and useful posting.

DD

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