Cobol - OT: Joe McCarthy

Author

OT: Joe McCarthy

James J. Gavan

2005-12-03, 7:55 am

Joe Zitzelberger wrote:
> In article <11ou709cpemqp41@news.supernews.com>,
> "HeyBub" <heybubNOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:
> <snip>
>
>
>
> It is interesting that people still like to beat up on Joe McCarthy.
>
> Not only have 50 years of lies about 'witch-hunting' hollywood actors
> been repeated so many times that they are now regarded as truth by many.
> But the KGB document dump in the early 1990's has been widely ignored by
> all of the McCarthy detractors.
>
> If there is one many in the human history whose reputation deserves a
> serious apology, it is Joe McCarthy. He was amazingly accurate at
> identifying actual KGB employees working for the US government at a time
> when we we involved in a hot war with the Soviet Air Force and two of
> their puppet states.
>
> The Edward R. Murrow movie that came out last month was amazing in its
> avoidance of the information the KGB made public. It is a very artful
> piece of propaganda. Very reinforcing of the idea that if you tell a
> lie often enough, it becomes the truth.
>
> So how do you address the simple, but unavoidable, fact that many of
> those fingered by McCarthy were quite guilty? Do you just ignore it?

Well you could, seeing as it is 50 years ago. However I think his name
came up from you as an apologist on behalf of Anne Coulter. Perhaps I
first mentioned his name; dunno.

So let's get factual. As a result of your comments I went googling on
good ole Joe. But now let's now get more specific, "avoidance of the
information the KGB made public". If this one is such a hot potater in
your mind, I should be able to find a web link. Right ?

Some interesting links on KGB activity but none so far relative to good
ole Joe. Care to point me at a site ?

Jimmy

Joe Zitzelberger

2005-12-09, 3:55 am

In article <_gakf.22894$Gd6.5146@pd7tw3no>,
"James J. Gavan" <jgavandeletethis@shaw.ca> wrote:

> Joe Zitzelberger wrote:
>
> Well you could, seeing as it is 50 years ago. However I think his name
> came up from you as an apologist on behalf of Anne Coulter. Perhaps I
> first mentioned his name; dunno.
>
> So let's get factual. As a result of your comments I went googling on
> good ole Joe. But now let's now get more specific, "avoidance of the
> information the KGB made public". If this one is such a hot potater in
> your mind, I should be able to find a web link. Right ?
>
> Some interesting links on KGB activity but none so far relative to good
> ole Joe. Care to point me at a site ?
>
> Jimmy

Try the Black Book of Communism,
"http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0674076087/103-4451837-0851052?v=glance
&n=283155", for one.

You could also look at the declassified "verona" intelligence from the
US government in 1995 for some additional information

But if all you want is a website that someone else put together, here
are the first few that popped up on google.com with a realistic search
key of "kgb archives mccarthy":

http://www.spongobongo.com/em/em9820.htm
http://www.greaterthings.com/Conspi...mccarthyism.htm
http://home.att.net/~r.s.mccain/mccarthy.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Hiskey

You served with the RAF in the second world war didn't you? Were you as
lackadaisical about having Nazi sympathizers and assistants in the
English Army as you seem to be Soviet ones in the American Army?

2005-12-09, 7:55 am

In article <joe_zitzelberger-BB0C96.03241509122005@ispnews.usenetserver.com>,
Joe Zitzelberger <joe_zitzelberger@nospam.com> wrote:
>In article <_gakf.22894$Gd6.5146@pd7tw3no>,
> "James J. Gavan" <jgavandeletethis@shaw.ca> wrote:

[snip]

[snip]
[color=darkred]
>But if all you want is a website that someone else put together, here
>are the first few that popped up on google.com with a realistic search
>key of "kgb archives mccarthy":
>
> http://www.spongobongo.com/em/em9820.htm

An admitted opinion-piece, Mr Zitzelberger.

> http://www.greaterthings.com/Conspi...mccarthyism.htm

An interesting assertion and essays by Ann Coulter and James Drummey.

> http://home.att.net/~r.s.mccain/mccarthy.html

A newspaper editorial.

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Hiskey

See below for another wikipedia reference, Mr Zitzelberger. Have you ever
seen 'Our Man in Havana'? The FBI's evaluation of its own intercepts
included ( from http://cryptome.org/fbi-nsa.htm#IV.A ):

--begin quoted text:

Assuming the the messages could be introduced in evidence, we hen have a
question of identity. The fragmentary nature of the messages themselves,
the assumptions made by the cryptographers in breaking the messages, and
the questionable interpretations and translations involved, plus the
extensive use of cover names for persons and places, make the problem of
positive identification extremely difficult. Here, again, reliance would
have to be placed on the expert testimony of the cryptographers and it
appears that the case would be entirely circumstantial.

--end quoted text

(more interesting is the later consideration that taking someone to trial
would 'lead to the exposure of Government techniques and practises'...
like the kind which produced the fragementary, questionable,
likely-inadmissable evidence mentioned above. 'The food here is
terrible... and the portions so small, too!')

>
>You served with the RAF in the second world war didn't you? Were you as
>lackadaisical about having Nazi sympathizers and assistants in the
>English Army as you seem to be Soviet ones in the American Army?

There was an active Declaration of War between Great Britain and Germany,
Mr Zitzelberger... such things tend to change the relationships between
nations.

Now, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph...hy#VENONA_files :

--begin quoted text:

In 1995, when the VENONA transcripts were declassified, further detailed
information was revealed about Soviet espionage in the U.S. VENONA
specifically references at least 349 people in the U.S. - including
citizens, immigrants, and permanent residents - whom the NSA identified
engaged in clandestine activities with Soviet intelligence agencies.

--end quoted text

.... and later mentions the failure of McCarthy to supply Senator Lehman
with anything. (I'm not sure if that was the same incident as the 'get
them out by sundown' exchange during the Army-McCarthy hearings.)

The actual list is purported to be here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...e_Venona_papers

.... and *here* some debate might begin. I do not have a little list of
those whom McCarthy or his minions actually accused in public; if someone
might help in finding that then cross-referencing might be a simple
matter.

DD

James J. Gavan

2005-12-09, 6:55 pm

Joe Zitzelberger wrote:
> In article <_gakf.22894$Gd6.5146@pd7tw3no>,
> "James J. Gavan" <jgavandeletethis@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Try the Black Book of Communism,
> "http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0674076087/103-4451837-0851052?v=glance
> &n=283155", for one.
>
> You could also look at the declassified "verona" intelligence from the
> US government in 1995 for some additional information
>
> But if all you want is a website that someone else put together, here
> are the first few that popped up on google.com with a realistic search
> key of "kgb archives mccarthy":
>
> http://www.spongobongo.com/em/em9820.htm
> http://www.greaterthings.com/Conspi...mccarthyism.htm
> http://home.att.net/~r.s.mccain/mccarthy.html
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Hiskey

Thanks for the references Joe, I'll check them out - those are not ones
currently on my list that I checked out. I see Doc pre-empted me on this
topic. Not good enough - you are going to have to endure a very long
message with site quotes covering the whole miserable period.
>
> You served with the RAF in the second world war didn't you? Were you as
> lackadaisical about having Nazi sympathizers and assistants in the
> English Army as you seem to be Soviet ones in the American Army?

Not quite that old Joe. I was 14 when the Japanese surrendered :-) But
RAF starting with an apprenticeship, (and I had to sign on for 12 years
to get the apprenticeship) - Feb 1949 to Sep 1961.

Only last night I discovered I was one of Britain's unsung heroes :-).
Reading the right-wing tabloid my wife gets for the crossword puzzle,
there was an article about ex WWII vets who had commissioned their own
medals for battles the government hadn't recognized - can't remember,
but say something like the naval convoys that took supplies to the USSR.
As part of the article it said one of the people quoted had been
responsible for the government introducing the Suez Canal Zone Crisis
medal for activity during 1951-1954. "Hey that's me" sez I. googled on
British Medals. Sure enough I qualified - 'cos I was there Dec 1951
until Jul 1954.

The medal article filled me in on the background history. About 1936
Egypt was concerned that the Italian Fascists might move their way from
Libya, so they entered into a treaty, (perhaps 30 years) 1936 - 1956,
with the Brits. Went OK initially right through WWII with Brits all over
Egypt and particularly Cairo. Roughly '49 onwards the Gyppos wanted the
Brits to leave, first King Farouk, then Neguib and lastly Nasser.
Rioting, burning vehicles, stabbings, some shootings. So the Brits
retrenched to what was called the Canal Zone - pure guess - a territory
parallel to the Canal heading some 30 miles west. That's when yours
truly joins the drama serving King and Country (Lizzie was Queen in
'53). Got dumped at this godforsaken hole Abu Sueir, on the old Cairo
Road which runs West to East to Ismailia and is also parallel to the
Sweet Water Canal, (which I've referred to before). 'Sweet' it ain't !

Continuous negotiations between the British army commander and his
'friends' in Cairo to have a graceful pull-out. I think they headed for
Cyprus in 1955 after I had returned to Blighty. (That in turn created
the Cyprus problem EOKA, Colonel Grivas and Archbishop Makarios etc.,
splitting the island into the two ethnic groups, Gr

Cypriots and
Turkish Cypriots). Anyway appears some 80,000 of us (Army and RAF) were
plonked in the Canal Zone and there were something like some 500 plus
deaths, shootings, snipings, stabbings. Now one life lost is too many,
but 500 over a 2.5 year period from amongst 80,000 personnel ?

People just love this Internet stuff - incredulous as it may seem there
is a site for Abu Sueir and other places in the Zone. I read one young
guy in the RAF Regiment (Air Force marines, if you like), could only
have been 18, relating an attack by Gyppos on Abu Sueir. Well I'm
buggered if I remember it - and I was either in bed or in my office when
this 'assault' occurred ! Granted I was a desk jockey, but I never once
felt endangered the whole time I was there.

As to applying for that medal - gimmie a break - what a joke !

More follows on McCarthyism - lots more !

Jimmy

Alistair

2005-12-11, 6:55 pm

Joe Zitzelberger wrote:
> You served with the RAF in the second world war didn't you? Were you as
> lackadaisical about having Nazi sympathizers and assistants in the
> English Army as you seem to be Soviet ones in the American Army?

In the UK we have a long tradition of letting them escape to their
new-found homeland. Those that we catch we keep, those that we can not
catch we let go. (Paraphrasing a riddle about fleas).

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