Cobol - Re: Making money from Java

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Re: Making money from Java

Richard

2005-12-02, 9:04 pm

> But telling my children they *can't* pray in public school is most definitely dictatorial,

Why do they want to pray in school ? There are plenty of places that
are specifically reserved for such practices. I don't want to play
football in a church bit I don't think it dictatorial that I would be
told not to.

In any case there is no restriction on praying, just on organised
praying. If a child wants to quietly close their eyes and pray then I
doubt that anyone is doing mind-reading.

> even denied the right to pray over their food before eating!

Actually I think that was related to making _everyone_ 'pray over their
food before eating'. In other words it wasn't just that individuals did
something in their own way quietly in their own corner, but they tried
to impose it as a ceremony on the whole school.

"""Students can pray, even in schools if they choose to do so. They can
pray during lunch-breaks, walking or being transported to and from the
school, and of course, during their free time. School prayer advocates
know this; but the real purpose of the prayer-in-school movement is to
either coerce everyone into joining in prayer and religious ritual, or
having official government sanction of religion. That is clearly wrong,
a violation of the separation of government and religion."""

Chuck Stevens

2005-12-16, 6:55 pm

"Judson McClendon" <judmc@sunvaley0.com> wrote in message
news:37Bof.31637$Y72.111@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
> When someone is exposed to the Gospel (Good News) of Jesus *and rejects
> it*, that rejected knowledge becomes a condemnation.

That rejection *we* as humans cannot judge. I think it takes more than
"exposure", it takes a deeper understanding. We are responsible for what
we *know*, not for what *somebody's told us*. A child who's been molested
will likely not react all that well to an insistence that he or she think of
climbing into Jesus' (or God the Father's, if you prefer) lap, and they are
not condemned for refusing to embrace the image.

And there's the previously-cited example of the man I knew who was molested
at the age of ten by his Baptist minister uncle, publically humiliated from
the pulpit, condemned personally by the minister as a spawn of Satan on the
following Sunday and physically thrown out the front door of the church and
down the steps as his parents watched. I do not believe he is accountable
for brushing the dirt off his clothes, never setting foot in a church again
and walking out of the room whenever the conversation turned to religious
topics, for the rest of his life. What he experienced was a large part of
his *understanding* of Christianity and Christian behavior, and I think it
*reasonable* of him to want no part of it.

> the memory of being told how to avoid it, and not believing.

Many people in my childhood kept raising the image of the bleeding Christ on
the cross, about how horrible the Crucifixion was, and kept reminding me
that every single misstep I made was another thorn that I had personally
hammered into His head.

I did not have an easy childhood. My father was an active alcoholic, and my
mother was an active uninstitutionalized paranoid-schizophrenic, and our
Yankee family was not well-liked in a small German Texas town. To this day
I do not relate to the Crucifixion. I'd have traded nine hours on the cross
for what I went through *in a heartbeat*.

> God has not told us exactly what the judgment will be of those who have
> never heard the Gospel.

*Judgment* is not necessarily *condemnation*. I don't believe God is so
petty that salvation boils down to a cosmic game of "Simon says ...".

> So everyone who does not accept the forgiveness provided by God's grace in
> Jesus, will receive punishment for their sins.

"Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven" (unlike the rest of you poor
ignorant schlubs!) ???

> We do not know when we will die and face God, and many people die every
> minute. So there really is an urgency about all this, spreading the
> Gospel, and receiving it.

The hubris comes in presuming that we're uniquely qualified to spread this
"good news" to any particular group, or any particular individual.

-Chuck Stevens

Oliver Wong

2005-12-16, 6:55 pm

"Judson McClendon" <judmc@sunvaley0.com> wrote in message
news:37Bof.31637$Y72.111@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
> "Oliver Wong" <owong@castortech.com> wrote:
>
> I've dealt with this before, in other posts. God is kind and loving. But
> He is also holy and just. God has given the evidence of His creation, the
> evidence of the Bible, the evidence of the testimony of Christians, and
> has given His Only Son to die in payment for the sins of a rebellious and
> sinful people. Those who choose to ignore all this are free to do so. But
> the Bible says "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living
> God." (Hebrews 10:31) Jesus Himself said "And do not fear those who kill
> the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to
> destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28) God loves us and Gave
> His Son so that we might be saved. We reject that Supreme Sacrifice to our
> extreme peril.

Even assuming that your beliefs are true (i.e. that God really did give
evidence in the bible, etc.), these native Indians have died without ever
encountering a Christian, and without ever having seen the bible. What about
all the people who lived before the bible was actually written? They did not
get to see any evidence.

>
>
> There is a certain validity to your point. When someone is exposed to the
> Gospel (Good News) of Jesus *and rejects it*, that rejected knowledge
> becomes a condemnation. Also, imagine spending an eternity of suffering
> with the memory of being told how to avoid it, and not believing. God has
> not told us exactly what the judgment will be of those who have never
> heard the Gospel. Apparently the severity of punishment will not be the
> same for everyone, for Jesus said "And that servant who knew his master's
> will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be
> beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things
> deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few." (Luke 12:47,48) But the
> Bible declares "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"
> (Romans 3:23). No one can stand before God sinless, unless their sins have
> been forgiven. So everyone who does not accept the forgiveness provided by
> God's grace in Jesus, will receive punishment for their sins. We do not
> know when we will die and face God, and many people die every minute. So
> there really is an urgency about all this, spreading the Gospel, and
> receiving it.

Again, assuming your beliefs are true, then you should ONLY share the
gospel with people who you expect will believe in it. In other words, BEFORE
spreading the gospel, get to know the person first. See if they are the type
who would likely believe in Christianity. If so, then by all means, share
the gospel with them. If not, then perhaps it's better you not mention it,
so that they may be beaten with few stripes rather than with many.

- Oliver

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