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Multilingual conversion - Ideas ?
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| PradeepR 2005-11-23, 3:55 am |
| Hello,
I am looking for, general solution ideas, regarding multilingual
conversion of existing applications. Once I get some idea then, may be,
I can go in for more detail.
I have got existing application written in ACUCOBOL running in SCO Unix
OS. The database is Flat Cobol files which have the facility of
indexing. Currently only English language is supported. All the screens
and reports are in English.
I am a COBOL guy with not much experience in OOPs/.NET.
Now, if I have to convert it to modern GUI based mulitilingual RDMS
system, where do I begin. I understand that this looks to be quite a
major exercise (I may be wrong!)
Any help with website links or approaches will also be appreciated.
Currently few thoughts that I have got are (Please feel free to point
any problems that these apporaches may have):
Approach 1
1. Convert Flat files to RDMS which has Unicode support. Is there some
tools available through which this can be done?
2. Convert the screen to modern .NET or Java
3. Keep the COBOL code at the middle tier to handle business logic
This will require major effort as I have to catch hold of .NET/Java
guys and think of how to convert existing Flat files. The other problem
is regarding Unix. How to make it talk to Unix.
Approach 2
1. Make an emulator which converts the english screen to different
language.
There will not be any code change, as only the screen will change to
show it in different language. This may slow down the system and I am
not sure if it is workable.
Approach 3
Scrap the current package and buy readymade products. This should be
easy but will lead to understanding the new package and make it
compatible with current requirements.
Thanks for your attention and for any ideas (if any). I hope this is
appropriate forum to ask this.
PNR
| |
| Vaclav Snajdr 2005-11-23, 3:55 am |
| Some ideas:
a) the Linux-brother of .NET is MONO and it is compatible
to .NET
b) keep the screen-contens out from Cobol-Code
I do it in ascii files. The priority of loading
is 1) user 2) user-group 3) company 4) standard of
software developer
The design of the screen will be read on the begin
of the modul. It costs no much time.
So you can have in a spanish company some people with
english or russian screen - no problem.
PradeepR wrote:
> Hello,
> I am looking for, general solution ideas, regarding multilingual
> conversion of existing applications. Once I get some idea then, may be,
> I can go in for more detail.
>
> I have got existing application written in ACUCOBOL running in SCO Unix
> OS. The database is Flat Cobol files which have the facility of
> indexing. Currently only English language is supported. All the screens
> and reports are in English.
>
> I am a COBOL guy with not much experience in OOPs/.NET.
> Now, if I have to convert it to modern GUI based mulitilingual RDMS
> system, where do I begin. I understand that this looks to be quite a
> major exercise (I may be wrong!)
> Any help with website links or approaches will also be appreciated.
>
> Currently few thoughts that I have got are (Please feel free to point
> any problems that these apporaches may have):
>
> Approach 1
>
> 1. Convert Flat files to RDMS which has Unicode support. Is there some
> tools available through which this can be done?
> 2. Convert the screen to modern .NET or Java
> 3. Keep the COBOL code at the middle tier to handle business logic
>
> This will require major effort as I have to catch hold of .NET/Java
> guys and think of how to convert existing Flat files. The other problem
> is regarding Unix. How to make it talk to Unix.
>
> Approach 2
>
> 1. Make an emulator which converts the english screen to different
> language.
>
> There will not be any code change, as only the screen will change to
> show it in different language. This may slow down the system and I am
> not sure if it is workable.
>
> Approach 3
>
> Scrap the current package and buy readymade products. This should be
> easy but will lead to understanding the new package and make it
> compatible with current requirements.
>
> Thanks for your attention and for any ideas (if any). I hope this is
> appropriate forum to ask this.
>
> PNR
--
Vaclav Snajdr
| |
| Alain Reymond 2005-11-23, 7:55 am |
| PradeepR a écrit :
> Hello,
> I am looking for, general solution ideas, regarding multilingual
> conversion of existing applications. Once I get some idea then, may be,
> I can go in for more detail.
>
> I have got existing application written in ACUCOBOL running in SCO Unix
> OS. The database is Flat Cobol files which have the facility of
> indexing. Currently only English language is supported. All the screens
> and reports are in English.
>
> I am a COBOL guy with not much experience in OOPs/.NET.
> Now, if I have to convert it to modern GUI based mulitilingual RDMS
> system, where do I begin. I understand that this looks to be quite a
> major exercise (I may be wrong!)
> Any help with website links or approaches will also be appreciated.
>
> Currently few thoughts that I have got are (Please feel free to point
> any problems that these apporaches may have):
>
> Approach 1
>
> 1. Convert Flat files to RDMS which has Unicode support. Is there some
> tools available through which this can be done?
> 2. Convert the screen to modern .NET or Java
> 3. Keep the COBOL code at the middle tier to handle business logic
>
> This will require major effort as I have to catch hold of .NET/Java
> guys and think of how to convert existing Flat files. The other problem
> is regarding Unix. How to make it talk to Unix.
>
> Approach 2
>
> 1. Make an emulator which converts the english screen to different
> language.
>
> There will not be any code change, as only the screen will change to
> show it in different language. This may slow down the system and I am
> not sure if it is workable.
>
> Approach 3
>
> Scrap the current package and buy readymade products. This should be
> easy but will lead to understanding the new package and make it
> compatible with current requirements.
>
> Thanks for your attention and for any ideas (if any). I hope this is
> appropriate forum to ask this.
>
> PNR
>
If you are working with Acucobol, they have an interesting product
(although I do not use it!) which is Acucobol-GT. It gives you all the
GUI possibilities you need according to their brochure, even a thin
client solution.
You have many possibilities according to what you intend to do :
- you can create a kind of ini file where you put all the messages in
the different languages with on section for each language or create a
file for each language with all messages.
This is a very common solution.
in english.lng, you will put :
; *** Buttons
ButtonBack=< &Back
ButtonNext=&Next >
ButtonInstall=&Install
ButtonOK=OK
ButtonCancel=Cancel
ButtonYes=&Yes
ButtonYesToAll=Yes to &All
ButtonNo=&No
in french.lng :
; *** Buttons
ButtonBack=< &Précédent
ButtonNext=&Suivant >
ButtonInstall=&Installer
ButtonOK=OK
ButtonCancel=Annuler
ButtonYes=&Oui
ButtonYesToAll=Oui pour &Tout
ButtonNo=&Non
You can ask the user for his language at the time of installation or
dynamically.
- you can create one screen per language and ask the user which language
he wants and choose the correct screen to display.
Concerning RDBMS.
If Acucobol can connect to SQL databases, you can choose to put the data
in the RDBMS and keep the business rules in Cobol. If Acucobol has an
ODBC connection to his Isam filesystem, you can choose to keep the data
in the Acucobol Isam and access them from Windows using ODBC. This is
useful for connection with existing packages.
There are many possibilities. It depends on the choices you will make
according to the desires of your company.
Regards.
Alain
| |
| Alistair 2005-11-23, 6:55 pm |
| Possible solutions:
1. set an indicator and use that to determine which version of the
screen to output to the user.
2. Rewrite in Java. Then, when correcting the errors, rewite again in
Java.
3. Obtain a single user copy of Natural 6 Personal Productivity Package
from Software AG (see their German offices web site at Darmstadt for
the sign-up page) and use their multi-lingual facility (which is an
easier to implement version of option 1). They use indicators to set
the language and automate choosing the correct screen. The other
advantage is that the coding is similar to Cobol so the learning curve
is reduced. Note, Natural comes with Adabas (an inverted list database)
which should meet all of your needs. (I nearly put in pseudo-relational
but then DD would have skelped my arse!). Natural also has a modern GUI
dialog facility so that you can make your windows look pretty.
4. Buy in the software package that does it all already. This is
probably easiest. Other than option 5 that is.
5. Do nothing.
PradeepR wrote:
> Hello,
> I am looking for, general solution ideas, regarding multilingual
> conversion of existing applications. Once I get some idea then, may be,
> I can go in for more detail.
>
> I have got existing application written in ACUCOBOL running in SCO Unix
> OS. The database is Flat Cobol files which have the facility of
> indexing. Currently only English language is supported. All the screens
> and reports are in English.
>
> I am a COBOL guy with not much experience in OOPs/.NET.
> Now, if I have to convert it to modern GUI based mulitilingual RDMS
> system, where do I begin. I understand that this looks to be quite a
> major exercise (I may be wrong!)
> Any help with website links or approaches will also be appreciated.
>
> Currently few thoughts that I have got are (Please feel free to point
> any problems that these apporaches may have):
>
> Approach 1
>
> 1. Convert Flat files to RDMS which has Unicode support. Is there some
> tools available through which this can be done?
> 2. Convert the screen to modern .NET or Java
> 3. Keep the COBOL code at the middle tier to handle business logic
>
> This will require major effort as I have to catch hold of .NET/Java
> guys and think of how to convert existing Flat files. The other problem
> is regarding Unix. How to make it talk to Unix.
>
> Approach 2
>
> 1. Make an emulator which converts the english screen to different
> language.
>
> There will not be any code change, as only the screen will change to
> show it in different language. This may slow down the system and I am
> not sure if it is workable.
>
> Approach 3
>
> Scrap the current package and buy readymade products. This should be
> easy but will lead to understanding the new package and make it
> compatible with current requirements.
>
> Thanks for your attention and for any ideas (if any). I hope this is
> appropriate forum to ask this.
>
> PNR
| |
| James J. Gavan 2005-11-23, 6:55 pm |
| PradeepR wrote:
> Hello,
> I am looking for, general solution ideas, regarding multilingual
> conversion of existing applications. Once I get some idea then, may be,
> I can go in for more detail.
>
Seems to me you've got some neat replies already. Alistair's reply about
the German firm might fit, plus an extension of Alain's suggestion.
But tip #1 - don't ever use something like Babelfish to translate for
you ! Somebody in UK tried that. His girl friend looked over his
shoulder when he had problems and suggested he get a professional
translator.
Just as important as your translation is, you also have to take into
account cultural differences. Some while back, not computing, but saw
where some 'household' product names just didn't make it in the Third
World - the translations were either hilarious or offensive in
particular countries.
The cultural thing - ever watch the movie 'Black Hawk Down', the
disastrous event with US Marines in Somalia. Doesn't come across in the
movie but did in the PBS documentary. Crowded into helicopters, some of
the marines had their feet dangling out of the sides. An absolute No-No
in Somalia - this was like giving somebody the finger. The watching
Somalis on the ground below, incensed, took off their slippers/shoes and
held them up to the Americans - giving them the finger back !
Both the UN and EU have teams of translators, so check perhaps what
connections your particular country has, and what translation services
are available - at a cost of course.
Never been an immediate problem for me but I tend to see it as a
repository of messages, per language. If GUI-ing then of course you want
your messageboxes to be clear and accurate - come up with a common
routine for messaging and jump off to a particular language file to
STRING that country's text to be fed to the messagebox. The other area
is labelling in Dialogs. Normally considered 'static' - but give your
labels an ID, and again you jump to the appropriate language file for
the translation for the label. Now if you get into Gr , Russian
character sets, now you have another problem - and I wouldn't know where
to start.
Let's just check out of curiosity - Alain, assuming something was
written in French by somebody in Quebec, any chance it would be
hilarious when viewed in France or Belgium ?
Quite some while back I was doing something with OO and Dates and wanted
tables per language. I checked with Volker in Germany - seems there are
two versions of the word Saturday, a different one being used in the
south. Further, Volker wouldn't commit to what the translation would be
for day-names for Austria !
Jimmy, Calgary AB
| |
| Oliver Wong 2005-11-23, 6:55 pm |
|
"James J. Gavan" <jgavandeletethis@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:fX1hf.587004$tl2.527860@pd7tw3no...
>
> Just as important as your translation is, you also have to take into
> account cultural differences. Some while back, not computing, but saw
> where some 'household' product names just didn't make it in the Third
> World - the translations were either hilarious or offensive in particular
> countries.
Anecdote off the top of my head (no citation available): some Microsoft
product localized for Spanish had a set of radio buttons asking if the user
was "male" or "XXXXX".
>
> Let's just check out of curiosity - Alain, assuming something was written
> in French by somebody in Quebec, any chance it would be hilarious when
> viewed in France or Belgium ?
I learned France's French, but live in Quebec. AFAIK, there aren't
really any terms that mean something in one dialect and something else in
the other (e.g. Nothing like "fag" which means cigarette in British English
and homosexual in American English). Usually, they'll be terms that exist in
one dialect and "don't exist" in the other, though usually people will be
able to guess what you meant. Quebec French, for example, borrows a lot of
English terms like "Wend", which the France French call "Fin de Semain"
(literally "end of the w").
- Oliver
| |
|
| In article <yy2hf.133162$yS6.12493@clgrps12>,
Oliver Wong <owong@castortech.com> wrote:
>
>"James J. Gavan" <jgavandeletethis@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>news:fX1hf.587004$tl2.527860@pd7tw3no...
>
> Anecdote off the top of my head (no citation available): some Microsoft
>product localized for Spanish had a set of radio buttons asking if the user
>was "male" or "XXXXX".
A nice bit of debunking follows... but... from
http://spanish.about.com/cs/culture/a/chevy_nova.htm :
--begin quoted text:
It strains credibility to believe that a company as large as General
Motors, with marketing executives and other employees and contacts
throughout the world, wouldn't be aware of a negative meaning of a product
name.
--end quoted text
This fellow has Great Faith in how corporations work. The page at
http://www.snopes.com/business/misxlate/nova.asp makes similar arguments:
--begin quoted text:
Assuming that Spanish speakers would naturally see the word 'nova' as
equivalent to the phrase 'no va' and think 'Hey, this car doesn't go!' is
akin to assuming that English speakers woud spurn a dinette set sold under
the name Notable because nobody wants a dinette set that doesn't include a
table.
--end quoted text
.... but does not assume 'They're rich, so they must be smart!'
DD
| |
| Oliver Wong 2005-11-23, 6:55 pm |
|
"PradeepR" <pradeep.ravle@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1132728046.622224.313600@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Approach 2
>
> 1. Make an emulator which converts the english screen to different
> language.
>
> There will not be any code change, as only the screen will change to
> show it in different language. This may slow down the system and I am
> not sure if it is workable.
While this may work in your specific case, this will not work in
general. Translation of phrases between different languages is not
nescessarily one to one; the correct terms to use in one language may differ
depending on the context whereas in other languages the context won't
matter.
Don't know if this is the best example, but the one that pops into my
mind is that when asking a question in the form of a negative (e.g. "You
don't want the apple?"), in North American culture, "Yes" means that answer
is the equivalent statement stated in the affirmative (i.e. "Yes, I want the
apple.") whereas in Japanese culture, "Yes" means that the original
statement is correct (i.e. "Yes, I don't want the apple.") In other words,
sometimes "conceptual yes" gets translated to "literal yes", and other times
"conceptual yes" gets translated to "literal no" between languages.
If you haven't written localized applications before, there are a few
gotchas to watch out for. For one thing, the string lengths can differ
significantly between languages, so you have to reserve extra room for
labels and buttons and less the string gets truncated.
Messages which are constructed by appending multiple pieces together are
tricky because the ordering of terms might need to be reordered, because of
differing phrase structures.
Language A: userName + " has " + numFoo + " foo(s)."
Language B: numFoo + " foo(s) is had by " + userName + "."
Different locals have different standard formats for dates and numbers.
In some locales, numbers are listed with digits in groups of size 3 seperate
by spaces. Other locales, the groups might be seperated by commas or
apostrophes. Other locales might have the digits in groups of size 4.
You might want to read this document:
http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/i18n/index.html
It's a tutorial for writing an internationalized Java application, but
the first few sections are an introduction to internationalizing in general,
and not specific to Java. In particular, the document includes a checklist
of things to watch out for:
http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tuto.../checklist.html
The later sections start diving into specific Java code, which may be
less useful to you, but you might still want to read them to get ideas of
implementations or designs.
- Oliver
| |
|
| In article <dm2d5f$a7f$1@reader2.panix.com>, <docdwarf@panix.com> wrote:
[snip]
>This fellow has Great Faith in how corporations work. The page at
>http://www.snopes.com/business/misxlate/nova.asp makes similar arguments:
[snip]
>... but does not assume 'They're rich, so they must be smart!'
Gah... my error and apologies. From the same page:
--begin quoted text:
This legend assumes that a handful of General Motors executives launched a
car into a foreign market and remained in blissful ignorance about a
possible adverse translation of its name.
--end quoted text
I just didn't read far enough.
DD
| |
| Howard Brazee 2005-11-23, 6:55 pm |
| On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:29:50 GMT, "Oliver Wong" <owong@castortech.com>
wrote:
> I learned France's French, but live in Quebec. AFAIK, there aren't
>really any terms that mean something in one dialect and something else in
>the other (e.g. Nothing like "fag" which means cigarette in British English
>and homosexual in American English). Usually, they'll be terms that exist in
>one dialect and "don't exist" in the other, though usually people will be
>able to guess what you meant. Quebec French, for example, borrows a lot of
>English terms like "Wend", which the France French call "Fin de Semain"
>(literally "end of the w").
Most of the stories we have about terms translating funny (Chevy
Nova), are non-stories. In this case Spanish speakers are just as
aware of the Latin "nova" as English speakers. Sure we have the
Beavis and Butthead's of the world that can find hidden meanings in
what we say - but most of us don't even think about these - we just
use the language we have.
The other day I listened to a couple of minutes of a Navaho language
broadcast of a NFL game. It was fun to hear the English language
terms being used. Or hang around a bi-lingual family talking in
bi-lingual sentences. Heck, languages such as English and Yiddish
are obviously mixtures of other known languages.
| |
|
| In article <s4e9o11ksb7p37tooj08vbmisnjtsa4eco@4ax.com>,
Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> wrote:
[snip]
>The other day I listened to a couple of minutes of a Navaho language
>broadcast of a NFL game. It was fun to hear the English language
>terms being used.
A few decades back a comedy show on New Jersey Public Television, the
Uncle Floyd Show, did a sketch called 'Foreign Language Program' based
almost entirely on this premise; a fellow sat behind a desk and issued a
stream of gibberish punctuated with English phrases, like 'N'goozh buszh
woozh d'muszh, White Pigeon Meats... izh di galeep, da vronki Patterson,
New Yersey'
DD
| |
|
|
| Howard Brazee 2005-11-23, 6:55 pm |
| On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:43:55 GMT, "Oliver Wong" <owong@castortech.com>
wrote:
> Different locals have different standard formats for dates and numbers.
>In some locales, numbers are listed with digits in groups of size 3 seperate
>by spaces. Other locales, the groups might be seperated by commas or
>apostrophes. Other locales might have the digits in groups of size 4.
Above all, avoid putting a date of 05/06/07. Different cultures put
months first or days first. Ambiguity can be avoided.
| |
|
| In article <43g9o1pekfujdeb0qlkftuqks7j0m0e082@4ax.com>,
Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:43:55 GMT, "Oliver Wong" <owong@castortech.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>Above all, avoid putting a date of 05/06/07. Different cultures put
>months first or days first. Ambiguity can be avoided.
What ambiguity... that's July 6th, 2005, right?
DD
| |
| Chuck Stevens 2005-11-23, 6:55 pm |
|
<docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:dm2h5g$hd3$1@reader2.panix.com...
>
> What ambiguity... that's July 6th, 2005, right?
Of course. Anyone who might think otherwise has to be out of his mind!
;-)
-Chuck Stevens
| |
| Howard Brazee 2005-11-23, 6:55 pm |
| On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:03:51 -0800, "Chuck Stevens"
<charles.stevens@unisys.com> wrote:
>
>Of course. Anyone who might think otherwise has to be out of his mind!
>;-)
A.D. or B.C. ???
| |
| Rick Smith 2005-11-23, 6:55 pm |
|
"Chuck Stevens" <charles.stevens@unisys.com> wrote in message
news:dm2hv8$138c$1@si05.rsvl.unisys.com...
>
> <docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message
news:dm2h5g$hd3$1@reader2.panix.com...
>
>
> Of course. Anyone who might think otherwise has to be out of his mind!
> ;-)
I saw it as increasing levels of detail that is
bilingual: year.month.day (for C) or
SEVENTH OF JUNE IN 2005 (for COBOL).
I have a method to *my* madness. <g>
| |
| Chuck Stevens 2005-11-23, 6:55 pm |
|
"Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net> wrote in message
news:fdj9o1d311gd52ad2idh2hcjaqimtt0njq@
4ax.com...
> On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:03:51 -0800, "Chuck Stevens"
> <charles.stevens@unisys.com> wrote:
>
>
> A.D. or B.C. ???
Well, heck. Everybody knows there are no meaningful dates before 00:00AM on
January 1, 1601 AD and that no earlier date could possibly be meaningful.
Otherwise, the date-to-integer and integer-to-date intrinsic functions
couldn't work right. ;-)
-Chuck Stevens
| |
| Howard Brazee 2005-11-23, 6:55 pm |
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On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 15:28:15 -0500, "Rick Smith" <ricksmith@mfi.net>
wrote:
>I saw it as increasing levels of detail that is
>bilingual: year.month.day (for C) or
>SEVENTH OF JUNE IN 2005 (for COBOL).
>
>I have a method to *my* madness. <g>
When I was in the Air Force, we had to log our flights as 20 JUN 76
(or maybe 20 JUN 1976, it was a while ago). At the time it was
unambiguous.
It is interesting that while some societies had different calendars
that have stayed alive with the dominance of the Western (Can't really
call it "Christian", when Orthadox Christians have a different one)
calendar. But nobody uses a base 10 clock. Even the Navy clock
using bells is just a variation of the 24 hour clock.
Sumarians had 30 part days. Egypt had water clocks in BC times,
China had clock at least one clock tower a millennium years ago (I
have no idea how days were divided then), but I guess nobody cared
about precise times until they clocks were invented that good enough
for naval navigation.
Too bad midnight is 12:00 everywhere though. China is one time zone
- I wish the world was.
I know of someone who received an e-mail that set up an appointment in
Outlook to meet his bosses in Seatle. He flew over there and was an
hour late, as Outlook translated the time so he could do a phone
interview in Colorado. Microsoft products often out-guesses its
users.
| |
| Chuck Stevens 2005-11-23, 6:55 pm |
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"Rick Smith" <ricksmith@mfi.net> wrote in message
news:11o9k7el8iq6649@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Chuck Stevens" <charles.stevens@unisys.com> wrote in message
> news:dm2hv8$138c$1@si05.rsvl.unisys.com...
> news:dm2h5g$hd3$1@reader2.panix.com...
>
> I saw it as increasing levels of detail that is
> bilingual: year.month.day (for C) or
> SEVENTH OF JUNE IN 2005 (for COBOL).
>
> I have a method to *my* madness. <g>
>
Well, hey, I *could* misinterpret it just as methodically as May 6, 2007,
but ISO 8601:2000 would probably misinterpret it methodically the same way
you did ... ;-)
-Chuck Stevens
| |
| Chuck Stevens 2005-11-23, 6:55 pm |
| "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net> wrote in message
news:gsk9o19d4okb80aj4i9b1b6dm62j7u9gd8@
4ax.com...
> But nobody uses a base 10 clock.
As far as I know, you're correct -- unless you're looking at a clock built
according to Revolutionary Time as established in France by decree of the
National Convention on November 24, 1793.
In Revolutionary Time there were 100 seconds in each minute, 100 minutes in
each hour, and 10 hours in each day. Manufacturers balked at building
clocks according to this system, and most that use it also show "regular"
60/60/24 time on the dials as well.
France changed its calendar to the Republican Calendar at the same time (I
won't go into the details).
Republican Time became optional for clockmakers and watchmakers on August
22, 1794 (about eighteen months after the original decree); both it and the
Republican Calendar were abolished by Napoleon on January 1, 1806.
-Chuck Stevens
| |
| Rick Smith 2005-11-23, 6:55 pm |
|
"Chuck Stevens" <charles.stevens@unisys.com> wrote in message
news:dm2nkg$16oq$1@si05.rsvl.unisys.com...
>
> "Rick Smith" <ricksmith@mfi.net> wrote in message
> news:11o9k7el8iq6649@corp.supernews.com...
>
> Well, hey, I *could* misinterpret it just as methodically as May 6, 2007,
> but ISO 8601:2000 would probably misinterpret it methodically the same way
> you did ... ;-)
No, ISO 8601:2000 does not use the 'solidus' in
truncated representations. So *my* method is
non-conforming. <g>
-----begin quote
4.5 Use of separators
[/] (solidus): to separate the two components in the
representation of time-intervals or recurring time-intervals.
5.2.1.3 Truncated representations
If, by agreement, truncated representations are used the
basic formats shall be as specified below. In each case
hyphens that indicate omitted components shall be used
only as indicated or shall be omitted.
a) A specific date in the implied century
Basic format: YYMMDD EXAMPLE 850412
Extended format: YY-MM-DD EXAMPLE 85-04-12
-----end quote
| |
| Judson McClendon 2005-11-23, 6:55 pm |
| I really would like to see date formats standardized to year, month and day
at least, whether 2 or 4 digit year, and with or without slashes, virgules,
dashes, hyphens or solidus. :-)
--
Judson McClendon judmc@sunvaley0.com (remove zero)
Sun Valley Systems http://sunvaley.com
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
| |
| James J. Gavan 2005-11-23, 6:55 pm |
| Oliver Wong wrote:
> "James J. Gavan" <jgavandeletethis@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:fX1hf.587004$tl2.527860@pd7tw3no...
>
>
>
> Anecdote off the top of my head (no citation available): some Microsoft
> product localized for Spanish had a set of radio buttons asking if the user
> was "male" or "XXXXX".
I liked that one Oliver :-). I can't recall entries, but that was the
sort of point made in the newspaper article. I wasn't specific enough
about the Somali problem - but it is showing the SOLES of your feet
which is offensive. God knows what happens in Saudi Arabia when you
offer somebody food with the wrong hand ! They aren't averse to using a
sword down there - chances are they chop your hand off.
Recently bought a package of noodles made in Taiwan. So for us Canucks
the label was bilingual - and like so many 'Anglos' having learned
French at school in UK never pursued it. In total have spent 6 hours in
France - fifty years ago. So given a set of instructions in both English
and French, I'd guarantee that the directions didn't match. With a
little bit of fractured English going on for starters, something like
"Put to the pot boil".
>
>
>
>
> I learned France's French, but live in Quebec. AFAIK, there aren't
> really any terms that mean something in one dialect and something else in
> the other (e.g. Nothing like "fag" which means cigarette in British English
> and homosexual in American English). Usually, they'll be terms that exist in
> one dialect and "don't exist" in the other, though usually people will be
> able to guess what you meant. Quebec French, for example, borrows a lot of
> English terms like "Wend", which the France French call "Fin de Semain"
> (literally "end of the w").
Ahh. La belle province. Not too far from me, but far enough not to nip
across for a cuppa and a chat. I'd already picked up on your English
spelling, 'labour' rather than 'labor'. Yes, in perfide Albion, a 'fag'
is a 'smoke'; but again there is the word 'faggot' - original meaning
bunches of wood for fires for heating, or burning the odd heretic or two
back in the ME. But used as slang 'faggot' = homosexual.
I think the Acadamie Francaise is on a losing battle trying to cut out
all the anglicisms, like le striptease, and didn't they have le wend
in France ?
Why I went looking I don't know - but browsed comp.java.help and see you
dispensing advice. So care to give me some input on Java Factory - I'll
post as a separate topic later as "OO Factory".
Jimmy, Calgary AB
| |
| Chuck Stevens 2005-11-23, 6:55 pm |
| Well, you *can* get to the unedited data (with or without the century) using
Function CURRENT-DATE and reference modification (or, with the century, just
MOVE the result to an eight-character item). Once you've got the unedited
data, you can use STRING and more reference modification (or, for slashes,
MOVE into an item with an edited PICTURE) to produce the fancy output.
And presuming your vendor's produced one that's compliant with the 2008
draft, you can also use Function LOCALE-DATE ...
ISO 8601:2002 formats acceptable to COBOL74 allow hyphens between the date
components, but not virgule/slash/solidus. ;-)
-Chuck Stevens
"Judson McClendon" <judmc@sunvaley0.com> wrote in message
news:uR5hf.16543$s92.4598@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>I really would like to see date formats standardized to year, month and day
>at least, whether 2 or 4 digit year, and with or without slashes, virgules,
>dashes, hyphens or solidus. :-)
> --
> Judson McClendon judmc@sunvaley0.com (remove zero)
> Sun Valley Systems http://sunvaley.com
> "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that
> whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
>
| |
| Oliver Wong 2005-11-23, 6:55 pm |
|
"James J. Gavan" <jgavandeletethis@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:s36hf.587295$1i.423315@pd7tw2no...
> Recently bought a package of noodles made in Taiwan. So for us Canucks the
> label was bilingual - and like so many 'Anglos' having learned French at
> school in UK never pursued it. In total have spent 6 hours in France -
> fifty years ago. So given a set of instructions in both English and
> French, I'd guarantee that the directions didn't match. With a little bit
> of fractured English going on for starters, something like "Put to the pot
> boil".
I've been in restaurants where the menus were poorly translates so that
French speaking people had a different set of choices than English speaking.
French (translated): "Choose between string beans OR rice, and between soup
OR salad."
English : "Choose any two of the following: string beans, rice, soup, salad,
potato."
Not only did we (I consider myself to be more English than French) have
far more flexibility in our choice of side dishes, we also had the
opportunity to have potato, which the French apparently weren't allowed to
choose.
> I think the Acadamie Francaise is on a losing battle trying to cut out all
> the anglicisms, like le striptease, and didn't they have le wend in
> France ?
I think the AF is having the most problem with technological terms.
It'll usually be a few months or years between when a term is invented (e.g.
"peer to peer") in English, and when the AF gets around to coming up with a
French translation. By the time they do, everyone (including the French)
have already got the English term firmly ingrained in their mind that the
French terms sound ridiculous.
As I mentioned, if you say "wend" to a person from France, they'll
probably be able to guess what you mean, but AFAIK the preferred term there
is "fin de semain".
> Why I went looking I don't know - but browsed comp.java.help and see you
> dispensing advice. So care to give me some input on Java Factory - I'll
> post as a separate topic later as "OO Factory".
Sure. I'm assuming this question is about the Factory design pattern
from the Gang of Four.
- Oliver
| |
|
| In article <s36hf.587295$1i.423315@pd7tw2no>,
James J. Gavan <jgavandeletethis@shaw.ca> wrote:
[snip]
>With a
>little bit of fractured English going on for starters, something like
>"Put to the pot boil".
With a stern admonition of 'their English is probably better than your
(language)' I now must offer: http://www.engrish.com/ .
DD
| |
|
| In article <fdj9o1d311gd52ad2idh2hcjaqimtt0njq@4ax.com>,
Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:03:51 -0800, "Chuck Stevens"
><charles.stevens@unisys.com> wrote:
>
>
>A.D. or B.C. ???
I'm not sure I know the difference between 'out of his mind A.D.' and 'out
of his mind B.C.'... perhaps someone from Vancouver might know.
DD
| |
| James J. Gavan 2005-11-23, 6:55 pm |
| Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:43:55 GMT, "Oliver Wong" <owong@castortech.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Above all, avoid putting a date of 05/06/07. Different cultures put
> months first or days first. Ambiguity can be avoided.
So Oliver, to your knowledge, anything wrong in Asia going with the ISO
Date Standard ? When an 'Anglo' speaker is thinking 'translate' he is
basing his thinking probably on European languages. But of course,
products do get sold East of Suez :-)
ccyymmdd = 2005 Nov 24, 2005 November 24, 2005/11/24, 2005-11-24 ad
nauseum.....
For somebody with different translations in N. America or Europe they
could run into problems with straight numerics, but not if 'visually' it
contains a month name. And we are not asking the citizens of London or
Paris to change their thinking, but perhaps 4 folks in a small company,
perhaps 50 in a larger organisation. Selling job involved here , "If you
learn to appreciate the ISO format mon frere, you will observe how
effective it is to put things in logical sequence". You don't have to
tell them that reluctantly you can do it so that it shows the way they
have been doing it for the past four generations !
Above contains 'visuals' for a user but if stored as an ISO Date, it
goes without saying the numeric values give a logical sort key.
Jimmy, Calgary AB
| |
| James J. Gavan 2005-11-23, 6:55 pm |
| Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:03:51 -0800, "Chuck Stevens"
> <charles.stevens@unisys.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> A.D. or B.C. ???
As Richard might write if he was based in Israel, "Please do keep up -
it's BCE". Not quite sure what they do with 'AD'.
| |
| Rick Smith 2005-11-23, 9:55 pm |
|
"James J. Gavan" <jgavandeletethis@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:jP7hf.594171$tl2.399169@pd7tw3no...
> Howard Brazee wrote:
[snip]
>
> As Richard might write if he was based in Israel, "Please do keep up -
> it's BCE". Not quite sure what they do with 'AD'.
Jimmy, since you apparently like hints,
instead of answers. B.C.E. means
before Common Era.
And, AFAIK, it is not directly related
to Israel.
| |
| Richard 2005-11-23, 9:55 pm |
| > As Richard might write if he was based in Israel, "Please do keep up -
> it's BCE". Not quite sure what they do with 'AD'.
Actually I wouldn't have. If I was based in Israel I would know that
AD/BC/BCE is meaningless and that the year is 5766.
| |
| James J. Gavan 2005-11-23, 9:55 pm |
| Rick Smith wrote:
> "James J. Gavan" <jgavandeletethis@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:jP7hf.594171$tl2.399169@pd7tw3no...
>
>
> [snip]
>
>
>
> Jimmy, since you apparently like hints,
> instead of answers. B.C.E. means
> before Common Era.
>
> And, AFAIK, it is not directly related
> to Israel.
C'mon Rick I KNEW what the BCE stood for :-). Do they have a substitute
for AD or just ignore Anno Domini altogether.
I suggested Israel because that's the only place I've heard/seen it
used. Probably got the name spelling wrong but Eban Eban a S. African
who was one of their respected politicians, at one time Foreign Minister
I believe - He did a series on the Israelites, or rather (AD), the Jews
and their involvement with the Islamic conquest of N. Africa leading
into Spain. They weren't warriors but scientists and philosophers who
contributed to the Islamic culture. Date-wise he consistently used the
term BCE where references applied.
Second, more recently, on another channel, a N. American Jew, who is
into history and archeology, somewhat tongue-in-ch, covers biblical
events quizzing light-heartedly experts in their field in Israel, plus
of course footage of sites being talked about. Just don't remember the
program's title. But again he pointedly uses BCE.
Bearing in mind Jews had to be very circumspect about Christ way back to
the time of at least Richard I (Lion Heart). Ever read Sir Walter
Scott's "Ivanhoe". Movie version, the then young and glorious Elizabeth
Taylor, with those incredibly blue eyes, played the Jewish heroine
Rebbecca, up against her namesake, Robert Taylor playing Ivanhoe. The
thinking in Christianity at the time was that money ending was sinful.
Well the idea didn't hurt new Jewish arrivals any, and naturally they
did expect back an interest rate. So they became the banks for the noble
knights who wanted to shoot off and do their thing in the two Cru es.
The Jewish merchants, frugal in their trade, accumulated some wealth.
Overtime of course, some became very wealthy - but not all. Think of the
Jewish communities working hard at farming during the days of Imperial
Russia - "Fiddler on the Roof", Barbra Streisand and 'Yentl'. (Nope -
don't have all these tucked up my sleeve - remembered Babs and had to go
googling to get the movie and correct spelling)
Over time the Christians throughout Europe became resentful of these
intruders who didn't worship Christ. That far back were the seeds of
anti-Semitism sown. And we all know where that tragically led to - and
just as you say on your Veterans' Day or our 'British group' Remembrance
Day, "Lest we forget.....".
Now it's almost like they, the modern Israelites, are saying, "Serve you
bastards right for imposing Dachau, Auschwitz etc., on us as a people.
We'll getcha - it's BCE from now on. Keep your Jesus, even though the
man was one of us".
Jimmy
| |
| Rick Smith 2005-11-23, 9:55 pm |
|
"James J. Gavan" <jgavandeletethis@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:B7ahf.587971$oW2.326367@pd7tw1no...
> Rick Smith wrote:
>
> C'mon Rick I KNEW what the BCE stood for :-). Do they have a substitute
> for AD or just ignore Anno Domini altogether.
C.E., which, depending on source, means either
Common Era or Christian Era.
| |
| PradeepR 2005-11-24, 3:55 am |
| Everyone,
Thank you for detailed ideas and all the comments. Oliver's comment on
male/XXXXX was really funny.
As this is at very inital stages, it does give me something to chew on.
PNR
| |
| Judson McClendon 2005-11-24, 6:55 pm |
| "James J. Gavan" <jgavandeletethis@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> Bearing in mind Jews had to be very circumspect about Christ way back to
> the time of at least Richard I (Lion Heart). Ever read Sir Walter Scott's
> "Ivanhoe". Movie version, the then young and glorious Elizabeth Taylor,
> with those incredibly blue eyes, played the Jewish heroine Rebbecca, up
> against her namesake, Robert Taylor playing Ivanhoe. The thinking in
> Christianity at the time was that money ending was sinful. Well the idea
> didn't hurt new Jewish arrivals any, and naturally they did expect back an
> interest rate. So they became the banks for the noble knights who wanted
> to shoot off and do their thing in the two Crues.
>
> The Jewish merchants, frugal in their trade, accumulated some wealth.
> Overtime of course, some became very wealthy - but not all. Think of the
> Jewish communities working hard at farming during the days of Imperial
> Russia - "Fiddler on the Roof", Barbra Streisand and 'Yentl'. (Nope -
> don't have all these tucked up my sleeve - remembered Babs and had to go
> googling to get the movie and correct spelling)
>
> Over time the Christians throughout Europe became resentful of these
> intruders who didn't worship Christ. That far back were the seeds of
> anti-Semitism sown. And we all know where that tragically led to - and
> just as you say on your Veterans' Day or our 'British group' Remembrance
> Day, "Lest we forget.....".
Animosity between Christians and Jews is much older than that, Jimmy. From
the latter part of Jesus ministry, He and His disciples had to avoid the
Jewish authorities, most of whom who saw Jesus as a heretic and trouble
maker, though the common Jews received Him gladly. The New Testament clearly
depicts the early Christians (who were all Jews, until Peter visited
Cornelius and the first Gentiles received the Holy Spirit), being persecuted
by Jewish (as well as secular and and other religious) authorities,
including Saul, whose name was changed to Paul when he had his encounter
with the resurrected Jesus and became a Christian himself; eventually
penning most of the New Testament. After Constantine made Christianity the
official religion of the Roman Empire, resulting in "being Christian"
becoming popular, many "Christians" used the Temple Mount (Herod's Temple
had been destroyed in 70AD by the Roman general Titus) as an outhouse, out
of resentment for the persecution they had received from the Jews. We modern
Christians (particularly Protestants) view that particular practice as
grievously abhorrent, and love the Jews as God's Chosen People, from whom
came our Savior.
--
Judson McClendon judmc@sunvaley0.com (remove zero)
Sun Valley Systems http://sunvaley.com
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
| |
| Judson McClendon 2005-11-24, 6:55 pm |
| Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant that I would like to see dates written in
year, month, day order across the board - in print and practice, across
cultures, etc. :-)
I've begun to do this myself in writing checks and so forth, using a 4 digit
year so as to be as clear as possible. I do it all the time, except when a
specific format is indicated. On retrospect, it seems kind of nutty that any
other form was ever proposed.
You linguists out there - in languages written right to left, are numbers
written with highest order on the right also? In ancient Hebrew, where
numbers are encoded using letters, I think this is the case. Anyone know of
a language which uses Arabic digits and writes them right to left?
--
Judson McClendon judmc@sunvaley0.com (remove zero)
Sun Valley Systems http://sunvaley.com
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
| |
| Oliver Wong 2005-11-24, 6:55 pm |
| "James J. Gavan" <jgavandeletethis@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:SK7hf.594161$tl2.451888@pd7tw3no...
>
> So Oliver, to your knowledge, anything wrong in Asia going with the ISO
> Date Standard ? When an 'Anglo' speaker is thinking 'translate' he is
> basing his thinking probably on European languages. But of course,
> products do get sold East of Suez :-)
>
> ccyymmdd = 2005 Nov 24, 2005 November 24, 2005/11/24, 2005-11-24 ad
> nauseum.....
I really don't know much about what calendars and date/formats are used
in Asia, or anywhere else in the world for that matter. I heard, for
example, that there's a "Buddhist Calendar", but I have no idea how often it
is used, if at all.
According to this Microsoft guide on globalization ...
http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/...s/wrg_date.mspx
... the Japanese, at least, seem to be using a "year, month, day" order
when using the Gregorian calendar (that's the calendar we North Americans
typically use). I believe the Japanese also have their own calendar, where
each era (our equivalent to eras would be "BC" and "AD") changes relatively
frequently (I believe it changes every time a new Emperor is crowned or
something like that). My Japanese friends seem to be able to use both the
Japanese calendar and the Gregorian calendar, and can switch between the two
with relative ease.
Can't really comment on any of the other Asian calendars listed on that
page (Taiwainese, Korean, Thai, etc.) as I don't know anything about them.
I think your best bet, if you want to make your software globally
accessible, is to store your dates in some internally well defined format
(doesn't matter what the format is; it could internally be stored as
Gregorian; or as number of days since 1970, January 1st; or any other
system) and then have various functions which, given a date in this internal
format, return a string representing the format in the given locale (e.g.
"toGregorianCalendarString()", "toJapaneseCalendarString()", etc.) That's
approximately the interface that the Java and .NET code libaries provide
(except that they have hooks into the OS to detect the appropriate locale
automatically).
- Oliver
| |
| Judson McClendon 2005-11-24, 6:55 pm |
| One calendar that is highly standardized, though the use is narrow, is the
Julian Calendar used by astronomers. Dates are represented as a decimal
number of days, and the decimal fraction represents the part of day since
the previous day. The date changes at noon, so an integer Julian Date would
be a date at precisely noon. J.D. 0 = Noon on Monday January 1, 4713 BC
(Julian Calendar) = Noon on Monday, November 24, 4713 BC (Gregorian
Calendar). Apparently this makes astronomical calculations easier, and is
used by astronomers worldwide, AFAIK.
I have a book "Calendrical Calculations" by Nachum Dershowitz & Edward M.
Reingold, Cambridge University Press, copyright 1997, paperback. It covers
lots of different calendars (Gregorian, Julian, Coptic & Ethiopic, Islamic,
Persian, Baha'i, Hebrew, Mayan & Old Hindu), along with a bit of history,
but targeted specifically toward computer implementation. The sample code is
in LISP, for all you tongue-tied programmers. ;-)
--
Judson McClendon judmc@sunvaley0.com (remove zero)
Sun Valley Systems http://sunvaley.com
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
"Oliver Wong" <owong@castortech.com> wrote:
> "James J. Gavan" <jgavandeletethis@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> I really don't know much about what calendars and date/formats are used
> in Asia, or anywhere else in the world for that matter. I heard, for
> example, that there's a "Buddhist Calendar", but I have no idea how often
> it is used, if at all.
>
> According to this Microsoft guide on globalization ...
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/...s/wrg_date.mspx
>
> ... the Japanese, at least, seem to be using a "year, month, day" order
> when using the Gregorian calendar (that's the calendar we North Americans
> typically use). I believe the Japanese also have their own calendar, where
> each era (our equivalent to eras would be "BC" and "AD") changes
> relatively frequently (I believe it changes every time a new Emperor is
> crowned or something like that). My Japanese friends seem to be able to
> use both the Japanese calendar and the Gregorian calendar, and can switch
> between the two with relative ease.
>
> Can't really comment on any of the other Asian calendars listed on that
> page (Taiwainese, Korean, Thai, etc.) as I don't know anything about them.
>
> I think your best bet, if you want to make your software globally
> accessible, is to store your dates in some internally well defined format
> (doesn't matter what the format is; it could internally be stored as
> Gregorian; or as number of days since 1970, January 1st; or any other
> system) and then have various functions which, given a date in this
> internal format, return a string representing the format in the given
> locale (e.g. "toGregorianCalendarString()", "toJapaneseCalendarString()",
> etc.) That's approximately the interface that the Java and .NET code
> libaries provide (except that they have hooks into the OS to detect the
> appropriate locale automatically).
>
> - Oliver
| |
| James J. Gavan 2005-11-24, 6:55 pm |
| Judson McClendon wrote:
> Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant that I would like to see dates written in
> year, month, day order across the board - in print and practice, across
> cultures, etc. :-)
If you go with the ISO Date Standard that's it. For well over 20 years
now I have written personal cheques with 2005 Nov 24. Never had a query
from any bank. Similarly as a standard date header for printing :-
Date : 2005 Nov 24 11:25 - your preference, could also throw in the day
name - again no problems.
User input - well I'm not interested in days, so not quite the same
thing; "1" will return and store Jan 2000.
For accounting applications where you don't actually supply the date
(say function Current Date), then I would try and encourage users to use
a variation of the ccyymmdd format - not the sequence, but perhaps drop
the "cc" part - doing some logical checks by program to get the full
eight numerics for storage.
Reluctant users - well do a snow job on them, "Do you realize how easily
I can produce you listings in correct date sequencing ? It is much
easier and more effective.....". Don't have to tell them that with
'shuffling', reference-mod or whatever you can still achieve this :-).
> You linguists out there - in languages written right to left, are numbers
> written with highest order on the right also? In ancient Hebrew, where
> numbers are encoded using letters, I think this is the case. Anyone know of
> a language which uses Arabic digits and writes them right to left?
I'd be curious for an answer to that one. I'll tell you one thing though
- from my time in the RAF in Egypt - oh my gosh, now 50 years ago - the
Arabic numerals on an Egyptian licence plate looked nothing like what
you and I call 'Arabic numerals'.
Jimmy
| |
| Alistair 2005-11-24, 6:55 pm |
| Actually, the French French also use "le wend". Just that their
masters in Paris don't like it. They also use "le sexy". And loads of
others which seem to have escaped my mind.
| |
| Alistair 2005-11-24, 6:55 pm |
| In the UK we had a tv show with a Latin American weather forecast. Sun
symbols everywhere and the weather girl going "Scorchio!". It's now
part of English.
| |
| Alistair 2005-11-24, 6:55 pm |
| So-called Arabic Numerals originated from India and came to Europe via
the Arabs. Indians invented the zero.No Roman, of ancient times,
amounted to much in mathematics because of their quaint system.
| |
| Judson McClendon 2005-11-24, 6:55 pm |
| "Alistair" <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> So-called Arabic Numerals originated from India and came to Europe via
> the Arabs. Indians invented the zero.No Roman, of ancient times,
> amounted to much in mathematics because of their quaint system.
Ever since the 5th grade, when the teacher explained Roman Numerals, I have
often wondered how the Romans managed long division? :-)
--
Judson McClendon judmc@sunvaley0.com (remove zero)
Sun Valley Systems http://sunvaley.com
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
| |
| James J. Gavan 2005-11-24, 9:55 pm |
| Alistair wrote:
> In the UK we had a tv show with a Latin American weather forecast. Sun
> symbols everywhere and the weather girl going "Scorchio!". It's now
> part of English.
>
Now here's the really relevant part Alistair - could one apply the term
'Scorchio' to the weather girl ? ("Mama mia she is bellisimo !").
| |
| James J. Gavan 2005-11-25, 3:55 am |
| Alistair wrote:
> So-called Arabic Numerals originated from India and came to Europe via
> the Arabs. Indians invented the zero.No Roman, of ancient times,
> amounted to much in mathematics because of their quaint system.
>
Well a hoary one from the past Alistair.
Centurion to his group, "Atten-shun !". "From the right Numbah !".
They dutifully respond in turn, "I", "I,I", "I,I,I", "I,V".
The centurion interjects, "Ivee ? That's a girl's name !", sneering at
Spentus Victorious.
| |
| James J. Gavan 2005-11-25, 3:55 am |
| Judson McClendon wrote:
> "Alistair" <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Ever since the 5th grade, when the teacher explained Roman Numerals, I have
> often wondered how the Romans managed long division? :-)
It's alright for you. Take that smirk off your face. Even with Arabic
numerals I'm not too hot at short division.
Jimmy
| |
| Oliver Wong 2005-11-25, 6:55 pm |
|
"Judson McClendon" <judmc@sunvaley0.com> wrote in message
news:g2lhf.17548$s92.9776@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>
> You linguists out there - in languages written right to left, are numbers
> written with highest order on the right also? In ancient Hebrew, where
> numbers are encoded using letters, I think this is the case. Anyone know
> of a language which uses Arabic digits and writes them right to left?
Haven't been able to contact my Arabic-speaking friend yet, but from
what I recall, Arabic itself is right to left, and yet the numbers are
written left to right.
- Oliver
| |
| Alistair 2005-11-26, 6:55 pm |
|
Judson McClendon wrote:
> One calendar that is highly standardized, though the use is narrow, is the
> Julian Calendar used by astronomers.
Slight problem with that one. If your American atomic clock watchers do
away with the leap second (and if European clock watchers retain
it).....
| |
| Judson McClendon 2005-11-26, 6:55 pm |
| "Alistair" <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Judson McClendon wrote:
>
> Slight problem with that one. If your American atomic clock watchers do
> away with the leap second (and if European clock watchers retain it)....
Have you heard that something of the kind is in the offing? If so I'm quite
surprised. :-)
--
Judson McClendon judmc@sunvaley0.com (remove zero)
Sun Valley Systems http://sunvaley.com
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
| |
| Robert Jones 2005-11-26, 6:55 pm |
| Bottom posting
Judson McClendon wrote:
> "Alistair" <alistair@ld50macca.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Have you heard that something of the kind is in the offing? If so I'm quite
> surprised. :-)
> --
> Judson McClendon judmc@sunvaley0.com (remove zero)
> Sun Valley Systems http://sunvaley.com
> "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that
> whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
Yes, there certainly is a change proposed, though it is still under
consideration with some considerable opposition and the proposed date
has now been put back by several years.
A good reference is at
http://www.ucolick.org/~sla/leapsec...ml#Event2005-05
As I understand it, the plan is to replace leap seconds by leap hours
of which the first would not be necessary for about 500 years. For the
average citizen, this would lead to no worse a glitch than changing to
and from summer time, for computer systems, the lack of leap seconds
for the industrial foreseeable future (a few decades) would make time
management much easier, though navigational, astronomical and similar
systems would have had some problems if the change were to have taken
place as soon as originally planned. There would be a need for a
larger offset to distinguish between UT1 and UTC, which would
probably/hopefully be given another name, though some people still use
the term GMT, which I think the British Admiralty insisted on
continuing to use after 1925 when the start of the GMT day changed from
noon to midnight and the government went along with, perhaps an 'order
in council' was made.
There might be a lot of programmers cursing in 500 years, on the other
had it may well be that systems will be largely automatically developed
and provided a few years/decades notice were given the change could
then be factored in with little difficulty. Another benefit of
switching to leap hours is that eventually the need for leap seconds
would become much more frequent and arguably the use of leap hours
would be easier in the very long term future.
Robert
| |
| Howard Brazee 2005-11-28, 6:55 pm |
| On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 22:29:04 -0500, "Rick Smith" <ricksmith@mfi.net>
wrote:
>
>C.E., which, depending on source, means either
>Common Era or Christian Era.
At least, since there is no year zero, we don't have people mistakenly
putting down 12:00 AM or 12:00 PM (Our computers don't understand
12:00 M or 12:00 MM).
12:00 PM is pretty irrational of a concept to be pushed by computers.
| |
| Howard Brazee 2005-11-28, 6:55 pm |
| On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 18:53:29 GMT, "James J. Gavan"
<jgavandeletethis@shaw.ca> wrote:
>Reluctant users - well do a snow job on them, "Do you realize how easily
>I can produce you listings in correct date sequencing ? It is much
>easier and more effective.....". Don't have to tell them that with
>'shuffling', reference-mod or whatever you can still achieve this :-).
The same argument goes for printing out the Zulu time instead of local
time.
ESPN uses Eastern Time.
| |
| Howard Brazee 2005-11-28, 6:55 pm |
| On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 10:51:42 -0600, "Judson McClendon"
<judmc@sunvaley0.com> wrote:
>One calendar that is highly standardized, though the use is narrow, is the
>Julian Calendar used by astronomers. Dates are represented as a decimal
>number of days, and the decimal fraction represents the part of day since
>the previous day. The date changes at noon, so an integer Julian Date would
>be a date at precisely noon. J.D. 0 = Noon on Monday January 1, 4713 BC
>(Julian Calendar) = Noon on Monday, November 24, 4713 BC (Gregorian
>Calendar). Apparently this makes astronomical calculations easier, and is
>used by astronomers worldwide, AFAIK.
Astronomers like things easier for them, even if they don't make sense
elsewhere - examples are sidereal days and parsecs.
| |
| Howard Brazee 2005-11-28, 6:55 pm |
| On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 15:35:39 GMT, "Oliver Wong" <owong@castortech.com>
wrote:
> Haven't been able to contact my Arabic-speaking friend yet, but from
>what I recall, Arabic itself is right to left, and yet the numbers are
>written left to right.
Sort of like the Intel chip?
| |
| Oliver Wong 2005-11-28, 6:55 pm |
| "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net> wrote in message
news:0s8mo1h04i70j210pa52j78hbunm8qcjql@
4ax.com...
>
> Astronomers like things easier for them, even if they don't make sense
> elsewhere - examples are sidereal days and parsecs.
I think this is generally true of everyone.
- Oliver
| |
| Chuck Stevens 2005-11-28, 6:55 pm |
|
"James J. Gavan" <jgavandeletethis@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:jP7hf.594171$tl2.399169@pd7tw3no...
> As Richard might write if he was based in Israel, "Please do keep up -
> it's BCE". Not quite sure what they do with 'AD'.
'CE' is what they do with it. Stands for "Common Era", IIRC.
-Chuck Stevens
| |
| Chuck Stevens 2005-11-28, 6:55 pm |
|
"James J. Gavan" <jgavandeletethis@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:B7ahf.587971$oW2.326367@pd7tw1no...
> I suggested Israel because that's the only place I've heard/seen it used.
Commonly seen in Biblical Archaeology Review articles, depending on the
metaphysical perspective (more to the point than national origin) of the
authors.
-Chuck Stevens
| |
| Howard Brazee 2005-11-28, 6:55 pm |
| On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 09:13:50 -0800, "Chuck Stevens"
<charles.stevens@unisys.com> wrote:
>'CE' is what they do with it. Stands for "Common Era", IIRC.
We live in common times.
| |
| James J. Gavan 2005-11-28, 9:55 pm |
| Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 09:13:50 -0800, "Chuck Stevens"
> <charles.stevens@unisys.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> We live in common times.
How about BP 'Before Present' :-). My wife gets the International
Express a wly from UK for their 'Anglo' crossword puzzle. I read it
to reminisce. Recall the "Two Ronnies" at all from TV. Ronnie Corbett
died at 76 just a couple of ws back.
Anyway the Express is a right wing tabloid which uses the slightest
excuse to hammer Tony Blair. Not that he would disapprove about
'smacking' Socialists, but founder (?), and certainly owner at one time,
Max Aitkin a Canuck who became Lord Beaverbrook, Churchill's Minister
for Production (armaments, supply aircraft etc.), would certainly turn
in his grave seeing what they have done to his newspaper.
W Ending 8 - 14 November - 'NOW CHRIST IS BANNED". Seems some twit
who is curator for the Cheddar Caves museum at Cheddar Gorge,
Somerset,(where I saw my first stalagmites/stalactites), changed all
historical references to BP to be 'politically correct', so nobody gets
upset.
A C of E spokesman said, "I always thought BP (British Petroleum) was
where you go to fill up with petrol. I can't understand the point of
introducing other initials and I'm sure no one else can. It's
unnecessary and incredibly silly".
Historian Dr. David Starkey dubbed it "infantile". He added "I'm not a
Christian, indeed I am anti-Christian but BC is an essential feature of
our history and to dispense with it in such a frivolous way is very
foolish".
Massoud Shadjareh, Chairman Islamic Human Rights Commission, said people
of all faiths "were now getting really annoyed with 'PC'....". "Muslims
and other faiths have no problem celebrating Christmas or using the term
BC........".
They are going nuts over 'PC' on the other side of the pond. Just a few
ws back one bank decided to remove Piggy Banks from display - mustn't
offend Muslims. Hang about a bit. What about the Jewish community that
has existed in England since the Middle Ages ?
Well not just UK. Our Bay department store group - seasonal stickers on
their doors, "Happy Hanukkah", but the other December event is shown
with "Seasons Greetings".
Jimmy
| |
| Ian Dalziel 2005-11-28, 9:55 pm |
| On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:52:39 GMT, "James J. Gavan"
<jgavandeletethis@shaw.ca> wrote:
>Recall the "Two Ronnies" at all from TV. Ronnie Corbett
>died at 76 just a couple of ws back.
Ronnie Barker. It was Goodnight from him, not from him.
--
Ian
| |
| James J. Gavan 2005-11-28, 9:55 pm |
| Ian Dalziel wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:52:39 GMT, "James J. Gavan"
> <jgavandeletethis@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Ronnie Barker. It was Goodnight from him, not from him.
Yes I *thought* I should have checked back on the surname.
Sad. I'll miss the two of them, just like I miss Eric and Ernie, Hattie
Jacques, (from Tony Hancock days), now dead 25 years and her ex-husband
John le Mesurier.
Still at least I've got John on a VCR set of "Dad's Army". (Which I'm
currently seeing as re-runs from PBS Spokane, Wa., on Saturday
evenings). I remember John's self-penned obituary. "John le Mesurier
wishes his friends to know that he has conked out. He will miss them
terribly".
Jimmy
| |
| Donald Tees 2005-11-28, 9:55 pm |
| James J. Gavan wrote:
> Howard Brazee wrote:
>
> They are going nuts over 'PC' on the other side of the pond. Just a few
> ws back one bank decided to remove Piggy Banks from display - mustn't
> offend Muslims. Hang about a bit. What about the Jewish community that
> has existed in England since the Middle Ages ?
>
> Well not just UK. Our Bay department store group - seasonal stickers on
> their doors, "Happy Hanukkah", but the other December event is shown
> with "Seasons Greetings".
>
I read today where the government "finalized the depopulation" of a farm
because a duck was found with avian flue. I am still unsure whether
they killed all the ducks, or knocked off the farmer and familly.
Donald
| |
| Chuck Stevens 2005-11-28, 9:55 pm |
|
"James J. Gavan" <jgavandeletethis@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:beJif.636773$oW2.182109@pd7tw1no...
> Well not just UK. Our Bay department store group - seasonal stickers on
> their doors, "Happy Hanukkah", but the other December event is shown with
> "Seasons Greetings".
Gotta admit, Jimmy, that's priceless!
Now that we know how they choose to commemorate Kwanzaa, what are they
planning to do about Christmas (which as everybody who has been exposed to
Correct Teaching knows isn't until January 7 anyway)? ;-)
-Chuck Stevens
| |
| Caederus 2005-11-29, 6:55 pm |
| I have worked on a multilingual system for several years written in
Microfacus cobol. There are some points to consider.
1) What is the country(s)/Language that you will/are marketing to? With
the exception of Chinese, and Korean you don't need unicode, it can be
nice, but you don't need it. Most languages have a single byte code
page that covers all of the funky characters. Some code pages even
cover multiple languages. Even for Japanese you can use a single byte
code page (Shift-JIS) By keeping the data in the native language in a
singe byte code page you can keep the cobol flat files.
2) Those cobol flat files are also the key to localizing the reports
and screens. Change your screens and reports to use headings and labels
from a configuration file which is localized for the language in
question.
This starts down the road of Internationaliztion of the product (point
1) and localization (point 2). Be prepared for an interesting ride.
| |
|
| PradeepR wrote:
> Hello,
> I am looking for, general solution ideas, regarding multilingual
> conversion of existing applications. Once I get some idea then, may be,
> I can go in for more detail.
>
> I have got existing application written in ACUCOBOL running in SCO Unix
> OS. The database is Flat Cobol files which have the facility of
> indexing. Currently only English language is supported. All the screens
> and reports are in English.
>
> I am a COBOL guy with not much experience in OOPs/.NET.
> Now, if I have to convert it to modern GUI based mulitilingual RDMS
> system, where do I begin. I understand that this looks to be quite a
> major exercise (I may be wrong!)
> Any help with website links or approaches will also be appreciated.
>
> Currently few thoughts that I have got are (Please feel free to point
> any problems that these apporaches may have):
>
> Approach 1
>
> 1. Convert Flat files to RDMS which has Unicode support. Is there some
> tools available through which this can be done?
> 2. Convert the screen to modern .NET or Java
> 3. Keep the COBOL code at the middle tier to handle business logic
>
> This will require major effort as I have to catch hold of .NET/Java
> guys and think of how to convert existing Flat files. The other problem
> is regarding Unix. How to make it talk to Unix.
>
> Approach 2
>
> 1. Make an emulator which converts the english screen to different
> language.
>
> There will not be any code change, as only the screen will change to
> show it in different language. This may slow down the system and I am
> not sure if it is workable.
>
> Approach 3
>
> Scrap the current package and buy readymade products. This should be
> easy but will lead to understanding the new package and make it
> compatible with current requirements.
>
> Thanks for your attention and for any ideas (if any). I hope this is
> appropriate forum to ask this.
>
> PNR
PNR;
We do this in our application, currently we support Quebecois and
English. All the literals exist in a table which has entries (up to
four I think,) for each numbered literal. It is very much like the
system which exists in the open source environment (which we predate by
several years,) but our table contains the length of the literal
field. We have considered converting to the Babel system which would
give us lots of advantages (pre built dictionaries for one,) but we
don't understand what that would do to our license. (We could just use
their facilities to populate our tables, but that would be cheating
maybe.) At any rate AcuCobol also has built in tables for their
individual error screens as well. As for GUI, now they support not
only Windows dll's, but internal links to java as well so you could
implement the GUI independently from the COBOL business logic. (See
extend7 release documentation.)
The license problem is a real pain as we would release our application
under GPL if we had a viable COBOL compiler. Kobol, Tiny Cobol don't
do GUI, RDBM, or ODBC. fdr
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