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| Author |
mainframe career advice
|
|
| Mirlitone 2005-09-27, 6:55 pm |
| hi there, sorry if it's not the appropriate goup...
I've just earned my Master degree of Computer Science, and i'm looking
for a job. i've carried out some internships in JAVA, C++ and a bit of
..NET.
Now it seems that i can't get a job in J2EE with my J2SE background, so
i've received a proposal in the mainframe area. This job comes with a
training program, since i'm completely new in this field.
Do you think mainframe is a good option to start my career with ? Don't
you think i might be trapped in by working with these dying
technologies?
BTW i'm in France, and the salary is 24.5 US$ after tax.
thanks in advance for your comments
| |
|
| In article <1127825963.895553.270230@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Mirlitone <news@mirlitone.com> wrote:
[snip]
>Now it seems that i can't get a job in J2EE with my J2SE background, so
>i've received a proposal in the mainframe area. This job comes with a
>training program, since i'm completely new in this field.
>
>Do you think mainframe is a good option to start my career with ? Don't
>you think i might be trapped in by working with these dying
>technologies?
Work is, usually, better than Not... and the ability to learn new skills
is also, in my opinion, a valuable thing.
DD
| |
| Mirlitone 2005-09-27, 6:55 pm |
| you're right, but why does a firm would hire me if i don't have what it
wants? If i choose maiframe now, i think i'll be stuck because i won't
be abble to be hired in a job where i use something else. It's not
that i can't learn a new technology, it's simply that no one would hire
me if the techology i know is useless.
There's **must** be a reason that hardly no one want to work with
mainframe to start a career.
I speak from what i know, things may be different elsewhere... ;-)
| |
| Michael Mattias 2005-09-27, 6:55 pm |
| "Mirlitone" <news@mirlitone.com> wrote in message
news:1127825963.895553.270230@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> BTW i'm in France, and the salary is 24.5 US$ after tax.
This has *got* to be a cultural thing. I've never seen anyone talk about
wages or salaries using "after tax" as the unit of measure...
MCM
| |
| Mirlitone 2005-09-27, 6:55 pm |
| Well, i can give you my before tax yearly wage in euros, if you want
;-)
As i assume that the audience is american, i give it 'after tax' and in
$, since taxes in europe are way higher than in the states.
And it's 24,500 US$ \ year , not 24.5
| |
|
| In article <1127828371.893554.170890@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Mirlitone <news@mirlitone.com> wrote:
>you're right, but why does a firm would hire me if i don't have what it
>wants?
I barely know why *I* would do things, let alone anyone else... but you
seem to have enough of what the firm wants for them to offer you a job and
training.
>If i choose maiframe now, i think i'll be stuck because i won't
>be abble to be hired in a job where i use something else. It's not
>that i can't learn a new technology, it's simply that no one would hire
>me if the techology i know is useless.
What you see as 'useless' and what other firms see as 'useless' might not
be the same thing. What you have now is training in some technologies and
the capability to learn more. Other firms do not seem to want to pay you
for this, the mainframe shop does.
>
>There's **must** be a reason that hardly no one want to work with
>mainframe to start a career.
There are probably many reasons... and these reasons keep people away from
mainframe shops to the point where one is willing to hire and train you.
Five years from now you will have what you already have now - training in
new technologies (but then they may be 'old' ones) - and additional
training and experience on Big Iron... oh, and whatever salary you've
earned in the meantime.
DD
| |
| howard.brazee@cusys.edu 2005-09-27, 6:55 pm |
| On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 13:43:25 GMT, "Michael Mattias"
<michael.mattias@gte.net> wrote:
>This has *got* to be a cultural thing. I've never seen anyone talk about
>wages or salaries using "after tax" as the unit of measure...
But that's what counts.
Unfortunately, that's not easy to determine. Does living in a place
with high sales tax or a high VAT, make your after tax income higher
than living in a place with a high income tax?
Or even living in a place that taxes the corporations from which you
buy goods and services?
All taxes are paid for by the people - even the tax of deficit
spending. Learning how much we are spending on government isn't
easy.
By the same token, we should count those services we get from the
state as income. For instance the tax increase that we get moving
to a country with socialized medicine comes with a spending decrease
for medicine.
The real test is - do you have more stuff or less stuff?
| |
| Mirlitone 2005-09-27, 6:55 pm |
| I confess i know nothing about mainframes.
I shouldn't have said "dying", let me say that again :
"by working with these rather old and innatractive technologies"
| |
| Mirlitone 2005-09-27, 6:55 pm |
| No, the real test is : do i have a bigger car than my neighbor ?
| |
| Chuck Stevens 2005-09-27, 6:55 pm |
| Well, the point is: is a technology that drives the entire funds transfer
and conversion network for Europe "rather old and unattractive"? How about
the technology that underlies the national banks of several fairly lzrge
countries? How about the large credit-card company that has a whole
roomful of "commodity" network servers whose primary purpose is to route
information to a mainframe way off in the corner that actually houses the
company's customer records?
A Harley Springer Softail might be the Bike du Jour and a heck of a lot of
fun to fiddle around with (and given a choice of ways to get from point A to
point B without luggage or passengers on a day that isn't raining I'll take
my BMW R1100R every time -- as I did today -- though I'm a bit diffident
about doing much fiddling around with it as yet).
For Motoring (the four-wheeled English-style recreational activity) I don't
think anything would beat a Morgan.
I'd certainly thank anyone who gave me a brand-new Ferrari as a gift.
For carrying one-to-four passengers on a short or long trip something like a
Toyota Avalon is a better choice as a Ride than my BMW would be.
But to the main point, there are also times and circumstances in which a
Peterbilt or Kenworth is really the only appropriate tool for the job.
Personally, I think there's much positive to be said about Kenworths and
Peterbilts and Ferraris and Morgans and Toyotas and Harleys and two-wheeled
BMW's. And if I were a mechanic I think I'd be delighted to gain the
knowledge and skill set that would allow me to work competently and
efficiently on any of them.
-Chuck Stevens
"Mirlitone" <news@mirlitone.com> wrote in message
news:1127832836.154820.255000@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> I confess i know nothing about mainframes.
>
> I shouldn't have said "dying", let me say that again :
> "by working with these rather old and innatractive technologies"
>
| |
| howard.brazee@cusys.edu 2005-09-27, 6:55 pm |
| On 27 Sep 2005 08:03:10 -0700, "Mirlitone" <news@mirlitone.com> wrote:
>No, the real test is : do i have a bigger car than my neighbor ?
Toys vary. For my wife - vacations are toys that matter. I like
golf. We both like spending money on our grandkids.
If we moved away from our grandkids, we would need more money to pay
for that particular pastime (or to compensate us for not having as
much time to spend with them). But if we moved where it was easier
to take vacations, my wife's toy would be more affordable.
| |
| howard.brazee@cusys.edu 2005-09-27, 6:55 pm |
| On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 08:41:22 -0700, "Chuck Stevens"
<charles.stevens@unisys.com> wrote:
>A Harley Springer Softail might be the Bike du Jour and a heck of a lot of
>fun to fiddle around with (and given a choice of ways to get from point A to
>point B without luggage or passengers on a day that isn't raining I'll take
>my BMW R1100R every time -- as I did today -- though I'm a bit diffident
>about doing much fiddling around with it as yet).
>
>For Motoring (the four-wheeled English-style recreational activity) I don't
>think anything would beat a Morgan.
>
>I'd certainly thank anyone who gave me a brand-new Ferrari as a gift.
I just was looking in the parking lot at a 1955 Jaguar. I was
drooling. But there's not much future in them.
>But to the main point, there are also times and circumstances in which
> a Peterbilt or Kenworth is really the only appropriate tool for the job.
Or a cargo ship. But they're changing the technologies in these and
I'd find it hard to go home to my wife in Colorado every evening if I
drove a cargo ship for a living.
| |
| Michael Mattias 2005-09-27, 6:55 pm |
| "Mirlitone" <news@mirlitone.com> wrote in message
news:1127833390.877733.276030@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> No, the real test is : do i have a bigger car than my neighbor ?
Ah, now we know this thread is near its end... we've gotten to the
semi-inevitable "mine's bigger than yours" phase...
| |
| Mirlitone 2005-09-27, 6:55 pm |
| ;-)
| |
| Frederico Fonseca 2005-09-27, 6:55 pm |
| On 27 Sep 2005 05:59:23 -0700, "Mirlitone" <news@mirlitone.com> wrote:
>hi there, sorry if it's not the appropriate goup...
>
>I've just earned my Master degree of Computer Science, and i'm looking
>for a job. i've carried out some internships in JAVA, C++ and a bit of
>.NET.
>
>Now it seems that i can't get a job in J2EE with my J2SE background, so
>i've received a proposal in the mainframe area. This job comes with a
>training program, since i'm completely new in this field.
>
>Do you think mainframe is a good option to start my career with ? Don't
>you think i might be trapped in by working with these dying
>technologies?
>
>BTW i'm in France, and the salary is 24.5 US$ after tax.
This if this this way.
You are getting experience on a technology that sometime soon will not
have that many people that know how to use it. This can mean big bucks
for you in in the future.
Regardless of this working on a mainframe is not necessaraly a "old"
technology. You may not be aware but you can run Linux on a mainframe,
and you can have all type of web development done in Java on it.
Many companies have now their data still on the mainframes, as there
is now way some of the more recent OS'es /machines could cope with the
data volume required, but they still develop web interfaces to their
data. So working on some of these companies is not different on
working with a Microsoft only co.
So give it a try, it won't hurt you and in the near future if you
don't like it, or if within the company there is no future elsewhere
then you can always change, and in the meantime you will have the very
important REAL LIFE experience.
Frederico Fonseca
ema il: frederico_fonseca at syssoft-int.com
| |
| Chuck Stevens 2005-09-27, 6:55 pm |
|
<howard.brazee@cusys.edu> wrote in message
news:fvqij1dthdkkuqvig75014sik7q4ejr8hl@
4ax.com...
> On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 08:41:22 -0700, "Chuck Stevens"
> I just was looking in the parking lot at a 1955 Jaguar. I was
> drooling. But there's not much future in them.
The first foreign car my family owned was a '52 Mark VII. My dad bought it
in October 1955 for I think $1800 and traded it in in February 1958 on a
brand-new Renault Dauphine. I think the Dauphine cost around $1500 and we
got $600 in trade for the Jaguar.
I went through the repairs that I personally could remember having been done
on that car some years later, and deduced that there was not a single
assembly on that car, from front bumper to rear inclusive (and specifically
including both gas tanks, all four doors, the sunroof, the trafficator arms,
the seats and every single instrument on the panel) that did *not* suffer a
mechanical or electrical failure of some sort requiring expert mechanical
intervention (not to include collision damage, mind!). I do remember that
we spent $3600 in those twenty-eight months on mechanical repairs. That was
a chunk of change back then.
This was also the era when my father's cataracts had progressed
significantly, and he was still using the Jaguar to commute some thirty
miles to work. By the time we traded it in the Jaguar's bodywork was, shall
we say, rather compromised. It languished on the lot for quite a while
before someone actually bought it, and we saw it on the street a couple of
times, but it was no more than a year before I spotted it in a local
junkyard (the body having suffered no further damage than it had when we
traded it in).
The Dauphine, though not as reliable as the 4CV we also owned by that point,
held up much better than the Jaguar despite the Dauphine's abysmal
reputation in that regard. The Dauphine was replaced a couple of years
later by a used '59 Beetle that lasted nearly a decade.
It was the memory of that experience with the Jaguar and my father's
attempts to use it as a Transportation Conveyance, coupled with my own later
experience with a MGTD and a Morgan in the same role, that led me to believe
that English cars are actually Motorcars, and when you use them for Motoring
they are truly wonderful. They are not, however, particularly good
Automobiles, because the expectation that the "mobile" part have some degree
of "auto" to it is not well met. They want to be actively Enjoyed as a
Pastime, not used as transportation.
-Chuck Stevens
| |
| Mirlitone 2005-09-27, 6:55 pm |
| Thanks, i think i start to change my mind...
| |
|
| In article <dhbu5u$1j5a$1@si05.rsvl.unisys.com>,
Chuck Stevens <charles.stevens@unisys.com> wrote:
[snip]
>It was the memory of that experience with the Jaguar and my father's
>attempts to use it as a Transportation Conveyance, coupled with my own later
>experience with a MGTD and a Morgan in the same role, that led me to believe
>that English cars are actually Motorcars, and when you use them for Motoring
>they are truly wonderful. They are not, however, particularly good
>Automobiles, because the expectation that the "mobile" part have some degree
>of "auto" to it is not well met. They want to be actively Enjoyed as a
>Pastime, not used as transportation.
Hmmmmm... might be a result of that theory of positive-ground (-earth)
electrics.
DD
| |
| HeyBub 2005-09-27, 6:55 pm |
| Mirlitone wrote:
> I confess i know nothing about mainframes.
>
> I shouldn't have said "dying", let me say that again :
> "by working with these rather old and innatractive technologies"
I understand. You can't put flames on a 80x24 monitor. And a paycheck is so,
so YESTERDAY!
| |
|
| In article <11jjjhv3mtulq26@news.supernews.com>,
HeyBub <heybubNOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:
>Mirlitone wrote:
>
>I understand. You can't put flames on a 80x24 monitor.
In a system evaluation, years ago, I wrote 'Anyone who states 'you can do
anything on a mainframe that you can do on a PC' has not pondered why it
is that one never sees a flying-toaster screen-saver on a 3278 terminal;
each architecture has functions that would be inappropriate to attempt to
implement on the other.'
>And a paycheck is so, so YESTERDAY!
Even for those who make use of direct deposit?
DD
| |
|
| hi .. read all that stuff wat mirlitone was tellin .. i too agree wid
him. i am also a fresher and fortunatly or unfortunately ,i got job in
a company that deals only with mainframes ... and now i had a exp of
some 5 months in the same company .. I too , feel , mainframes is dying
and its defintly old one . and i feel jealous of my friends, doin stuff
on java and other new technology products.. feels guilty why i am into
the main frames. though the money they provide ....is descent ... the
** kind of satisfaction** is not really enuf. but thinking on the
other side ... i haven't seen how java technologies actually work (as i
am fresher) ...
please give guidelines for me .. to the better of my future
thank you
| |
|
| In article <1127897775.263918.48680@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
K K <kishorekadam@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
>please give guidelines for me .. to the better of my future
Find something (preferably legal) you enjoy doing that you can do better
than anyone else, study it and get a job doing it.
DD
| |
| Ian Dalziel 2005-09-28, 7:55 am |
| On 28 Sep 2005 01:56:15 -0700, "K K" <kishorekadam@gmail.com> wrote:
>hi .. read all that stuff wat mirlitone was tellin .. i too agree wid
>him. i am also a fresher and fortunatly or unfortunately ,i got job in
>a company that deals only with mainframes ... and now i had a exp of
>some 5 months in the same company .. I too , feel , mainframes is dying
>and its defintly old one . and i feel jealous of my friends, doin stuff
>on java and other new technology products.. feels guilty why i am into
>the main frames. though the money they provide ....is descent ... the
>** kind of satisfaction** is not really enuf. but thinking on the
>other side ... i haven't seen how java technologies actually work (as i
>am fresher) ...
>please give guidelines for me .. to the better of my future
>thank you
A course in English might be a good starting point?
--
Ian
| |
| Mirlitone 2005-09-28, 7:55 am |
| I'm so glad that no one has made any remark about my english level ;-)
so glad...
| |
| Mirlitone 2005-09-28, 7:55 am |
| There are new stuffs about the position i can get: here's the technical
environement:
- type of mainframe : IBM z serie
- OS : MVS
- language : Cobol, or PL/1, or C or C++
I'm new in all that stuff but C/C++.
Taking into account the fact that IBM is very involved in JAVA, do you
think that JAVA under mainframe could be a good carier opportunity in
the next future ?
| |
|
| i apolozise for my english. I 'll stop writing short cuts ... anyway,
but can you please find the solution of the problem posed by me ...
| |
| Ian Dalziel 2005-09-28, 7:55 am |
| On 28 Sep 2005 03:10:50 -0700, "Mirlitone" <news@mirlitone.com> wrote:
>I'm so glad that no one has made any remark about my english level ;-)
>so glad...
Using English as a foreign language is one thing - deliberately using
"language" instead of English is something else.
Can't say I noticed any problems with your English, anyway.
--
Ian
| |
| Ian Dalziel 2005-09-28, 7:55 am |
| On 28 Sep 2005 03:23:13 -0700, "K K" <kishorekadam@gmail.com> wrote:
>i apolozise for my english. I 'll stop writing short cuts ... anyway,
>but can you please find the solution of the problem posed by me ...
Well, not really, unless you can source a crystal ball. What you want
is to be expert in the flavour of software that's going to be in short
supply next year or the year after.
I'd have to say, though, that if you don't find satisfaction in
developing software on mainframes, then I think you're unlikely to
find it just because you're using something more fashionable.
--
Ian
| |
| howard.brazee@cusys.edu 2005-09-28, 6:55 pm |
| On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 01:13:41 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf@panix.com () wrote:
>
>Even for those who make use of direct deposit?
When people started paying with paper money, some employees objected.
When people started paying with checks, some employees objected.
When people started paying with direct deposit, some employees
objected.
But they didn't object when companies offered pension plans paid out
of future profits.
Odd.
| |
|
| In article <4i5lj1hokjav37s9g8pagfnj37dflde4jo@4ax.com>,
<howard.brazee@cusys.edu> wrote:
>On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 01:13:41 +0000 (UTC), docdwarf@panix.com () wrote:
>
>
>When people started paying with paper money, some employees objected.
I cannot find a cite for this but I do not find it implausible.
>When people started paying with checks, some employees objected.
I cannot find a cite for this but I do not find it implausible.
>When people started paying with direct deposit, some employees
>objected.
I cannot find a cite for this but I do not find it implausible.
>
>But they didn't object when companies offered pension plans paid out
>of future profits.
I cannot find a cite for this but I find it implausible; it is my
experience that changes of any sort meet with resistance from some
quarters. As is attributed to Machiavelli: 'There is nothing more
difficult to plan, more doubtful of success, nor more dangerous to manage
than the creation of a new system. For the initiator has the enmity of all
who would profit by the preservation of the old system and merely lukewarm
defenders in those who would gain by the new one.'
DD
| |
| HeyBub 2005-09-28, 6:55 pm |
| Mirlitone wrote:
> There are new stuffs about the position i can get: here's the
> technical environement:
>
> - type of mainframe : IBM z serie
> - OS : MVS
> - language : Cobol, or PL/1, or C or C++
>
> I'm new in all that stuff but C/C++.
>
> Taking into account the fact that IBM is very involved in JAVA, do you
> think that JAVA under mainframe could be a good carier opportunity in
> the next future ?
No. Sun, the keeper of the JAVA standard, is, by some estimates, either a
gomer or a goner.
| |
| SkippyPB 2005-09-28, 6:55 pm |
| On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 16:10:52 GMT, "Michael Mattias"
<michael.mattias@gte.net> enlightened us:
>"Mirlitone" <news@mirlitone.com> wrote in message
>news:1127833390.877733.276030@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>Ah, now we know this thread is near its end... we've gotten to the
>semi-inevitable "mine's bigger than yours" phase...
>
>
>
Well it was, until I got old and diabetic :(
Regards,
////
(o o)
-oOO--(_)--OOo-
"Hubert Humphrey talks so fast that listening to him is like
trying to read a Playboy with your wife turning the pages."
--Barry Goldwater, 1964 Republican presidential nominee
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Remove nospam to email me.
Steve
| |
| Richard 2005-09-28, 6:55 pm |
| > by some estimates,
That wasn't an 'estimate', it was one of Bill Gates' mission
statements.
| |
| Defaultuser 2005-09-28, 6:55 pm |
| "Mirlitone" <news@mirlitone.com> wrote in message
news:1127828371.893554.170890@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> you're right, but why does a firm would hire me if i don't have what it
> wants? If i choose maiframe now, i think i'll be stuck because i won't
> be abble to be hired in a job where i use something else. It's not
> that i can't learn a new technology, it's simply that no one would hire
> me if the techology i know is useless.
>
> There's **must** be a reason that hardly no one want to work with
> mainframe to start a career.
>
> I speak from what i know, things may be different elsewhere... ;-)
I'm not going to get Pete started but I read a quote the other day from
someone who works at a rather large company building modeling and coding
tools. The general gist was that people are threatened by the new tools
because they see themselves as Java/Cobol/Unix/J2SE practitioners. They are
threatened by anything that removes the need for that low level skill.
However, what people are failing to understand is that it's not what you
know, it's your ability to provide a solution. With experience you get more
to draw from. Remember: Software Engineers can have a career where coders
will have ever shortening contracts.
Using a twist on the hammer analogy.....if someone builds an pneumatic
hammer, it doesn't mean the house will build itself.
Learning is fun...to me that's better than doing the same old routine.
Yours
Someone Who Doesn't follow his own Advice
| |
| Defaultuser 2005-09-28, 6:55 pm |
| "Ian Dalziel" <iandalziel@lineone.net> wrote in message
news:vrnkj1psn2t8sqve3pdbdm6l50t0ln3hsk@
4ax.com...
> On 28 Sep 2005 01:56:15 -0700, "K K" <kishorekadam@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> A course in English might be a good starting point?
> --
>
> Ian
I would follow this up with a good grounding in logic.
Posting in a thread called comp.lang.cobol making the statement "mainframes
is dying" and then saying "give guidelines for me" makes about as much sense
as a beef cow asking a butcher if she should get a career in the dairy
industry.
J.
| |
| Defaultuser 2005-09-28, 6:55 pm |
| <docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:dhcqo5$fbr$1@reader1.panix.com...
> In article <11jjjhv3mtulq26@news.supernews.com>,
> HeyBub <heybubNOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> In a system evaluation, years ago, I wrote 'Anyone who states 'you can do
> anything on a mainframe that you can do on a PC' has not pondered why it
> is that one never sees a flying-toaster screen-saver on a 3278 terminal;
> each architecture has functions that would be inappropriate to attempt to
> implement on the other.'
That's not architecture, that's just based on the usage.
'You can do anything in a bungalow exactly as you can in a house' - doesn't
mean I ponder why I've never seen one with an stair lift.
I do recall someone taking a partition on a mainframe installing Linux, and
then a dos emulator in order to play an ancient version of pong once...but I
doubt anyone would have admitted to that somewhere where google could find
it.
> Even for those who make use of direct deposit?
>
> DD
I would say especially for those who make use of DD....
J.
| |
| Defaultuser 2005-09-28, 6:55 pm |
| > ;-)
We now have online a single message made of three characters that has no
point of reference, no real meaning, and no context. There will now be
thousands of servers in the world, and millions of cached copies that have
captured just one little moment in time. Was the poster amused, flirting,
or just casually responding.
This could, as a form of minimalist art, could be more enigmatic a smile
than that of the Mona Lisa!
J.
| |
| Defaultuser 2005-09-28, 6:55 pm |
| <howard.brazee@cusys.edu> wrote in message
> The real test is - do you have more stuff or less stuff?
And therein lies the problem with the Democratic People's Republic of
America.......we cannot see what we owe for all the debt we have....
J.
| |
| Mirlitone 2005-09-28, 6:55 pm |
| Wow dude, sit back and take a deep breathe.
Was this little crisis a side effect of Cobol on your brain ;-) ?
**This poor joke is the end of this thread.**
| |
| Defaultuser 2005-09-29, 3:55 am |
| "HeyBub" <heybubNOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:11jlbadls751ree@news.supernews.com...
> Mirlitone wrote:
IBM is also very involved with Consulting - perhaps that's a good career.
IBM is also very involved with open source - maybe that's a career for
you...it's very interesting even if, for the most part, the pay sucks.
A good opportunity is anything that pays and makes you not want to kill
yourself after you are done doing it. Java would qualify, on z/OS would
qualify under my rules
[color=darkred]
> No. Sun, the keeper of the JAVA standard, is, by some estimates, either a
> gomer or a goner.
By some estimates, Microsoft is falling apart from the inside and is
desperately trying to outplay Sony to win the multimedia rights to people's
brains. I have also estimated the number of piano tuners in the greater
Tampa Bay area....some estimates are more useful than others....in terms of
making career goals they are almost wholly useless.
It's a fact that the most mismanaged firms are more than likely the ones
that will overpay you and keep you the longest. Companies that suffer from
efficiency and productivity don't bode well for your <average> employee.
JCE
| |
|
| In article <ziE_e.109279$4i6.86064@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>,
Defaultuser <Defaultuser@hotmail.com> wrote:
><docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:dhcqo5$fbr$1@reader1.panix.com...
>
>That's not architecture, that's just based on the usage.
Ummmm... I thought that things like bus-width were matters of
architecture.
>'You can do anything in a bungalow exactly as you can in a house' - doesn't
>mean I ponder why I've never seen one with an stair lift.
According to http://www.m-w.com a bungalow *is* a house, usually.
>I do recall someone taking a partition on a mainframe installing Linux, and
>then a dos emulator in order to play an ancient version of pong once...but I
>doubt anyone would have admitted to that somewhere where google could find
>it.
This might have been done after my statement was made... Mr Torvalds did
not begin his kernel, I believe, until 1991.
>
>I would say especially for those who make use of DD....
Well, glad *that's* cleared up, then.
DD
| |
| Waldek Hebisch 2005-09-29, 6:55 pm |
| HeyBub <heybubNOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mirlitone wrote:
>
> It may surprise you to learn that mainframes are alive and well.
>
> How many PCs does it take to print the payroll checks for all government
> workers? For Air France?
>
Using standard software a single PC can typeset about thousend pages
per second. A PC database can easily deliver 20 thousend rows per
second. So, a single PC can generate content for millions of checks
per hour. It looks that the bottleneck is actual printing: you need
a sizeable printer farm to handle that load.
Granted, mainframes have bigger IO capacity that desktop PC. But you
just have to size things correctly, if not desktop then server machines.
For highest load it looks that IBM Power serwers are the best -- from
data sheets it looks that top Power machines offer 2-10 times better
performance (depending of the load) then top Z architecture machines.
--
Waldek Hebisch
hebisch@math.uni.wroc.pl
| |
|
|
Waldek Hebisch wrote:
>
> Using standard software a single PC can typeset about thousend pages
> per second. A PC database can easily deliver 20 thousend rows per
> second. So, a single PC can generate content for millions of checks
> per hour. It looks that the bottleneck is actual printing: you need
> a sizeable printer farm to handle that load.
>
> Granted, mainframes have bigger IO capacity that desktop PC. But you
> just have to size things correctly, if not desktop then server machines.
> For highest load it looks that IBM Power serwers are the best -- from
> data sheets it looks that top Power machines offer 2-10 times better
> performance (depending of the load) then top Z architecture machines.
>
Could you cite some sources for your numbers? I find them to be rather
on the high end.
| |
|
|
docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
> In article <ziE_e.109279$4i6.86064@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>,
> Defaultuser <Defaultuser@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> According to http://www.m-w.com a bungalow *is* a house, usually.
>
A bit of UK vs US terminology. In the UK a house has multiple floor
levels with stairs (and/or other means of ascending) and a bungalow is
a single-floored dwelling place. I think.
| |
| howard.brazee@cusys.edu 2005-09-29, 6:55 pm |
| On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 21:54:39 GMT, "Defaultuser"
<Defaultuser@hotmail.com> wrote:
>'You can do anything in a bungalow exactly as you can in a house' - doesn't
>mean I ponder why I've never seen one with an stair lift.
You got me to look up "bungalow", which I assumed meant "small house".
I have never come across the term "stair lift" before.
Apparently a bungalow is a "small house with a single story". I
would assume it can have small stairs, as long as they are in a single
story, so I am assuming a "stair lift" is a flight of stairs going
from one story to another.
| |
| Defaultuser 2005-09-29, 6:55 pm |
| <howard.brazee@cusys.edu> wrote in message
news:oaeoj19aee326csvr7mepgtd9d8ruid2k9@
4ax.com...
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 21:54:39 GMT, "Defaultuser"
> <Defaultuser@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> You got me to look up "bungalow", which I assumed meant "small house".
> I have never come across the term "stair lift" before.
>
> Apparently a bungalow is a "small house with a single story". I
> would assume it can have small stairs, as long as they are in a single
> story, so I am assuming a "stair lift" is a flight of stairs going
> from one story to another.
Actually, a stair lift is essentially a comfortable chair that is attached
to a rail on the wall that enables people with difficulty walking to sit and
be "stair lifted" mechanically. It's like a ski lift for the home but it's
not as much fun coming down.
As an aside. Some of the Brits may have heard of http://www.billwiggin.com/
the Shadow Secretary of State for Wales, Shadow Minister for the
Environment, and Conservative Member of Parliament for the constituency of
Leominster. He's a political big wig, no pun intended.
He has been called Bungalow Bill as it is said that he "doesn't have much
upstairs" if you know what I mean.....
In history there have been a number of Bungalow Bills - the man who married
Alexis..no wait, that's Joan Collins in real life.....and of course the
famous Bungalow Bill, what did you kill....a case of John Lennon thinking
people with guns shooting defenseless critturs weren't too bright....he came
to learn that more up close later on in life, unfortunately....
J.
| |
| howard.brazee@cusys.edu 2005-09-29, 6:55 pm |
| On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:27:45 GMT, "Defaultuser"
<Defaultuser@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Actually, a stair lift is essentially a comfortable chair that is attached
>to a rail on the wall that enables people with difficulty walking to sit and
>be "stair lifted" mechanically. It's like a ski lift for the home but it's
>not as much fun coming down.
There's one in _The Farmer's Daughter_.
| |
| Richard 2005-09-29, 6:55 pm |
| > In the UK a house has multiple floor levels with stairs
While most houses in the UK do have multiple floor levels, in what way
is this a _requirement_ to be called a 'house' ?
> a bungalow is a single-floored dwelling place.
Unless it has had a loft conversion. But even if it is a bungalow it is
still a house if it is a place for people, especially a single family,
to live.
BTW most houses in New Zealand are single story, though mine* has 3,
the original single level, a basement office and a 'pop-top'. In NZ a
house would only be called a bungalow if it resembled the original
Indian meaning of a small native house with verandas (another indian
word), and even then it would most likely be called a batch (North
Island - short for Bachelor house) or crib (South Island).
*Targetting data: Google Earth 36 42'40.90"S 174 44'18.78"E
| |
| Waldek Hebisch 2005-09-29, 6:55 pm |
| Mike <MPBrede@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Waldek Hebisch wrote:
>
> Could you cite some sources for your numbers? I find them to be rather
> on the high end.
>
For typesetting on PC I just use a pipline:
flat file -> Perl Script -> TeX -> dvips
and just measured the speed. For database speed I forgot the
location of benchmark page.
Info on z9-109 from (but since data is incomplete I guesstimate
based on earlier models):
http://www-03.ibm.com/servers/systems/systemz9/z9109
Info on p5 595:
http://www-03.ibm.com/servers/eserv...ighend/595.html
z9-109 page does not disclose clock speed but following:
http://www-03.ibm.com/servers/eserver/zseries/z990/
I see that z990 uses 1.2 GHz (0.83 ns) clock. Considering that clock
speeds were changing slowly in recent two years I guess that z9-109
has much slower clock then 1.9 GHz in p5 595. Also I guess that p5 595
(like the lower end models) is highly superscalar (3-5 instructions per
clock) while Z architecture is probably doing 1-2 instructions per clock
(it used to be single dispatch and comparisons of models suggest that it
still may be the case). p5 595 has 64 processors, top z9-109 has 38
(with 54 scheduled for November). So p5 595 seem to have much higher
instruction rate than z9-109. Memory and IO capacity of p5 595 seem
to be high enough to keep ahead also on data intensive load.
--
Waldek Hebisch
hebisch@math.uni.wroc.pl
| |
|
| In article <1128007814.086722.296790@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
Mike <MPBrede@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
>A bit of UK vs US terminology. In the UK a house has multiple floor
>levels with stairs (and/or other means of ascending) and a bungalow is
>a single-floored dwelling place. I think.
According to my copy of the OED (Compact Edition, 1981 USA printing, Vol
I, Pg 295, reduced page 1178, col iii) it is defined as 'A one-storied
house (or temporary building, e.g. a summer-house), lightly built, usually
with a thatched roof.' ... but what do *they* know about UK terminology,
anyhow?
(Interestingly enough the derivation is from bangla, 'understood to be
identical with the adj. use of the same form, meaning 'belonging to
Bengal'.')
DD
| |
|
| In article <1128028522.689548.314030@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Richard <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote:
[snip]
>BTW most houses in New Zealand are single story, though mine* has 3,
>the original single level, a basement office and a 'pop-top'.
I once lived in a three-story house... there was an parable, a fairy-tale
and a myth.
DD
| |
| Defaultuser 2005-09-30, 6:55 pm |
| And whilst (arch) we are all in rather AR mood....
A mainframe can be be (also) :
"a large fast computer that can handle multiple tasks concurrently"
which I think means that my desktop is lexically speaking, a mainframe AND a
PC though one could argue that the concurrency is built into the OS and
perhaps my OS of choice doesn't actually do concurrent processing as much as
time slicing - but the fact is that my machine can more than likely handle
it.
My example therefore was at least as reasonable as the original.
Please replace house with "house with stairs" - I didn't qualify the house
with specific type in the original comment as I believed the context would
have suggested that it be a non-bungalow house with stairs. I considered
saying multi-storey or just non bungalow, but a maisonette is mult-storey
and wouldn't have a stair lift either (in most examples that I have seen it
wouldn't).
Given that you have an unabridged OED - is it preferable that it be
multi-storey or multistory ? The latter seems to indicate an americanization
to me as it is a spelling to which I was unaccustomed prior to this somewhat
bizarre thread.
I was thinking about this (Lord knows why) but I wondered why anyone had
terminals anymore anyway - and if they did, I'm sure the terminal could have
a built in screensaver like my digital box or DVD player to prevent that age
old "why does every screen look like the main menu in this light" problem
associated with the old terminals.
J.
<docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:dhinds$pbl$1@reader1.panix.com...[color=darkred]
> In article <1128007814.086722.296790@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> Mike <MPBrede@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> According to my copy of the OED (Compact Edition, 1981 USA printing, Vol
> I, Pg 295, reduced page 1178, col iii) it is defined as 'A one-storied
> house (or temporary building, e.g. a summer-house), lightly built, usually
> with a thatched roof.' ... but what do *they* know about UK terminology,
> anyhow?
>
> (Interestingly enough the derivation is from bangla, 'understood to be
> identical with the adj. use of the same form, meaning 'belonging to
> Bengal'.')
>
> DD
>
| |
| howard.brazee@cusys.edu 2005-09-30, 6:55 pm |
| On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 13:36:06 GMT, "Defaultuser"
<Defaultuser@hotmail.com> wrote:
>A mainframe can be be (also) :
>
>"a large fast computer that can handle multiple tasks concurrently"
"large" is relative. I'm not sure mainframes have to be fast
depending on what that word means - (create real-time graphics vs
allow a hundred real time users to check their databases
simultaneously)
>which I think means that my desktop is lexically speaking, a mainframe AND a
>PC though one could argue that the concurrency is built into the OS and
>perhaps my OS of choice doesn't actually do concurrent processing as much as
>time slicing - but the fact is that my machine can more than likely handle it.
Mainframes do time slicing as well, and PCs perform concurrent tasks
as well.
>My example therefore was at least as reasonable as the original.
>
>Please replace house with "house with stairs" - I didn't qualify the house
>with specific type in the original comment as I believed the context would
>have suggested that it be a non-bungalow house with stairs. I considered
>saying multi-storey or just non bungalow, but a maisonette is mult-storey
>and wouldn't have a stair lift either (in most examples that I have seen it
>wouldn't).
I had to look up another word:
Quick definitions (maisonette)
# noun: a small house
# noun: a self-contained apartment (usually on two floors) in a
larger house and with its own entrance from the outside
• noun a set of rooms for living in, typically on two storeys of a
larger building.
You must be using the 2nd definition, in which a chair lift would be
rare.
This illustrates the problem in pre-conceived definitions. The 1st
and 3rd definitions can have stair lifts. And mainframes can have
time slicing, and PCs can have multiple processors, and mainframes can
run Linux, and PCs can run batch CoBOL...
>Given that you have an unabridged OED - is it preferable that it be
>multi-storey or multistory ? The latter seems to indicate an americanization
>to me as it is a spelling to which I was unaccustomed prior to this somewhat
>bizarre thread.
>
>I was thinking about this (Lord knows why) but I wondered why anyone had
>terminals anymore anyway - and if they did, I'm sure the terminal could have
>a built in screensaver like my digital box or DVD player to prevent that age
>old "why does every screen look like the main menu in this light" problem
>associated with the old terminals.
Hardware technology has improved. A new PC won't have burn-in if it
stays on all the time without a screen saver. (Of course old
terminals could be turned off).
| |
| Richard 2005-09-30, 6:55 pm |
| > I'm not sure mainframes have to be fast depending on what that word means
The word 'mainframe' just refers to the frames used to house the
equipment. Electronic and electrmechanical equipment of many types:
power stations, telephone exchange, radio transmitters, radar, .. were
built into frames and when covers were applied these became cabinets.
When it was small it just required a single frame. When it was large it
was housed in several frames, the central part of which (CPU in the
case of computers) was usually referred to as the main frame.
As is often the case the term was used correctly by some who understood
how the term was derived, and then misused by people who made the wrong
connection (managers usually). A 'mainframe computer' is simply one
that is housed in the most important frame of an installation, the
other frames being peripheral to it.
These days of rack mounts the 'main frame' may hold dozens or hundreds
of blades, or even shelves of clustered PCs, while the peripheral
frames hold racks of firewalls, routers and modems. A 'z Series' may
just be a small box sitting on a desk.
| |
|
| In article <abb%e.122629$xl6.42790@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>,
Defaultuser <Defaultuser@hotmail.com> wrote:
>And whilst (arch) we are all in rather AR mood....
>
>
>A mainframe can be be (also) :
>
>"a large fast computer that can handle multiple tasks concurrently"
>
>which I think means that my desktop is lexically speaking, a mainframe AND a
>PC though one could argue that the concurrency is built into the OS and
>perhaps my OS of choice doesn't actually do concurrent processing as much as
>time slicing - but the fact is that my machine can more than likely handle
>it.
A mainframe can be (also):
'a box in which logical processes sometimes occur'
.... in which case the cardboard home of a street-living schizophrenic
qualifies. Isn't what can be made to fall out of a carefully-chosen
definition just wonderful?
>
>My example therefore was at least as reasonable as the original.
My example is at least as reasonable as some of the logical processes
found in the cardboard home mentioned above... and that takes into account
how the Space Aliens, at times, steal my brainwaves and implant them into
the heads of hack journalists.
[snip]
>Given that you have an unabridged OED - is it preferable that it be
>multi-storey or multistory ? The latter seems to indicate an americanization
>to me as it is a spelling to which I was unaccustomed prior to this somewhat
>bizarre thread.
I find that it is composed of two volumes and bunches of definitions, no
matter what I prefer it to be... so in order to limit my disappointments I
try not to expect otherwise.
As for what it lists for 'storey'... hmmmm... vol II, p. 3071, sub-page
1034, col iii shows:
Storey, Storeyed: see STORY sb2, STORIED.
DD
| |
| Lueko Willms 2005-10-01, 7:55 am |
| .. On 27.09.05
wrote news@mirlitone.com (Mirlitone)
on /COMP/LANG/COBOL
in 1127828371.893554.170890@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
about Re: mainframe career advice
n> you're right, but why does a firm would hire me if i don't have what
n> it wants?
n> There's **must** be a reason that hardly no one want to work with
n> mainframe to start a career.
One reason for both: mainframe skills are no longer taught at the
universities.
If you decide to take that job, try to generalize everything you
learn, e.g. in database design and so on.
Bon courage!
Lüko Willms http://www.willms-edv.de
/--------- L.WILLMS@jpberlin.de -- Alle Rechte vorbehalten --
Der Verleger hat ihn in effigie vor sein Werk aufhängen lassen. -G.C.Lichtenberg
| |
| Joe Zitzelberger 2005-10-01, 6:55 pm |
| In article <11jim03f43bsj47@news.supernews.com>,
"HeyBub" <heybubNOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mirlitone wrote:
>
> It may surprise you to learn that mainframes are alive and well.
>
> How many PCs does it take to print the payroll checks for all government
> workers? For Air France?
Huh? Just one.
It is the heavy duty industrial printer and envelope stuffer that does
all the work. Formatting a file of 50 million check sized pages and
sending it to a serial port is pretty trivial.
| |
| HeyBub 2005-10-01, 6:55 pm |
| Mirlitone wrote:
> you're right, but why does a firm would hire me if i don't have what
> it wants? If i choose maiframe now, i think i'll be stuck because i
> won't be abble to be hired in a job where i use something else. It's
> not that i can't learn a new technology, it's simply that no one
> would hire me if the techology i know is useless.
Virtually everyone over 40 who, today, is working on PCs, started out on
mainframes. Inasmuch as the mainframe of yore is very similar in capability
to the PC of today, one could say we programmers haven't progressed much.
>
> There's **must** be a reason that hardly no one want to work with
> mainframe to start a career.
Pauline Kael, a CBS executive, dismayed over the election of Richard Nixon
in 1972, said:
"I can't believe Nixon won! Nobody I know voted for him."
Which said more about her than the voting public.
>
> I speak from what i know, things may be different elsewhere... ;-)
| |
| Richard 2005-10-01, 6:55 pm |
| > Virtually everyone over 40 who, today, is working on PCs, started out on
mainframes.
Nonsense. 'PCs' started 30 years ago with CP/M machines, and others,
in the mid 70s. Perhaps you didn't notice them until 20 years later.
It may be that "everyone over 50", or most, may have started with
mainframes, but even then there are and were in the early 70s, many
machines that are neither 'personal' nor 'mainframe'. 1130, Series 1,
System 3, Cogar, many 'workstations', PDP 8s, Wang desktops.
> one could say we programmers haven't progressed much.
Speak for yourself. Maybe you have not progressed.
| |
| Christopher Pomasl 2005-10-02, 6:55 pm |
| On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 09:56:23 -0600, howard.brazee wrote:
> On 27 Sep 2005 08:03:10 -0700, "Mirlitone" <news@mirlitone.com> wrote:
>
>
> Toys vary. For my wife - vacations are toys that matter. I like
> golf. We both like spending money on our grandkids.
>
> If we moved away from our grandkids, we would need more money to pay
> for that particular pastime (or to compensate us for not having as
> much time to spend with them). But if we moved where it was easier
> to take vacations, my wife's toy would be more affordable.
You know, I think think THIS is the crux of the matter, right here.
While I don't know if Howard is a MF programmer, his comment about
grand-children hits home. The Mainframe programmer is aging to the point
where IBM is actually going to start recruiting college aged programmers
to fill the attrition rate.
Now lets look at the mainframe. There are more MIPs in mainframes now
than ever before and IBM is selling them like hotcakes. There is a BIG
market for mainframes and a dwindling population to run them.
If you look at it this way: mainframes have been around for 40+ years
with the consumate amount of code running on them, most of that COBOL
code. I think I have seen a statistic that there is still more COBOL
running on MFs than all other languages combined. (although I believe
that Europe tends to like PL/1 as a programming langauge.)
People have been touting the demise of the MF since I started with them in
the mid 80's. They aren't going away anytime soon and with the dwindling
population to run them, the supply of programmers will exceed the demand
and that means the salaries will likely increase...and/or be offshored.
Since MFs cannot really be run by remote, the local business will still
need systems programmers and operators in the local community.
Bottom line is that MFs are not dead and they run most of the biggest
companies in the world. Technology is catching up with the MF also with
Linux running there, IP etc. You can run a really world class web
presence on a mainframe as well if not better than anywhere else.
Chris
Senior Software Engineer
Computer Asscoiates, International, inc.
| |
| HeyBub 2005-10-02, 6:55 pm |
| X-Priority: 3
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Richard wrote:
>
> Nonsense. 'PCs' started 30 years ago with CP/M machines, and others,
> in the mid 70s. Perhaps you didn't notice them until 20 years later.
> It may be that "everyone over 50", or most, may have started with
> mainframes, but even then there are and were in the early 70s, many
> machines that are neither 'personal' nor 'mainframe'. 1130, Series 1,
> System 3, Cogar, many 'workstations', PDP 8s, Wang desktops.
>
>
> Speak for yourself. Maybe you have not progressed.
You left out the colon after the word "Nonsense."
| |
| Defaultuser 2005-10-03, 3:55 am |
| "Christopher Pomasl" <pomasl-NOSpam@starband.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.10.02.15.15.40.176570@starband.net...
> On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 09:56:23 -0600, howard.brazee wrote:
>
I know this is two posts back...but why not make something more local a
vacation? Distance doesn't have to be a factor.
[color=darkred]
> You know, I think think THIS is the crux of the matter, right here.
> While I don't know if Howard is a MF programmer, his comment about
> grand-children hits home. The Mainframe programmer is aging to the point
> where IBM is actually going to start recruiting college aged programmers
> to fill the attrition rate.
>
Yes, they say this at the same time as they are globally offering mainframe
programmers "packages" and hiring them in South Africa...ever get the
feeling that perhaps they are just stoking and fueling the z/OS market ?
Perhaps they want to increase consulting fees. It's true of every american
company right now - innovation is greater abroad where the focus is not so
heavy in the technology services arena. I think it's a much more exciting
environment elsewhere in the world (until the giant corps swallow up the
little corps everywhere).
The mainframe of new is not the mainframe of old anyhow. There *are* many
new opportunities in the mainframe environment and IBM *is* doing a good job
of selling mainframes. There is no point knowing COBOL and JCL and thinking
that this is what you need...you need to understand solutions and
architectures. It's solutioning that is the sellable commodity, not
mainframe skills. You can substiture mainframe with Java as well....it's
not a mainframe statement.
I've seen some important developments recently that are making me more
*ahem* sympathetic to Pete Dashwood's view of where IT are going....
> People have been touting the demise of the MF since I started with them in
> the mid 80's. They aren't going away anytime soon and with the dwindling
> population to run them, the supply of programmers will exceed the demand
> and that means the salaries will likely increase...and/or be offshored.
> Since MFs cannot really be run by remote, the local business will still
> need systems programmers and operators in the local community.
Why do people assume that the only country with baby boomers is the US? Why
wouldn't China also have the same crisis? There +is+ a consequence to the
one child law.
> Bottom line is that MFs are not dead and they run most of the biggest
> companies in the world. Technology is catching up with the MF also with
> Linux running there, IP etc. You can run a really world class web
> presence on a mainframe as well if not better than anywhere else.
Someone at C-A would hope that is true :-) But I agree.
> Chris
> Senior Software Engineer
> Computer Asscoiates, International, inc.
| |
| howard.brazee@cusys.edu 2005-10-03, 6:55 pm |
| On Sun, 02 Oct 2005 09:15:49 -0600, Christopher Pomasl
<pomasl-NOSpam@starband.net> wrote:
>You know, I think think THIS is the crux of the matter, right here.
>While I don't know if Howard is a MF programmer, his comment about
>grand-children hits home. The Mainframe programmer is aging to the point
>where IBM is actually going to start recruiting college aged programmers
>to fill the attrition rate.
When I started, companies with mainframes didn't have a supply of
labor, trained by our education system at other's expense. They had
to train their own labor.
For a while EDS required all of their new hires to sign an IOU before
taking training. If they didn't stick with EDS long enough, they had
to pay them for that training they received.
When the fogies retire, the expense of training replacements will add
to the cost of running mainframes, but there will still be cost
advantages.
| |
| Bill Davis 2005-10-15, 3:55 am |
| There has been a lot of advice given below. It's all true... depending on
the person, place and situation.
Now my opinion:
IBM is a huge company that can never be thought to be out of the race.
Like many large organizations, it may not turn around or wake-up to a new
idea immediately, but when it does, watch out! IBM has taken bold steps to
grow its one faltering mainframe business. It has even gone to the trouble
of developing/acquiring products to bundle with hardware to give buyers
better alternatives to expensive licensed software development utilities and
management packages from Computer Associates, Compuware and others.
Is mainframe the way to go? I'd say that depends on the kind of place
you want to work. Mainframe skills generally will be most in demand by
large companies in urban centers. I would pick a company that had people
working the spectrum, one that is open to picking the platform and
architechure that is best for the application, not because "this is the way
we've always done it here". The situation in France could be quite
different from the US market, but I think every market is being affected by
the possibility of out-sourcing and offshoring to eastern countries. You
didn't mention the type of company. Many in France, I believe, have made
long and interesting careers with Sogeti or one of its affiliates in Europe.
I worked for Cap Gemini America, now Sogeti and/or CapGemini/Ernst Young,
for several years myself.
One thing is for sure, if you are ambitious and have an idea where you
want to be, I probably don't have to tell you that you have to have a plan
to get there. If you don't think office politics is important, think again.
Learn how to deal with the politics. If you want something, you have to go
for it. Don't wait for someone to offer it to you.
Your career has to be managed like any other project. Sometimes it will
go smoothly and on-time, other times there will be delays and setbacks.
That's life.
Bon chance, mon ami.
Bill Davis
"Mirlitone" <news@mirlitone.com> wrote in message
news:1127825963.895553.270230@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> hi there, sorry if it's not the appropriate goup...
>
> I've just earned my Master degree of Computer Science, and i'm looking
> for a job. i've carried out some internships in JAVA, C++ and a bit of
> .NET.
>
> Now it seems that i can't get a job in J2EE with my J2SE background, so
> i've received a proposal in the mainframe area. This job comes with a
> training program, since i'm completely new in this field.
>
> Do you think mainframe is a good option to start my career with ? Don't
> you think i might be trapped in by working with these dying
> technologies?
>
> BTW i'm in France, and the salary is 24.5 US$ after tax.
>
> thanks in advance for your comments
>
>
| |
| El Pistolero 2005-10-15, 6:55 pm |
| I'm coming into this thread late and have not read it all, but I thought
I'd toss in a couple of responses to items in Chris' post:
Christopher Pomasl wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 09:56:23 -0600, howard.brazee wrote:
> I don't know if Howard is a MF programmer, his comment about
> grand-children hits home. The Mainframe programmer is aging to the point
> where IBM is actually going to start recruiting college aged programmers
> to fill the attrition rate.
Yet MANY colleges are not only not on said bandwagon, but are actively
avoiding it, e.g. Blinn College, Texas, one of my part-time employers.
The movers and shakers, mostly in their late-fifties, early sixties,
cannot see beyond the screens of their desktops and, in some cases, have
been, shall we say "induced" by a certain proximity to a nameless
company in Redmond, to discourage education in MF.
>
> ... mainframes have been around for 40+ years
Will you give me 60+ ? Aunt Gracie (aka Admiral Grace Hopper, Ph.D.) was
working on what I'd call a mainframe well before 1960.
> ...I think I have seen a statistic that there is still more COBOL
> running on MFs than all other languages combined.
True on its face: I worked in multiple, broad spectrum, environments in
several countries over the last 50 years and COBOL remains king. My
current consulting contracts, mostly in banking and insurance, but some
in manufacturing and several in sub-rosa military are 100% COBOL backend
with Linux, PHP, and other things as the presentation layer.
>
> People have been touting the demise of the MF since I started with them in
> the mid 80's. They aren't going away anytime soon
Right on, bro'! (Except it was 1969 when I heard the first "mainframes
are doomed" pap.)
> Since MFs cannot really be run by remote, the local business will still
> need systems programmers and operators in the local community.
Hmmm, they can be administered, including all SYSPROG functions, very
adequately from a remote site (in fact I do two machines that way). It
is the local operations that cannot be totally replaced yet. Once backup
tapes become history, everything having been moved to remote secure
fibre -connected archives, even op's can go away (until there is a
hardware failure, because it still takes a John Dugan or a Clyde Wise to
go plug the new boards in).
>
> Bottom line is that MFs are not dead and they run most of the biggest
> companies in the world.
Yep, well said.
>
> Computer Asscoiates, International, inc.
I have never been a CA fan, but Chris (and most of the CA folks I have
met "in the trenches") speaks the truth. Our colleges are failing us and
we are losing work to that, as much to the willingness of workers in
non-USA places to work for what we consider poverty wages. Greed and
stupidity: go study Roman history, for we are following them right down
the tubes with our imperial attitude. The next "super power"? obvious,
on the face of it.
| |
| El Pistolero 2005-10-15, 6:55 pm |
| Defaultuser wrote:
> ... It's solutioning that is the sellable commodity,
and that is the full measure of marketing bullshit that is killing US
skilled workers. Run that phrase through a semantic algebra analysis
and it comes up with a big fat zero for meaning. It is an excuse for
greed, without allowance for the fact that there are thousands of highly
experienced computer professionals (note careful avoidance of the
acronym "IT") who will work for any reasonable wage that is in keeping
with the cost of living in the country of their residence. Is the USA
way out of line? Yes, but is the solution the unending accumulation of
wealth to those with the power to threaten and steal, often at the point
of a gun (and, yes, I have worked for the IRS)? I don't think so.
| |
| Defaultuser 2005-10-15, 6:55 pm |
| "El Pistolero" <Merlin43PhD@Netscape.Net> wrote in message
news:11l2f7cq4o6fkd3@corp.supernews.com...
> Defaultuser wrote:
> and that is the full measure of marketing bullshit that is killing US
> skilled workers.
and it's that attitude towards said bullshit that makes you an unlikely
choice for hiring
learning the contents of a dictionary doesn't mean you can communicate
defaultuser
| |
| Christopher Pomasl 2005-10-15, 9:55 pm |
| On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 12:21:43 -0500, El Pistolero wrote:
<SNIP>
> Our colleges are failing us and
> we are losing work to that, as much to the willingness of workers in
> non-USA places to work for what we consider poverty wages. Greed and
> stupidity: go study Roman history, for we are following them right down
> the tubes with our imperial attitude. The next "super power"? obvious,
> on the face of it.
CA has and Platinum Technology before them, been instrumental in sending
through developers to Northern Illinois U. They had a Assembler program
there that was feeded by the needs of Platinum Technology at the time.
I'm not sure we are still feeding new developer into NIU but we did get
some trained tht way. IBM is planning/doing a similar program with Marist
University near their HQ in Poughkipsie, NY.
When in need, feed students to a program even if you need to design the
program for the university in question.....
Chris
Computer Associates
PS. I wasn't a CA fan until about two years after the aquisition of Pti
late in 1999. I think some of Pti's way of doing business helped to
influence CA to be a better company for its customers, rather than for
itself.
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2005-11-23, 7:55 am |
|
"Defaultuser" <Defaultuser@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:PQD_e.113134$xl6.84344@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
>
> "Mirlitone" <news@mirlitone.com> wrote in message
> news:1127828371.893554.170890@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> I'm not going to get Pete started but I read a quote the other day from
> someone who works at a rather large company building modeling and coding
> tools.
Knowing how to use these tools is becoming more important than the ability
to code. (No, I haven't "started" :-) I just don't get time to read CLC
much at the moment, as you can see from the timestamp on this...I had a
quick browse for the first time in w s, and realised I'm missing very
little, then I saw your comment above...<g> )
The project I am managing at the moment is using Websphere and Java with the
Rational toolset (by the way, I'm trying to get A/Ps and testers at the
moment... If anyone fancies a couple of years in NZ and is prepared to get
into OO and Java, write me privately. Some of what I need doesn't involve
coding so you don't need in-depth Java...). I have been quite surprised to
find that the Toolset has taken over many of the traditional functions that
were the domain of the Analyst and Programmer.
It is kind of refreshing (for me, at least) to find no resistance whatsoever
when I decide that RAD will be used and an Object Oriented approach will be
taken. (It is sensible in this instance, for reasons which I won't go into
here; suffice to say, if we employed the waterfall SDLC approach it would
take around 4 years. We expect to implement in 18 months. Ths is possible
because JAD timeboxes can be run in parallel, like asynchronous, parallel
processing on a computer. The whole approach is much more flexible and gives
me options I wouldn't have on the SDLC approach. The Rational toolset
implements RUP (Rational's Unified Procedures) and this "guides" the
gathering of requirements by Business Analysts, the creation of deliverables
based on Use Cases, the management of gaps in requirements, and the control
of changes to requirements and gaps. Another partof the toolset controls
versions of source, binaries, and documents. All very good stuff.
The general gist was that people are threatened by the new tools
> because they see themselves as Java/Cobol/Unix/J2SE practitioners. They
> are threatened by anything that removes the need for that low level skill.
Here we come to project/site "culture" again. None of my current people
feel threatened in this way. There is such a large mix of skill requirements
at both the Analyst and Programmer level (by the time you add in web skills)
that programmers have so many strings to their bows they are unlikely to be
unemployed. Besides, these are bright young people who enjoy what they are
doing, and are really pleased to extend their skill sets. They have no
problem with acquiring new skills and examining new ideas. I am totally
drained by this work, but I am having the time of my life and thoroughly
enjoying working with them <g>.(Fortunately, they seem to enjoy working with
me, too.)
> However, what people are failing to understand is that it's not what you
> know, it's your ability to provide a solution.
I wholeheartedly endorse that statement. Solutions are where it is at. That
means tools, methodologies, generators, hand coding, people skills, analysis
skills, whatever it takes to provide the solution. (Funny, I thought I heard
an echo... it was saying "the right tools for the job..." <g> ) Object
Oriented technology and RAD approaches are just one way of doing it; they
happen to be right for this particular implementation. Certainly, today's
toolsets are beyond anything we could have dreamed of back in the old days.
(For "old days", read "before OO"...) IDEs are taken as read. The concept of
developing code as a separate entity from the system is just not
understood... it HAS to be integrated. Everything is drag and drop and point
and click... not a green screen in sight <g>.
The productivity is fantastic. We used to think if people did 100 lines of
clean, properly documented, working source code a day, that was good. I've
seen these people generate 2000 lines by drag and drop and do it in minutes.
Tools. Makes all the difference. (No, I do not ascribe to LOC as a measure
of Programmer productivity, any more than I believe in Function Points or
the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny... it was just an example.) They don't
even code SQL any more... entity objects do all the database stuff; you
don't need to know where your data is stored... just instantiate a data
object of the right type and forget it. (I ran some SQL traces to see what
it did, and was pretty surprised. <g> )
>With experience you get more to draw from. Remember: Software Engineers
>can have a career where coders will have ever shortening contracts.
>
Absolutely.
> Using a twist on the hammer analogy.....if someone builds an pneumatic
> hammer, it doesn't mean the house will build itself.
>
> Learning is fun...to me that's better than doing the same old routine.
>
There are many people who feel that way. It's a delight to work with some of
them.
Pete.
| |
|
| In article <3uj8lcF119ia5U1@individual.net>,
Pete Dashwood <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
>"Defaultuser" <Defaultuser@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:PQD_e.113134$xl6.84344@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
[snip]
>There are many people who feel that way. It's a delight to work with some of
>them.
It is even more delightful to find companies that are willing to pay
people for their ability to learn... would that I might see more.
DD
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2005-11-24, 3:55 am |
|
<docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:dm1quf$ra9$1@reader2.panix.com...
>
> In article <3uj8lcF119ia5U1@individual.net>,
> Pete Dashwood <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
> It is even more delightful to find companies that are willing to pay
> people for their ability to learn... would that I might see more.
>
Well, I'm prepared to trade the fact that they have some basic required
skills, for the chance to expand their skill sets, so it isn't totally
altruistic. :-) Nevertheless, people who are quick to learn and open
minded about it are valuable. In this company, that value is recognised.
We have a good mix of permanent and contract people on my project and there
is no distinction made at a personal or professional level. I can honestly
say that of all the companies I have worked for, in all the cultures I have
lived and worked in, I have been most welcomed on this site. (That applies
to both the people I report to and the people who report to me; universal
support, friendliness and warmth. It is diverse ethnically, sexually, and in
terms of age, with people from Europe and Asia, as well as NZ, all working
happily together; the common bond is the challenge of the work, and getting
it done.
They also had the most stringent selection process of any company I have
ever worked for, and I had 8 referees on 3 continents (none of whom I had
ever asked to act as referees before, so I had no idea what they'd say about
me :-)), phoned up and asked questions about me. There were also 3 x 2hour
interviews with individuals and a group firing questions. The point is, that
this company waited for several months to get the person they considered
right for the job (there were a number of other applicants who were
interviewed), and that "rightness" was not just based on technical
competence; they were looking to get management worthy of their team.
I think if more companies took more care in selecting managers, there
probably wouldn't be half the problems we read about in CLC. (See Management
Wars thread, in this forum.)
I further believe that the principles I have proposed in that same thread
are workable and useful. I practise them every day. It is rewarding (and not
just in financial terms) to see people glad to get to the office, enjoying
the challenges of their work, and winning... We have crises and problems
like every other project, but the difference is in how they are dealt with.
I have been there seven ws. I have never seen anyone abuse a colleague,
lose their temper, or even raise a voice. There is a fair bit of humour and
banter but none of it is ever meant to wound. I have run presentations and
discussions where people listen attentively, take notes, then ask
intelligent questions. Discussion is lively and cases are made or lost, but
egos are not admitted to the meeting room. I value the inputs of all my
team; "None of us is as smart as all of us", and that includes me...:-)
Best of all, I'm learning and getting paid for it too...
(Now all we need to do is deliver... :-))
Thanks to the several people who took up my offer and mailed me privately.
I'll set wheels in motion and get back to each of you. Remote working may be
an option, but we'll look at all the possibilities. I particularly need J2EE
people. And experience with Rational tools (Reqpro, ClearQuest, ClearCase,
and Rose) is really desirable (though not essential if you have the other
things I want... attitude, ability, experience.) I would really love to get
some COBOL people into this environment, but you MUST have good knowledge of
OO and you MUST have the ability to pick up Java and web skills like
scripting, (JavaScript, VBScript, Perl), and web page development.
To finish on topic:
(It's been a while since I made any predictions here so here are some that
may make you smile...:-))
1. Mainframes will be re-invented as powerful servers and integrated with
the network.
2.Yes, MicroFocus will be gone in 15 years unless they change their crazy
policies, or diversify away from COBOL.The main thing holding them together
right now is IBM Visual Age :-). And IBM have an increasing stake in Java...
3. Fujitsu are also unlikely to continue supporting COBOL as more and more
existing code is refactored every year. Fujitsu USA and Australia are unable
to support the existing products properly, right now. And their pricing is
driving people to other alternatives. Both these companies should realise
that COBOL is no longer the only game in town; those days are gone. People
have a choice. If they are not encouraged to stay with COBOL development,
they simply won't. Small developers and software houses are being squeezed
out by ludicrous pricing and poor support, from both companies. (OK, I know
there are guys here who work for both companies, and they are good people
doing their very best. No disrespect is intended to any individuals; I have
to call 'em like I see 'em, and these comments are based on first hand
experience working with customers of both companies.)
4. COBOL will be outsourced offshore until the existing applications are
refactored to something else. Tools to do this will get better and better.
5. The sub-continent will experience a COBOL slump in around 10 years, but
by then they will have diversified their skill base into solution provision
so will continue "Business as usual".
6. I am mindful that, last century, I predicted no widespread COBOL use by
2015. I stand by it. You can observe what is happening and draw your own
conclusions.
7. The next COBOL standard will take less than 17 years to be delivered.
(I'm not taking bets on how MUCH less... :-))
8. The next COBOL standard may well be the last.
9. If you want a career in computing, do a computing science course and
forget about programming languages. Solution delivery will be the future.
Tools to deliver solutions will just get better and better. You will need
adaptability, enthusiasm, and a broad skill base.
10. If you want to make money and retire early, don't go into computing.
Look at accounting, medicine, rock and pop music, law, money market
brokerage, real estate, and undesirable industries like sewage treatment,
industrial waste disposal, and garbage collection (as a company owner, not
as a dustman...).
Good luck!
Pete.
| |
| charles hottel 2005-11-25, 6:55 pm |
| I am currently learning Java and the next logical step to me seems to be to
learn J2EE and Websphere. What books, web resources or other resources
would you recommend for learning J2EE, Websphere and Rational toolset?
Most of the books I have read so far have discussed basic Java, Java
servlets and JSP. I read Just Java 5th ed. (Dec 2001) by Peter van der
Linden which discussed J2EE and Java Beans a little, but he said he could
not recommend any J2EE books at that time, so I have been concerned about
getting some "good" references. I also have his 6th edition to learn some of
the new Java features but in a quick scan I do not see any J2EE stuff and
the Java Bean chapter seems to have been removed .
Good luck on your project.
<Top Post no more follows.>
<snip>
"Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3uj8lcF119ia5U1@individual.net...
>
> The project I am managing at the moment is using Websphere and Java with
> the Rational toolset (by the way, I'm trying to get A/Ps and testers at
> the moment... If anyone fancies a couple of years in NZ and is prepared to
> get into OO and Java, write me privately. Some of what I need doesn't
> involve coding so you don't need in-depth Java...). I have been quite
> surprised to find that the Toolset has taken over many of the traditional
> functions that were the domain of the Analyst and Programmer.
<snip>
| |
| charles hottel 2005-11-26, 3:55 am |
| am currently learning Java and the next logical step to me seems to be to
learn J2EE and Websphere. What books, web resources or other resources
would you recommend for learning J2EE, Websphere and Rational toolset?
Most of the books I have read so far have discussed basic Java, Java
servlets and JSP. I read Just Java 5th ed. (Dec 2001) by Peter van der
Linden which discussed J2EE and Java Beans a little, but he said he could
not recommend any J2EE books at that time, so I have been concerned about
getting some "good" references. I also have his 6th edition to learn some of
the new Java features but in a quick scan I do not see any J2EE stuff and
the Java Bean chapter seems to have been removed .
Good luck on your project.
<Top Post no more follows.>
<snip>
"Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3uj8lcF119ia5U1@individual.net...
>
> The project I am managing at the moment is using Websphere and Java with
> the Rational toolset (by the way, I'm trying to get A/Ps and testers at
> the moment... If anyone fancies a couple of years in NZ and is prepared to
> get into OO and Java, write me privately. Some of what I need doesn't
> involve coding so you don't need in-depth Java...). I have been quite
> surprised to find that the Toolset has taken over many of the traditional
> functions that were the domain of the Analyst and Programmer.
<snip>
| |
| Micha³ 2005-11-26, 3:55 am |
| charles hottel wrote:
> I am currently learning Java and the next logical step to me seems to be to
> learn J2EE and Websphere. What books, web resources or other resources
> would you recommend for learning J2EE, Websphere and Rational toolset?
Java:
http://www.mindview.net/Books/TIJ/
J2EE:
http://java.sun.com/j2ee/1.4/docs/tutorial/doc/
http://java.sun.com/blueprints/core...terns/Patterns/
and practice, practice, practice...
IBM stuff (Rational suite, WebSphere AS):
manuals from http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/, then get free trial or
community editions and practice, practice, practice...
> Most of the books I have read so far have discussed basic Java, Java
> servlets and JSP. I read Just Java 5th ed. (Dec 2001) by Peter van der
> Linden which discussed J2EE and Java Beans a little, but he said he could
> not recommend any J2EE books at that time, so I have been concerned about
> getting some "good" references. I also have his 6th edition to learn some of
> the new Java features but in a quick scan I do not see any J2EE stuff and
> the Java Bean chapter seems to have been removed .
btw, Java Bean != Enterprise Java Bean
regards,
--
mgl
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2005-11-26, 3:55 am |
|
Hi Charles,
very quick comments below...
"charles hottel" <jghottel@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6021e$43874411$4f9c630$1314@DIALUPU
SA.NET...
>
> I am currently learning Java and the next logical step to me seems to be
> to learn J2EE and Websphere. What books, web resources or other resources
> would you recommend for learning J2EE, Websphere and Rational toolset?
J2EE I have no idea. My developers all use it and they were pretty anxious
when I referred to it as Java. The Enterprise Edition apparentlyhas specific
features that are very important, and close to the hearts of J2EE
programmers. As Iam not involved in coding other than suggesting general
approaches and supporting people who are stuck, I simply haven't had time to
find out more about it.
Websphere is a generic IBM term for a number of middle tier products and
services. (GOOGLE is good)
The Rational toolset requires a proper understanding of OO concepts and
terminology. UML is a good start. I am teaching myself (with help from team
members) how to use the Rational tools, but they are much too expensive to
install on my own computer for playing with. I am finding mixed things about
Rational...
I have an information structure I need to obtain, in order to manage and
monitor a highly fluid and dynamic project. (Multiple tasks running
concurrently with all kinds of dependencies and constraints, within
stochastic timeboxes. MS Project is good for the general picture but it spat
the dummy when it saw the details... :-). Anyway, I decided what I needed
and put together a structure with the necessary objects, attributes, and
relationships. I could implement this as an ACCESS or SQLServer DB in a
heartbeat, and access it with Java or COBOL, but I decided to use the
Rational toolset, mainly so my BAs wouldn't think I was doing my own
thing... :-) And much of the data I need to restructure is actually stored
in the Rational tools. (Things like use case descriptions and requirements,
etc.).
I got into ClearQuest and ran a tutorial which seemed pretty
straightforward; create a DB schema and attach it to a database, then let
the tool do its stuff... I created ny structures on Access and pointed
Clearquest at them, but it decided not to play because the tables were
already defined. I thought that was a bit poor. I expected it to analyse the
existing tables and create the bloody schema for me.(I know this is easy,
because I wrote code to do it when I developed the ISAM2DB tool a few years
back.) It would only function if it was pointed at a database with nothing
defined on it; then you have to define everythng you want, through the tool.
I'll try again on Monday...
>
> Most of the books I have read so far have discussed basic Java, Java
> servlets and JSP. I read Just Java 5th ed. (Dec 2001) by Peter van der
> Linden which discussed J2EE and Java Beans a little, but he said he could
> not recommend any J2EE books at that time, so I have been concerned about
> getting some "good" references. I also have his 6th edition to learn some
> of the new Java features but in a quick scan I do not see any J2EE stuff
> and the Java Bean chapter seems to have been removed .
Beans (like all components :-)) are an essential part of the modern world. I
can't think off-hand of any particular references I would recommend, and
I'm writing this in Auckland so I don't have access to my bookshelves at
home. I'll have a chat to the J2EE people and see what they would recommend.
Will try and get back here next w.
>
> Good luck on your project.
Thank you. :-) Good luck is always a useful ingredient in the project mix.
Phase 1 completes at end December and is slightly ahead of schedule. Phase 2
is where the timeboxed JAD sessions come in and that will be full on and
very hectic. It will run for around 18 months, along with some other
workstream activities that will concurrently support the JAD teams, some
functionality being delivered by a third party that I need to keep my finger
on, and some infrastructure nonsense that I'll keep as far away from the
team as possible; just make sure they have everything they need when they
need it.
We are all pretty excited at the prospect and I know it will be fun next
year.
Sorry I can't be more helpful, Charles.
Pete.
| |
| Pete Dashwood 2005-11-26, 3:55 am |
|
Excellent, Michal!
Thanks very much for that. I am also responding to you privately.
Pete.
TOP POST nothing more below.
"Michal" <mgl@somewhere.net> wrote in message
news:dm82vr$lra$1@news.dialog.net.pl...
> charles hottel wrote:
>
> Java:
> http://www.mindview.net/Books/TIJ/
>
> J2EE:
> http://java.sun.com/j2ee/1.4/docs/tutorial/doc/
> http://java.sun.com/blueprints/core...terns/Patterns/
> and practice, practice, practice...
>
> IBM stuff (Rational suite, WebSphere AS):
> manuals from http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/, then get free trial or
> community editions and practice, practice, practice...
>
>
> btw, Java Bean != Enterprise Java Bean
>
> regards,
> --
> mgl
>
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