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Experts Say VIN Problem Bigger Than Y2K!
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| JerryMouse 2004-07-01, 8:55 pm |
| We're running out of VINs and this problem affects not only countless
computers, but law enforcement, dozens of governmental agencies (in just the
U.S.!), and many other disciplines.
Yes, the 17-character VIN (Vehicle Identification Number) assigned to every
car, boat, trailer, motorcycle, and Red Ryder Wagon is reaching its maximum
capacity.
Story at:
http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosin.../a01-200548.htm
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| > We're running out of VINs and this problem affects not only countless
> computers, but law enforcement, dozens of governmental agencies (in just the
> U.S.!), and many other disciplines.
Well I'm sure this is big problem but bigger than Y2K? Naw. Now running
out of social security numbers, or IP addresses or telephone numbers?
That's a Y2K scale problem.
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| docdwarf@panix.com 2004-07-02, 3:55 am |
| In article <Nf2dnXdwZaGGOHndRVn_vA@giganews.com>,
Mike <NoSpam@StopSpam.org> wrote:
>
>Well I'm sure this is big problem but bigger than Y2K? Naw. Now running
>out of social security numbers, or IP addresses or telephone numbers?
>That's a Y2K scale problem.
Telephone numbers? Why, I remember - must have been around 1990, 1992 or
so - when I had a contract at a Major Insurance Company in Hartford,
Connecticut, helping put together a long-term disability payments tracking
system.
(note to those not aware of such things: telephone numbers in the United
States of America - and possibly a few other places, as well - have the
format 111-222-3333; the first three digits (111) are called the 'area
code', the second three digits (222) are the 'exchange' and the final four
digits are the 'extension'. In the early 1960s the Bell Telephone Company
- there really weren't any others to speak of - began to move away from
'named' exchanges, where the first two characters of a word were mapped to
their corresponding digits; PEnsyllvania-6 became 736, BUtterfield-8
became 288, MUrray Hill-7 became 687, etc... but that's another story.)
I looked into some code and saw that the telephone-number edit routine
checked the second digit of the area code for '0' and '1'... and rejected
everything else... and it checked the second digit of the exchange for '0'
and '1'... and rejected based on that...
.... and I went to the Fine, Tall, Silver-Haired Caucasian Gent - this was,
after all, an Insurance Headquarters in Hartford, Connecticut - who
occupied the corner office and said 'Hey... somebody should know that Real
Soon Now area codes are going to contain all ten digits in the center
position... and exchanges are going to be allowed zero and one in the
center position... and this routine is going to reject valid numbers.'
The Fine, Tall, etc. Gent smiled warmly and said 'Oh, that's all right...
it is a copybook subroutine, all-we-gotta-do-is change the copybook and
recompile the system.'
I responded 'I was always taught that system recompiles were to be avoided
at just about any cost... and this thing may have started out as a
copybook but it has been copied, fully, into the source in this program
here... and this one here... and that one over there... and this one
around the corner... and perhaps a few more but I stopped looking after
these few and decided to make it known.'
Gent: 'That's very nice of you to do so but please, get back to your
assigned task... I'm sure the problem isn't so great that a bit of work at
the right time won't straighten it out.'
I left there a few months later... and have no idea what happened.
They're still in business, though, NYSE listing and all.
DD
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| Russell Styles 2004-07-02, 8:55 pm |
|
<docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:cc2d62$3su$1@panix5.panix.com...
> In article <Nf2dnXdwZaGGOHndRVn_vA@giganews.com>,
> Mike <NoSpam@StopSpam.org> wrote:
just the[color=darkred]
>
> Telephone numbers? Why, I remember - must have been around 1990, 1992 or
> so - when I had a contract at a Major Insurance Company in Hartford,
> Connecticut, helping put together a long-term disability payments tracking
> system.
>
> (note to those not aware of such things: telephone numbers in the United
> States of America - and possibly a few other places, as well - have the
> format 111-222-3333; the first three digits (111) are called the 'area
> code', the second three digits (222) are the 'exchange' and the final four
> digits are the 'extension'. In the early 1960s the Bell Telephone Company
> - there really weren't any others to speak of - began to move away from
> 'named' exchanges, where the first two characters of a word were mapped to
> their corresponding digits; PEnsyllvania-6 became 736, BUtterfield-8
> became 288, MUrray Hill-7 became 687, etc... but that's another story.)
>
> I looked into some code and saw that the telephone-number edit routine
> checked the second digit of the area code for '0' and '1'... and rejected
> everything else... and it checked the second digit of the exchange for '0'
> and '1'... and rejected based on that...
>
> ... and I went to the Fine, Tall, Silver-Haired Caucasian Gent - this was,
> after all, an Insurance Headquarters in Hartford, Connecticut - who
> occupied the corner office and said 'Hey... somebody should know that Real
> Soon Now area codes are going to contain all ten digits in the center
> position... and exchanges are going to be allowed zero and one in the
> center position... and this routine is going to reject valid numbers.'
>
> The Fine, Tall, etc. Gent smiled warmly and said 'Oh, that's all right...
> it is a copybook subroutine, all-we-gotta-do-is change the copybook and
> recompile the system.'
>
> I responded 'I was always taught that system recompiles were to be avoided
> at just about any cost... and this thing may have started out as a
> copybook but it has been copied, fully, into the source in this program
> here... and this one here... and that one over there... and this one
> around the corner... and perhaps a few more but I stopped looking after
> these few and decided to make it known.'
>
> Gent: 'That's very nice of you to do so but please, get back to your
> assigned task... I'm sure the problem isn't so great that a bit of work at
> the right time won't straighten it out.'
>
> I left there a few months later... and have no idea what happened.
> They're still in business, though, NYSE listing and all.
>
> DD
>
I don't suppose that he had pointy hair?
| |
| Peter Lacey 2004-07-02, 8:55 pm |
| JerryMouse wrote:
>
> We're running out of VINs and this problem affects not only countless
> computers, but law enforcement, dozens of governmental agencies (in just the
> U.S.!), and many other disciplines.
>
> Yes, the 17-character VIN (Vehicle Identification Number) assigned to every
> car, boat, trailer, motorcycle, and Red Ryder Wagon is reaching its maximum
> capacity.
>
> Story at:
> http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosin.../a01-200548.htm
There's a lesson to be reiterated here, a principle which if not
followed will ALWAYS cause trouble. That is: never make a field carry
more than one meaning. If you do it will always come back and bite
you. This thing is 17 characters long: therefore it allows for a
maximum of 36** 17 combinations (ten digits and 26 letters). I haven't
worked it out but that's about 2**85 or something. But since the thing
has been broken down into meaningful subfields, it is running out of
room.
I have quite a few horror stories about this. "Software Maintenance
News" published some of them.
PL
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| Robert Wagner 2004-07-02, 8:55 pm |
| Peter Lacey <lacey@mb.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>JerryMouse wrote:
>
>There's a lesson to be reiterated here, a principle which if not
>followed will ALWAYS cause trouble. That is: never make a field carry
>more than one meaning. If you do it will always come back and bite
>you. This thing is 17 characters long: therefore it allows for a
>maximum of 36** 17 combinations (ten digits and 26 letters). I haven't
>worked it out but that's about 2**85 or something. But since the thing
>has been broken down into meaningful subfields, it is running out of
>room.
Exactly my thought. Bureaucrats and committees always want to insert
Significance into the code. Rather than numbering vehicles serially, they want
to make it complicated by designating digits x through y model year, etc.
Will they ever learn that's a losing strategy? Probably not, because it makes
their 'expertise' trivial.
| |
| docdwarf@panix.com 2004-07-03, 8:55 am |
| In article <oq2dnYpA9N_qSHjdRVn-vA@giganews.com>,
Russell Styles <rws0203@comcast.net> wrote:
>
><docdwarf@panix.com> wrote in message news:cc2d62$3su$1@panix5.panix.com...
[snip]
> I don't suppose that he had pointy hair?
Not at all, Mr Styles... remember, Major Insurance HQ in Hartford,
Connecticut; his suit was impeccably suited and a shade of grey, his hair
was impeccably groomed and another shade of grey, he'd come from A Right
Family and gone to The Right Schools... in fact, such things were *so*
stereotypical that I'd heard the only way women had gotten past their
particular Glass Ceiling was by the winning of a hulking great EEO suit.
DD
| |
| Robert Wagner 2004-07-03, 8:55 am |
| "JerryMouse" <nospam@bisusa.com> wrote:
>We're running out of VINs and this problem affects not only countless
>computers, but law enforcement, dozens of governmental agencies (in just the
>U.S.!), and many other disciplines.
Speaking of VINs, the Feds passed a law requiring an RFID chip in every tire.
The reason is tire recall safety. Meanwhile, Experian maintains a database
tracking every vehicle in the US. It feeds off State registration systems and
processes 10M transactions per day.
That means someone with a sensor in the roadway and access to the database will
be able to track every vehicle rolling by. LoJack, SpeedPass and E-ZPass will
become superfluous. Every vehicle will identify itself.
Michelin is already putting the chip in its tires.
| |
| Richard 2004-07-03, 3:55 pm |
| robert.deletethis@wagner.net (Robert Wagner) wrote
> Exactly my thought. Bureaucrats and committees always want to insert
> Significance into the code. Rather than numbering vehicles serially, they want
> to make it complicated by designating digits x through y model year, etc.
If "digits s through y" do designate year then surely come January
they can start a whole new sequence for next year starting at 1 again
(for all digits not x thru y).
| |
| JerryMouse 2004-07-03, 8:55 pm |
| Richard wrote:
> robert.deletethis@wagner.net (Robert Wagner) wrote
>
>
> If "digits s through y" do designate year then surely come January
> they can start a whole new sequence for next year starting at 1 again
> (for all digits not x thru y).
The format and contents of the VIN are prescribed by federal regulation. The
VIN includes:
1. Manufacturer, make, and type of vehicle
2. Attributes of the vehicle (for a passenger car these include: Line,
Series, Body type, Restraint system)
3. A check-digit (9th position)
4. Model year
5. Location where built
6. Sequential number as it comes off the line.
It gets more complicated for trucks (classed by gross weight), motorcycles
(brake-horsepower), buses, an on and on.
But. Many of these systems were designed before instanteous look-up was
possible. When I was a cop, there were times when a license plate could not
be traced! (This was back when you actually GOT new plates each year.
Sometimes the agency issuing the plates fell behind in the recording.)
Knowing what county issued what plate prefix could help in some
investigations.
Still, today, with piddly computer power, it should be trivial to keep up
with ten million vehicles per year.
I'd vote for sequential numbering. Maybe this impending crunch will be
sufficient reason for change.
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| Robert Wagner 2004-07-04, 8:55 pm |
| riplin@Azonic.co.nz (Richard) wrote:
>robert.deletethis@wagner.net (Robert Wagner) wrote
>
want[color=darkred]
>
>If "digits s through y" do designate year then surely come January
>they can start a whole new sequence for next year starting at 1 again
>(for all digits not x thru y).
Only the low-order four digits (out of 17) identify the individual vehicle. If
a manuafcturer produces more than 10,000, it has run out of numbers. What a poor
system.
| |
| Robert Wagner 2004-07-04, 8:55 pm |
| "JerryMouse" <nospam@bisusa.com> wrote:
>Richard wrote:
>
>The format and contents of the VIN are prescribed by federal regulation. The
>VIN includes:
>
>1. Manufacturer, make, and type of vehicle
>2. Attributes of the vehicle (for a passenger car these include: Line,
>Series, Body type, Restraint system)
>3. A check-digit (9th position)
>4. Model year
>5. Location where built
>6. Sequential number as it comes off the line.
>
>It gets more complicated for trucks (classed by gross weight), motorcycles
>(brake-horsepower), buses, an on and on.
>
>But. Many of these systems were designed before instanteous look-up was
>possible. When I was a cop, there were times when a license plate could not
>be traced! (This was back when you actually GOT new plates each year.
>Sometimes the agency issuing the plates fell behind in the recording.)
>Knowing what county issued what plate prefix could help in some
>investigations.
>
>Still, today, with piddly computer power, it should be trivial to keep up
>with ten million vehicles per year.
>
>I'd vote for sequential numbering. Maybe this impending crunch will be
>sufficient reason for change.
They won't abandon the system. They'll lose location where built and maybe body
or engine type or 3rd digit of model type.. That'll get them past the
(self-imposed) crisis.
| |
|
| Robert Wagner wrote:
> Only the low-order four digits (out of 17) identify the individual vehicle. If
> a manuafcturer produces more than 10,000, it has run out of numbers. What a poor
> system.
Does it have to be a number? 4 positions seems to be plenty of space to
uniquely identify all the vehicles of a particular year, make, and model
- but if they're held to digits... Oops! :)
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| Howard Brazee 2004-07-06, 3:55 pm |
| Expansion of VIN would seem to be a similar task to expansion of ZIP codes, but
not nearly so pervasive.
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