Cobol - Re: OT - Re: Program templates as Object Classes

Author

Re: OT - Re: Program templates as Object Classes

Richard

2004-12-08, 3:55 am

>>> One third of energy consumed in the US is used to produce meat.
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> Agriculture is the major component in industrial.

Here is an actual figure for agriculture:

"""Few people realize that an enormous amount of energy is required to
produce our food. In fact, 17% of all fossil fuel used in the U.S. is
consumed by the food production system.4
....
Large amounts of fossil fuel are required to power heavy farming
machinery, to process foods, to refrigerate foods during
transportation, to produce packaging materials, and to manufacture and
transport chemical inputs such as fertilizers and pesticides."""

So actual statistics report that 17% is used for _ALL_ food production,
including transport and packaging, versus your claim that _twice_ that
amount is used to produce a part of that food.

4. Horrigan, Leo, Robert S. Lawrence, and Polly Walker. "How
Sustainable Agriculture Can Address the Environmental and Human Health
Harms of Industrial Agriculture." Environmental Health Perspectives Vol
110, 5 May 2002.

Robert Wagner

2004-12-08, 8:55 pm

On 8 Dec 2004 10:00:36 -0800, "Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote:

>
>In this country we put animals on land that would be difficult to use
>for anything else. You can't grow wheat or potatoes on hill sides.

New Zealand could produce ALL its beef on grassy hillsides. Why does
it have feedlots? Because consumers prefer higher fat content
(marbling) and white colored fat, as opposed to yellow.

The US has 700M acres of grassland, 600M acres of farmland, 525M acres
of woodland, 118M acres Developed and 319M other (swamps and deserts).
Of the grassland, only half could be used for crops, and most of it
wouldn't be because it is marginal.

The amount of woodland is increasing, contrary to what
environmentalists say, because farmland and grassland is being
abandoned.

>
>You can't just take land area and multiply it up. There is a reson
>that they grow lots wheat in Kansas and not much in Texas. You can't
>take a cattle ranch and plant it with corn, it just doesn't work.

My model took into account: climate, varying yields, etc. I also know
that all grains are grass seed. Corn, wheat, barley, milo and quinoa
will grow on grassland that has the right climate and water. The Texas
South Plains (my home base) used to be monoculture cotton and grazing.
Now in the Hereford area, they grow some of the best and most diverse
grains in the US.

Anyway, my model left fallow some 500M acres of former grassland. In
the corn belt, I adjusted yields from that of feed crops to that of
human food.

docdwarf@panix.com

2004-12-08, 8:55 pm

In article <0ruer0ljmvd6d80dohmidt8spdckrks0a5@4ax.com>,
Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>On 8 Dec 2004 10:00:36 -0800, "Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
>New Zealand could produce ALL its beef on grassy hillsides. Why does
>it have feedlots? Because consumers prefer higher fat content
>(marbling) and white colored fat, as opposed to yellow.

Hmmmmm... the consumers want what is within the bounds of the law, the
consumers get what is within the bounds of the law. To do otherwise might
lead to a Command Economy... is that your goal, Mr Wagner?

DD

Robert Wagner

2004-12-08, 8:55 pm

On 8 Dec 2004 10:32:09 -0800, "Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote:

>I very much prefer to have a half pound steak rather than a pile of
>grass.

A loaf of bread is a pile of grass (seed). If made artfully enough,
it's better than muscle tissue (IMO).

> In general, farm animals eat what I wouldn't, or can't. In many
>cases byproducts of other food production, or rejected food of
>inadequate quality, such as unripe, or hail damaged fruit, or even
>insect damaged, is used as feedstock. If it wasn't used for animal feed
>it would be a disposal problem.

Sounds like you're talking about swine. Cattle and poultry don't eat
trash, they eat grains.

>Meat is a source of proteins and nutrients which are not found in
>sufficient quantities in the usual vegetables or fruit.

"Vegetables" doesn't mean green leafies. You'd starve to death if
that's all you ate. A sustainable vegetarian diet is based on grains
and beans, with vegetables and fruits added for variety. For instance,
my menu last w

:

M: Fresh pasta & tomato sauce, salad, breadsticks
T: Asparagus with cheese, roasted potatoes, garlic bread
W: Paprikash (stew of mushrooms, kale, carrots, sour cream), imitation
chicken cutlet, salad
T: Cassoulet, homemade applesauce, bread
F: Barley-mushroom pilaf, sweet corn, fruit salad
S: Artichokes & wild rice au gratin, carrots vichy, cottage cheese

I've eaten like that for 30 years, without being under (or over)
nourished.

Robert Wagner

2004-12-09, 3:55 am

On 8 Dec 2004 18:12:14 -0500, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:

>In article <0ruer0ljmvd6d80dohmidt8spdckrks0a5@4ax.com>,
>Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>
>Hmmmmm... the consumers want what is within the bounds of the law, the
>consumers get what is within the bounds of the law. To do otherwise might
>lead to a Command Economy... is that your goal, Mr Wagner?

No. I want them to follow The American Way -- sue meat producers for
the 'deceptive practice' of not telling customers that too much fat
leads to obesity.

You laugh. They laughed when lawyers sued Big Tobacco for not telling
customers that cigarettes are bad for them. After $1.25 Billion in
legal fees, they're not laughing anymore.

James J. Gavan

2004-12-09, 8:55 am

Richard wrote:

>
>You imply that feedlots are common here. They do have them at the
>works because animals are stocked after transport for a few days and
>need to be fed. There would be inadequate pasture for the number of
>animals. Some cattle are finished in feedlots for a few w

s but
>generally about 90% of beef cattle and 95% of sheep production is on
>hill country.
>
>
>
Yes and you just let the little baa-lambs wander, usually 'escorted' by
black and white friends like my Emma - she'd sure love her own flock !

It beats me - an NZ leg of lamb sells for about $26-28 currently - twice
the price of equal poundage of beef ! We also 'grow' our on sheep in
southern Alberta; never see it but you can bet the price is just as
steep. If you saw a rack of lamb being served here, you would snottily
say to the waiter, "Take these skeletal bones away please". Just don't
get it. I once wrote to Pete, we had car stickers here, "Eat Alberta
lamb. 30,000 coyotes can't be wrong".

PS: What do all you folks do for entertainment when you aren't zipping
around the Web searching out all the references, on acreage, crop
yields, water usage, economics etc. ?

Jimmy

docdwarf@panix.com

2004-12-09, 8:55 am

In article <jlbfr09f2nndfkh5tdc1b54sv4bb1unlgv@4ax.com>,
Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>On 8 Dec 2004 18:12:14 -0500, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
>
>No. I want them to follow The American Way -- sue meat producers for
>the 'deceptive practice' of not telling customers that too much fat
>leads to obesity.

Oh, *I* see... you don't want to sully your own hands with the task but
you wish for others to take care of it. What stops you from initiating
the action you outline here?

DD

Robert Wagner

2004-12-09, 3:55 pm

On 8 Dec 2004 21:14:17 -0800, "Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote:

>customers that cigarettes are bad for them.
>
>No. That is not true. They sued because the tobacco companies _lied_
>and said their research 'proved' that cigarettes were not the cause of
>cancer, when in fact they knew it did.

They lied about addiction. The link with cancer has been widely
reported in research literature since the '50s. Interestingly, it has
never been shown that cigarettes are the _cause_ of cancer, only that
there is a statistical corelation between smoking and cancer.

What's the difference, you ask. Nit-picking. Well, it hasn't been
shown that meat is the _cause_ of premature death, but the difference
in life expectancy between smokers and non-smokers is the same as the
difference between omnivores and vegetarians. Why doesn't equal
corelation evoke the same alarm?

Because the public's logical detachment has a double standard,
depending on whether or not it likes the thing.

Robert Wagner

2004-12-09, 3:55 pm

On 9 Dec 2004 05:26:48 -0500, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:

>In article <jlbfr09f2nndfkh5tdc1b54sv4bb1unlgv@4ax.com>,
>Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
[color=darkred]
>
>Oh, *I* see... you don't want to sully your own hands with the task but
>you wish for others to take care of it. What stops you from initiating
>the action you outline here?

I was being facetious. The real solution is simpler: don't buy meat.
If everyone did that, the problem would be solved. The culinary
quality of restaurant food would go up; people would be slimmer and
healthier.

docdwarf@panix.com

2004-12-09, 3:55 pm

In article <5j1hr01c9edlivnucn3kdltutth79p5mu0@4ax.com>,
Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>On 9 Dec 2004 05:26:48 -0500, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
>
>
>I was being facetious.

Thanks for the clarification.

>The real solution is simpler: don't buy meat.
>If everyone did that, the problem would be solved.

Mr Wagner, given the difficulty of getting a mere hundred people to
whistle 'Yankee Doodle' simultaneously I do not believe that any
recommendation which contains a phrase like 'if everyone did that'
has a high probability of being implementable.

DD

Robert Wagner

2004-12-09, 8:55 pm

On 9 Dec 2004 12:49:53 -0500, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:

>In article <5j1hr01c9edlivnucn3kdltutth79p5mu0@4ax.com>,
>Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:

>
>Mr Wagner, given the difficulty of getting a mere hundred people to
>whistle 'Yankee Doodle' simultaneously I do not believe that any
>recommendation which contains a phrase like 'if everyone did that'
>has a high probability of being implementable.

Look at massive changes that have been implemented during your
lifetime. In 1965, did you think you'd ever see:

... Smoking banned everywhere in the US
... Communism another failed economic policy rather than Pure Evil
... Your father's factory job moved to Bangladesh
... Black CEOs and Cabinet officers
... Gay Pride
... Porn in most high-class hotel rooms
... A non-white majority in California

Lueko Willms

2004-12-09, 8:55 pm

.. On 09.12.04
wrote spamblocker-robert@wagner.net (Robert Wagner)
on /COMP/LANG/COBOL
in 5j1hr01c9edlivnucn3kdltutth79p5mu0@4ax.com
about Re: OT - Re: Program templates as Object Classes

RW> I was being facetious. The real solution is simpler: don't buy meat.
RW> If everyone did that, the problem would be solved.

What is with those other problems: what happens to all those herds
of cattle, hogs, sheep, and birds. They will have to die out, wouldn't
it? What to do with their corpses?

And our cats and dogs, what would they eat?

Yours,
Lüko Willms http://www.willms-edv.de
/--------- L.WILLMS@jpberlin.de -- Alle Rechte vorbehalten --

Er kann die Tinte nicht halten, und wenn es ihm ankommt, jemand zu besudeln, so besudelt er sich gemeiniglich am meisten. -G.C.Lichtenberg

Robert Wagner

2004-12-09, 8:55 pm

On 9 Dec 2004 15:02:02 -0800, "Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote:

>
>
[color=darkred]
>Are those what you told everyone to do back in 1965 ?

If I had, we wouldn't see them today. I should start using reverse
psychology. Listen up people -- they're trying to sell you little
bottles of water for eight times the price of gasoline. The same
drinking water that's free from the faucet. They think you're fools;
don't fall for it.

[Now, watch how well reverse psychology works.]

Robert Wagner

2004-12-09, 8:55 pm

On 09 Dec 2004 19:06:00 GMT, l.willms@jpberlin.de (Lueko Willms)
wrote:

>. On 09.12.04
> wrote spamblocker-robert@wagner.net (Robert Wagner)
> on /COMP/LANG/COBOL
> in 5j1hr01c9edlivnucn3kdltutth79p5mu0@4ax.com
> about Re: OT - Re: Program templates as Object Classes
>
>
>RW> I was being facetious. The real solution is simpler: don't buy meat.
>RW> If everyone did that, the problem would be solved.
>
> What is with those other problems: what happens to all those herds
>of cattle, hogs, sheep, and birds. They will have to die out, wouldn't
>it? What to do with their corpses?

Give them a dignified burial.

> And our cats and dogs, what would they eat?

Dogs are omnivores, like humans. Cats DO need meat. Let them earn
their keep hunting rats & mice. They might even lose weight.

docdwarf@panix.com

2004-12-10, 3:55 am

In article <92ehr0lrhh1ru6vj3sqcm1dc716jloi606@4ax.com>,
Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>On 9 Dec 2004 12:49:53 -0500, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
>
>
>Look at massive changes that have been implemented during your
>lifetime. In 1965, did you think you'd ever see:
>
>.. Smoking banned everywhere in the US

Yes.

>.. Communism another failed economic policy rather than Pure Evil

Yes.

>.. Your father's factory job moved to Bangladesh

Yes.

>.. Black CEOs and Cabinet officers

Yes.

>.. Gay Pride

YEs.

>.. Porn in most high-class hotel rooms

Yes.

>.. A non-white majority in California

.... and yes again, Mr Wagner. Not only did I think of such things, I
recall reading most of them in 'science fiction' stories of the time; that
still does not alter the fact that given the difficulty of getting a
mere hundred people to whistle 'Yankee Doodle' simultaneously I do not
believe that any recommendation which contains a phrase like 'if everyone
did that' has a high probability of being implementable.

In short... 'that 'stranger things have happened' in no way increases the
likelihood of a different strange thing happening.

DD

Pete Dashwood

2004-12-10, 3:55 am

"Robert Wagner" <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote in message
news:uvsfr0lfa7k07q2ijqt0ooircvmlgre84q@
4ax.com...
> On 8 Dec 2004 21:14:17 -0800, "Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
> They lied about addiction. The link with cancer has been widely
> reported in research literature since the '50s. Interestingly, it has
> never been shown that cigarettes are the _cause_ of cancer, only that
> there is a statistical corelation between smoking and cancer.
>
> What's the difference, you ask. Nit-picking. Well, it hasn't been
> shown that meat is the _cause_ of premature death, but the difference
> in life expectancy between smokers and non-smokers is the same as the
> difference between omnivores and vegetarians. Why doesn't equal
> corelation evoke the same alarm?
>
> Because the public's logical detachment has a double standard,
> depending on whether or not it likes the thing.
>
>
Vegetarians don't live any longer than other people. It just seems that
way... to the rest of us.

Pete.

Pete Dashwood

2004-12-10, 3:55 am

"Robert Wagner" <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote in message
news:5j1hr01c9edlivnucn3kdltutth79p5mu0@
4ax.com...
> On 9 Dec 2004 05:26:48 -0500, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
>
>
> I was being facetious. The real solution is simpler: don't buy meat.
> If everyone did that, the problem would be solved. The culinary
> quality of restaurant food would go up; people would be slimmer and
> healthier.
>
And Doc Dwarf would rule not only England, but Scotland, Wales, and Ireland
as well <G>.

Pete.

James J. Gavan

2004-12-10, 3:55 am

Robert Wagner wrote:

>On 09 Dec 2004 19:06:00 GMT, l.willms@jpberlin.de (Lueko Willms)
>wrote:
>
>
>
>
>Give them a dignified burial.
>
>
>
>
>Dogs are omnivores, like humans. Cats DO need meat. Let them earn
>their keep hunting rats & mice. They might even lose weight.
>
>
I passed it by first time around. But in response to Leuko's question, I
was going to offer -

Koshered penguins ?

As for the pussy-cats, SOL here in Calgary. Cats roamin' the
neighbourhood, scratching and peeing on peoples' veggie patches or
flowers - strictly verboten under cat by-laws. Same of course applies to
dogs - can't be free roaming. Nevertheless, pussy-cats will get short
pickings being housebound..

Can't wait for a modern day Dick Whittington to say, "See, you've got
all these damned mice and rats, because your cats are housebound".

I know Alberta folklore amuses Pete, like the bicycle cops giving
speeding tickets to *cyclists*. Well, in all seriousness we have our
Alberta Rat Patrol. And it is very, very effective. The rats come from
the East, (probably Donald shoos them on their way), via Saskatchewan,
or perhaps on trucks - but the 'Patrol', some 12 guys, does keep them
out - so we are rat free. For obvious reasons, rats don't attempt to
play 'tourists', coming from further up in the Great White North, nor
from the West, BC, because of the Rockies acting as a snowy barrier;
same sort of thing stops them traipsing in from Montana - that's
assuming there are rats in Montana.

Jimmy

Joe Zitzelberger

2004-12-10, 3:55 am

In article <31sbfdF3fe311U1@individual.net>,
"Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:

> And Doc Dwarf would rule not only England, but Scotland, Wales, and Ireland
> as well <G>.
>
> Pete.

Why are you U.K. types always out to enslave my people?

What did the Irish ever do to you...

Robert Wagner

2004-12-10, 3:55 am

On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 17:47:12 -0500, Donald Tees
<donald_tees@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>We have fished the oceans dry, cut down all the forests, and poluted the
>water table of the entire continent. I'd say the human race is in deep
>shit.

According to Ann Counter (right wing babe), we're just hitting our
stride. We were placed here to rape the earth.

docdwarf@panix.com

2004-12-10, 8:55 am

In article <joe_zitzelberger-CB5D9A.00005510122004@knology.usenetserver.com>,
Joe Zitzelberger <joe_zitzelberger@nospam.com> wrote:
>In article <31sbfdF3fe311U1@individual.net>,
> "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
>Why are you U.K. types always out to enslave my people?
>
>What did the Irish ever do to you...

Learn something new every day... are you of the Dublin Zitzelbergers or
the Killarney Zitzelbergers?

DD

docdwarf@panix.com

2004-12-10, 8:55 am

In article <joe_zitzelberger-CB5D9A.00005510122004@knology.usenetserver.com>,
Joe Zitzelberger <joe_zitzelberger@nospam.com> wrote:
>In article <31sbfdF3fe311U1@individual.net>,
> "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
>Why are you U.K. types always out to enslave my people?
>
>What did the Irish ever do to you...

Learn something new every day! Are you of the Dublin Zitzelbergers or the
Killarney Zitzelbergers?

DD

Joe Zitzelberger

2004-12-10, 3:55 pm

In article <cpbsst$64o$1@panix5.panix.com>, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:

> In article <joe_zitzelberger-CB5D9A.00005510122004@knology.usenetserver.com>,
> Joe Zitzelberger <joe_zitzelberger@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> Learn something new every day! Are you of the Dublin Zitzelbergers or the
> Killarney Zitzelbergers?
>
> DD
>

The Kerry family of County Cork. But at Ellis Island Granddad decided
to change it to O'Zitzelberger.

Seriously though, for lack of a marriage certificate, my father received
his Bohemian mothers name -- Zitzelsberger. So I have a rather obvious
German in the wood pile, I think the phrase is 'da liegt die hund
begraben' applies.

docdwarf@panix.com

2004-12-10, 3:55 pm

In article <joe_zitzelberger-9D0369.11535310122004@knology.usenetserver.com>,
Joe Zitzelberger <joe_zitzelberger@nospam.com> wrote:
>In article <cpbsst$64o$1@panix5.panix.com>, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
>
>The Kerry family of County Cork. But at Ellis Island Granddad decided
>to change it to O'Zitzelberger.

New country, new name... an ancient immigrant's tradition, sure.

>
>Seriously though, for lack of a marriage certificate, my father received
>his Bohemian mothers name -- Zitzelsberger. So I have a rather obvious
>German in the wood pile, I think the phrase is 'da liegt die hund
>begraben' applies.

A man took a woman's name? How very advanced for the time!

DD

James J. Gavan

2004-12-10, 8:55 pm

Joe Zitzelberger wrote:

>In article <31sbfdF3fe311U1@individual.net>,
> "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>Why are you U.K. types always out to enslave my people?
>
>What did the Irish ever do to you...
>
>
>
1) "He moight have bin from Country Down..
.................."

2) Even this would work, changing the cadence slightly :-

"He moight have bin from Country Cavan..
.................."

3) Don't think so, no matter what you do with it:-

"He moight have bin from County Zitzelberger
The lad shure luvved Ollie Cromwell the urger
...........

Be content me boyo. Shure, wiv me heart pressed against St. Paddy's
shrine, I can attest Oi have a full jar of Oirish blood. Yerself, just a
half jar. As any woise Oirishman in a pub will tell yer, as he woipes
his hand across his mouth, "A half jar is better than a bluddy empty jar".
[color=darkred]

Easy. Even after 1,000 years, they still kept saying 'No".

Seamus Gavan, (not from Cavan, but the West Coast).

Michael Wojcik

2004-12-10, 8:55 pm

In article <t5phr01ojcq34dieifl96t5ls2jrjmuh5a@4ax.com>, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> writes:
>
> Listen up people -- they're trying to sell you little
> bottles of water for eight times the price of gasoline. The same
> drinking water that's free from the faucet. They think you're fools;
> don't fall for it.

No worries - I've been drinking gasoline for years, ever since I
discovered how poorly the car ran on bottled water.

--
Michael Wojcik michael.wojcik@microfocus.com

Robert Wagner

2004-12-10, 8:55 pm

On 10 Dec 2004 20:28:07 GMT, mwojcik@newsguy.com (Michael Wojcik)
wrote:

>
>In article <t5phr01ojcq34dieifl96t5ls2jrjmuh5a@4ax.com>, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> writes:
>
>No worries - I've been drinking gasoline for years, ever since I
>discovered how poorly the car ran on bottled water.

I've done 120 miles on a gallon (8 lbs) of water on a bicycle. Your
car can't match that.

Pete Dashwood

2004-12-11, 3:55 am

ROFL!

Pete.

"Michael Wojcik" <mwojcik@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:cpd0sn01ndb@news4.newsguy.com...
>
> In article <t5phr01ojcq34dieifl96t5ls2jrjmuh5a@4ax.com>, Robert Wagner
<spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> writes:
>
> No worries - I've been drinking gasoline for years, ever since I
> discovered how poorly the car ran on bottled water.
>
> --
> Michael Wojcik michael.wojcik@microfocus.com
>

Pete Dashwood

2004-12-11, 3:55 am

"Joe Zitzelberger" <joe_zitzelberger@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:joe_zitzelberger-CB5D9A.00005510122004@knology.usenetserver.com...
> In article <31sbfdF3fe311U1@individual.net>,
> "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>
Ireland[color=darkred]
>
> Why are you U.K. types always out to enslave my people?
>
> What did the Irish ever do to you...
>
>
They invented Irish Stew, which is a waste of lamb and carrots.
They produced James Joyce and we all had to read his bloody book.
They implanted their temper genes in my Mother (who was of Irish descent and
had a fiendish temper which fortunately she kept to herself most of the
time...)
They excelled at artistry and sensitivity so that the rest of us look like
uncultured clods. (Bit like the bloody Welsh really, but the Welsh balanced
it by adopting Rugby as a religion, so that's all right. Irish Rugby...say
no more.)
They invented Guiness. (So oysters would never be the same...)
They pretend they're stupid but really they are lateral thinkers. This is
very disconcerting if you have to manage them.
They go around blowing each other up, and as if that weren't enough, they
come to England and blow people up as well. (This is an unworthy cheap shot,
because they are (now) really making progress in that area. Nevertheless,
you asked what they did to ME. I was living in London during the IRA
campaign and had several close shaves. Friends of mine were injured.)
They inflicted "Danny Boy" and "Galway Bay" on us...

"Yes, but apart from Irish stew, James Joyce, your Mother's temper,
excelling at artistry, Guiness, lateral thinking, fascination with
explosives, "Danny Boy", and "Galway Bay", what did the Irish ever do to
you?"

"Well, one of them suggested I am a U.K. type..."

"OK. Say no more..."

Pete.

Pete Dashwood

2004-12-11, 3:55 am

"Joe Zitzelberger" <joe_zitzelberger@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:joe_zitzelberger-9D0369.11535310122004@knology.usenetserver.com...
> In article <cpbsst$64o$1@panix5.panix.com>, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
<joe_zitzelberger-CB5D9A.00005510122004@knology.usenetserver.com>,[color=darkred]
Ireland[color=darkred]
the[color=darkred]
>
> The Kerry family of County Cork. But at Ellis Island Granddad decided
> to change it to O'Zitzelberger.
>
> Seriously though, for lack of a marriage certificate, my father received
> his Bohemian mothers name -- Zitzelsberger. So I have a rather obvious
> German in the wood pile, I think the phrase is 'da liegt die hund
> begraben' applies.
>
Not heard that one before. I think that a dead dog buried in the woodpile is
no more acceptable than the traditional (but no lnger PC) nigger in the
woodpile. (at least he was alive...).

It's funny, in my youth we used that phrase without conscious offence to
coloured folks , just as a figure of speech. I had to write a report not
long after I arrived in the U.K. and it went to some Senior Managers who
were outraged that the report contained: "The nigger in the woodpile here is
the effect of increased batch processing, and what that might do to our
on-line performance." I was severely reprimanded, and have never used it
since. In today's climate, I understand it could give offence.

But, if these things are to be considered literally (and I don't think they
should - it is a figure of speech to express an idea. The ides is what's
important here...), then is a dead dog any more acceptable? What about the
feelings of dog lovers?

Enough, it's beach time...

Pete.
>

Pete Dashwood

2004-12-11, 3:55 am

"Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1102704253.675801.279110@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> You allied yourselfs with the French, that is crime enough ;-)
>
Crikey, I forgot all about that <G>

Pete.

Lueko Willms

2004-12-11, 8:55 am

.. On 11.12.04
wrote dashwood@enternet.co.nz (Pete Dashwood)
on /COMP/LANG/COBOL
in 31v1e3F3ggdfkU1@individual.net
about Re: OT - Re: Program templates as Object Classes

"da liegt der Hund begraben" - "there's where the dog is buried"

PD> But, if these things are to be considered literally (and I don't
PD> think they should - it is a figure of speech to express an idea. The
PD> ides is what's important here...), then is a dead dog any more
PD> acceptable? What about the feelings of dog lovers?

Well, dog lovers also -- except children maybe -- do know that dogs
live much shorter lives then us humans do; so a dog will die one day
and be either disposed of at a "Tierkörperbeseitigungsanstalt" (The
Institute for Disposal of Animal Bodies), or be buried.

Und da liegt der Hund begraben.

Yours,
Lüko Willms http://www.willms-edv.de
/--------- L.WILLMS@jpberlin.de -- Alle Rechte vorbehalten --

Wie geht's, sagte ein Blinder zu einem Lahmen. Wie Sie sehen, antwortete der Lahme. -G.C.Lichtenberg

Joe Zitzelberger

2004-12-11, 3:55 pm

In article <31v1e3F3ggdfkU1@individual.net>,
"Pete Dashwood" <dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:

> "Joe Zitzelberger" <joe_zitzelberger@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:joe_zitzelberger-9D0369.11535310122004@knology.usenetserver.com...
> <joe_zitzelberger-CB5D9A.00005510122004@knology.usenetserver.com>,
> Ireland
> the
> Not heard that one before. I think that a dead dog buried in the woodpile is
> no more acceptable than the traditional (but no lnger PC) nigger in the
> woodpile. (at least he was alive...).
>
> It's funny, in my youth we used that phrase without conscious offence to
> coloured folks , just as a figure of speech. I had to write a report not
> long after I arrived in the U.K. and it went to some Senior Managers who
> were outraged that the report contained: "The nigger in the woodpile here is
> the effect of increased batch processing, and what that might do to our
> on-line performance." I was severely reprimanded, and have never used it
> since. In today's climate, I understand it could give offence.
>
> But, if these things are to be considered literally (and I don't think they
> should - it is a figure of speech to express an idea. The ides is what's
> important here...), then is a dead dog any more acceptable? What about the
> feelings of dog lovers?
>
> Enough, it's beach time...
>
> Pete.

I'm not sure the phrase is about a buried dog -- but about what the dog
has buried.

My German is almost non-existant -- in fact, I'm not even sure I spelled
everything right.

But the idiom I was looking for was similar to the one about a
questionable ancestrey.

Lueko Willms

2004-12-11, 3:55 pm

.. On 11.12.04
wrote joe_zitzelberger@nospam.com (Joe Zitzelberger)
on /COMP/LANG/COBOL
in joe_zitzelberger-86725C.10285211122004@knology.usenetserver.com
about Re: OT - Re: Program templates as Object Classes

[color=darkred]

JZ> I'm not sure the phrase is about a buried dog -- but about what the
JZ> dog has buried.

No, it translates literally to "that's where the dog is buried" and
means "there's the rub" or "that's why".

Yours,
Lüko Willms http://www.willms-edv.de
/--------- L.WILLMS@jpberlin.de -- Alle Rechte vorbehalten --

Es regnete so stark, daß alle Schweine rein und alle Menschen dreckig wurden. -G.C.Lichtenberg

Robert Wagner

2004-12-12, 3:55 pm

Robert Wagner

2004-12-12, 3:55 pm

docdwarf@panix.com

2004-12-12, 3:55 pm

Robert Wagner

2004-12-12, 3:55 pm

Lueko Willms

2004-12-13, 3:55 am

Robert Wagner

2004-12-13, 3:55 am

Robert Wagner

2004-12-13, 3:55 am

Pete Dashwood

2004-12-13, 3:55 am

docdwarf@panix.com

2004-12-13, 3:55 am

James J. Gavan

2004-12-13, 3:55 am

Howard Brazee

2004-12-13, 3:55 pm

On 9-Dec-2004, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:

> Look at massive changes that have been implemented during your
> lifetime. In 1965, did you think you'd ever see:
>
> .. Smoking banned everywhere in the US
no (I was right)
> .. Communism another failed economic policy rather than Pure Evil
yes (I was right)
> .. Your father's factory job moved to Bangladesh
no (I was right)
> .. Black CEOs and Cabinet officers
yes (I was right)
> .. Gay Pride
no (I was wrong)
> .. Porn in most high-class hotel rooms
no (I was wrong)
> .. A non-white majority in California
yes (I was wrong)

Howard Brazee

2004-12-13, 3:55 pm

On 10-Dec-2004, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:

> I've done 120 miles on a gallon (8 lbs) of water on a bicycle. Your
> car can't match that.

My car gets much more per gallon of water. As with your body, the water is
used for

ing, not for fuel.

(Admittedly, a man on a bicycle is one of the most efficient forms of
transportation known).

docdwarf@panix.com

2004-12-13, 3:55 pm

Robert Wagner

2004-12-13, 3:55 pm

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 15:06:32 GMT, "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net>
wrote:

>
>On 10-Dec-2004, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>
>
>My car gets much more per gallon of water. As with your body, the water is
>used for

ing, not for fuel.
>
>(Admittedly, a man on a bicycle is one of the most efficient forms of
>transportation known).

The energy in gasoline is 45 MJ/kg = 30K kcal/gal. A bicycler consumes
50 'calories' above resting rate per mile. 30K / 50 = 600 miles per
gallon.

Verify: body fat contains roughly 3600 calories per pound = 25K
calories per 'gallon'. 25K / 50 = 500 miles per gallon. Close enough.

Remarkably, a bicycle and rider has three times the aerodynamic drag
of a car. At 20 mph, more than 90% of the bicycler's resistance is
aerodynamic, and going up with speed squared.

Robert Wagner

2004-12-13, 3:55 pm

Robert Wagner

2004-12-13, 3:55 pm

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:52:33 -0500, SkippyPB
<swiegand@neo.rr.NOSPAM.com> wrote:

>Her name is Ann Coulter. She once commented, on FOX News' Hannity and
>Colmes, that God gave people dominion over the planet and that we
>should "rape" the earth "as opposed to living like the Indians".

She wished Timothy McVeigh had chosen the New York Times building.

docdwarf@panix.com

2004-12-13, 3:55 pm

docdwarf@panix.com

2004-12-13, 3:55 pm

In article <0gljr09fva5hccq6tdsf4m176ui9or9lo9@4ax.com>,
Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:52:33 -0500, SkippyPB
><swiegand@neo.rr.NOSPAM.com> wrote:
>
>
>She wished Timothy McVeigh had chosen the New York Times building.

I guess that's what passes these days for 'compassionate conservatism'.

DD

Howard Brazee

2004-12-13, 3:55 pm

On 13-Dec-2004, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:

> Remarkably, a bicycle and rider has three times the aerodynamic drag
> of a car. At 20 mph, more than 90% of the bicycler's resistance is
> aerodynamic, and going up with speed squared.

That's because bicycle racing has proscribed adding equipment to get around
this.

Pete Dashwood

2004-12-13, 3:55 pm

James J. Gavan

2004-12-13, 3:55 pm

Michael Wojcik

2004-12-13, 3:55 pm

docdwarf@panix.com

2004-12-13, 3:56 pm

In article <higkr0tec55pdk5bnac9el2sovhioloui1@4ax.com>,
Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>On 10 Dec 2004 12:54:36 -0500, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
>
>In a later retraction, she said "after everyone had left the building,
>except the editors."

My guess appears to be confirmed.

DD

Robert Wagner

2004-12-13, 3:56 pm

On 10 Dec 2004 12:54:36 -0500, docdwarf@panix.com wrote:

>In article <0gljr09fva5hccq6tdsf4m176ui9or9lo9@4ax.com>,
>Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>
>I guess that's what passes these days for 'compassionate conservatism'.

In a later retraction, she said "after everyone had left the building,
except the editors."

Pete Dashwood

2004-12-13, 3:56 pm

Pete Dashwood

2004-12-13, 3:56 pm

Pete Dashwood

2004-12-13, 3:56 pm

Lueko Willms

2004-12-13, 3:56 pm

Joe Zitzelberger

2004-12-13, 3:56 pm

Robert Wagner

2004-12-13, 3:56 pm

Robert Wagner

2004-12-13, 3:56 pm

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 01:30:22 +1300, "Pete Dashwood"
<dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:

>"Robert Wagner" <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote in message
> news:h07qr0d433cqut7qfo139ipnd5gp2gh887@
4ax.com...
>Yeah, right... <G>
>
>I'll mention it at the next meeting of the local Purplefoot Wine Club I
>belong to...
>
>In this country chateau du cardboard is still for people who don't
>care...Having said that, I have found some of it not bad, but I have never
>had better wine out of a box than that which came from a bottle (anywhere on
>Earth...).
>
>Again, Robert, it comes down to personal opinion.

It's not presonal opinion, it's a fact that some 'serious' US wineries
are using bladder-in-a-box. It's not as popular in Europe, Oz and NZ
because of the pre-judgment you expressed above. See, for example:

www.blackboxwines.com
www.packworld.com/articles/Features/13938.html

James J. Gavan

2004-12-13, 3:56 pm

Pete Dashwood wrote:

>In this country chateau du cardboard is still for people who don't
>care...Having said that, I have found some of it not bad, but I have never
>had better wine out of a box than that which came from a bottle (anywhere on
>Earth...).
>
>Again, Robert, it comes down to personal opinion.
>
>Pete.
>
>
>
>
Reference château du cardboard. Our design of the invoicing system at
Unigate was pretty well firmed up. So we attended a meeting of Unigate
sales big-wigs, managing director, sales manager and divisional managers
etc., so we could outline how the application would work. Held at a
swank BR hotel at Stratford-upon-Avon.

We are all sat down for the evening meal as groups at different tables.
Naturally some ordered 'the best', perhaps a Château Neuf du Pape, (with
the waiter getting excited, mentally adding up the prospective tips). He
gets to, I'll call him Seth Smith, a sales admin type at head office in
Wiltshire, pleasant pink-pommie faced, usually with a grin from ear to
ear. A 'local' lad. The waiter quizzes him, "Oh, I'll just have a
Château Avon".

Agree about taste. Next Sunday we'll be having a meal with my Scotch
buddy and his wife. For sure he will serve a good quality red. I will
sip a token glass, with no refills.Why can't he compromise with a Rose ?
If it's roast beef they serve, (in all likelihood), I can assure you it
will look like its throat has just been cut - pink centre with blood
oozing out. Yuk ! As diplomatically as possible, I will suggest, 'Can I
have some of the outside meat ?'.

Jimmy

Robert Wagner

2004-12-13, 3:56 pm

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 17:55:57 +1300, "Pete Dashwood"
<dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:

>"Robert Wagner" <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote in message
> news:f1dnr0tcejbcmgpr0fnmgu5igrhoc8k76i@
4ax.com...

>But did you ever consider that all the things you describe as "best" are
>only so to you? It is a subjective judgement. That doesn't make it invalid,
>but it does mean that you should accept it as such.
>
>All too often you post here on the basis that the "world according to
>Wagner" is the only possible reality.
>
>It isn't. I am interested in the "world according to Wagner" because I think
>you have some very valid underlying points to make and your posts are
>usually interesting. But time and again you simply can't seem to qualify
>what you say.

In the case of food, my opinions are in concord with a large number of
experts. I KNOW they're valid, not just one person's possibly mistaken
opinion. I'm not as sure about my programming opinions, but the
coincidence of seeing he exact same criticism applied to both causes
me to IT'S validity.

Robert Wagner

2004-12-13, 8:55 pm

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 19:37:40 GMT, "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net>
wrote:

>
>On 13-Dec-2004, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>
>
>So? What percentage would make these the biggest polluters?

I thought you meant something else. You're saying vehicles are the
biggest polluters. That's true if you consider only man-made things in
the US. Mount Pinatubo put more pollution in the air than all the
automobile exhaust since the automobile was invented.

Robert Wagner

2004-12-13, 8:55 pm

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 19:41:31 GMT, "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net>
wrote:

>
>On 13-Dec-2004, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>
>
>College trained pianists cost more than untrained pianists. But some people
>like listening to them and are willing to pay for them.

People can buy grass-fed beef and free-range chickens in specialty
stores. Few choose to do so.

>
>What system is this?

The US agricultural system. It wasn't engineered by anyone; it
developed over years due to chaotic market forces.

>Individual people pay for what they want. The reward
>comes from the consumer and goes to the supplier. Systems are for central
>governments who decide what people should want and remove the individual choice.

In free markets, choices are decided by one's neighbors. It's a
popularity contest. Outside the biggest cities, some things simply
aren't available.

>Elitists are all for deciding what are worthy ways for others to spend their
>time and money.

Sounds like you're referring to Wal-Mart.

Robert Wagner

2004-12-13, 8:55 pm

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:45:58 GMT, "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net>
wrote:

>On 13-Dec-2004, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>
>
>Why do you think the Railroads don't want to get more business, and require
>people like you to decide how their businesses should run?

Railroad rates are set by the Federal government, the ICC. They are
calculated to yield 5.5% ROI. In return for 'guaranteed' profit,
government can set minimum performance standards.

>Is it because of their obscene profits that result from not having any
>competition from the trucking industry? Or do they believe that since they had
>their turn, they should now gracefully step aside and let the truckers steal
>from the public instead?

During the Glory Years, when Vanderbilt & friends were running
railroads, they made only 3% ROI. That's not obscene.

http://college.hmco.com/history/rea...0_railroads.htm

Richard

2004-12-14, 3:55 am

> They are failing because people perceive railroads to be unreliable.
> Cross-country passenger trains are often behind schedule.

So it not just that they are 'perceived' to be unreliable, they _are_
unreliable.

Lueko Willms

2004-12-14, 3:55 pm

Howard Brazee

2004-12-14, 3:55 pm

On 13-Dec-2004, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:

>
> I thought you meant something else. You're saying vehicles are the
> biggest polluters.

No, I'm saying the buildings, roads, and farms are. How do you determine
whether something is pollution? I suppose by the impact upon nature. Do
things grow naturally on buildings, roads, and farms?

> That's true if you consider only man-made things in
> the US. Mount Pinatubo put more pollution in the air than all the
> automobile exhaust since the automobile was invented.

But that pollution was much more temporary than the paving over of a city.

Howard Brazee

2004-12-14, 3:55 pm

On 13-Dec-2004, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:

>
> In free markets, choices are decided by one's neighbors. It's a
> popularity contest. Outside the biggest cities, some things simply
> aren't available.

You can always say no. You're someone else's neighbor, when you provide profit
for suppliers of what you want, they will provide your choices (which your
neighbors will now have available).

>
> Sounds like you're referring to Wal-Mart.

What has Wal*Mart decided is a worthy way of me to spend my money? Has it
decided that we need to be taxed to support rail over trucks? Has it demanded
that we be taxed to build its sports and arts complexes?

Howard Brazee

2004-12-14, 3:55 pm

On 13-Dec-2004, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:

>
> Railroad rates are set by the Federal government, the ICC. They are
> calculated to yield 5.5% ROI. In return for 'guaranteed' profit,
> government can set minimum performance standards.

OK. The Feds say they can earn a set profit, and you want them to tell the
railroads to charge less as well. The railroads claim that if they charge
less, they won't cover expenses. So how do they do this? They've already cut
their staff tremendously (no cabooses anymore).

Just pass a law mandating lots of well-paying jobs, low prices, profits for the
owners, and repeal the law of supply and demand!

Howard Brazee

2004-12-14, 3:55 pm

On 13-Dec-2004, Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:

> During the Glory Years, when Vanderbilt & friends were running
> railroads, they made only 3% ROI. That's not obscene.

They made their money off of other investors. The bubble did collapse taking
down lots of investors.

LX-i

2004-12-14, 3:55 pm

Robert Wagner wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 17:47:12 -0500, Donald Tees
> <donald_tees@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> According to Ann Counter (right wing babe),

Ann Coulter (looks like your spell-checker got you...)

But you're right about the babe part... (anncoulter.org seems to not be
accepting connections, but there's a nice head shot of her here...)

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/...c20041021.shtml

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \ / ~ Live from Montgomery, AL! ~
~ / \/ o ~ ~
~ / /\ - | ~ LXi0007@Netscape.net ~
~ _____ / \ | ~ http://www.knology.net/~mopsmom/daniel ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ I do not read e-mail at the above address ~
~ Please see website if you wish to contact me privately ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e ~
~ h---- r+++ z++++ ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

LX-i

2004-12-14, 3:55 pm

docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
> In article <0gljr09fva5hccq6tdsf4m176ui9or9lo9@4ax.com>,
> Robert Wagner <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> I guess that's what passes these days for 'compassionate conservatism'.

I don't believe, your highness, that she's ever claimed to be a
compassionate conservative. She's more of a "tell-it-like-it-is"
conservative.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \ / ~ Live from Montgomery, AL! ~
~ / \/ o ~ ~
~ / /\ - | ~ LXi0007@Netscape.net ~
~ _____ / \ | ~ http://www.knology.net/~mopsmom/daniel ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ I do not read e-mail at the above address ~
~ Please see website if you wish to contact me privately ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e ~
~ h---- r+++ z++++ ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Robert Wagner

2004-12-14, 8:55 pm

On 14 Dec 2004 14:49:29 -0800, "Richard" <riplin@Azonic.co.nz> wrote:

>items and is
>
>The Supermarket that _I_ go to is 7K sqft and I cycle to it.

I can't believe the tiny supermarkets outside the US. I used to work
for German supermarket operators Liebbrand and Tanglemann, whose
average size was 15K square feet. Customers expected to wait in line
30 minutes. They gave us freezers to put by the checkout, then had to
explain their function -- to hold customers' frozen food while
waiting. We laughed. Nobody waits longer than 10 minutes.

Now we have self-checkout. You scan your own. It's done with voice
prompts, animation and touch-screen. Tendering (payment) is especially
slick automation. It accepts bills, coins, credit and debit cards.
Wait time is usually zero.

>mom-and-pop stores
>
>I still do.

We too have towns like that. They're promoted as tourist attractions
on polished Web pages. The locals are a bit corrupted by the process.
They're now selling overpriced crafts and $3 cups of latte to the
yuppies.

docdwarf@panix.com

2004-12-15, 3:55 pm

In article <WsHud.6320$ZP5.2363@fe40.usenetserver.com>,
LX-i <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote:
>docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
>
>I don't believe, your highness, that she's ever claimed to be a
>compassionate conservative. She's more of a "tell-it-like-it-is"
>conservative.

I'm not sure what is intended by that; what was reported was that she has
told is her desire to see people die without benefit of trial or sentence.

DD

Robert Wagner

2004-12-15, 3:55 pm

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:32:23 -0600, LX-i <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote:

>Robert Wagner wrote:
>
>You can easily observe looks before you buy. However, I think you'd get
>some strange looks from the produce manager if you sampled taste before
>you bought. :)

The Fresh Market has 40 stores throughout the South, including one in
Montgomery on Eastern Blvd. (or East Blvd, depending on which road
signs you read). It's a yuppie 'supermarket' that sells premium
produce, bakery, deli and wine items. You won't find a five pound bag
of sugar there; they sell only items with a high gross profit percent.

Given that price is no object, one would think they'd at least have
good produce .. or bread. Nope, it's all show and little substance.

A Southern Season, in Chapel Hill NC, has 59K square feet of gourmet
food. It's one of the largest in the US. It too is all show and little
substance. For instance, it has dozens of hot sauces but doesn't have
the best-seller in Texas: Louisiana brand. It has lots of high-priced
peanut butter but doesn't have the winner: Better Than Peanut Butter,
which is made from peanut meal. It has soy sauces but doesn't have the
best: Angostura. It has orange marmelade, but doesn't have Wilkins.

It's obvious the buyer looks only at profit and knows nothing of
taste. What about customers? If they looked beyond show, the store
would no longer be in business.

Pete Dashwood

2004-12-15, 3:55 pm

"Robert Wagner" <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote in message
news:f1dnr0tcejbcmgpr0fnmgu5igrhoc8k76i@
4ax.com...
> On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:32:23 -0600, LX-i <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>
> The Fresh Market has 40 stores throughout the South, including one in
> Montgomery on Eastern Blvd. (or East Blvd, depending on which road
> signs you read). It's a yuppie 'supermarket' that sells premium
> produce, bakery, deli and wine items. You won't find a five pound bag
> of sugar there; they sell only items with a high gross profit percent.
>
> Given that price is no object, one would think they'd at least have
> good produce .. or bread. Nope, it's all show and little substance.
>
> A Southern Season, in Chapel Hill NC, has 59K square feet of gourmet
> food. It's one of the largest in the US. It too is all show and little
> substance. For instance, it has dozens of hot sauces but doesn't have
> the best-seller in Texas: Louisiana brand. It has lots of high-priced
> peanut butter but doesn't have the winner: Better Than Peanut Butter,
> which is made from peanut meal. It has soy sauces but doesn't have the
> best: Angostura. It has orange marmelade, but doesn't have Wilkins.
>
> It's obvious the buyer looks only at profit and knows nothing of
> taste. What about customers? If they looked beyond show, the store
> would no longer be in business.
>
Read your posts on this with interest, Robert.

Daniel's point is fair. You cannot go tasting goods before you buy them
(unless there is a very enlightened store manager who realises you will be a
good customer, and these are not likely to be found in major supermarkets.)

Obviously, as I don't live in the US I can't go and check out the stores you
mentioned above. (Man! How I would love to... <G> )

Nevetheless, I'm sure there are elements of truth in what you say and "show"
is probably a prime consideration in retailing.

But did you ever consider that all the things you describe as "best" are
only so to you? It is a subjective judgement. That doesn't make it invalid,
but it does mean that you should accept it as such.

All too often you post here on the basis that the "world according to
Wagner" is the only possible reality.

It isn't. I am interested in the "world according to Wagner" because I think
you have some very valid underlying points to make and your posts are
usually interesting. But time and again you simply can't seem to qualify
what you say. It leads to some strong reactions. I guess, if your purpose is
simply to cause a reaction then it is a winning strategy for you <G>, but
I'd hope that isn't so...

So, where DO you obtain the products that you consider "best"?

Pete.

Robert Wagner

2004-12-15, 3:55 pm

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 17:55:57 +1300, "Pete Dashwood"
<dashwood@enternet.co.nz> wrote:

>
>"Robert Wagner" <spamblocker-robert@wagner.net> wrote in message
> news:f1dnr0tcejbcmgpr0fnmgu5igrhoc8k76i@
4ax.com...

>It isn't. I am interested in the "world according to Wagner" because I think
>you have some very valid underlying points to make and your posts are
>usually interesting. But time and again you simply can't seem to qualify
>what you say. It leads to some strong reactions. I guess, if your purpose is
>simply to cause a reaction then it is a winning strategy for you <G>, but
>I'd hope that isn't so...

If my goal had been to evoke a strong reaction (from U.K. types), I
would have mentioned Marmite. The few jars at Southern Season looked
like they'd been on the shelf for years, and weren't categorized with
spreads. Or Bird's Custard Powder. Or Talisker Scotch, from the Isle
of Skye.

Down the street from Southern Season, a Harris-Teeter supermarket
sells bread from Nancy Silverton's La Brea Bakery. What's wrong with
this picture?

>So, where DO you obtain the products that you consider "best"?

Where they are produced:

Bread: Acme, Oakland, Ca
Beer (stout): Cookerstown Brewery, NY and Red Hook, Seattle
Pizza: Grimaldi's and Tottono's, Brooklyn
Beignets: Cafe du Monde, New Orleans
Cherries: High Rolls, NM
Lemons: Oxnard, Ca
Cantaloupes: Pecos, Texas

LX-i

2004-12-15, 3:55 pm

docdwarf@panix.com wrote:
> In article <WsHud.6320$ZP5.2363@fe40.usenetserver.com>,
> LX-i <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> I'm not sure what is intended by that; what was reported was that she has
> told is her desire to see people die without benefit of trial or sentence.

And you ascribed to that view the label "compassionate conservatism", a
label that she herself has not ascribed to it. That's what I meant.
Now, if W had said that, you might have a point - *he's* the one who
purports to be compassionate.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \ / ~ Live from Montgomery, AL! ~
~ / \/ o ~ ~
~ / /\ - | ~ LXi0007@Netscape.net ~
~ _____ / \ | ~ http://www.knology.net/~mopsmom/daniel ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ I do not read e-mail at the above address ~
~ Please see website if you wish to contact me privately ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e ~
~ h---- r+++ z++++ ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

LX-i

2004-12-15, 3:55 pm

Robert Wagner wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:32:23 -0600, LX-i <lxi0007@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> The Fresh Market has 40 stores throughout the South, including one in
> Montgomery on Eastern Blvd. (or East Blvd, depending on which road
> signs you read). It's a yuppie 'supermarket' that sells premium
> produce, bakery, deli and wine items. You won't find a five pound bag
> of sugar there; they sell only items with a high gross profit percent.

I went with my stepmother-in-law in Greenville, SC one time. It was
showy, but it was also pricey. :)

> It's obvious the buyer looks only at profit and knows nothing of
> taste. What about customers? If they looked beyond show, the store
> would no longer be in business.

Where do you recommend going for better produce - some place like a
farmer's market?

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ / \ / ~ Live from Montgomery, AL! ~
~ / \/ o ~ ~
~ / /\ - | ~ LXi0007@Netscape.net ~
~ _____ / \ | ~ http://www.knology.net/~mopsmom/daniel ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ I do not read e-mail at the above address ~
~ Please see website if you wish to contact me privately ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ GEEKCODE 3.12 GCS/IT d s-:+ a C++ L++ E--- W++ N++ o? K- w$ ~
~ !O M-- V PS+ PE++ Y? !PGP t+ 5? X+ R* tv b+ DI++ D+ G- e ~
~ h---- r+++ z++++ ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

James J. Gavan

2004-12-15, 3:55 pm

Robert Wagner wrote:

>If my goal had been to evoke a strong reaction (from U.K. types), I
>would have mentioned Marmite. The few jars at Southern Season looked
>like they'd been on the shelf for years, and weren't categorized with
>spreads. Or Bird's Custard Powder. Or Talisker Scotch, from the Isle
>of Skye.
>
>
>
Rather looks like the Marmite may well have been on the shelf for
sometime. Sadly here, Calgary, using the Pareto 80-20 rule, they keep
discreetly deleting items, until the retailer, if he follows Pareto's
logic, finds himself with no product looking up his ass ! Same as
Marmite there's Vegemite from Kraft and Bovril (the paste version) from
God knows who.

Reading recent copies of the 'W

ly Express' (for ex-pats), It becomes
really difficult to know who owns what in the UK of the favourite brands
one grew up with. That's that commercial obsession to grow, otherwise
you will die - so many US companies have grabbed whole chunks of UK
brand names. Probably got it wrong but Bird's Custard Powder is now
owned by Kraft - quite a possibility they may kill it off, along with
two ancillary products Dream Whip, Something....Topping. A stalwart,
Branston Pickle (chutney family), is a possible loser. Eccles cakes -
the original firm making them no longer makes Eccles cakes - but I buy
them regularly here, baked in Calgary. (Before you ask, flaky pastry and
centred with a few raisins, currants and a little spice - nutmeg/allspice).

Remember me and my dairy company Unigate - doesn't exist any more. Way
after I left they dabbled on the Continent producing dairy products,
sort of different versions of yogurts, desserts etc. Anyway complete
business sold off to a new company called Uniq. There were I gather,
three major dairy distributors supplying to supermarkets, one being
Dairy Crest. For whatever reason, Uniq sold off the "St. Ivel" brand
name to Dairy Crest. ( BTW "Ivel" is a play on "Yeovil" the Somerset
town where Aplin and Barrett first introduced the name with St. Ivel
Lactic Cheese and St. Ivel spreads (fish, chick